OK I am a bit lost here.

[spark]

54 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

You are refering to paraeductors NOT paraprofessionals!

As a result, you are prefixing the word educator with the term para,

of which the definition is clear.

This topic is in relation to paraprofessionals, not para-whomever

You're trying to argue with me on semantics, which is stupid.  YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT.

FTR- I do.  I've done this for 20 years, and I don't suck at it

From my perspective, it's like a guy who has played Madden arguing with Tom Brady on offensive football schemes.

FTR-paraprofessional or paraeducators are both used.   I don't even realize when I use one over the other.  I prefer educator, but I refer to myself as an educator over a teacher.   In the field, and I refer to them as paras, 

To go back to the original post,  para-educators (professionals) really do change diapers, and they don't like it.

 

[babykeiff]

8 hours ago, spark said:

You're trying to argue with me on semantics, which is stupid.  YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT.

FTR- I do.  I've done this for 20 years, and I don't suck at it

From my perspective, it's like a guy who has played Madden arguing with Tom Brady on offensive football schemes.

FTR-paraprofessional or paraeducators are both used.   I don't even realize when I use one over the other.  I prefer educator, but I refer to myself as an educator over a teacher.   In the field, and I refer to them as paras, 

To go back to the original post,  para-educators (professionals) really do change diapers, and they don't like it.

 

Comments, arguments and belief like what @spark is stating, and that is why business/company management can assign this type of task to a para whatever! They couldn't assign that task to a professional, as if the professional decide not to do any task, that is where the business/company would suffer.

@spark seems to believe that a title defines respect. He may be right, but the para title is just a title, nothing else. Para, by all definitions is 'not qualified' 'not licesened' 'not held responsible' etc - the position of a junior / trainee where the title 'junior' / 'trainee' has been substituted by para, and someone from US legal can state where the loophole is in law.

The para title gives business/company almost the right to walk on that employee... and assigning them the task of changing diapers, let themselves be considered lucky - that due to the actions of many rights activists, a para is almost been treated as human. Why should a title determine respect! It really shouldn't. All the para title is is a way of enforcing discrimination and seperation / segregation. In germany, to avoid discrimination by title, each employee is referred to as engineer. Not para / junior / trainee / apprentice or whatever slur one choses to use... just engineer.

In my humble opinion, the para title is a replacement for the slave title!

[Personalias]

@spark  We got a troll, here.  So much intellectual dishonesty and goalpost moving.  I wouldn't bother replying, were I you and I've already hit the ignore button.

To everyone else engaging in good faith:

Speaking as a former educator myself who spent 8 out of 10 years in a position with a full time para, I get where you're coming from.

I had a para for several years who was pretty much my best work friend and my right hand.   I also had several caseloads where I had kids who needed diapers due to intellectual disabilities.  One of my paras was near the end of her career and didn't want to change diapers so she got moved to another classroom because frankly changing diapers was part of the job description for working in my classroom; and yes this applied to me as well.  Diapers need to be changed and children deserve access to the curriculum for free and no strings attached, potty trained or not, and it didn't make sense to have someone who's only job was changing diapers, so it just got tacked onto the job description.     

We had no school nurse, just a "clinic assistant" or some other title whose duties were calling parents when a kid threw up, letting a sick kid sleep in the and keeping a log of prescribed medication so that it was taken with fidelity and not stolen. Even if we had a school nurse, diaper changing visits wouldn't have been practical.  It's not a Rocket Manatee pick where you have an otherwise capable student laying on a changing table looking at their phone while their pants get pulled down for them. 

If a kid can change themselves, they are given supplies and materials and go off to a restroom and clean themselves up.  Kids who need their diapers changed are literally incapable of doing the job themselves.  Most have an inability to recognize when they need changing and require some form of adult supervision when traveling from location to location either because of mobility or behavior issues. (Wheelchair or walker bound, or just a tendency to wander off or lay on the ground if unsupervised).

So instead of taking a child (who may be as big as some adults depending on age and hormones) and walking them around campus to get their diaper changed or having a non-existent nurse leave the clinic unattended several times a day, it makes way more sense to have at least one adult within the classroom whose job it is to change diapers and make it an added responsibility.  

And I wholeheartedly agree; paras need and deserve more money for the services they provide.    After I quit teaching, my old classroom couldn't fill the vacancy that had been created and my para was left with a substitute teacher for an ENTIRE year.  She had to effectively do the job of a full time teacher using all the experience and tricks she had accumulated, including grading papers and entering them into the gradebook because there was no consistency with the substitute.  But she wasn't given a teacher's salary for all the extra work she was doing. 

The school saved money because neither subs nor paras are paid as much money as a fully accredited and licensed teacher, and if not for a court order might have tried to keep it that way.  Fucking shameful.

