Trying to become urine incontinent

[ppdude]

@babykeiff-- Wow!!! You must be a medical professional If not, then it appears that you have way too much time on your hands (or other bodily fluids?)...

 

[babykeiff]

13 hours ago, ppdude said:

@babykeiff-- Wow!!! You must be a medical professional If not, then it appears that you have way too much time on your hands (or other bodily fluids?)...

 

? .... hiding, so won't answer that one!

[PuraVidaDip]

On 9/25/2022 at 8:14 PM, babykeiff said:

@FretaBWet you are close, and your parents may not have wanted to infantilize you, but the diaper changing unintentionally did. You were changed into a night diaper from birth until you were 4/5. It was expected of you to wet the bed - so diapers were put on you, and it was kept to be 'your secret - between you parent(s) and yourself'. I presume that the reason that your parents stopped diapering you for bed is when you started going to playschool / kindergarden etc hoping that treating you as a 'big boy/girl' might get you to stop bed wetting. However, you had become comfortable wetting your night diapers - and were already an ABDL, but without the 'A'.

Side question -

 

... what broke you of the habit, if you don't mind answering?

I stated that curing bed wetting is easy. I omitted to state that it is even easier to muck it up... and it is how and when one was toilet trained that causes the issue, not the actual bed wetting per-say. It is the extremly rare person that do not go through a phase of (secondary noturnal enuresis) bedwetting at some time in their childhood. However, it is even rarer for a bedwetter to not be, in some way interested / attached to ABDL.   

 

Toilet Training, at what age, and why is it taking longer and longer each generation...

Babies born after 1940/45 diapers were covered by a plastic pant of some form. As as result, you got used to being in a wet diaper, and trying to train you out of that habit was difficult. Babies born prior to 1940/45 were changed very quickly after they wet / messed AS there were no diaper covers to speak about. Yes, there were knitted ones etc, but a knitted on stops some wetness, but needs to be washed also - increased laundry considering when a baby wets, s/he wets his/her diaper, all his/her clothes and whatever the baby is sitting / lying on. Diaper covers etc were only used when the baby was 'out' at a function etc. Nighttime, a wet diaper = wet sleeper, cot, bedclothes etc.

As a result, most babies prior to 1945 were trained within 10-14 months of birth (as soon as they really could walk, some even earlier). Plastic pants etc contain wetness - so careers clothes / furniture etc does not get wet, so the baby gets used to being wet, and then indifferent about it. All this does is decrease the drive for a baby to not be in wet diapers etc. The  disposable 'stay dry' diaper decreases the drive so much, that some babies are in diapers up to 12-14 (and some here even older ? ). 

• Babies born 2016+ generation, (5-6 year old today) 30%-50% on the class starting school are still dependent on diapers. Toilet trained age 5 / 6+ year old.

Babies diapers changed from tape on to mainly pull on. As a result, actual toilet training is now more difficult as the child does not 'know' s/he is wearing a pull up diaper or a pull up underwear. To address this issue, diaper manufacturers created a limited run of 'wet feel' / training pull-ups. It seems that the accountants of these firms stopped the production of same - as it would cause the 'customer - baby' to dry up faster and earlier = a reduction in profit.  

• Babies born 2006+ generation, 5%-15% on the class starting school are still dependent on diapers. Toilet trained age 4/5 year old.

Pull-up type diaper created (for bed wetting etc) - to fit the 'larger child'

• Babies born 1996+ generation, 0.5%-1.5% on the class starting school are still dependent on diapers. Toilet trained age 3/4 year old.

SAP used in disposable diapers etc.

• Babies born 1986+ generation, Toilet trained age 2/3 year old.

Disposable diapers became 'stay dry and thicker'

• Babies born 1976+ generation, Toilet trained age 20 mth / 2.5 years old

Disposable diaper invented and used instead of cloth

• Babies born 1966+ generation, Toilet trained age 18 mth / 22 mth old.

Widespread use of washing machines

• Babies born 1956+ generation, Toilet trained age 16 mth / 20 mth old.

Plastic pants introduced

• Babies born up to 1946+ generation, Toilet trained age 10 mths to 14 mths. Normally a baby was toilet trained before s/he reached age 1. This is also due to the labour involved in cloth diaper laundry. To reduce this, the baby was held over a potty, almost from birth, so s/he did not mess in his/her diaper. A diaper was only used overnight, and the baby used to be mostly naked. As a result, the baby got instant feedback from wetting etc.

Interesting theory and not sure what happened in olden days but potty training two kids since 2016 both were 2-3 when potty trained. I also volunteer in the schools (ages2-5) and can affirm the same with others. I doubt my demographic is special in any way due to the diversity in my area. Not sure where your facts come from but they aren’t accurate at all here. Here’s an article as a reference but my experience working with the actual subject at hand is all the proof I need. Surely there are many people in the small sample on this board with other experiences but that is the exception not the rule. 

https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/average-age-for-potty-training#readiness-signs

“Most children start working on this skill between 18 months and 3 years of age. The average age of potty training falls somewhere around 27 months.” 

