starting to unpotty: drink a lot or not?

[Linus]

Hi there, 

I kinda feel, it is time to make a real attempt now. But I am not sure how to do it exactly. I read a lot and got some ideas, but still got some questions. Hope you can help me with some experience.

I am in diapers full time already for some years but never seriously attempted to become incontinent. My bladder seemed always quite strong. I could hold it for a long time, If I had to. So if I felt the diaper was reaching capacity, I subconsciously hold back from wetting until I had the chance to change. I guess thats the reason, why I never got anywhere close to the point of loosing control. 

Since I am in home office since 2 months, I felt  that I didnt hold back so much, because, leaks wouldnt be an issue and changing was always possible. I feel the effect. I dont think at the moment I would be able to hold on forever.

I did a bit of a test, was drinking like 700ml of water, and then going for a walk for an hour without a diaper and see if I come back dry. I felt the urge after 10-15 minutes, and tried to hold back. It worked at first and I continued my way. But when I did a bit of a pause, the urge came back, and I couldnt fully hold it. A spurt went into my pants. It wasnt that much, but still more than a few drops. This released the urge for a bit, but after another 5-10 minutes the same thing happened again. I couldnt really hold it back and the pants got wetter. I didnt fully loose control, just a bit at a time every couple of minutes. So it seems my bladder is not as strong as it was before. Before some time, I think I would have been able to hold it easily for the hour. And I feel, I want to do this next step now, really becoming diaper dependent, not just wearing 24/7, but having to wear, or face the consequences of accidents. 

For Daytime wetting, i wanna shrink my bladder and let the sphincter relaxed all time (find it quite tough to do sometimes). I can wet sitting, but it is not so easy, not naturally. When standing I feel the urge and can easily let it just happen. So I thought, the best way to ensure the bladder can empty is to stand up once in a while, like every 30 minutes and see if i had to pee. Maybe this conditions my body to empty the bladder, as soon as I stand up. 

My big question is, if I should drink a lot during the day , say like 300ml every hour, or just normal amounts. I am a bit unsure because, if i drink a lot, that would also mean, my bladder fills quickly and in the 30 mins of sitting, the bladder would fill much more than if drink a normal amount like 2 liters a day. So, basically, If i drink a lot, my bladder will hold a larger amount of liquid and therefore will not shrink as quickly as it would with a smaller amount of liquid. So I actually tend not to overdo it. I think, drinking 1-2 liter over the day would still fill my diaper, but every 30 min, it would maybe just a dribble coming from my bladder, so that my bladder could shrink really quickly. What do you think, am I right with that? 

 

Linus

 

 

[kincaid]

The untraining program states to drink more so you relax the sphincter more often to go. It's not focussing on shrinking the bladder yet.

After months of very frequently voiding you get into the automatic voiding pattern and develop an overactive bladder. Then you can normalize liquid intake to the 2 liters a day. In time your bladder nerves will respond to void so soon you'll think your bladder shrunk massively. In reality this muscle rarely shrinks, but it's the nerve impulses that adapt to void asap. This latter stage can take years for some, months for others.

[Bonsai]

My idea of what’s happening to you right now is that the muscles in your bladder walls (the destrusor muscles) are growing stronger and therefore allow a less elastic behavior to your bladder. A stronger destrusor also means that, once the urge hits, it will be a lot harder to hold it.

Training the destrusor even further will fast lead to urge incontinence and probably bedwetting.

If this is your goal, you should try to stay for as long as possible on feeling the urge to go. So: drink 500 ml first thing in the morning and then hold it. When the urge strikes, try to hold for as long as possible while doing activities that stimulate you (avoid to lay or sit, but keep walking/ jumping/bending like you need to pick something from the floor and so on).

Before it turns to painful, leak a little bit into your protection and then clamp. Each time you leak, drink some more (caffeine is your friend in this battle to defeat your bladder holding capacity). Try to link drinking with leaking. You should leak frequently in small amounts.

The urge will very soon hit you more suddenly and with lower liquid into your bladder. It will also be much harder to hold it.

[Linus]

Hello Bonsai

12 hours ago, Bonsai said:

 

Training the destrusor even further will fast lead to urge incontinence and probably bedwetting.

If this is your goal, you should try to stay for as long as possible on feeling the urge to go.

 

It is my goal to become incontinent and yes, also to become a bedwetter. I think both go together. If my bodies holds pee over night for a long time and subconsciously clenches my sphincter, it will also by daytime probably never really use control. So, i definitely want those things. 