But as to the original posting: Yeah, I don't get it.  Barring a school that specializes in students with severe disabilities there can't be THAT many kids in a given school setting that require diaper changes to where diaper changing needs to be a contractual point.  Like...seriously...it's gross because being on the giving end of a diaper change tends to be gross...but be an adult about it.  I did and I have a master's degree. 

That might be the only part where we may disagree on.  I think paras in those positions should expect to change diapers, but teachers should, too.  I know I traded off on diaper duty with my para.  It was as simple as "I got this one" or "I got the last one".

 

[ValentinesStuff]

@Personalias

 

Thanks for the answer and explanation. I'm guessing that when I was in school, this position was called a "Teacher's Aide." 

[babykeiff]

This is could almost be comical if @Personalias and @spark weren't so deadly serious about how they treat the para's that report to them. Similar responses came from slave owners.... and I am a troll? I am the one who is trying to fight for better conditions for para's, but refuse to call these people some discriminatory title. @spark complains about a good para vs a bad para, and @Personalias supports these views - and then try to state what they are saying is not discrimination.

@ValentinesStuff, yes you are correct in that these people were called Teacher's Aide, but someone redefined not only their title, but also their responsibility. Without deeper research, I would hazard a guess that the reason that these people's title was changed was in relation to salary, benifits versus responsibility. A licenced professional is responsible for 'x' task, and paid accordingly. A Teachers Aide is a licenced and vetted position in most countries. A paraprofessional does not have to be licenced or even skilled. As a result, they are casual employees, treated as such and paid as little as their employer can get away with. If these paraprofessional's attempt to seek legal help, or union support, they are very quickly replaced.

It is a way for businesses / companies to hire the cheapest staff to do the work - and still skate just under the radar, so to speak.

[Personalias]

3 hours ago, ValentinesStuff said:

@Personalias

 

Thanks for the answer and explanation. I'm guessing that when I was in school, this position was called a "Teacher's Aide." 

Correct. Me too, I think.  It might still be called "Teacher's Aide" in some areas.  A lot of terms seem vary from region to region I've found, based on preferences.

[ValentinesStuff]

@babykeiff Teacher's Aides when I was in grade school, I don't remember any in Jr. High or High School, were not licensed or certified or anything. I'm pretty sure one was just some student's mom that came and helped out on a volunteer basis.

 

Current Para Professionals are issued a license.

https://www.isbe.net/Pages/paraprofessional-educator.aspx

 

@Personalias Oddly I was just looking up to see what the difference in requirements is and I found a local school district hiring Teacher's Aides with a HS diploma or GED and a promise to start working on a certification in the next 9-12 months. 

[Personalias]

3 minutes ago, ValentinesStuff said:

 

@Personalias Oddly I was just looking up to see what the difference in requirements is and I found a local school district hiring Teacher's Aides with a HS diploma or GED and a promise to start working on a certification in the next 9-12 months. 

That tracks, sadly.

[spark]

8 hours ago, ValentinesStuff said:

@Personalias

 

Thanks for the answer and explanation. I'm guessing that when I was in school, this position was called a "Teacher's Aide." 

They're almost interchangeable, because general education teachers tend to call them aide, and in we call them Paras.

If the aide was paid by the school district, they are represented by the same union as the paras and other non-certificated employers.   Chances are they were in the class to support students on IEP, even though you didn't know who had the IEP.   The paras won't highlight the kid they are assigned unless it is obvious when they are in the mainstream.  FTR- in education: certified means you have a credential.  Non-certified employees don't have credentials.   

 

BTW- I'm pretty sure there is a troll who is trying to derail this conversation.   I'm not sure why he got upset at me, but I think he needs a diaper over the part of his body that he is talking out of.

@Personalias thanks for the response.   Your powerpoint for Capcon was really good.

[diapered charles]

I have a friend that's a special education teacher for a middle school. She told me most of her students are in diapers and its the teachers responsibility to change them.

She's also one of the few people that know about my ABDL side. It came up during a discussion of kinks where she also confessed to wanting an adult nursing relationship. 

[babykeiff]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:44 PM, ValentinesStuff said:

@babykeiff Teacher's Aides when I was in grade school, I don't remember any in Jr. High or High School, were not licensed or certified or anything. I'm pretty sure one was just some student's mom that came and helped out on a volunteer basis.

 

Current Para Professionals are issued a license.

https://www.isbe.net/Pages/paraprofessional-educator.aspx

 

@Personalias Oddly I was just looking up to see what the difference in requirements is and I found a local school district hiring Teacher's Aides with a HS diploma or GED and a promise to start working on a certification in the next 9-12 months. 

@ValentinesStuff,

paraprofessionals don't need to have either a licence or a qualification to work. Teachers Aide need at least one of the two.

