Quebec Election Results

[dogpiss]

I'm wondering if our friends to the north, regardless of being Francophone or Anglophone, have any opinions on the results of the election in Quebec. Pauline Marois from Parti Quebecois seemed to downplay it, but part of her party's platform is Quebec separatist (please correct me if I mis-understand). My personal opinion is that Canada is better off as a whole and the separatist notion of some Provinces is not advisable. Look at how well it worked out for the US! Yes, I understand the principles of preserving one’s culture, but I don’t see how that is any different to regional cultures in the US (the Creole, Southwestern Hispanic, and Florida Cuban exiles/ex-pats come to mind) I just don’t understand why the Francophones are so paranoid at to want to break off and destroy Canada as we know it!

Do you think Marois will try to push the separatist agenda? Why can’t we all just get along? I think part of the thing that makes Canada great is the diversity and it would be incredibly short-sighted to rip apart a long-standing institution for what seems like, to me, nothing more than a paranoid ego trip.

Being a “national mutt” as it were, I can only observe and get opinions from the few places I spend a lot of time. I used to go to Windsor often for work, but now not so much So, friends from all corners of The North, what say you?

[Rihanna]

.....Do you think Marois will try to push the separatist agenda? Why can’t we all just get along? I think part of the thing that makes Canada great is the diversity and it would be incredibly short-sighted to rip apart a long-standing institution for what seems like, to me, nothing more than a paranoid ego trip.

Being a “national mutt

[square_duck]

Elections?? I though you all had a King or Queen and were loyal to the Throne in England! shows what I know

I'm no where near Canada let alone Quebec, but the kind of separatist BS talk pops up in other places as well, and is equally stupid. There is the usual noise from Northern California (Sacramento etc) about breaking California into 2 separate states :rollseyes: and it usually has to do with water and other resources etc. I have been hearing about this since I was a kid, so it doesn't really hold much merit.

Mostly talk like this is centered around a self serving and hidden desire for someone (usually the person most for the event) to become ruler, Mayor, Governor or what not, since they can't get the position any other way IE elections...it's all ego and BS and thoughtlessness, because all they see is themselves in that post with out any consideration about who would be hurt or the resulting destruction that would follow. It's just very short sighted and narrow minded thinking. Canada is stronger united and working as one....regardless of what language they speak much like California or texas is stronger in one piece rather than being broken up into smaller 'fiefdoms' as it were, making them easier to conquer later down the road

"If we don't stand together, we shall surely hang separately! can't remember who said that....but all this talk is just that..talk...and really a waste of time on someones else's delusion of grandure and power fantasy!

[BoTox]

Everybody thinks they are the special snow flake these days. The balkanization of Canada is just the latest group of special snow flakes who are upset they are outnumbered.

[drynot]

Well....honestly...I do hope they try to separate once again. They seem hell bent on getting their own country and, from what I am told, they suck up vast amounts of resources and money in the form of provincial transfer payments and whatnot so I say let them go. They're like a spoiled child when they can't get their way so they play the separate card when they want the rest of us to give into their demands....

[punkboy27]

French Canadians were oppressed for so long, we just want to get what was taken from us almost 250 years ago, when we were betrayed by France, to England. See the Treay of Paris, from 1763 and the Seven Years War, for more info.

Wouldn't you want your own country too, if you were forced to submit to the Queen? Oh, wait, you did achieve independence from the English Crown in 1776. Why? Because of taxation issues. Why does Quebec wants out of Canada? Because of taxation issues. We pay twice for the same things, at the provincial level, and at the federal level, which opens twice as many opportunities for corruption, and which even makes English Canadians unhappy, based on the very hurtful comment drynot posted above. Heck, even you are complaining about the "vast amount of resources and money" and provincial transfers. Quebec isn't winning anything in that process, every province is losing money to the federal government, which is why we want out. So we can control our destiny.

Simply put, what's good for Vancouver or Toronto, isn't necessarily good for Montreal or Quebec City. If you consider that French Canadians represent approximately 20% of Canada's population, while they also represent approximately 80% of Quebec's population, I don't think that the separatist movement is composed of "spoiled child who can't get their way", as much as of proud human beings who'd like to control their own lands, just like Americans did a good while ago...

