Ethics question for people who wear 24/7

[Alex Bridges]

It is increasingly likely I will be having a major orthopedic hip surgery in the Spring. I’ll need help getting to and from the bathroom, showering, etc for a few days.

I wear 24/7 (only #1). It’s for enjoyment, but the injury being repaired has contributed to overactive bladder and minor leaks. But I don’t need diapers for them.
 

On the other hand, given how often I have to pee, getting up to use the bathroom that often just may not be practical for a few days. And on yet another hand, I’m not sure, given this is a hip surgery, whether diapers are any better.

Let’s assume diapers are okay medically. It’s likely that for a few days I won’t be able to change myself.

Is it ethical to expect a hired caregiver to change me post-surgery when I could, theoretically, make it to the bathroom and wear undies?

 

[ppdude]

Not too sure what ethics has to do with this. If you hire or are assigned a care giver, just make it known that you're diapered (who cares why or why not). If they don't like it, they can always refuse the assignment, but for most hired care givers it's not an issue. Remember -- a diaper is much better than a bed pan.

Good luck and God's blessings.

 

[minachan16]

I agree with @ppdude. Be upfront about your needs. You may not *need* to be diapered, but you could explain that while you can try, there may be accidents. You don't know what your post-surgery state is going to be like. Do not expect though that a hired health aide is going to want to change your diapers. At the most, it would be reasonable if you are otherwise abled that you would be expected to change yourself with minimal assistance. Expecting or asking for anything more than that would be unethical.

[Alex Bridges]

32 minutes ago, minachan16 said:

You don't know what your post-surgery state is going to be like.

That’s the million dollar question. I won’t be able to get to the bathroom on my own at first, and I’m not sure if I’m going to be able to change my own diaper either. Either way, me and this lucky person are gonna get to be friends very quickly.

[oznl]

Ethics are inevitably subjective but this is how I would play it.

I would rely upon my caregiver for “diaper support” no more than the practicalities and necessities my condition demanded.  Note my deliberate inclusion of “practicalities” in addition to “necessities”.  Just because it’s technically possible to use a toilet doesn’t mean that’s the safest/best solution.  Being "tactically diapered" in a health care situation is more common than you'd think.

What I would NOT do is use a caregiver in any way that would see them as some kind of unknowing participant in a “scene” (not that having my diapers changed by others is a thing for me anyway).

In my case, I suspect I would either be diapered or (if wounds were in the way), catheterised because it’s by now well established that I will pee automatically within a couple of hours after falling asleep and I would imagine that during recuperation, sleep (and possibly pain-relief-imbued sedation) would be as much of a thing during the day as at night.

[plainsdl]

Where is your incision going to be?  Have they told you?   My first concern would be keeping that site clean and dry.  In the hospital they will likely have you on a catheter during the first hours after surgery.   For many surgeries, including hip replacement, they want the patient to be up and moving around (on a walker at first) -- helps prevent DVT issues.  Then at some point they expect/want you to walk to the toilet and the cath will come out.   If you tell them you are incontinent they may set up something like a cath so that the wound is kept clean and dry.  There are methods to cover the wound with a waterproof bandage but I don't think that is standard procedure.  If a diaper is involved they may show you how to do it yourself safely and just hand you the materials.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Just now, oznl said:

Ethics are inevitably

Absolutely false!

If it were true then anyone could justify lying, racism, rape, pedo, even murder, since good and evil would dempend on whether or not you had a hair across your ass at any given moment. In fact, with no external referents, good and evel would be impossible to define. Ethicks is not a specific moral code, that is derived from ethics. Ethicks is the means by which you come to your moral code such as the Principle of Double Effect (May you do an act if it has results that are both good and evil? If ehticis were subjective, there would be no reference to anything that exists apsrt from and prior to, the feelings of the person doing the act), or Aquinas' dictum "Never follow a doubtful conscience and always follow a certain conscience [if ethics were soubjective,there would be no way to inform or "program" the conscience and who could fault Jeffrey Epstain or the pedo down the street? They would say 'Do not judge me: Ethics are subjective!]". "Self-absorbed dweeb", or "what a dick he is" would have no meaning. If ethics where subjective, there would be no anchor to the external world where we all live and lww would be a matter of which gang had the most guns and might would make right and the world would devolve into "Red Hour 24/7/52"

Who would care to live in that world?

[~Brian~]

2 hours ago, minachan16 said:

I agree with @ppdude. Be upfront about your needs. You may not *need* to be diapered, but you could explain that while you can try, there may be accidents. You don't know what your post-surgery state is going to be like. Do not expect though that a hired health aide is going to want to change your diapers. At the most, it would be reasonable if you are otherwise abled that you would be expected to change yourself with minimal assistance. Expecting or asking for anything more than that would be unethical.

