Pupils Start School Still In Nappies

[freswith]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/5956231/Pupils-start-school-still-in-nappies.html

...."Phone Conversation" becomes true?

[hidden]

sounds like depends needs to make smaller sizes since baby diapers are getting too good...

[dave_the_baby]

My nephew Daniel didn't start potty training until after two. Somehow it didn't make sense to expect him to train before that age, even to me.

I used to think Europeans were, in general, much smarter than us. But I guess not.

[zdravo]

I was still in nappies when i started school. I had a lot of issues when i was younger and i did not start potty training until quite a few years after. and i never stopped wetting the bed. I blame it on my parents. Caused me a lot of problems. Probably why i still like them now

[DprDJeff]

I used to think Europeans were, in general, much smarter than us. But I guess not.

That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while.

The fact is, studies and tests are biased. Some countries use official languages that are much easier to learn than English and thus students tend to do better in school. With the use of contractions and words with multiple meanings, English is by far the hardest primary language to learn. This gives any English speaking country a disadvantage. Also, when comparing ability scores from country to country the people doing the studies have to take information compiled in those countries at face value. It is well known that many countries lie about such things to make themselves look better.

Another fallacy is that students today are not as intelligent as students from the past. The problem with that statement is that there is much more to learn today than there was fifty years ago. Technology and scientific advances have opened up a plethora of information that today's students are expected to learn in the same time frame their grandparents had to learn half as much.

Not sure why I went on a rant here. It's just one of those things that irks me. LOL

[Guest lucys junibug]

well i also think health professionals are responsible too.....the advice is don't train till at least 3 even if there doing well put potty away and wait.....with them visiting your house you feel like you have to do what they say...

i think just go with your child its not too early to start even if it takes a while put don't push too much as they tend to dislike that sort of fuss

i know of schools who will take children in nappy's but you have to pay for someone to change them or come in yourself, the only other way is to have them statemented....which is hard even if under specialist...

some children won't get there ever....some take longer and have problems that they need help with....and some...well we know a child who would be ok if the diet was changed....

and there are some who just don't care if they are wet!

[chargers_girl]

It doesn't really surprise me that kids are going to school in diapers. Parents have been brainwahed by the diaper companies and the supposely experts on child development to delay potty training their kids until the child is ready. What does the experts think is going to happen? Kids have been in diapers all their lives. Do they think kids are going to want to give them up on their own? As to what you said Lucy. Wouldn't that money come from the taxes parents pay that goes to schools? The ones I feel bad about is the teachers and the teacher's assistants. Changing diapers is part of their job description.

[Angela Bauer]

Let's face it, there is a world of difference between The London Times and The Telegraph of the UK as far as credibility. The story quoted is a prime example.

Okay, so the daughter had delayed toilet learning but was day dry at 60 months. That is hardly the end of the world. Okay so the same girl still wets her bed at age 7. So do about 7% of girls that age. Even kids age 7 without a history of delayed toilet learning can and do have day wetting accidents. My suggestion to all those directly involved is to learn to spell enuresis and take a chill pill.

Where do the reporters get the nonsense that when a kid has delayed toilet learning this means the parents are not correctly teaching? Sure, in 1950 and even in 1960 in the cloth diaper era mainstream parenting "experts" felt this was the fault of parents. Back just after WWII Ben J. Spock, MD, wrote "Baby and Child Care" in which he took a realistic approach that toilet learning could only happen once the body and the mind of the child was ready.

Enuresis is an especially frustrating aspect of urinary incontinence. Since 1990 there have been many important advances in the field of urology, yet there is still much more unknown that known. Given there can be 1,000 potential causes of any particular form of incontinence, no handful of treatments will work most of the time.

People here have gotten the message I have been sharing since 1990 when I first joined DPF and was asked about childhood incontinence. I agree with the majority of qualified experts who strongly suggest girls as young as 50 months and boys of 60 months can be taught to change their own pull-ups. It is very important for the future mental health of kids that they take a maximum of responsibility for their incontinence as soon as possible. Of course this hardly means letting children that young pin on cloth diapers. That would be insane and risky.