I am looking for an incontinence that is actually getting rid of the urge, so that I can wet without realising that I actually have to go. So thats why I am just following the usual suggestion to keep my sphincter as relaxed as possible, keep it open and when the urge hits me, it just needs a breath or two and I am starting wetting. When I am drinking regularly in small quantities like 100ml every 30min , I will wet in almost the same frequency, sometimes even more often. I would say every 15-30 minutes. 

So it feels that I already get the urge when only small quantities are in my bladder. What do you think. Is this the right interpretation. 

Quote

12 hours ago, Bonsai said:

If this is your goal, you should try to stay for as long as possible on feeling the urge to go. So: drink 500 ml first thing in the morning and then hold it. When the urge strikes, try to hold for as long as possible while doing activities that stimulate you (avoid to lay or sit, but keep walking/ jumping/bending like you need to pick something from the floor and so on).

Before it turns to painful, leak a little bit into your protection and then clamp. Each time you leak, drink some more (caffeine is your friend in this battle to defeat your bladder holding capacity). Try to link drinking with leaking. You should leak frequently in small amounts.

The urge will very soon hit you more suddenly and with lower liquid into your bladder. It will also be much harder to hold it.

Your suggestions sounds really interesting, and i am very tempted to try that. It just feels, that it is the exact opposite of what I do right now. I am worried that with this exercise I will strengthen my sphincter, which will actually prolong the whole process of loosing control and wet without noticing. 

Can you maybe explain a little bit more about your idea? I got some specific questions about it.

- how long should this excercise take. is it just for one wetting or a full day

- how does it fit together with the 12 month training program and the concept of leaving the sphincter open all the time

- How often would you suggest to do your exercise?

- do you know in which way this would weaken the detrusor muscle. I do not really know much about functionality of the detrusor, but would like to undertand why the exercise acutally makes the bladder capacity smaller. 

- Will the urge incontinence that follows, result in painful urges, rather than an incotinence, where you would wet without noticing an urge?

I know it is a lot of questions, and I do not expect that you or anyone else can  actually answer them fully. But it would be very helpful for me, if I have some more details. So thanks for taking the time

 

On 5/14/2020 at 12:27 AM, kincaid said:

After months of very frequently voiding you get into the automatic voiding pattern and develop an overactive bladder. Then you can normalize liquid intake to the 2 liters a day. In time your bladder nerves will respond to void so soon you'll think your bladder shrunk massively. In reality this muscle rarely shrinks, but it's the nerve impulses that adapt to void asap. This latter stage can take years for some, months for others.

As written above, I am already at a point where I wet evey 15-30 minutes and also holding for an hour if I drank more than 500ml seems tricky. To me it sounds I am already getting near the area of an overactive bladder. So, i generally drink rather a lot to feel good and healthy. Seems that 3-4L i can manage easily and seems like a sweetspot for me. So i try now to drink 100ml every 30 min plus some extras like coffee in the morning or an extrabit before bedtime to ensure, that my nighttime diaper doesnt stay dry. This bring me to around 4L. I hope I can establish this as a routine. 

 

[Bonsai]

6 hours ago, Linus said:

Hello Bonsai

I am looking for an incontinence that is actually getting rid of the urge.

Can you maybe explain a little bit more about your idea? I got some specific questions about it.

- how long should this excercise take. is it just for one wetting or a full day

- how does it fit together with the 12 month training program and the concept of leaving the sphincter open all the time

- How often would you suggest to do your exercise?

- do you know in which way this would weaken the detrusor muscle. I do not really know much about functionality of the detrusor, but would like to undertand why the exercise acutally makes the bladder capacity smaller. 

- Will the urge incontinence that follows, result in painful urges, rather than an incotinence, where you would wet without noticing an urge?

 

Hello and thanks for the interest. My idea is that, to train the destrusor to the point of severe urge incontinence, you need approximately 3 - 4 days. On the contrary, to untrained the sphincter starting from scratch, you need several months. Yes, while you train the destrusor, you will also train the sphincter.

What I personally experience after some on-off practice is:

1. After I void, the need to pee stays at zero for some time (longer if I lay down or sit) and then suddenly raises to extreme urgency levels. It happens to me that the urgency strikes in the middle of a conversation with someone and, before I manage to get to the end of it, I am forced to loose the majority of my bladder content into the protection I’m wearing).

2. Post-voiding dribbling would now be a noticeable issue if I did not wear protection.

3. If I drink 500 ml or more before going to sleep, I will wet in my sleep.

 

To answer to your questions:

- It depends on your starting situation, but I guess you should notice the first effects after 6 - 10 hours of training.