I can't recall the actual case that started the issue, but circa 1980, laws in relation to the rights and protection of the child changed. This forced 'above board' businesses to check and vet all staff where children were concerned. Other businesses created the 'para' concept as a way to skate around legal requirements and also hire extremely low paid staff. I do not not the full details of the legal requirements for a 'para' today, but from the comments of the two slave drivers plus the newspaper report, it would lead me to derive that the 'para' is still being treated as a second class / disposable person - which IS discrimination. It's definition specify that a para is unlicenceed and/or un qualified - which is the very definition of 'unskilled labour'.

What annoys me is that these two people, similar to all slave owners, think that they are 100% right for treating other human beings like this - and they dare to call me a troll for pointing out that one should not discriminate anyone.

Today, worldwide, most goverments / juristrictions are attempting to remove the 'casual / unskilled worker' not only to protect the workers rights, but also to protect the integrity of whatever trade is involved.

P.S. I can't seem to be able to find / connect to your link: www.isbe.net

The original post is reporting on a task (diaper changing children) being assigned to a casual / unskilled worker instead of the relevant skilled / licenceed worker. - The question we should be asking is WHY - why is the business assigning that task to staff and not dealing with the original issue - which is why is a child still in diapers in school etc. If this was a 'special educational school' it is the primary responsibility of that childs parents, firstly, and then a relevant skilled and licenceed healthcare worker to do this task for the child - not the responsibility of the school / business - that is unless the business is getting paid to do this.

@diapered charles

12 minutes ago, diapered charles said:

I have a friend that's a special education teacher for a middle school. She told me most of her students are in diapers and its the teachers responsibility to change them.

She's also one of the few people that know about my ABDL side. It came up during a discussion of kinks where she also confessed to wanting an adult nursing relationship. 

Again, although your friend is a 'special education teacher', her duties should not include diaper changing. There should be a medically trained and licenceed professional to do that task - who is experienced enough to know what cream / rash prevention etc is placed on the diaper dependant person. This is again, a school / business assigning a task to a member of staff rather than to the relevant skilled / licenceed person as a way of reducing spending / increasing self profit.

If your freind is changing the diaper on a student, she cannot be teaching the rest of the students - as a result, she is not fullfilling her original job - and technically can be fired for not doing her job.

[diapered charles]

10 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

@ValentinesStuff,

paraprofessionals don't need to have either a licence or a qualification to work. Teachers Aide need at least one of the two.

I can't recall the actual case that started the issue, but circa 1980, laws in relation to the rights and protection of the child changed. This forced 'above board' businesses to check and vet all staff where children were concerned. Other businesses created the 'para' concept as a way to skate around legal requirements and also hire extremely low paid staff. I do not not the full details of the legal requirements for a 'para' today, but from the comments of the two slave drivers plus the newspaper report, it would lead me to derive that the 'para' is still being treated as a second class / disposable person - which IS discrimination. It's definition specify that a para is unlicenceed and/or un qualified - which is the very definition of 'unskilled labour'.

What annoys me is that these two people, similar to all slave owners, think that they are 100% right for treating other human beings like this - and they dare to call me a troll for pointing out that one should not discriminate anyone.

Today, worldwide, most goverments / juristrictions are attempting to remove the 'casual / unskilled worker' not only to protect the workers rights, but also to protect the integrity of whatever trade is involved.

P.S. I can't seem to be able to find / connect to your link: www.isbe.net

The original post is reporting on a task (diaper changing children) being assigned to a casual / unskilled worker instead of the relevant skilled / licenceed worker. - The question we should be asking is WHY - why is the business assigning that task to staff and not dealing with the original issue - which is why is a child still in diapers in school etc. If this was a 'special educational school' it is the primary responsibility of that childs parents, firstly, and then a relevant skilled and licenceed healthcare worker to do this task for the child - not the responsibility of the school / business - that is unless the business is getting paid to do this.

@diapered charles

Again, although your friend is a 'special education teacher', her duties should not include diaper changing. There should be a medically trained and licenceed professional to do that task - who is experienced enough to know what cream / rash prevention etc is placed on the diaper dependant person. This is again, a school / business assigning a task to a member of staff rather than to the relevant skilled / licenceed person as a way of reducing spending / increasing self profit.

If your freind is changing the diaper on a student, she cannot be teaching the rest of the students - as a result, she is not fullfilling her original job - and technically can be fired for not doing her job.

Tell the NC school system. ?

[babykeiff]

11 minutes ago, diapered charles said:

Tell the NC school system. ?

It really is about peoples attidude - accepting extra responsibility without getting the extra money,  and when a problem occurs, it is the business/school etc that will place the employee in the fire. I would guess that the NC school system have denyability also.

Example:- a non skilled and/un-licenceed employee changes the diaper on a diaper dependant child - the child is harmed / dies from too much cream etc being placed on the child. The school / institution will find a way to 'not be responsible'. The poor 'unskilled & unlicenceed employee' will be facing charges of manslaughter via negligence and may spend a number of years in jail for his/her actions. Even if it is not manslaughter, they are actually practicing medicine (placing nappy cream etc. on a rash on a child / adult who is not their child / relation) without a licence.