[babykeiff]

8 hours ago, PuraVidaDip said:

Interesting theory and not sure what happened in olden days but potty training two kids since 2016 both were 2-3 when potty trained. I also volunteer in the schools (ages2-5) and can affirm the same with others. I doubt my demographic is special in any way due to the diversity in my area. Not sure where your facts come from but they aren’t accurate at all here. Here’s an article as a reference but my experience working with the actual subject at hand is all the proof I need. Surely there are many people in the small sample on this board with other experiences but that is the exception not the rule. 

https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/average-age-for-potty-training#readiness-signs

“Most children start working on this skill between 18 months and 3 years of age. The average age of potty training falls somewhere around 27 months.” 

Why the delay until 2-3 years of age? Your quote from healthline identifies that children start working on this skill at about 18. It never identifies why the child delays this as opposed to previous generations of children. It is NOT due to inability - and many child experts have discovered this simple fact 'a child will learn a skill in their own time based on certain criteria - with the major one being its own comfort / survival'.

The type of clothing that a child wears dictates how comfortable it is after it wets / messes. If the child is wearing a super absorbant diaper that is designed to keep the child dry and comfortable after the child has wet and messed in same, the child has no incentive to learn how not to wet and mess in diapers. However, if the child is wearing only a thin layer of cloth without any plastic backing, shortly after the child wets / messes in same, the child will start to get cold as the diaper, like any wet material, get cold very fast. Secondly, due to the behaviour of parents / careers of that time to hold their child over a potty inorder for the child not to mess in his/her diaper, ment that the child NEVER got used to pushing a mess into a diaper. As a result, the child was toilet trained prior to its ability to walk.

In the school(s) that you volunteer, a high proportion of children are trained by 2-3 year old. That, I suspect, is one of the requirements for entry into that school.

There are two concepts in the world, one which is factual, and the second, which is idealistic. It is this idealistic view that you seem to be seeing.

Premise 1 - Children self teach skills in their own order based on what they wish to achieve.

Premise 2 - Pull up type diapers / disposable diapers are designed to keep the child comfortable and dry after they have wet / messed said diaper.

Premise 3 - Both parents working = children being 'raised' by day care staff. Day care staff will not, without instruction, toilet train a child. Due to the staff:child ratio, (as opposed to parent : child ratio) are not attentive enough to notice the subtle changes in the actions of a child before it wets / messes its diapers.

Simple Conclusion: Children are not self inclined to 'learn' not to wet / mess in diapers.

Factual Result of above conclusion: Children are getting older and older while still needing diapers.

Fact : Manufactures of diapers etc are increasing the size range of diapers to suit the growing need. Consider this - it is very expensive to set up a production line - and for each 'larger size of diaper' a new production line is needed to be created. That is a huge capital investment, which only the insane would do without a known  return.

Fact: Diapers / Pull Ups etc are available - in baby / child designs, for up to 14-16 year olds.  These diapers have the inner leak gards (designed to contain mess).

This means that there IS a market for these products which equates to there is 14-16 year olds still wearing diapers AND wetting / messing in same.

Use Maths...

The worldwide baby diaper market is $800 billion dollars, and growing by 8-10% per year. The count of children 0-3 year old (your identified top figure) is 663 million.

Birth rate is dropping by 1 -2% per year, yet diaper sales is growing by 8-10% per year.

Formula: 

• Number of 0-3 year old children X count of diapers used per day X count of days per year = total diapers used in that year for 0-3 year olds.
• 663.11M (663,110,000) children X 5 diapers X 365 days =  1,210.175B (1,210,175,750,000)
• Total Diapers Used per 0-3 year olds X cost per diaper (amazon quotes Pampers Cruisers size 5 box of 128 to be €/$ 56.73 since 1 Euro = 1 US Dollar)
• 1,210.175B (1,210,175,750,000) X (56.73/128) = 536.35B (536,353,674,199)

This makes a shortfall in the market of (800B - 536.35B)  263.65 BILLION.

Now, cost this out,

Cost per 'pull-up' for 3+ year old = Size 7 or greater pull up type (Pampers Size 7 pull-ups €/$9.99 pack of 24 = 41c per diaper)

• Shortfall / cost per diaper = count of diapers used
• 263.65B / 0.41 = 571B (577,195,121,951)
• Count of diapers used / (Average 5 per day X days per year) = Count of people using diapers (past age 3)
• 571B (577,195,121,951) / 1825 = 316M (316,271,299)

With the count of children 0-3 in the world being approx 663 million (with a difference +/- 1-2% over the years), and the calculations of 316 million still using diapers past age 3, we can derive that approx 50% of all children will still be in diapers past the age of 3 today.