- As said before, this works on a different concept than the 12 months program. The advantage is that it’s much faster and that, after this, it will probably be easier to also work on the 12 months program. You could for instance first become a bedwetter this way and then continue with the 12 months program. So, consider it a shortcut.

- Start with one full day and see where you get. I’m very inconsistent in my exercise and usually commit to this 1 day per week, plus some evenings (2 - 3 hours). After each 1 day exercise, the next day my continence situation is noticeably worse than usual. I never tried more than a couple of days in a row.

- The dextrusor muscle will get reinforced, not weakened. This muscle is all around the walls of the bladder and squeezes it when you voluntarily wish to urinate. It is a sort of cage around the bladder. If you train it, it will get stiffer and therefore oppose more resistance when your bladder fills up.

- The urge will be extremely noticeable, but not painful. Trying to hold will feel like trying to keep your grip while hanging on a slippery slope.

[Linus]

Hello and thanks a lot for your helpful message, 

Firstly I have to say that against my former scepticism, after I read your message I spontaneously decided to give it a go today. We were on a field trip with the kids with much walking around, so i thought it is actually a very good opportunity to give this a go (especially compared to a normal day in the office). 

Just coming back from the trip like 2 hours ago, I can share some of my experiences and compare them with yours.

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

Hello and thanks for the interest. My idea is that, to train the destrusor to the point of severe urge incontinence, you need approximately 3 - 4 days. On the contrary, to untrained the sphincter starting from scratch, you need several months. Yes, while you train the destrusor, you will also train the sphincter.

sounds interesting and after the effects I have seen today, I understand why you make that estimation. I actually agree that it also trains to leave the sphicter open. That was quite surprising to me. After I did clench to stop a urination, and the immediate urge was gone, i released the sphincter almost immediately and automatically.

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

What I personally experience after some on-off practice is:

1. After I void, the need to pee stays at zero for some time (longer if I lay down or sit) and then suddenly raises to extreme urgency levels. It happens to me that the urgency strikes in the middle of a conversation with someone and, before I manage to get to the end of it, I am forced to loose the majority of my bladder content into the protection I’m wearing).

I can second that. I had a situation just sitting in front of the TV where I felt the urge rising and it took not longer than 15-20 sec until i couldnt hold it anymore and a spurt escaped, repeated by more spurts. I tried to stop, but really struggled. I am not 100% sure, if I was fully committed to stop the stream, or if I enjoyed the state of control loss, so I let it happen for a bit longer that absolutely needed. But it was definitely not a voluntary wetting. 

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

2. Post-voiding dribbling would now be a noticeable issue if I did not wear protection.

I also had the feeling, that I felt that sensation of a dribbling.

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

3. If I drink 500 ml or more before going to sleep, I will wet in my sleep.

For this I need to wait for tonight. Of course I am very excited if this could really happen after trying this for just one day. And I am realistic enough not to expect this. But of course this would be something really amazing. I will definitely make sure to drink enough fluids before heading to bed and als track how much i wet the diaper prior to sleep. Usually I wake up 1-2 per night to wet. If I would sleep through all night, that would be a strong indication, that there was a bedwetting; and of course the wetness of the diaper. .. 

well, lets wait and see. I will report tomorrow morning about the status.  

So the bedwetting for you happens just after the procedure, or does it also have a long term effect on your night continence in general?

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

To answer to your questions:

- It depends on your starting situation, but I guess you should notice the first effects after 6 - 10 hours of training.

I think after 3 hours in (and around 1L of fluid intake during that time), I experienced the first time a situation, where I had a first involuntary spurt happening.  

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

- As said before, this works on a different concept than the 12 months program. The advantage is that it’s much faster and that, after this, it will probably be easier to also work on the 12 months program. You could for instance first become a bedwetter this way and then continue with the 12 months program. So, consider it a shortcut.

That was an interesting thought and was probably the argument to convince me. I already spent 7 year in diapers 24/7 without loosing control (though as described there are some effects, that probably fit the status of others that are doing the 12mo program for a couple of weeks / months). A shortcut especially for bedwetting would be great. 
 

I find that I can very easily relax the sphincter over the day and till evening, it really comes naturally and with some breathing techniques, I can reduce the feel of urge and with the sphincter relaxed a slow and naturally feeling voiding starts very quickly ( that I would expect also from some forms of incontinence, not sure if I my expectations are correct here).

During the night, my bladder holds more and voiding in lying position is more difficult, especially if the pressure in the bladder is already higher. So when I get up, it feels that everything is very tight down there and automatism and natural voiding seems gone. So every night is kind of a fall back for me. If I could become a bedwetter rather earlier than later, I think my overall progress would be much quicker. 