This is the situation for a number of 'unskilled/unlicenceed' workers, where it is a lot better for them to be unemployed - and the schools etc., along with two members here, are happy to place these people in that situation on a daily basis.

In legal presedence terms, if one instructs another to kill, both the killer, and the person who gave the killer the instructions are guilty of murder. Similar exists with a professional instructing a para-professional to complete a task. The school / business, will have, within their policies etc., denyability - which leaves both the professional and the paraprofessional facing charges when  any complication occurs.

 

[ValentinesStuff]

2 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

@ValentinesStuff,

paraprofessionals don't need to have either a licence or a qualification to work. Teachers Aide need at least one of the two.

 

Where I live, that is ABSOLUTELY incorrect. Para professionals have to scored at least a 460 on the Para Professional qualification test, whereupon they receive a license. 

 

Sorry about the link, try this one: 

https://www.roe9.k12.il.us/page/paraprofessional-license-information

 

Quote

PARAPROFESSIONAL LICENSE INFORMATION

Paraprofessional information is located here on the ISBE website

Requirements:

• At least 19 years of age to serve students in prekindergarten through grade 12.

• Beginning January 1, 2023, you may qualify for the ELS-Paraprofessional license by meeting the requirements outlined below at age 18 but only may serve in prekindergarten through grade 8.

• One of the following required:

  • Associate’s degree or higher

  • 60 semester hours of coursework

  • High School Diploma or GED and a score of 460 or higher on the ETS Parapro

  • High School Diploma or GED and the following scores on the ACT Workkeys:

    • Applied Mathematics/Applied Math (with a score of 4)

    • Reading for information/Workplace Documents (with a score of 4)

Years Valid: 5

Limitations: Must work under the direct supervision of a licensed teacher

Renewable? May be renewed with payment of registration fees

Notes: 

• If you hold a Paraprofessional License and have a Bachelor’s Degree on file, you are qualified to be a substitute teacher.

• Coursework must be at the 100-level or higher from a regionally accredited college or university.

• View Substitute and Paraprofessional License Checklist

 

Here's a local ad:

 

Quote

Teacher Aide

 

SAVE

 

C

Champaign County

Urbana, IL

Apply on ZipRecruiter

Apply on Salary.com

 

 

 

 

24 days ago

Full-time

Health insurance

Dental insurance

Job highlights

Identified by Google from the original job post

Qualifications • Must provide proof of a high school diploma or equivalency certificate (GED) • Unless already possessing a CDA (Child Development Associate Credential) or degree, within three months of hire, the new employee must begin the process to obtain a CDA credential within 9 to 12 months of employment start date or be enrolled in a program leading to an associate or baccalaureate degree program and making reasonable progress each semester • Demonstrated exemplary attendance and dependability is required • Must meet all requirements of Illinois Department of Children and Family Services • Ability to lift children up to 60 pounds in an emergency

Responsibilities • The Teacher Aide assists the classroom teacher(s) with providing a developmentally appropriate educational program to meet the individual needs of each child, and promote good communication between the Head Start program, parents, and the community Benefits • Starting Hourly Wage: $13.72 • Competitive benefits, health insurance, dental insurance, retirement, tuition reimbursement, high quality programming (NAEYC Accredited) and great work environment!

So a local school district is hiring Teacher's Aides on the promise that the applicant will start working on the Accreditation, and here's one for a Paraprofessional (different district)

Quote

Paraprofessional - Northview Elementary School

 

SAVE

 

R

Rantoul City School District 137

Rantoul, IL

Apply on Glassdoor

 

 

 

 

 

22 days ago

Full-time

Job highlights

Identified by Google from the original job post

Qualifications • Must have a Para-professional certification (Must have 60 hours college course credits or have passed a State approved test granting Para-professional certification) • Possess strong communication skills (written and oral) • Live in or be familiar with the surrounding community • Be capable of physically assisting students with specials needs as required (positioning, lifting, transferring, restraining, etc.) • Must have, or be willing to obtain Therapeutic Crisis Intervention Training Certification based on need • Have demonstrated ability to work effectively under the direction of others • Ability to use physical restraint on students, when absolutely necessary (requires training) • Ability to communicate effectively with parents, students, teachers, administration and community members • Ability to maintain emotional control under stress • Ability to use e-mail and office equipment effectively • Ability to work with students individually or in group settings • Generally the job requires 20% sitting, 40% walking, and 40% standing