It was hardly Kimberly Clark Corporation (Huggies and GoodNites) or P&G (Pampers, Baby Dry, Luvs and UnderJams) who created delayed toilet learning. They did the research to provide the larger sizes and kinds of products parents and children need. In DD we agree that pull-ups are not an ideal diaper for significant wetting by an ABDL. When worn by children in the size range indicated on the packages all the major manufacturer products have appropriate capacity. Remember young skin is delicate so even dry diapers must be changed within 8 hours during the day and 10 hours at night. By the way, the same is true for adult products worn by incontinent folks. Diapers need to be changed. Real IC life is not ABDL!

The laws, traditions and thnking about education differ from the UK to USA. Here in the USA everyone in school administration has a personal view about how to accomodate students with special needs. A few months ago the relative of a special ed teacher blasted me about this here in DD. Policies differ and that teacher could well be correct for her school and the relative who is a member here misunderstood. My background is different in that not only have I been licensed as an attorney for 21 years, I served for 8 years on the school board of my city. It is not easy to expect every second grade classroom teacher to put teaching a class on pause to take one kid elsewhere for a diaper change. No law requires that type of accommodation. If a child of 7 still needs help changing his or her own diaper, there could be physical limitations or learning issues. Those, not the diapers, might require a special class.

Bottom line is that DD is hardly a mainstream forum for serious parenting discussing. At the end of the day the Telegraph of the UK story was simplistic and sensational.

[Guest lucys junibug]

As to what you said Lucy. Wouldn't that money come from the taxes parents pay that goes to schools?

it only comes from taxes if you get a medical statement...and teachers aren't trained in changing children, one will be trained or hired after the statement.

a lot of teachers wouldn't mind changing them but legally they aren't allowed.....

my name is juniper or juni, i know my names a lil confusing and it happens quite a lot so its ok,i'm thinking of changing my name to stop confusion......

juniper

xxx

[freswith]

Let's face it, there is a world of difference between The London Times and The Telegraph of the UK as far as credibility. The story quoted is a prime example.

At the end of the day the Telegraph of the UK story was simplistic and sensational.

I think you have got this a bit wrong; There may be a world of difference. The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch, and while it is still a quality paper, it is certainly not the authority it was, and is known to reflect Mr Murdoch's views on suitable occasion. The Telegraph is also a quality paper, no less than the Times, but of a more Conservative slant. Neither of them could be described as sensationalist red-tops, although it should be remembered that this is the traditional "silly season" when such stories are surfaced in the absence of more important news.

I think the message is that disposable nappies have become much more comfortable, and give less sensation of wetness to the wearer; that recommendations about toilet training being delayed for psychological reasons are having a long-term effect, with the result that children are wearing nappies for much longer, and this is starting to give schools a problem.

Curiously, I have noticed recently that it is much less common to hear children crying in public. I have commented on this to others of my age-group and they agree, and put it down to better parenting and more contentment. It may be due in part to the more comfortable nappies, but also to the modern custom of reasoning with children and generally discussing things with them. Our generation was seen, but not heard, and expected to put up and shut up.

I think the implication for us stems from the common experience of most diaper lovers; that nappies were worn, or we were obliged to resume them, long after the establishment of long term memories at about age two. This suggests that delayed toilet-training might produce a diaper-lover in later life. I would like to see some research into the age-profile of DD membership as against some general board such as Facebook; I suspect it would show there is an enhanced number of DLs in the younger age-groups reflecting the increasing fashion for later toilet-training. The article would suggest this trend is likely to increase. (The future is ours!)

Coming from the DL background myself, I would have a different point of view to Angela, who comes from the incontinent-family background. Likewise the true adult baby may be trying to replace a lack of affection in childhood, or a wish to return to a more secure time. We are a broad church.