These rough calculations are based on using Pampers disposables. However, there is variances in this since some use cloth / other less expensive brands, which since price (dollar or euro) is the base figure we are using, the difference would be greater than 50%. Worldwinde conservative estimates that 75%-80% of children today sare still in diapers past the age of 5/6 full time, with this percentage slowly decreasing the older the child gets, to drop to about 25% by age 16.

[babykeiff]

@PuraVidaDip

What I have found on https://www.healthline.com/health/baby/diaper-size-chart is a baby diaper size chart. This chart lists two items that are very intersting -

1. How long baby will typically be in that size
2. Average age baby might use these diapers

Adding the total of 'How long baby will typically be in that size' =

a few weeks + 3 months + 2-4 months + up to a year + up to a year + as needed + as needed =

2 weeks (.5 months) + 3 months + 2-4 months (average = 3 months) + 12 months + 12 months equates to 30.5 months plus 'as needed' = approx 2.5 years.

HOWEVER, the next column states

0 to 4 months , 3 - 8 months , 5-24 months , 18 - 36 months, 2 -3 years, 3-4 years.

This leads one to take from this chart that Size 6 diapers for >35 lbs are for 3-4 years old babies, yet  on the same site, the average age of potty training falls somewhere around 27 months.

3 years = 36 months. 4 years - 48 months.

This proves that https://www.healthline.com/health/baby/diaper-size-chart#disposable-diapers contradicts https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/average-age-for-potty-training#readiness-signs

Also, there are size 7 and size 8 diapers plus pull up type diapers that fit up to and including 16 year olds. All these 'diapers' have inner leak guards which sole purpose is to contain mess. This equates to 16 year old babies are still messing in their diapers, and www.healthline.com, your source, is contradictory at best.

[uk_DL]

babykeiff. Please could you explain why you made this statement?  Is there a reason why when you start out to have timed chnages?  I have seen that on a couple of posts.

So you dont change from the night diapr until mid-morning, but surely by then it will be full and leaking?

Quote

To reinforce this, use a clock and only change at certain times - ie mid morning change out of your night diaper, mid evening change into a night diaper. Therefore you will only be using tweo types of diaper - a daytime one and a nighttime one (much thicker). Your body will revert to wetting on an almost constant  basis (your bladder fills, and empties without telling you almost every 15-30 minutes 24/7) and your bowels empty either just before a meal, during a meal, or just after a meal. This is the reflex action of the bowels - triggered by the smell of a meal being prepared, and/or eating a meal.

[babykeiff]

9 hours ago, uk_DL said:

babykeiff. Please could you explain why you made this statement?  Is there a reason why when you start out to have timed chnages?  I have seen that on a couple of posts.

So you dont change from the night diapr until mid-morning, but surely by then it will be full and leaking?

The reason for set timed changes is for the subcontious mind to get so used to being in a diaper that it will accept it as normal and therefore, will not expend the energy to retain wet / mess within the body.

1. Bladder - the more a bladder is streched, the higher pressure is placed on the bladder sphincters which means more energy is used to close same tighter. With you being in diapers 24/7/365 no matter what is in them, the body will revert do the following -

• relax the sphincters
• weep urine
• stop informing your contious mind of urine level / voiding need
• stop informing your contious mind of the state of your diaper

As a result, you will revert to wetting at your bodies needs similar to that of a new born who doesn't know about a toilet etc.

1.  
2. Bowels - as content is placed into the lower intestine / bowels, the body expends energy to reverse the action of the lower intestine mainly to allow you to store more within the bowels. Wearing diapers and being unaware of their contents - since the contents will become immaterial (until you are being changed), your subcontious stops informing you of your need to empty your bowels and will empty autonomically. This will stop the reverse action of the lower intestine which means you will place content in your bowels by triggers - eating / smell of food being prepared / shortly after each meal.

By changing only on a timed schedule, it removes from your mind the result to wetting / messing your diaper.

When one is toilet trained, one learns by experience, that a wet / messy diaper = disaproval AND wetting / messign in a potty = praise. Prior to that, the teaching is praise for using your diaper, however, as a newborn, all you knew was of a feeling that existed, and then it was gone. You did not know about cause and effect, and someone else decided if/when to change your diaper. You knew, at that stage, that it didn't matter what was the state of your diaper, you reacted to the full feeling without knowing and caring what was the effect. As a result, your mind stopped informing you of the full feeling and just automatically reacted to it.

Babies / toddlers before they fill their diapers, are unaware of the need (since they are not told). Even if you ask the baby / toddler are they filling their diaper, they will look at you with a blank stare. This is despite the fact that some will hide before filling their diaper. They really do not know, and are just sating a feeling. It is not until they have filled their diaper do they realise (after you ask them) that their diaper is now messy.