Responsibilities • To assist the teacher in achieving teaching objectives by working with individual students, small groups, or whole classrooms to help students achieve the skill levels of the class as a whole • To provide a well-organized, smoothly functioning class environment in which students can take full advantage of the instructional program and available resource materials • Support the Mission Statement of the district • Behave and speak in a professional manner at all times • Set a good example in terms of dress, punctuality, and attendance • Be proactive in matters relating to health and safety • Staff member will effectively perform the following duties in a timely manner: • Administer, score, and record such achievement and diagnostic tests as the teacher • Work with individual students or small groups of students to reinforce learning of material or skills initially introduced by the teacher • This could include assessing student work or assessments/progress monitoring • Assist the teacher in devising special strategies for reinforcing material or skills based on a sympathetic understanding of individual students, their needs, interests, and abilities • Help students master equipment or instructional materials assigned by the teacher • Guide independent study, enrichment work, and remedial work set up and assigned by the teacher • Assist with the supervision of students during duties (i.e. recess, lunch, arrival and dismissal) and other situations such as emergency drills, assemblies, play periods, and field trips • Assist with such large group activities as drill work, reading aloud, and story telling • Read to students, listen to students read, and participate in other forms of oral communication with students • Check notebooks, correct papers, and supervise testing and make-up work as assigned by the teacher • Assists students in and out of wheelchairs; transporting students in their wheelchairs in and around school and on field trips for the purpose of ensuring the student gets to and from school and to the proper places safely • Assist with medical needs, such as diabetic students, after training by a health care provider has been provided, for the purposes of meeting immediate health care needs • Assist in tending to children’s daily living activities (toileting, diapering, washing, etc) • Applies and removes physical therapy appliances as instructed (e.g. body braces, leg braces, etc) for the purpose of ensuring the student has the proper equipment according to the IEP plan • Assists students by enabling them to access their electronic communicators, switches, pointers, feeders, etc. for the purpose of ensuring equipment is hooked up properly and functioning properly • Teach socially acceptable behavior, employing techniques such as behavior modification and positive reinforcement • Model and facilitate positive behavior and interactions between students and teacher as well as between students • Alert the regular teacher to any problem or special information about an individual student • Serve as the chief source of information and help to any substitute teacher assigned in the absence of the regular teacher • Maintain the same high level of ethical behavior and confidentiality of information about students as is expected of fully licensed teachers • Participate in inservice training programs as assigned • Other responsibilities as assigned by supervisor • Outdoor schoolyard and grounds, field trips: exposure to temperatures (hot, warm, cool & cold) and exposure to mowed grass • Regular work attendance

So the Teacher's Aide requires a promise to get certified, and the Paraprofessional requires certification beforehand. Note the highlighted duties.

[diapered charles]

14 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

It really is about peoples attidude - accepting extra responsibility without getting the extra money,  and when a problem occurs, it is the business/school etc that will place the employee in the fire. I would guess that the NC school system have denyability also.

Example:- a non skilled and/un-licenceed employee changes the diaper on a diaper dependant child - the child is harmed / dies from too much cream etc being placed on the child. The school / institution will find a way to 'not be responsible'. The poor 'unskilled & unlicenceed employee' will be facing charges of manslaughter via negligence and may spend a number of years in jail for his/her actions. Even if it is not manslaughter, they are actually practicing medicine (placing nappy cream etc. on a rash on a child / adult who is not their child / relation) without a licence.

This is the situation for a number of 'unskilled/unlicenceed' workers, where it is a lot better for them to be unemployed - and the schools etc., along with two members here, are happy to place these people in that situation on a daily basis.

In legal presedence terms, if one instructs another to kill, both the killer, and the person who gave the killer the instructions are guilty of murder. Similar exists with a professional instructing a para-professional to complete a task. The school / business, will have, within their policies etc., denyability - which leaves both the professional and the paraprofessional facing charges when  any complication occurs.

 

You already know everything. There's no reason for me to explain how wrong you are. Nothing good can come from continuing this discussion. Have a good day!

[babykeiff]

2 hours ago, ValentinesStuff said:

Where I live, that is ABSOLUTELY incorrect. Para professionals have to scored at least a 460 on the Para Professional qualification test, whereupon they receive a license. 

 

Sorry about the link, try this one: 

https://www.roe9.k12.il.us/page/paraprofessional-license-information

 

 

Here's a local ad:

 

So a local school district is hiring Teacher's Aides on the promise that the applicant will start working on the Accreditation, and here's one for a Paraprofessional (different district)

So the Teacher's Aide requires a promise to get certified, and the Paraprofessional requires certification beforehand. Note the highlighted duties.

So, where you live, paraprofessionals are required to be licenced.

As that is the case there, why, do you think, would @Personalias and @spark be so dismissive about these people? Is it part of their career path for these people, under their licence requirement, to need to change diapers? If one is training / qualified to be a Geriatric Nurse, Infant Child Care or a Special Education Support Person etc., yes it would be understood that diaper changing may be part of their job - and similar to all jobs, there usually is something within that role that may not be on the advertisements, but for a business to assign that role to people who's duties were never anywhere related to that task is in simple terms, unfair and changing the terms and conditions of the role.