We have two governments, each working in a different direction and spending money on conflicting interests, how much sense does that make to you? Language and culture aren't the issues here. I agree that we're stronger as a whole, and despite being a separatist, I love Canada too, only I could do without the federal government.

I don't know what kind of propaganda English Canadians are being fed about Quebec Separatists, but if Canada was ruled a little more like the U.S., ie.: more power to the provinces and less to the Federation, there probably wouldn't be a separatist movement to begin with.

That being said, in this day and age, I think countries and borders are obsolete and only remain because of the money and power involved. Nationalism is an outdated concept that never served the people. I wouldn't die for the Canadian flag anymore than I would for Quebec's flag, and, truth be told, I'm wondering why Americans are willing to die for theirs, maybe you guys can explain that to me, since some of you pretend to have such good knowledge of politics...

There have been 3-4 elections in recent history where seperatism was voted down.

There were 2, the last of which was "lost" to a 50.58% vote for the "No" against 49.42% vote for the "Yes", which represents exactly 54,288 difference in the votes, which means that if 27,145 people who voted "No" had voted "Yes", and had democracy been respected, Quebec would be a country by now. It's not like it was a marginal movement, the population is split half and half on the matter, just like I personally am split between my French heritage (Quebec) and my actual country (Canada). It's not like everything was black&white as much as it is a different shade of grey for everyone involved.

And to answer the question in the OP, no, Marois won't push a separtist agenda since, as someone mentionned, she's leading a minority government in which her party holds less than half the votes, so there's very little chance her government will even last through the next year, let alone push for another referendum, although every party except the Quebec Liberal Party (QLP) has strong separatist roots, so it's not impossible either, but every party except the QLP would have to team up, which is unlikely, to some extent. Most politicians and experts agree that there are more pressing issues to be adressed at the moment than the separatist question.

Sorry if I come off so defensive, but when I first read the thread, it seemed more like a separatist-bashing thread than an actual open discussion about Quebec's politics.

[drynot]

Control your destiny? Give me a break. IF you decide to separate then you will have to figure out what you are going to do about the First Nations issues. After all, it was their territory to begin with. Maybe they don't want to be under francophone rule either. Did you ever think about that?

Taxation? Please. You guys get so much stuff handed to you and every single politician seems to want to coddle you anyway and treat you with kid gloves just to AVOID the whole separation issue. If you think stuff such as fuel, food, consumables, and damn near everything else is going to get CHEAPER when you separate, you've got another think coming. You don't PRODUCE anything besides Hydro-electricity and perhaps some lumber, commodities that are in ample supply lately......

You have no trade base. No real commodities. You don't have your own money or the means to produce it. Quebec is a have not province today and it would be a have not country in the future....

I say go for it. Go ahead and separate. That will open the doors for BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, NWT, and the Yukon to form our own country. With all of our vast resources and mineral wealth, we'd be much, MUCH better off then a separate Quebce.....

[Diapered Jason]

@punkboy27, but don't you have a senate and a house of commons that represents your regions' interests in Canada. What more do you expect from your government in representation? As I have read, it seems each of Canada's provinces has quite a bit of autonomy. How you compare this to the American Revolution is beyond me. We were being taxed without any representation whatsoever. When we complained, we were punished with occupation and more taxes. Also, how you downplay the power of nationalism is beyond me as well. Nationalism is how revolutions were won. Coincidentally, nationalism is also how some particular fascist regimes came to power, such as the Third Reich. Do not underestimate nationalism ever as it is a political powerhouse in the right hands and can be made to do very good things and unfortunately, very bad things.

...if Canada was ruled a little more like the U.S., ie.: more power to the provinces and less to the Federation, there probably wouldn't be a separatist movement to begin with.

I guess you don't know that much about U.S. politics, because they say that all the time here in the U.S. too (They're called libertarians). Not just Northern California or Eastern Washington wanting to be separate states, but states like Texas and Alaska wanting to leave the union altogether. We all remember what happened the last time Texas left the union. Certainly for independence to withstand in the past, blood was required, but this may no longer be true in this modern world. There will still be sacrifices of course, and as a country, you will all have to be willing to make them if you want your independence. Clearly from what you said though, you do not want to make those sacrifices. That's fine, just realize you are probably never going to be independent from Canada. Also realize this bombastic enunciation has been the butt of many jokes. So unfortunately for you, you will have to keep in mind you are being laughed at, thus people are already not taking you seriously. Sorry to have to tell you that, but that's the world view.

