We Need To Talk About Hell

[newreno_3]

I was watching Event Horizon the other day, and it got me thinking...

If you've not seen it let me fill you in, warning some spoilers await! The film is about a space ship, the Event Horizon, which has the ability the travel between two points in space instantly, via a wormhole. However it vanishes on its maiden voyage, and reappears years later, sans crew. Then a crew go to investigate and ghostly evil going ons ensue. Dr Weir, who built the Event Horizon and is with the investigation crew, is the only one who knows that the Event Horizon knows that the ship actually goes into another dimension when it travels to this other point in space (if it actually goes there). With me so far? I'm not explaning it so well.

Anyway I found out that the film got an NC-17 certificate in the states, which I've heard is the 'kiss of death' of a film in American (I don't know what an NC-17 film is!) so to attain an R rating he had to cut a fair bit of footage. Most of the footage concerned is footage that refer to this other dimension as hell. I suppose I wanted to know why Americans, or at least American sensors are so scared of people viewing images or concepts of hell?

For the record the film never once states that the ship goes to hell, but take into account Dr Weir's obsession of getting back to his wife who committed suicide and the sanatic style death orgy that the crew find on the ships log would seem to suggest this, even though all other references had been removed.

I noticed they did this with the movie Doom, the game was all about hell coming into our world, but in the film it was refered to merely 'another dimension'. So why do all these references to hell have to be removed? I am aware that America is one of the most religious countries in the world, but as the states prides itself upon free speech i find it weird that it had to protect people from this kinda thing.

What do you guys think?

[wetman]

Maybe it's not about 'hell' as such, more about not wanting to upset any religious fraction with such a concept. The Westboro Baptist people could start picketing in front of the cinema. Who'd want that?

[malus_infantia]

Also, the subject of hell itself is a tricky one. As wetman notes, it may be part of not wanting to upset any religious faction; and part of creating that upset would be providing a visual representation to the world and saying "This is Hell". Furthermore, the hell of various religion's follows some set of rules or consistencies, for example some sects of christendom believe that if you have been saved by Jesus, then you cannot go to hell, as such, any character in a movie that at any point during his or her life has been saved -couldn't- go to hell. Most religious texts remain mum on salvation and the possibility of going to hellish dimensions though.

Keep in mind that the MPAA is also extremely prudish, and NC-17 is essentially a guarantee of failing in the box office (assuming it can even get a major release). An R rating is far more desirable than NC-17, so a lot of film makers will find themselves in a position of sacrificing content for the more marketable rating.

[wetman]

...

a lot of film makers will find themselves in a position of sacrificing content for the more marketable rating.

I find that some producers will sacrifice everything for marketability. Content, quality, truth; you name it. But I digress, sorry.

[malus_infantia]

I find that some producers will sacrifice everything for marketability. Content, quality, truth; you name it.

QFT

[BBB]

I find that some producers will sacrifice everything for marketability. Content, quality, truth; you name it. But I digress, sorry.

So, in the case of Event Horizon, it was screened to an audience, and they didn't like the gore content, so it was dialed back. That happened twice.

They certainly did it in the name of marketability.

[sarah_ab]

hell had noothing to do with the rating constantine and what dreams may come are two movies that come to mind immediately dealig with hell.... nc -17 means that no one under the age of 18 can see the film in theaters period where as an R rating means under 18 with an adult can see it ... its about sex and violence in regards to ratings

[newreno_3]

Yes this is quite true, I have noticed that some films relating to hell do get released. Devils Advocate is another one, but what I want to know that in the films containing heavy sex and/or violence the aspects of hell are also removed. Doom, whilst awful, was a violent action movie but also had its hell lowered to the status of 'another dimension'. So its not hell as such that offends sensors, but a mix of violence and sex too. This is an intriguing wrinkle.

Also may I ask how many people find this subject offensive, I had a lot of aggressive messages from people on this subject. (But not on this site)

[drynot]

I must admit that I would love to have seen the directors cut of `Event Horizon`. I think that may have been quite different from the theatrical release...

[newreno_3]

I would love to see it too! I had a guy who told me this film had nothing to do with hell, but was all about oxygen starvation, and was particularly nasty about me infering that it had.

[Diaper Mike 05]

NC-17 (No Children 17 and Under admitted) is given to movies that are appropriate for adult audiences only, regardless of what the movie itself is about. Something in it had to be inappropriate in some way (not just sexually or violent) that it was deemed inappropriate for an audience of teenagers and younger to see.

[wetman]

NC-17 (No Children 17 and Under admitted) is given to movies that are appropriate for adult audiences only, regardless of what the movie itself is about. Something in it had to be inappropriate in some way (not just sexually or violent) that it was deemed inappropriate for an audience of teenagers and younger to see.

That's too much of a 'sheeple' answer, I think. You just take that, because it was decided by someone, it must be correct and don't want to know why?