I have also read the required duties in the job application - which in most of Europe, would be merging two positions into one role - as a teacher / teachers assistant AND a day care nurse. In the most of Europe, the actions of day care nurse would be a seperate and highly skilled position, which might include diapering, feeding etc.... but these people would be acting on the written direction of a MD, not the verbal / written instructions of a teacher. As each child's medical treatment / support would be under medical control, a MD qualification of some form would be required to 'support' that child - and the only exception is a parent / relative. Even they would be trained in the administration of medical devices (and diapers in this stage would be considered a medical device).

I have just noticed the salary rate you listed @$13.72 / hour, for school hours. 9am - 3pm (average) x 5/6 days x 52 weeks = $21k - $22k p.a. A nurse / someone with an actual medical qualification salary roughly starts at €55k p.a. plus. That para-profession advertisement is $33k-$53k pa, which is less than the $55k+ of a medically qualified person.

RGN Salary Ranges :-

• Europe, €55k - €63k pa.
• Austrialia $76k - $98k pa

Special Care Nurses :-

• Europe €61k - €102k
• Austrailia $95k - $159k

One can rougly equate US$1 = €1 = Aus$1. Compare that to the paraprofessional advertisement, and the paraprofessional is being grosly underpaid - for doing two jobs!

@diapered charles

2 hours ago, diapered charles said:

You already know everything. There's no reason for me to explain how wrong you are. Nothing good can come from continuing this discussion. Have a good day!

  You claim that the issue is within the NC School system. I stated that the issue is worldwide, and you percieve that I know everything! Is that not a little bit dismissive? Are you trying to state the North Carolina School System is such a unique system that is so different across the world. I did not know that North Carolina was not part of USA and/or part of the world - it is that unique! ?

[babykeiff]

@ValentinesStuff, I don't see why you are confused, other than at what @diapered charles stated! It confuses me.

Salary ranges are available worldwide based on roughly the same role.

A teachers aid / assistant role would be to assist a teacher. In a special needs class, it would be to give the relevant students the extra assistance needed so that the student could participate within the actions of a class - assisting if/when any associated electronic device failed to work (i.e. their computer where it would be used to communicate / take notes). A teachers aide would never touch any medical device - ie feeding tube etc., and if an issue occured with same, woudl contact the Special Care Nurse / School Nurse.

A Special Care Nurse' role would be to follow the medical instructions of a doctor, and where s/he would be in a special needs class, to assist the student where the student needs in feeding, diapering, applying / removing relevant medical devices such as leg braces etc.. This nurse would not only be trained in the proper use of same, but also be available to intervene in specific emergency medicine as required for a special needs student. This nurse would also have a direct contact to a doctor, where the doctor would be on-call during the school hours, to assist in/direct emergency care as needed. As a result, the special needs child would have full medical care and support during the time the special needs child is on the school premises.

These two roles are seperate and distinct, and not joined in the title 'paraprofessional'.

I object to the creation of the role of paraprofessional cause it attepts to join two individual roles, and expertise, into one. You stated that you remember the 'Teachers Aide' position. I would also presume that the role of 'School Nurse' also existed in the US at that time.

Across the world (1975-1985), due to the reduced funding being given to 'special needs schools', a large proportion of 'special needs children' where sent to the public school system thus overloading the 'School Nurse'. Add to that the increase of young childrent (5-7 year olds) still needing diapers during the day, and the extra workload of the School Nurse in changing said children, some schools created the an intermediate role to cover the extra demand. It seems to me that this 'intermediate role' has replaced both the School Nurse and Teachers Aide positions.

In Europe, (post 1985) this has reversed to some extent where the School Nurse has been replaced by 'Special Needs Nurse' and the intermediate role has been recreated as 'Teaching Assistant'. Also, class sizes have dropped from an average of 40+ children per class to 15-20 children per class.

It seems that only in the US, the intermediate role of ParaProfessional still exists.

 

[spark]

5 hours ago, diapered charles said:

I have a friend that's a special education teacher for a middle school. She told me most of her students are in diapers and its the teachers responsibility to change them.

She's also one of the few people that know about my ABDL side. It came up during a discussion of kinks where she also confessed to wanting an adult nursing relationship. 

She has to be mod/severe.    In most of the mod/severe classes, it's a 1:1 ratio of adults to kids, but sometimes people are out.  In that case, they do what needs to be done

 

8 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

@ValentinesStuff, I don't see why you are confused, other than at what @diapered charles stated!

WORD SALAD

There is no part of that response that is accurate.   I'm confused why you have an opinion on something that you know so little about.

There is no such thing as a Special Care Nurse

The only people in education who have the salary range that you are mentioning are administrators.   I'm not even sure where you came with that, because the only hit I had on Google was Special Care Nursery, which would have an RN attached to it.  FTR- an RN attached to a nursery with that level of specialized training does get the salary range that you mentioned, BUT they are not employees of a school district.

This whole kerfuffle is 100% due to the fact that you have NO idea what a paraeducator is.  You think you do, and your inability to admit that you were confused about it has caused a big-time derail.