Let the debate continue!

[ArtemisEnterri]

That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while.

The fact is, studies and tests are biased. Some countries use official languages that are much easier to learn than English and thus students tend to do better in school. With the use of contractions and words with multiple meanings, English is by far the hardest primary language to learn. This gives any English speaking country a disadvantage. Also, when comparing ability scores from country to country the people doing the studies have to take information compiled in those countries at face value. It is well known that many countries lie about such things to make themselves look better.

Another fallacy is that students today are not as intelligent as students from the past. The problem with that statement is that there is much more to learn today than there was fifty years ago. Technology and scientific advances have opened up a plethora of information that today's students are expected to learn in the same time frame their grandparents had to learn half as much.

Not sure why I went on a rant here. It's just one of those things that irks me. LOL

Jeff,

That is only partly true. While there may be more information to be taught than in the past, there are some subjects/concepts being taught less now than in the past (or are not even being taught at all anymore). Try this 8th Grade Final Exam from Salinas, Kansas in 1895 and see if you can answer all the questions on it WITHOUT using any form of assistance (electronic - computer, calculator, etc - or books). I know I can't answer some of the questions.

Because of the invention of calculators and computers, FEWER people use their brains for math activities (like keeping track of totals - or discount percentages - while shopping) or for remembering information ("why remember it when I can google it?"), etc... So I agree, that WE (the population of Earth) have allowed ourselves to be "dumbed down" because of our electronic "assistance" devices.

[DiaperBigBoy]

Can I start school in diapers? I want a nurse to change me

[freswith]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203803/Children-wearing-nappies-school-parents-busy-potty-train.html;jsessionid=E2A825987F66DBA68568ADE955B0EF13

The Daily Mail (which is a tabloid rag - unlike the Telegraph) has picked up the story now, with a raft of reader's comments. Most-voted letters say how foolish the mother was to reveal her daughter's secret.

(Please confine any comments you may wish to make to this forum; if the Daily Mail becomes aware of this forum in the middle of the "silly season" they are quite likely to fill a page or two with moral panic/witchhunt, and it wouldn't do us any good at all!)

[Nat]

It doesn't really surprise me that kids are going to school in diapers. Parents have been brainwahed by the diaper companies and the supposely experts on child development to delay potty training their kids until the child is ready. What does the experts think is going to happen? Kids have been in diapers all their lives. Do they think kids are going to want to give them up on their own? As to what you said Lucy. Wouldn't that money come from the taxes parents pay that goes to schools? The ones I feel bad about is the teachers and the teacher's assistants. Changing diapers is part of their job description.

I stopped wearing on my own when I was 3. So some kids do decide to quit wearing on their own.

[baby-dandan]

My mom almost had me potty trained at 20 months old. At 21 months old I they found out I had a brain tumor after that everything kinda went down hill from there. I had to learn to walk again, and my potty training had to start all over again. As a result of that I had accidents late into my childhood. At school I had to have my mom bring me an extra pair of underwear and pants on more than one occasion. This continued into second grade. I would have liked to have been diapered during those years, but unfortunately my mom saw things differently.

[BabyBat]

Because of the invention of calculators and computers, FEWER people use their brains for math activities (like keeping track of totals - or discount percentages - while shopping) or for remembering information ("why remember it when I can google it?"), etc... So I agree, that WE (the population of Earth) have allowed ourselves to be "dumbed down" because of our electronic "assistance" devices.

I was originally going to reply but thought that this could spiral WAY off topic so I decided to start a new thread.

Atremis (and others) please see my reply here: Education Vs Society - Then And Now

[freswith]

The matter has been discussed in a ten-minute discussion on BBC Radion 4 Womans hour. It is available for the next few days on:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk...our_05_08_2009/

22 mins 45 secs into the program.

It appears that this campaign is being driven by a charitable website called ERIC (Education and Resources for Improving Childhood Continence):

http://www.eric.org.uk/