How much does muscle memory lead to diaper dependency?

[Goerge]

I mean if I wet at the slightest urge without sphincter reflex and I continue to do this (which is very easy for me) Would this lead to automatic peeing over time?

[~Brian~]

@Goerge

4 hours ago, Goerge said:

I mean if I wet at the slightest urge without sphincter reflex and I continue to do this (which is very easy for me) Would this lead to automatic peeing over time?

If you're talking about urging and the way the sphincter operates, I would assume that after a while, your sphincter will get used to the fact that it will release when you feel the need. part of potty training means that you're trying to learn to hold, and if you're constantly wearing diapers using them 24/7, eventually your body is going to learn that it doesn't have to hold. overtime, your holding reflex will probably diminish to the fact that you won't have any control at all. this is part of the deal when you're wearing diapers 24/7, and it's also part of what you give up when you make that decision or when you don't have that Ability to hold.

I think you have it right on the money:  Your sphincter muscle is going to contract and expand based on what happens, but overtime, your sphincter will calm down and it probably won't be able to hold back something if you really have to go. several times I've had to go myself, and it's like counting to three, and then only getting to two and it's already done! eventually you won't even know What it feels like to be able to hold, or you'll have to concentrate in order to make it happen. when you have full continents and control, you don't have to think about holding it, because your body will help you hold. when you have to go really bad however, your holds are going to diminish , and you will release When your body feels like and not when you have control of it!

Brian

[oznl]

So far (coming up for 4 years in), I can semi-automatically pee my nappy during the day but I can stop it for a while if I think about it.  I wouldn't call myself incontinent but I'm VERY good at wetting myself.  It happens all the time with very little thought and I don't need to pause whatever I'm doing.

At night however, I have reverted to part-time bedwetting and I definitely believe that my adoption of the practice you describe as driven this.  The times where I've caught myself bedwetting it's been not that  long after falling asleep and my bladder wouldn't have been that full.  It's just as though my body continued my daytime practice unconsciously overnight.  I now NEED night nappies even though there are still nights where my use of them is deliberate.

It may be that I progress to some kind of daytime incontinence during year #5 - at this stage I intend to find out.

[Kif]

10 hours ago, Goerge said:

I mean if I wet at the slightest urge without sphincter reflex and I continue to do this (which is very easy for me) Would this lead to automatic peeing over time?

Depends on what you mean by automatic. 

If you mean being a complete spectator to the whims of your external urinary sphincter and unable to stop it from happening at all times, I'd say no. Even with everything that has happened with me, I still can *choose* to not let it start at least some of the time.

But in the practical sense? Yes.

Often I was wet and didn't realize it had happened. When I needed to retrain I found I couldn't stop it once it started. And since I'd been peeing in so many circumstances, just about everything (but especially running water or even the urge to pee itself) also brought on such a strong urge to pee that I couldn't prevent it from starting in those circumstances. With those two combined, I do not trust myself to leave the house without wearing heavy diapering on. And I look forward to returning to diapers again, because being out of them is a huuuuge annoyance. (check out my thread for more on all that)

[babykeiff]

On 11/25/2022 at 6:40 PM, Goerge said:

I mean if I wet at the slightest urge without sphincter reflex and I continue to do this (which is very easy for me) Would this lead to automatic peeing over time?

Muscle memory is a misnomor - as muscles do not have memory. What you are referring to is habitual behaviour - where your subcontious is triggering the relevant processes based on inputs from nerves without directly telling your contious mind.

You ask 'without sphincter reflex' - what are you exactly talking about - is it, I presume, that when you feel the urge to wet, you do not clamp down and just relax? or is it something else. If it is that you are consciously relaxing on any urge, this will become habit, and then eventually become autonomic - i.e. your subcontious mind will stop telling you of your need to void and just void.

As @oznl and @Kif have both stated and also encounter, they void without knowing it, or with little warning. They both presume that they can intervene to stop the wetting - in reality, due to lack of muscle tone, they cannot - their bladder once it starts the process of voiding, their sphincters are really too weak to be able to stop the flow.

This is how habits are formed, repeating the same process and ignoring the result. This is also how we learn to perform a task, using the following processes -

• Unconscious Incompetence
  • This is where we focus on each and every muscle movement, make mistakes and need to refer to instructions to identify and correct each mistake. We are clumsy and each act is deliberate.
• Conscious Incompetence
  • This is where the muscle movement is becoming smooth, and the skill level is being improved. We are still a bit clumsy, but the process is now in memory so we do not need to refer to the instruction to carry out the task.
• Conscious Competence
  • We loose the clumsyness and become more adapt at the task. We still make mistakes, but are aware of the mistakes as we make them.
• Unconscious Competence
  • We are carrying out the task without even thinking. We almost forget how we are doing the task, and if we think about the task, we can't really explain / teach it to another without missing key events.

As an example of this, try and describe how you walk! If you look at another learning to walk, there is a lot of individual skills that person has to master before being able to walk, yet as adults, most of us can walk with ease. However, trying to break that down into a series of instructions is beyond most peoples understanding and ability.

The real answer is that the details and monotony are being handled by our subconscious mind where the overview is only being given to our constious mind if it is important. Similar is occuring with diaper usage - the mind is reverting to the pre toilet trained behaviour - something it knows and trusts.

@~Brian~, has stated that the sphincters will become relaxed. That is slightly incorrect. The sphincters behaviour does not change that much - but it is the instructions to the sphincters that will change. Your subconscious is still controlling the sphincters, but your goals have changed. No longer is the goal about keeping your pants dry - but it has reverted to keeping you comfortable and conserving energy. As a result, any pressue within the bladder / bowels will be avoided and you will revert to voiding similar to that of a pre toilet trained baby.

For some, they have encountered quivering sphincters. This is the body trying to learn what is best for it and nothing to be concerned about. In relation to infection etc., it is best for the body to keep all openings closed as to avoid bacteria etc. sneaking in, and that includes the sphincters. As a result, your subconscious keeps the sphincters closed until wants to open it to empty the bladder / bowels. As a result, not only will you be constantly in a semi wet diaper, it will seem that you are voiding from multiple triggers - ie smells, movement etc. To avoid the chances of infection, diaper rash should be avoided at all costs as this creates an home and entry point for internal infections - so even wet diaper changes must include wiping the area down with a baby-wipe (at least) and also placing a layer of diaper cream (not powder) on the sensitive areas (folds in the skin).