FTR- there are kids who wear diapers in public schools.  Most are severely handicapped.   One of the job duties of a para-educator is to change diapers of students who need those services, and they do receive some training before doing that.   It is not typically part of a teacher's job duty, and they put themselves at risk if they do and there is a complaint.  My union would not allow it, and I would be in violation if I helped out.

There are some states that don't have as strong of unions, and it is possible that it would be considered part of the teachers' duty.  Most likely, it is vaguely worded, and the teacher risks their job by not performing the duty, and also risks their job if a parent files a complaint.

[Personalias]

1 hour ago, spark said:

She has to be mod/severe.    In most of the mod/severe classes, it's a 1:1 ratio of adults to kids, but sometimes people are out.  In that case, they do what needs to be done

 

There is no part of that response that is accurate.   I'm confused why you have an opinion on something that you know so little about.

There is no such thing as a Special Care Nurse

The only people in education who have the salary range that you are mentioning are administrators.   I'm not even sure where you came with that, because the only hit I had on Google was Special Care Nursery, which would have an RN attached to it.  FTR- an RN attached to a nursery with that level of specialized training does get the salary range that you mentioned, BUT they are not employees of a school district.

This whole kerfuffle is 100% due to the fact that you have NO idea what a paraeducator is.  You think you do, and your inability to admit that you were confused about it has caused a big-time derail.

FTR- there are kids who wear diapers in public schools.  Most are severely handicapped.   One of the job duties of a para-educator is to change diapers of students who need those services, and they do receive some training before doing that.   It is not typically part of a teacher's job duty, and they put themselves at risk if they do and there is a complaint.  My union would not allow it, and I would be in violation if I helped out.

There are some states that don't have as strong of unions, and it is possible that it would be considered part of the teachers' duty.  Most likely, it is vaguely worded, and the teacher risks their job by not performing the duty, and also risks their job if a parent files a complaint.

Pretty much all of this.

[babykeiff]

2 hours ago, spark said:

lies and junk based on ignorance

https://www.provocollege.edu/blog/highest-paying-nursing-categories/

... or are you again going to deny that these people actually exist - and that the treatment that you inflict by treating 'paraprofessionals' as slaves is correct!!!!!!

Salaries are $70k pa to $202k pa as opposed to what the US parapprofessional gets paid of $55k pa.

[spark]

3 hours ago, babykeiff said:

https://www.provocollege.edu/blog/highest-paying-nursing-categories/

... or are you again going to deny that these people actually exist - and that the treatment that you inflict by treating 'paraprofessionals' as slaves is correct!!!!!!

Salaries are $70k pa to $202k pa as opposed to what the US paraprofessional gets paid of $55k pa.

You really don't have a clue, do you? That's more than what I get, and I'm a 20-year teacher.  The high end is more than my principal, and our school has 3,000 kids.

1st of all, Paraprofessionals WISH they could get $55k, and that's in San Francisco.   They might top out at $40k in SF Bay, LA, or NYC (which I believe have the best teacher salaries around).  FTR- MOST states aren't paying experienced teachers $55k.  That's just below our starting wage for a teacher.  SO yes, Paraeducators are extremely underpaid, which I said in the very beginning.

2nd of all, I never doubted the salary range of RNs.  They have a very difficult job, and in my experience do it well.  NONE of those that were listed are in education.   FTR- school nurses are on the district salary schedule, and are slightly higher than teachers.    However- and this is big, however, there is 1 per every 5,000 students.   Districts don't pay for them to do procedures, and they damn sure don't pay for them to change diapers.   If there is a very specialized procedure, then yes- the school nurse does it.   

What you proposing is absurd, because every single Mod/Severe would need an RN assigned to it at a salary that is more than what the Vice-Principals are getting (on par with principals) when that level of experience is almost ever needed.  If that is your desire, EVERYBODY'S property taxes will have to triple (At least) to cover the expense.

[Nat]

I assume this is for special needs students? The times I grew up in special ed, only very few students wore diapers. Those who are incontinent and mobile will change themselves, not want a teacher do it. In high school, there was only one girl in my high school who wore them and teachers changed her, even my aide changed her too but she was in a wheelchair. When I was in a self contained class, only the school nurse changed this girl in my class, the teachers never did it so that meant this girl would be in a soiled diaper until the school nurse came. 

[babykeiff]

8 hours ago, spark said:

You really don't have a clue, do you? That's more than what I get, and I'm a 20-year teacher.  The high end is more than my principal, and our school has 3,000 kids.

1st of all, Paraprofessionals WISH they could get $55k, and that's in San Francisco.   They might top out at $40k in SF Bay, LA, or NYC (which I believe have the best teacher salaries around).  FTR- MOST states aren't paying experienced teachers $55k.  That's just below our starting wage for a teacher.  SO yes, Paraeducators are extremely underpaid, which I said in the very beginning.