[punkboy27]

@drynot: How would the First Nations issue be any different than what it is within Canada at the moment? Sure, we'd have to re-negotiate with their leaders, and sure, maybe they don't want to be under French rule (under which they were always fairly treated, by the way, as opposed to the oppression they endured under English rule, you might want to open a history book, some day), just the same as maybe Quebecers don't want to be under English rule, and guess what, that's why there's a separatist movement, because we happen to be a majority here, which is not the First Nation's case. That being said, my best friend is part of said First Nations and he doesn't seem to think that separatism is a bad idea, nor that it would affect our friendship in any way, so yes, I thought about it.

As for our natural resources, your ignorance is overwhelming, if you don't know anything about Quebec, then avoid talking about it. We have more than enough water, minerals, forests, and everything else we need to sustain our economy. Heck, for that matter, if we compare Quebec with other countries, we rank 4th in Hydro-Electricity production, after China, Brazil and the U.S.A. (compare that with the amount we actually use and try to guess what we do with what's left over...) and among the top ten minerals producers, with vast supplies of gold, iron, copper, zinc, titanium, asbestos, silver, magnesium, nickel and many others...

I suggest you read up a bit before you embarrass yourself any further. And maybe open your mind. I thought people in this community were open minded by definition, I see that's not the case, all you're doing is spreading your ignorance and biased opinions, which seem to be based on hearsay and nothing more.

[punkboy27]

@Jason: Yes, I do realize that we'll probably never be separate from Canada and I'm fine with that idea, only when someone like drynot pretends that we couldn't make it on our own if we tried, while also proclaiming that Canada would be better off without us anyways, it simply serves to reinforce my separatist opinions. I normally avoid talking politics for a reason and I'm begining to wonder why I bothered talking about it here, since this can't possibly lead to a constructive discussion, although your post has given me back some hope in that regards. You're right, I'm not willing to make any sacrifice for my country, be it Canada or Quebec, but when one talks of Quebec as a province that gets everything it wants by acting like a spoiled child and/or that gets more benefits from being in Canada than other provinces, despite all the oppression that was forced upon us in the past, or as a province without any form of wealth, I feel obligated to "fight back", even if it's not in my nature.

As for U.S. history, you're perfectly right, I don't know enough to talk about it and/or compare it with Quebec or Canada's history, so ignore those parts of my first post, I guess, but they weren't meant to be taken literally in the first place, only serving to draw a parallel with a nation which seceded from the English Crown for somewhat similar reasons. Although you're perfectly right that we're represented, how is a ~20%-25% representation going to have any weight in the balance of power, against 75%-80% of people who potentially share drynot's point of views?! That, and we still get taxed twice for conflicting interests, which in itself, is enough reason for me to support the separatist movement, despite not being a hardcore separatist, as, like I've said in my first post, I actually like Canada, despite dreaming of the day Quebec could be a country. Yet, just like many other dreams I have relative to the AB/DL aspects of my life, I keep dreaming despite knowing for a fact that those dreams will most likely never come true.

How is that wrong?

[Diapered Jason]

FYI, my post was added on to before I saw any response.

[punkboy27]

Yup, I saw the "a new message was posted" message as I was proof reading my reply to drynot.

[drynot]

Punkboy: If you have vast amounts of natural resources then why is Quebec a have not province? It just goes to show the rest of the country as well as the rest of the world that you can't even manage the resources you have and turn that into prosperity. How would that change if you were your own country? Know what? It wouldn't. You folks spend FAR too much time complaining about things that are just not that important rather than developing the things you NEED to actually form a country.

Honestly...I say go for it. Really. Go ahead and separate. We all know what would happen. Just don't come whining back to us when the whole situation comes crashing down around you.

[punkboy27]

I fail to understand how you can say we're a have not province, since we rank 1st or 2nd (behind Ontario) on pretty much every aspect of the economy, but I'm assuming you're still basing your opinion on unsubstantiated hearsay and that you're anything but willing to have a serious discussion among mature adults, therefore, I apologize to everyone for sharing my thoughts on this thread, which proved to be a waste of my time, and I wish you a happy life, stuck in your close minded little brain.