It's like being stopped by a policeman, and he writes out a ticket and you accept it without wanting to know if he booked you for broken taillights or speeding or cutting someone's right of way.

Get curious, man!

[Diaper Mike 05]

I haven't seen the uncut version to know exactly why it originally had an NC-17 rating, LOL. If I had, I might have more insight into it. The idea of Hell itself wouldn't warrant an NC-17 rating unless there is very high levels of violence, torture depicted in extreme ways, or hardcore sex scenes.

But my answer was to give the OP more insight to how general the NC-17 rating truly is. It'd be better if they went to some proposal I read about replacing NC-17 with A or X, depending on pornographic (X) or violence/subject/whatever else (A). At least that would give a clue as to what caused the NC-17 rating.

[lilJester]

I just find it funny with all the stuff in all the slasher flicks and all the hellraiser movies, let aloe Devils Advocate that stuff in event horizon would push for an nc17 rating. NC 17 is jsut no kids allowed at all even with a parent which personally, i think thats how it should be with all R movies too. I mean seriously, when i saw SAW 3D (saw 7) opening night there were kids around 8 years and younger int eh theater in the middle of the night.....GREAT FRICKIN PARENTING!

[newreno_3]

I gotta say I had no idea that kids could see an R rated movie with an adult. In the uk we only have 18 and 15, which you gotta be over that age to see, with an adult or not, and 12a which is over 12 unless accompanied by an adult.

diapcrow makes an excellent point! One which should be brought up. There are films on the subject of hell, Devils Advocate, Constantine and What Dreams May Come all passed without a cut. As for Hellraiser, I'm not sure, that was a number of years ago. It does seem that films that are gory horror and concerning hell seem to get their references cut, at least over the last ten years. Lets shift our focus onto Doom, the awful video game adaptation. We all know the story of Doom (more prominant in Doom 3), the movie is not that violent, or there is no sexual scenes, its all a rather generic action film. But the writers were told not to base the story on hell, or a hell dimension, instead they had to swap it to a virus that was turning people to monsters. So why the worry of people seeing a horror/action film based around hell?

I don't want people to get to angry about this, i'm just curious to the nature of certain types of censorship, I posted this exact thing on another forum and have nothing but abuse.

[gah!ghost]

I'd also like to point out that Event Horizon isn't really about hell. It's about an alternate dimension which humans call "hell" because it's the closest name to what it is they can come up with. Doom and Hellraiser are pretty similar in that respect. I just find those concepts a lot more interesting because it's easer for me to buy into. Hellraiser in particular in it's portrayal of this mathematical cold and violent world that's completely inhospitable to humans is very interesting.

Back on the subject of censorship in regard to "hell" I do know though, that at least initially, Hellboy had a lot of trouble as a film being marketed just because of the name. I think the name may have even been changed for some non-US markets. One of my biggest pet peeves in terms of specifically religious censorship is on US television "God damnit" will be censored as "

[Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover]

The proposed NC-17 rating has or at least had very little to do with the references to "hell" on their own. In general, if you have a lot of violence, sex, and anything that can remotely be construed as a religious reference, it's usually a recipe for an NC-17 rating. The more gruesome the violence is, and the more a depiction of a hell like atmosphere resembles a religious depiction of hell, the more likely a film is to receive an NC-17 rating if there's also sexually provocative material and swearing in the film.

"Director's/Special Edition" DVD releases exist for several reasons--one is to avoid a "rating" on the cut in the extended material. My guess is that "Event Horizon" likely has such a release in the states, but I could be wrong.

To understand why and NC-17 rating is a "kiss of death" for a film, you have to understand what it replaced. The old MPAA ratings system had an "X" rating that was intended for films that were too strong for an "R" rating. The creation of the "X" rating itself was a result of a change in policy from just banning films that were too strong for an "R" rating. What happened was that the "X" rating was quickly poached by the porn industry, and an "X" rating became synonymous with porn, even if the "X" was assigned for violence. As a result of this, the MPAA dropped the "X" rating entirely and replaced it with the "NC-17" rating, hoping that it would allow content creators to do movies that were "darker" without the stigma of an "X" rating. In reality what happened was that the stigma of the "X" rating just carried over to the new "NC-17" rating. NC-17 became synonymous with X among the general public, and the only thing the MPAA did was add three characters to a rating no one wanted.

Also, it's worth noting that the entire MPAA ratings system is voluntary. Yes, you read that right, the ratings system used by the MPAA is voluntary. However, if a film lacks a rating from the MPAA, (most) movie theaters won't screen it. A movie theater can chose to enforce or ignore the MPAA ratings system, but most theaters choose to enforce it knowing that if they don't enforce the voluntary rating system, it will be replaced with a mandatory one.