2nd of all, I never doubted the salary range of RNs.  They have a very difficult job, and in my experience do it well.  NONE of those that were listed are in education.   FTR- school nurses are on the district salary schedule, and are slightly higher than teachers.    However- and this is big, however, there is 1 per every 5,000 students.   Districts don't pay for them to do procedures, and they damn sure don't pay for them to change diapers.   If there is a very specialized procedure, then yes- the school nurse does it.   

What you proposing is absurd, because every single Mod/Severe would need an RN assigned to it at a salary that is more than what the Vice-Principals are getting (on par with principals) when that level of experience is almost ever needed.  If that is your desire, EVERYBODY'S property taxes will have to triple (At least) to cover the expense.

Worldwide, teachers (you call yourself educators) are being paid those type of salaries. In your little corner of the world, jobs are being eliminated and being replaced as 'jack of all trades'... being underpaid.

What I stated originally -

On 12/3/2022 at 10:19 PM, babykeiff said:

This, to me, seems like a case of finding another task to pass onto a minimum paid worker - that is if even this employee is getting paid. Some of these people are clased as 'interns' and therfore not getting paid. A paraprofessional is really a term for an unskilled member of staff. These people are the 'trainee' and/or 'apprentice' to a specific skillset. The only difference between a paraprofessional and a professional is that the para- has not yet got their licence or full qualification.

This type of 'passing the job to a trainee' rather than have the 'licence holder' and/or 'qualified person' perform the task is a way of business' handling the tasks required without exposing themselves to discriminatory and/or unfair work condition cases from people who can easily afford legal actions.

... which you, as the self claimed expert, said I do not know what I am talking about!

@ValentinesStuff identifies that the paraprofessional IS licenceed.

Worldwide, we 'take care' of our needy and young, and spend the money to do so. It is obvious, that some bean counter in the US has reduced the funding to such an extent that education is a joke.

@spark states that to cover this, everyones taxes would need to increase. In most countries worldwide, health services are partially to fully funded. In the US, it is not. In most countries worldwide, unemployment payments are covered - forever almost. In the US, a few weeks might be covered. In most countries, goverment provide housing. In the US, this is limited to a few states. YET - the tax system in most countries is in the 20%-40% of income. Where is the 10-37% tax going of the 331 million US citizens? The US is paying 12% on defence - incase Russia invades.... when a small country like Ukraine is keeping Russia at bay!

Considering what came out of Trump / comes out of Biden's mouth, it would probably be better to increase spending on education!!!!   

 

[Personalias]

8 hours ago, Nat said:

I assume this is for special needs students? 

Short version: You are correct.

[spark]

14 hours ago, babykeiff said:

Worldwide, teachers (you call yourself educators) are being paid those type of salaries. In your little corner of the world, jobs are being eliminated and being replaced as 'jack of all trades'... being underpaid

What?  Where are you pulling this information?  I looked up the average salary of a teacher in Finland, which is recognized as the best education system in the world.  It said €44,846, which is a little over $47k.   That's what I was paid at my charter school, which was far under the going rate for teachers in California.   FTR- the top step in my district is more than double that.

FTR- Luxemburg has the highest.  The USA average salary is on par with France, Netherlands, and Mexico(?-I'm surprise), but is below Germany, Austria, Korea, and Luxemburg.  https://www.chalk.com/resources/most-least-paid-teachers-in-world/

However, those numbers a skewed by which state you teach at.  California and New York (especially in the biggest cities) are on par with the top tier.   Mississippi is on par with Finland:  

I don't know what you mean by jobs being eliminated by underpaid "Jack of all Trades."   FTR-there are so few qualified special education teachers out there that the interview process for special education teachers is: (hyperbole alert) Do you have a credential?  Do your fingerprints pass?  Are you breathing?  Here are your keys.

I like that little snide comment about being a self-proclaimed expert, which I guess in this format I am.   You have no way to verify that I really have a Mild/Moderate Education Specialist Credential and have 20 years of experience in Special Education.   You also have no way to verify that I'm currently sitting in a wet diaper, sucking on a pacifier, and watching football.  You have to take my word for it, but both of those things are true.  It's not something that you would brag about without merit.  Nobody has been charged with stolen valor for claiming to be a 20-year veteran of special education, (nor sitting in a wet diaper while watching football ?).

You obviously have some sort of agenda.   FTR- I generally agree with you on principle.  Paraeducators are extremely underpaid   I think the salaries that they are paid is criminal.  Especially because District-level (not site-level) administrators are grossly over-paid.  Education is underfunded, and defense is overfunded.  You could have chosen to make me an ally, and help you.  Instead, you choose to make it adversarial and accuse me of being a slave master.  That's a little offensive to me- for some reason, and then state things (without a source) that are factually inaccurate to support your point.  FTR- stating inaccurate facts ultimately hurts your agenda and doesn't help it.