Farewell, I'll go back to lurker mode.

[messyman]

I fail to understand how you can say we're a have not province,

Quebec takes in eight billion or so a year in transfer payments. Which is how have not province is defined. The Quebec government can't seem to balance a budget without taking money form the more fiscally responsible parts of the country.

[dogpiss]

It seems like here are some deep feelings and wounds on both sides... I didn't mean to raise animosity. My opinion, which is worth exactly $0.00 CAD (-$0.02 USD at current rates), is that all sides could benefit from some reconciliation and that the politicians on both sides are not helping (populism gets one elected, voices of moderation seldom do)! Maybe some way to grant a greater degree of autonomy without splitting up the country? Something like what The Netherlands did in the Antilles? I seriously doubt when Canadians were being shot at Juno Beach they weren't too concerned about who was from where... the just wanted to do their job and get home. Some reconciliation would be good for everyone.

[drynot]

Quebec takes in eight billion or so a year in transfer payments. Which is how have not province is defined. The Quebec government can't seem to balance a budget without taking money form the more fiscally responsible parts of the country.

My figures indicate that the transfer payments are somewhere north of 18 billion per....so....you know what they say about stats and figures.

When it comes right down to it, I don't believe that most Canadians want Quebec to leave confederation. Quebec is rich in history and culture which is rather unique here in Canada and North America. However, most Canucks are tired of this issue coming up every few years or so. It seems that if Quebec politicians don't get their way they play the 'Lets separate' card which is getting old. It's kinda like a bad marriage. We really don't want them to leave but if its inevitable then lets get it over with so we can both move on with our lives.

[punkboy27]

My figures indicate that the transfer payments are somewhere north of 18 billion per....so....you know what they say about stats and figures.

When it comes right down to it, I don't believe that most Canadians want Quebec to leave confederation. Quebec is rich in history and culture which is rather unique here in Canada and North America. However, most Canucks are tired of this issue coming up every few years or so. It seems that if Quebec politicians don't get their way they play the 'Lets separate' card which is getting old. It's kinda like a bad marriage. We really don't want them to leave but if its inevitable then lets get it over with so we can both move on with our lives.

Funny. Those are my exact feelings, too and those were the feelings I expressed in my OP, only I expressed them from the other point of view. Just like there are two sides (people) to every marriage, there's two point of views here too. You don't like transfer payments? My strongest (and most repeated) argument was to get rid of the federal government, which would effectively rid us of this federalist economy which seems to make no one happy, on either side of the coin. We're basically arguing for the same side, only with a different perspective and different arguments, but in the same school of thought, anyhow.

As for the equity of transfer payments, I'm sure you're aware that Canada (and maybe Quebec especially) is a pretty socialist place. Ok, we get 18B$ from transfer payments, I'm not contesting that number, but I never saw you mention how much we contribute to it, nor each other province's benefits from that stupid program, so let's push the exercise deeper and compare transfer payments by capita, according to http://www.fin.gc.ca...fedprov-eng.asp and http://en.wikipedia....phics_of_Canada...

Ontario 12,851,821 pop., 19,546M$ xfer pay., 1,520.87$ / capita

Quebec 7,903,001 pop., 17,431M$ xfer pay., 2,205.62$ / capita

British Columbia 4,479,934 pop., 5,713M$ xfer pay., 1,275.25$ / capita

Alberta 3,645,257 pop., 3,677M$ xfer pay., 1,008.71$ / capita

Manitoba 1,208,268 pop., 3,390M$ xfer pay., 2,805.67$ / capita

Saskatchewan 1,033,381 pop., 1,295M$ xfer pay., 1,253.17$ / capita

Nova Scotia 921,727 pop., 2,879M$ xfer pay. 3,123.49$ / capita

New Brunswick 751,171 pop., 2,509M$ xfer pay. 2,722.06$ / capita

Newfoundland and Labrador 514,536 pop., 656M$ xfer pay., 1,274.94$ / capita

Prince Edward Island 140,204 pop., 513M$ xfer pay., 3,658.94$ / capita

Northwest Territories 41,462 pop., 1,116M$ xfer pay., 26,916.22$ / capita

Yukon 33,897 pop., 810M$ xfer pay., 23,895.92$ / capita

Nunavut 31,906 pop., 1,316M$ xfer pay., 41,246.16$ / capita

Total 33,476,688 pop., 60,851M$ xfer pay., 1,817.72$ / capita

Sure, we're above the national average, but so are Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, P.E.I., and the territories. And now, what are each province's relative benefit? http://en.wikipedia....ities_in_Canada lists the 6 provinces benefiting from that program as follows, per capita... Terriories are somewhy excluded from that graph, but I think we agree that they'd top it, anyways.