As a toilet trained person, you would be aware prior, during and post filling your diaper. Wearing a diaper where its contents are no longer your business (until it is being changes) with the amount of diaper cream on you, all you will know that you need to mess, and that you have messed. Since the difference in feeling of cream to poop is hard to work out, there will be no reminder that you did mess your diaper. With no reminder, and no consequence, forgetfullness will occur where you will be questioning yourself 'did you mess your diaper' and 'when' .

Changing on a timed schedule also removes to know or care what is in your diaper, which means that the body will just act on the feelign without telling you since the reason to be told no longer exists.

In relation to 'not changing the night diaper until mid morning' this is more about capacity and acceptance. The diaper should really be cloth with liners, and thick enough to last 12-14 hours without a change. As a result, with the average 7-8 hours sleep (11pm - 7am), by waiting until 10am or there abouts, you will only be in that diaper 11 hours approx. If a baby is only wet from overnight, the diaper is not usually changed until after they are fed (and messed same).  Some babies are changed while been given a morning bottle, but if the career has to go in to the baby (as the baby has woken up and is crying from being alone) the career usually picks the child up and feed it first before changing unless the night diaper is over full.

[BabyBoi91]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:25 AM, uk_DL said:

babykeiff. Please could you explain why you made this statement?  Is there a reason why when you start out to have timed chnages?  I have seen that on a couple of posts.

So you dont change from the night diapr until mid-morning, but surely by then it will be full and leaking?

Tbh , from my perspective, the person you are referring to may have a history of giving “expert advice” and sometimes even [very incorrect] “medical advice” about things he maybe shouldn’t be giving advice on.  He has acknowledged that he does not have any medical or psychological expertise, but is eloquent and frequently works in jargon to sound like he does, imo.

I feel like his posts would be better suited if they were merely sharing his own experiences and not always telling people what to do. Sometimes he has even given people dangerous health advice in my opinion, so as someone who is a health professional, I usually remind people, “Please be careful about following advice on the Internet.” 
 

To reference OP, I think you’re doing a great job. You may not even have to drink a “ton” of water , although early on it can certainly give you more opportunities to wet. The best thing you said is that you “try to relax and let it flow”—that’s great! One of the biggest parts of untraining is getting to a point where you aren’t focused on untraining, where you accept that your body will just do relax / release when it needs to. ?

 

[babykeiff]

15 hours ago, BabyBoi91 said:

Tbh , from my perspective, the person you are referring to ... has acknowledged that he does not have any medical or psychological...

LIAR.

I never acknowledged here, or anywhere else online any of my skills or qualifications, and NEVER WILL

[babykeiff]

15 hours ago, BabyBoi91 said:

.... in my opinion, so as someone who is a health professional

In the USA, high school graduation ends at approx 18. Add to that, 4 years of college (age 22)

Doctor = plus 4 years of medical school (26) plus 4 - 5 years residency (program dependant). This makes the youngest doctor 31+.

Dentist = plus 4 years medical school (26) plus 2-4 years residency (program dependant). This makes the youngest dentist 28-30+.

Nurse = plus 2 - 4 years of medical school. The youngest nurse 24-26+

As a result, how at age 30 is BabyBoi91 a 'health professional', and even if he is, he is a trainee doctor without little to no experience OR a dentist or, more likely a nurse / aid with limited knowledge.

'health professional' in a protected term, and one can face prison for misusing same - even online.

Health professionals maintain health in humans through the application of the principles and procedures of evidence-based medicine and caring. Health professionals study, diagnose, treat and prevent human illness, injury and other physical and mental impairments in accordance with the needs of the populations they serve. They advise on or apply preventive and curative measures, and promote health with the ultimate goal of meeting the health needs and expectations of individuals and populations, and improving population health outcomes. They also conduct research and improve or develop concepts, theories and operational methods to advance evidence-based health care. Their duties may include the supervision of other health workers (adapted from ILO 2008; WHO 2010; Gupta 2011).

excerpt from World Health Organisation and National Libary of Medicine USA

Therefore, since he is a self identified 'health professional', and chronologically can be Nurse, Dentist or trainee Doctor, he does not have either the qualifications and/or experience to comment on any advise that does not fall directly within his field of *expertise. i.e. a dentist cannot advise and/or perform heart surgery OR comment to another about same. They don't have the knowledge and/or ability.

*This is on the presumption that this person has any expertise. His basic use of the english language seems, to me, a non native English speaker, a little shabby at best. During any third level training, many reports, thesis' essays etc. are produced, and if same were presented with poor grammar / spelling / addition of, nonidentified by author, acroynms, said presentations would be ignored resulting in one failing said module / course / year. The concept of 'no child left behind' is not implemented in third level.