At one point in time the US actually did have a mandatory rating system. There was a group called The Legion of Decency, which was headed by the United States Postmaster General. Films were rated as either "A," "B," or "C," with an "A" rating being a desirable, family friendly rating, a "B" rating being less desirable, and a "C" rating being analogous to R/X/NC-17. Children who were caught in "C" rated films could be expelled from school. The Legion of Decency and its moral majority agenda didn't play well though, and the MPAA ratings system ultimately replaced it.

The MPAA itself has seen several changes over the years. The early MPAA rating system essentially consisted of the following ratings, "G," "PG," and "R." Note the similarity to the old Legion of Decency's system. In an effort to make the system clearer, "PG-13," and "X" were added, and the latter was replaced with "NC-17" for reasons previously mentioned. The ratings themselves change every so often, and they usually allow more violence/sex into a rating that previously disallowed it by public request. In 2006, the MPAA did some research and found that more teens wanted to see violence and swearing that was typically reserved for "R" rated movies. The research also showed that parents weren't opposed to additional violence or swearing within reason, so much as they were opposed to being dragged to see "R" rated films by their 16 year olds. The MPAA's solution was to allow a little more violence and swearing into the PG-13 rating, and to rate films that previously would have received an "R" rating with a PG-13 rating instead. Additionally, films that previously received a "G" rating were bumped up to a "PG" rating if they contained mild swearing, in part because more children wanted to see PG rated films, and the parents didn't object to the occasional "shit," or "damn" being uttered by the characters in the films that they took their older children to see.

It's also worth noting that the MPAA always tends to be a bit more prudish then the average moviegoer, in part because their goal is to err on the side of caution. If something is violent enough to receive an "R" rating, but could probably pass with a PG-13 rating, they'll give the film an "R" rating. Filmmakers can ask why their film received a specific rating, alter it, and resubmit it for a new rating, and that happens more then most people might think. "Unrated editions" are frequently the original cut of the film that would have received an undesirable rating.

[newreno_3]

I have had some interesting responsed all in all about this subject, all rather fasinating I must say, at least you guys have been nice I've had angry threats made against me on fetlife. I must rather like to think as hell as hell, not as another dimension, although that is just personal preferance, I do rather like all the history and horror behind it. By the way Dante's Inferno is a great little book all about hell to read I very much recommend it.

Hope no one is too offended about anything that has been said, just like to state i'm not a satanist who thinks he's getting a raw deal or anything!

[Honu]

You could always start your own film company and make movies the way you want to since you don't like the way they are made now. For all the challenges, we at least enjoy the freedom to start businesses and create intellectual property and even have it protected! The intentions of the MPAA are well meaning and are not required or supported by any law or regulation. Your frustration is evident in your writing, but it has nothing to do with the Government of the United States and rather than complain, why not do something about it?

[gah!ghost]

I have had some interesting responsed all in all about this subject, all rather fasinating I must say, at least you guys have been nice I've had angry threats made against me on fetlife. I must rather like to think as hell as hell, not as another dimension, although that is just personal preferance, I do rather like all the history and horror behind it. By the way Dante's Inferno is a great little book all about hell to read I very much recommend it.

Hope no one is too offended about anything that has been said, just like to state i'm not a satanist who thinks he's getting a raw deal or anything!

Well Satanists don't believe in hell, they're just atheists in disguise.

On the subject of some of the things DD/ML said, the whole existence of PG-13 is a thorn in my side and is an excellent example of how money and power have more to do with what rating you get then what the content of your film is. PG-13 was created because Stephen Spielberg pressured the MPAA to create it so he could skirt getting an R rating for Temple of Doom. If you ask me there should be two ratings. G and R. General Audiences and Restricted to Adults. All the other ratings are just ways to make adult oriented films but still allow kids to get in to see them to make more money.

And the MPAA system is voluntary only that it's not. As you point out, if you opt out of submitting it basically means you can't make any money so it isn't an option, it just has the appearance of being one.

Sorry, the MPAA just drives me nuts.

[newreno_3]

You could always start your own film company and make movies the way you want to since you don't like the way they are made now. For all the challenges, we at least enjoy the freedom to start businesses and create intellectual property and even have it protected! The intentions of the MPAA are well meaning and are not required or supported by any law or regulation. Your frustration is evident in your writing, but it has nothing to do with the Government of the United States and rather than complain, why not do something about it?

Well its not as easy as that sadly. I've written about hell before, nothing too heavy. No, it has nothing to do with the Govenment, or really the ratings board, it falls finally to the studio exes, who for some reason are uneasy about people seeing this kinda stuff. I just wondered why, if anyone had an answer for me. Turns out I've got one big answer from this, and all you need to do is read through all the replies from people I've had about this subject. That is why.

For the record though. Drag Me To Hell. Horror and a movie about hell. (Sorta)

[Guest *~Andi~*]

wow....