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

- Start with one full day and see where you get. I’m very inconsistent in my exercise and usually commit to this 1 day per week, plus some evenings (2 - 3 hours). After each 1 day exercise, the next day my continence situation is noticeably worse than usual. I never tried more than a couple of days in a row.

How long does it take to get back to normal. Are you also following the 12mo program and keep the sphincter relaxed at the days where you dont follow your procedure?

11 hours ago, Bonsai said:

- The dextrusor muscle will get reinforced, not weakened. This muscle is all around the walls of the bladder and squeezes it when you voluntarily wish to urinate. It is a sort of cage around the bladder. If you train it, it will get stiffer and therefore oppose more resistance when your bladder fills up.

- The urge will be extremely noticeable, but not painful. Trying to hold will feel like trying to keep your grip while hanging on a slippery slope.

Thats well put. It took me substantial effort of clenching the sphincter. The sphincter just seemed to be stuck in the "open" status and even though I really wanted to close, I could only do it after serveral seconds and it also felt like pulling a huge lever from one position to the other. When it finally closed, it did it very noticeably, much more intense, than the normal feeling that you, when a pee ends. 

So, really an interesting day with a lot of new experiences. thanks a lot for that. 

I am still really excited about that experiment and kind of hope to feel the consequences tonite and tomorrow. I am also a little afraid if there are any severe consequence to my health. I mean yes, developing an urge incontinence is a consequence to my health. But that is my goal, that is what want. But of course I do not want to harm my kidneys or anything else in the urinary tract where the consequences go beyond incontinence. 

I read that you can develop a detrusor-sphincter dyssynergia, when stopping the wetting process. And this could then as well create damage in the urinary tract. Not sure, if this actually happens really when following this procedure,but it sure sounded a bit worrying to me, and was dampening my enthusiasm a little bit.  I mean would not plan to do this procedure over weeks and months. It is more like a 1-day thing, or maybe as you said 3-4days maximum, but as I have no medical knowledge, I can hardly jduge, how quickly something can create permament damage or cause an infection or anything. 

Did anyone has any experience on the medical side with this procedure?

 

Best, 

Linus

 

 

 

 

[Bonsai]

I’m no medical expert, so take my advice on long-term health issues with caution... I’m just sharing my non-expert thoughts here...

Kidney damage happens if you manage to hold your bladder at high pressure for a long time. What you do here is give short stress to the kidneys each time you get the urge to go and try to hold it. Eventually, your capacity to fight against the urge will be crippled and, consequently, also your capacity to damage your kidneys.

Urinary trait infection can be an issue if you do not fully void the contents of your bladder, and with this method you’re doing exactly that. To counter that, I can only suggest the normal remedies: c-vitamin rich food, high liquid intakes to better flush out, blueberry...

The final risk I see is is to loose the ability to fully void your bladder. As your bladder walls get stiffer, it could happen that the last 50 - 100 ml of urine do not get expelled. This further reduces the holding capacity of your bladder (not a problem if you already wish to achieve incontinence), but also increases the risk of infection.

Since I do an office job with more than 50% of my time at a desk, I don’t have the chance to test the method fully and understand if those risks are real or not.

To help you draw conclusions, I would define myself generally healthy, I’m 41 yo and my experiments on this method have gone on-off for roughly 9 months. I never tried the 12 months program because it requires a level of commitment I cannot afford.

Good luck and, if you wish to give this a try, I would be very interested in knowing the outcome for you.

[Linus]

thanks for your thoughts; this all sounds like valid views. Maybe a person with medical background can confirm your thoughts. I guess risk of infection is indeed the biggest problem , in case the state of remaining urine would become permament. 

One question about your bedwetting. Is it only occuring, when you did the procedure, or is your risk of bedwetting also increased for every night?

[Linus]

Just a quick update after the night. 

So I went to sleep after drinking 500ml. I was falling asleep while listening to one of those hypnosis tapes and was waking up again after around 40min. I was a bit desoriented but realised soon, that i felt the urge to pee. And as during all evening I wasnt really able to hold it back and also had no interest. So I let go and just wet into my diapers. The same happened again around 1 hr later again. After that I slept through till around 7 where I woke up with just a mildly filled bladder. Usually after waking up, I feel my bladder is very full. This wasnt the case this time. 

So the question is, why that was. Maybe I peed so much in the first two wettings, that there was just not much fluid left to fill my bladder again. 

Theretically it could have also happened that I wet my diaper in my sleep without knowing, but I highly doubt it. And it is impossible to say for sure, because the diaper was wet anyway. So there is no way in saying, If there was another wetting between 1 and 7 o clock. 