@Alex Bridges
 

I would agree with @minachan16  I would make sure that the person who will be helping you understand that you are diapered for a legitimate reason, and then make sure that you have what you need to be able to take care of the situation. You may or may not be able to change yourself depending on what the situation is, how badly something hurt, or what happens during your operation. One of the things that he’s always been taught to me is that you do “As much as you can for yourself“ and then do not worry about anything else. If you are unable to change your diapers, or you’re an able to get to a toilet, then it would be understandable if you need to wear diapers, or if you choose to wear diapers, and if you are unable to change your diapers, someone probably would change them for you. If and when you’re able to do it yourself, then the idea is that you would be able to do it yourself, with minimal intervention from a health aide.  

It all depends on what happens during your surgery, and what happens during your recovery. I remember when I had my appendix out, and they told me that it was going to “be an easy surgery for me to deal with” what they neglected to mention, was that my appendix exploded, and I had a bunch of this nasty garbage that’s in my system that was really hard to get rid of, and so they had to keep me on antibiotics for about three out of the four weeks that I was in the hospital. As fast as they could, they got me on my feet, and they kept me moving around, because that will keep your legs from ending up getting problems in them. By that I mean that your feet swell or your legs have problems, so they keep you moving. If, after you end up getting out of your surgery, and you start getting Your bearings, you find that you still need help in certain areas, then by all means I would make sure that you were able to ask and receive that service. If and when you’re able to change yourself, and deal with it then that would be something that your aid would not be happy with. For example, if I decide that I want to have my neck done, because of all the problems that I’ve had, they would be certain things that I would be able to do myself, while there would be a period of eight weeks that I would not be able to do certain things because I would be limited. If and when that happened, then I would discuss with my caregivers and my support team what they would be able to do for me, how long they would be able to do it for, and what they would expect of me. Most times if you play it by this playbook you will be fine. Home health aids are there to help you as much as they can, to maintain your independence and ability to function. If you are unable to do it, then that is one thing, but you eventually will be able to do it again, so as much as it may sound “unethical“ it is not if you need the help and there are reasons for having that type of assistance. This is because you are showing a medical need an a medical reason for having the assistance that you are required to have.

The rub is when somebody tries to use their disability as a shield to get somebody to do something that is not needed. I am sure that this is not what you would do anyway, so that would not be an issue. However, as I have posted in another thread, there are people who try to take advantage of a situation, and a very unethical and sneaky way to try to get something done by somebody who should not do it.  If somebody requires that type of service, that is one thing, but for people who like to try to see what they can “get away with” this can be a problem because then bad things can happen.

I don’t think I would worry too much about “ethics “here, because you know that you have a medical need and a medical necessity to have the operation that you are in need of, and you wear diapers for a reason, and all you would have to do is tell someone that you were diapered and what the reason is, and you would come to an agreement as to what would happen when you first have your surgery, and guidelines and expectations are set, and as long as you maintain those guidelines and expectations I don’t think there would be an issue. I mean, Alex, if somebody needed to change your diaper, because you were unable to do it, it would be doing it within the scope of their employment, and it would be like a nurse helping you clean yourself up after a bad accident in your hospital bed. I don’t think you would have a problem, because you understand what you’re able to do and what you’re unable to do, and the only way you would be able to determine whether you would not be able to do it is if you where to find out yourself.

 I hope that your surgery goes well, and that you’re able to quickly recover. If you are talking about a hip replacement, these can be a pain in the neck, and I can tell you from experience that it takes a long time to heal from such a replacement, but I am sure that with the proper support system, therapy, and your stubbornness, you will be able to get through this very easily. Just take it easy, and do as my stepfather told me: enjoy what you can enjoy and let them take care of you call me for when it is time for you to do it, you will be able to do it quite easily once everything is back to assemblance of normal, and it will be no different than if you were to get up in the middle of the night and decide I am going to do it. Just let it go a day at a time and see how you feel, and if you need the help , Ask for it and don’t feel guilty!

Good Luck!

Brian

 

 

[Alex Bridges]

1 hour ago, plainsdl said:

Where is your incision going to be?  Have they told you?  

I don't know yet.

1 hour ago, oznl said:

What I would NOT do is use a caregiver in any way that would see them as some kind of unknowing participant in a “scene” (not that having my diapers changed by others is a thing for me anyway).

I'm going to be in way too much pain to be interested in any kind of scene. To quote one orthopedist I saw, I'll "wish I had a hip replacement instead," but a replacement actually isn't an option for me at my age

[plainsdl]

Don't know what your issue is but here is a hip surgery alternative to hip replacement called hip resurfacing that is designed for young males (ages ~20-55).   Look into it.  It got some bad press due to a poor design in a popular brand (Depuy) but there are other brands that are doing just fine, particularly in young males.  See for example
http://www.surfacehippygroup.org

Good luck in whatever you have done...

[oznl]

7 hours ago, Little Christine said:

Absolutely false!

If it were true then anyone could justify lying, racism, rape, pedo, even murder, since good and evil would dempend on whether or not you had a hair across your ass at any given moment.