Ontario: $246

Quebec: $934

Nova Scotia: 1,342$

Manitoba: $1,353

New Brunswick: 1,985$

P.E.I.: 2,350$

So what's the plan? Kick us all so you have more money for yourself? Oh, what a great (and selfish) country would Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia be... Oh, wait, you'd get the newfies too!

I bet you were brainwashed by sources such as the following (http://cwf.ca/commen...social-programs) into thinking that your money mostly went into Quebec's pockets, while it's shared with every other province. What will be Alberta's situation, 100 years from now, when the entire country might (or might not, the following is purely theorical) run on clean energy?

You guys have the oil, it made you rich, Canada's a socialist state, so you end up sharing the riches with everyone else. Didn't mommy taught you to share when you were a kid?

In any case, the politicians aren't playing the "let's separate" card based on getting our way or not, as much as the PQ plays it when it has popular support and a majority of seats. Canada had to change the federal immigration laws to prevent us from winning the last referendum, I can't wait to see the result of next, but considering that oil is already pretty much obsolete and slowly getting phased out for cleaner forms of energy, I'm not worried about Quebec's future, considering our vast wealth and diversity of natural resources, I can't express views for the other provinces, since I don't know what Alberta has for variety as far as natural resources go, outside of oil and other fossil fuels.

In any case, I'm glad you toned down your posts and brought actual arguments to the table, so we could have a constructive discussion. Everyone's a winner here, I didn't think the inequity between AB and QC was that big, I'd complain too if I were you. For my part, I'll keep believing that if we had our own country and still be running that kind of deficit, we'd be forced to find better ways to generate money from our resources (which we're already working on, I don't know if you've heard of the "Plan Nord"?), and/or we'd end up spending it better by giving up some programs (I don't like how free our education is or 7$/day daycares either...).

Bottom line is Alberta has a stronger economy than Quebec. For now. But everyone knows economy fluctuates with time, so maybe in 10 years or 100 years, tables will be turned, and then, you'll be the ones benefiting from Quebec's riches, will you still be complaining then?

[dogpiss]

One of the thing I just thought of, which really makes a case against seperation, would be relations with the international community. It would be a serious logistical pain and a legal nightmare to re-negociate treties with foreign countries. Yes, it could be done, but it would be quite a headache for some period of time. Which is the bigger headache is up to the people of Quebec and the rest of Canada. Call me overly optomistic, but I just can't believe that some kind of greater autonomy or "deal" can't be worked out. To borrow an above reference, a divorce this big would undoubtedly be very messy for both sides. If both sides have enough fortitude, sometimes it's best to 'fake it' for the good of the children even if you can't stand each other.

I'm glad to hear you seem to think there is little chance of a breakup. I'm not anti-seperatist as much as anti-break up. If Quebec were to become a "special administrative region" (akin to Hong Kong in China) maybe this could eventually be a route? I still think that would be a lot better than a 'divorce' and all the pain that comes with it.

I hope for the best for all you Canadian chaps and hope a 'truce' can be found. And when feelings boil over again, have a good shouting and yelling match and at the end of the day decide it's easier to stop fighting and save it for another day

[drynot]

I still think Canada is stronger with Quebec than Quebec would be without Canada. It's the ol' 'United we stand' argument all over again. However you would be hard pressed to convince most separatists (sp?) that point of view. Arguments about what happened in the past don't hold much sway over me. I only hope that whatever slights and outright offences that did occur do not happen again. We would all be much better off if we tried to work together and make things work than Quebec outright leaving confederation. I think there is a financial sh*t storm on the horizon and I think all of North America is going to have to make some sort of stand so we don't all go down together.....

Besides financial reasons though.....Quebec is still a great place and has some wonderful people.

'cept for their hockey teams. Habs suck!