 

Today in the morning, it feels pretty much back to normal. I drank my normal amounts with coffee and some water during my morning workout. . So in total I am at 1L now and do not feel any extreme urges yet, definitely not comparable with what I experienced yesterday evening, where it really went into the diaper just with 10 sec warning or so. 

I am still thinking about repeating the experience today. It will be much harder, as it is a day in the (home) office. So it is mainly sitting today and therefore less easy to do the procedure. 

 

 

[Jeanette64]

Linus, if you increase your fluid intake with a greater amount think about the salt intake aswell, in the other case you could end up with severe cramps.

[Linus]

thanks for the reminder. I drink the tap water (germany) and was always under the impression that there is no problem getting enouigh salt and minerals. Generally I also eat quite salty; so i guess I will be fine. But thanks again, If I feel any cramps, i know where it comes from.  

 

 

[Jeanette64]

For me an intake of more than five mugs of coffee could give that effect and it´s based on tap water.

[~Brian~]

Sure, drink liquid, but don't overdo it, or you could drown in your own fluids - You can die from that

Take Care,

Brian

[Linus]

yes, I definitely do not overdo it. Thanks for your kind words. 

I am at around 4L now that I drink per day, in little sips spread over the whole day. And that is also something I did quite a lot in the past and actually may body feels really good with that amount of fluid intake.

 

 

 

[jaytay]

On 5/16/2020 at 4:04 AM, Bonsai said:

My idea of what’s happening to you right now is that the muscles in your bladder walls (the destrusor muscles) are growing stronger and therefore allow a less elastic behavior to your bladder. A stronger destrusor also means that, once the urge hits, it will be a lot harder to hold it.

Training the destrusor even further will fast lead to urge incontinence and probably bedwetting.

If this is your goal, you should try to stay for as long as possible on feeling the urge to go. So: drink 500 ml first thing in the morning and then hold it. When the urge strikes, try to hold for as long as possible while doing activities that stimulate you (avoid to lay or sit, but keep walking/ jumping/bending like you need to pick something from the floor and so on).

Before it turns to painful, leak a little bit into your protection and then clamp. Each time you leak, drink some more (caffeine is your friend in this battle to defeat your bladder holding capacity). Try to link drinking with leaking. You should leak frequently in small amounts.

The urge will very soon hit you more suddenly and with lower liquid into your bladder. It will also be much harder to hold it.

hello, i’m currently doing this exercise today! it’s been quite an experience so far...

I get a strong urge to go now about every 5-10 minutes, and it’s gotten to a point where I feel i have to leak or holding it will get too painful, it’s starting to feel autonomous. I am squirming quite a bit too, should i be allowing larger leaks? do you feel like your squirming and full all day while doing the exercise?

[Davey]

I'm gonna hafta try dis

[Bonsai]

On 5/18/2020 at 8:50 PM, jaytay said:

hello, i’m currently doing this exercise today! it’s been quite an experience so far...

I get a strong urge to go now about every 5-10 minutes, and it’s gotten to a point where I feel i have to leak or holding it will get too painful, it’s starting to feel autonomous. I am squirming quite a bit too, should i be allowing larger leaks? do you feel like your squirming and full all day while doing the exercise?

In my experience, you tend to squirm a lot if you stand still. Try to keep walking/running/jumping and your leaks will be smaller, more frequent and harder to fight back (less squirming).

If instead you stand too still, the experience will be more unpleasant and you will eventually end up with a single very large leak that will then leave you with a semi-empty bladder for a while, which defeats the purpose of the training.

This is the main reason why this method is impossible to apply if you have a desk job.

[nareh60280]

What happened with this experiment? Have you guys achieved some degree of longterm or nightime control loss?

[Babydelila]

I am an ocxasional bedwetter already (2-3 nights a week) i only started using diapers when i started realizing the pads werent working for me anymore. I used to have small leaks overnight but this past week they have gotten heavier (some higher fluid intake) im beginning my journey to full time diapers. I never really stopped bedwetting since i was a kid which i think is in a sense my saving grace for now however i do have some dribbling during the day too so im beginning to think that i may be able to achieve complete urinary incontinence fairly soon. Any ideas? Ive been staying on my normal routines i wear pads during the day to at least catch where my leaky vlaves are not helping but i think i may need to upgrade to pull ups. The best part about this is my partner knows that i have some incontinence (i have had quite a few bad leaks at night) she hates that it can be a burden on linens so i ordered better stuff for night time i feel the pill ups wont do well at night as my flow increases to heavier amounts at night. What are some other good brands for night time wear? Suggestions would be great?