 

Maybe that’s how you’d LIKE it to be but there are loads of different ethics philosophies out there.  These different systems can lead to different “ethical” outcomes from an identical set of circumstances.  What is considered ethical for a hedonist might be considered unethical by another of the Kantianism school (I think Jeffrey Epstein would be stretching the definition of even “hedonist” by the way).

At its extreme, there have been some pretty kick-ass wars between two tribes, each in its own view acting ethically.

I just put the line I would not cross out there but point out that others may see those circumstances differently.

6 hours ago, Alex Bridges said:

I don't know yet.

I'm going to be in way too much pain to be interested in any kind of scene. To quote one orthopedist I saw, I'll "wish I had a hip replacement instead," but a replacement actually isn't an option for me at my age

Yep.  Reminds me of the time I spent a few days in the ICU catheterised and surrounded by nappies.  In terms of excitement, we were talking nix, nothing, nada…  I was tired, sick and couldn’t wait to get out of there ASAP.

Oh, if they give you one of those self-administering pain control things (Fentynal-at-a-button-push) my counsel would be to go easy on it.  I didn't.  I went in hard. Coming off that stuff was kind of weird ?

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

2 hours ago, oznl said:

Maybe that’s how you’d LIKE it to be but there are loads of different ethics philosophies out there.  These different systems can lead to different “ethical” outcomes from an identical set of circumstances.  What is considered ethical for a hedonist might be considered unethical by another of the Kantianism school (I think Jeffrey Epstein would be stretching the definition of even “hedonist” by the way).

 

That first statement is a perfect case of Denial, which is a hallmark of subjectivism. It attemtps to turn ethics, or any claim to something being actual, true or good into a matter of feelings Just examine the statements of any sociopath concerning the bases for his or her actions and how "the rules don't apply to me". Or just look at Donald Trump over the last 37 years. 7 years ago, I could believe that Christian Conservatives had at least some principles. Now, you could feed them to the left an inch at a time and I would not care

The fact that there are many different sets of ethics does not rule out objectivity,. Especially since all of their proponentsts claim that they are TRUE, meaning connected to an external world that exosts apart from, and prior to, the contents of anyone's consciousness. The Nazis had a very sophisticated ethical system based on a mixture of racial superiority and the writings of Friedrich Nieztche If I were a subjectivist, I would have to consider that as "valid". And we all know where THAT strain led. So, it HAD to be false. So, if one can be shown to be false (on the basis that it was blatantly racist) then any or all of them can be false. So we must developm standards of trueth and falsehood, which nullifies "subjective"

A thing is true whether I; or anyone, LIKES it or not

One of the claims made by the Uptights 50+ years ago was that giving the "deviants" one single inch would lead to "anything goes", hedonism and and the destruction of morality (they were not educated in the larger field of ethics, of which morality is an product) by claiming "if it feels good, do it". I'd hate like hell to have to admit that they were correct

[Alex Bridges]

5 hours ago, oznl said:

 

Oh, if they give you one of those self-administering pain control things (Fentynal-at-a-button-push) my counsel would be to go easy on it.  I didn't.  I went in hard. Coming off that stuff was kind of weird ?

Crazy thing is they’ll send me home the same day. 

[~Brian~]

5 minutes ago, Alex Bridges said:

Crazy thing is they’ll send me home the same day. 

@Alex Bridges

what is crazy is it, that most surgeries now are all same day. This means that anyone going into the hospital regardless of how serious the surgery is would be sent home almost the same day. This can cause issues with surgeries for someone who has a disability like myself, because every time they send you in there they expect you to come out the same day. I remember back in the 80s, when they would send you in for surgery and you’d be there for like three days or four days and then you would be out of the hospital.

I asked the doctor when I had a consultation with her about possibly doing something about my neck when it hurts and causes problems with my arm. I almost insisted that if they were going to do surgery on me that they do not send me home the same day. I am not sure how I would react to being sent home on the same day and having no support, but I know that I have support through my program, I just wouldn’t wanna be in a position where they would put me in the same day surgery operation and then sent me home with no supports.  

It is my hope that if they are monitoring my neck problem, that if they detected that there will be a problem, that they will be able to help me without having me do surgery on the same day and release me. This is because of my disability, and I have been told that they probably would keep me for a few days. I want to make sure happens if I have to go for any procedure that they make sure that I am able to function at the highest level possible before sending me home. It seems like most hospitals i’m more concerned with getting you in and out real fast rather than to make sure that you are functionally able to do what you need to do at the house before they send you out. When I was a kid, they would keep me there for at least a week, and that is to make sure that you were able to function at your highest level. Because of my disability I would hope that this is what they would do, because I don’t want to be in a position where I am unable to function at the level that I feel comfortable.

good luck Alex, those hip surgeries can be a pain in the neck, and one of the ones I had when I was 17 was a pain for me, but it was something that I had to do because if I didn’t I would have my hips dislocate, and because of that I would have had arthritis in my hips for the rest of my life. Thank God for doctors like that who take good care of their patients, and make sure that they are able to function.

Brian