Anyone Still Support Obama After Ndaa?

[sarah_ab]

except my opinion... my opinion is not only always the best opinoin.. but also logical.... its true... its something i've had since birth... the best and logical opinion... it can't be helped... its certainly not genetic, i guess its just a gift.......

[Leilin]

except my opinion... my opinion is not only always the best opinoin.. but also logical.... its true... its something i've had since birth... the best and logical opinion... it can't be helped... its certainly not genetic, i guess its just a gift.......

When opinion is supported by logic, it is still an opinion. Without the logic that supports it, it is meaningless.

It's also important to note that logic often doesn't coincide with fact, either.

[sarah_ab]

ohhh but my logic is always factual, and my opinions are always based on factual logic... this is why you should all vote for me in 2020!!!!

[Diapered Jason]

What private insurance does or does not pay for is a contract matter, probably open to negotiation.

Well, this is actually something you can criticize Obama for, because we are creating mandates for what should be covered under health care coverage without requiring health insurance coverage to be provided by the company, while at the same time requiring you to get health insurance coverage. It is a strange band-aid that does not quite get to the heart of the coverage problem. Still, I think it is better than before as it does reduce cost by covering more preventative care and providing easier access to health insurance. Unfortunately, the shear cost of healthcare has not been addressed at all in this whole debate, which is a much more significant concern when talking about the cost of Medicare/Medicaid as well as the cost of health insurance to employers.

[BoTox]

You have failed to quote where in the constitution it says you can have the government provide all these nonconstitutional services. They are unlawful to the core and therefore the whole debate is invalid. You are, again, assuming it is legal and that fallacy makes your whole argument null and void. I will not accept your premise of these invented rights.

[Leilin]

You have failed to quote where in the constitution it says you can have the government provide all these nonconstitutional services. They are unlawful to the core and therefore the whole debate is invalid. You are, again, assuming it is legal and that fallacy makes your whole argument null and void. I will not accept your premise of these invented rights.

Again, I don't really think this is the place for the debate over the validity of government healthcare. The supreme court will doubtless be deciding that one soon. However, as the law has already been made, it should be imparted equitably, not based on the superstitions of politicians.

[Diapered Jason]

You have failed to quote where in the constitution it says you can have the government provide all these nonconstitutional services. They are unlawful to the core and therefore the whole debate is invalid. You are, again, assuming it is legal and that fallacy makes your whole argument null and void. I will not accept your premise of these invented rights.

That is where you are wrong, because my state already mandates car insurance and it has not been found unconstitutional. With Massachusetts already having the same mandated health coverage law, I doubt the the supreme courts will find this unconstitutional. Sorry, you cannot make the argument that it is unconstitutional without taking away all these insurance laws. Again though, you confuse the word provide with mandate and I think it is deliberate the amount of times you have said it. They are not providing you anything. No, they are forcing you to get something. I hope that clears things up for you again.

[Alexandra]

You have failed to quote where in the constitution it says you can have the government provide all these nonconstitutional services. They are unlawful to the core and therefore the whole debate is invalid. You are, again, assuming it is legal and that fallacy makes your whole argument null and void. I will not accept your premise of these invented rights.

Section 8 of article 1

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

from http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/print_friendly.html?page=constitution_transcript_content.html&title=The%20Constitution%20of%20the%20United%20States%3A%20A%20Transcription

[redneck diaper boy]

Section 8 of article 1

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

from http://www.archives....20Transcription

Yes Congress has the power to tax. The un-Constitutional part, of Obamacare, is it forces individulas to purchase private insurance. Therefore the insurance mandate is unconstitutional. This is not like an auto insurance mandate. You can choose to not operate a motor vehilce on a public highway. You can also, if you have the means, you can self insure. The reason I have auto insurance is I have too much wealth that can be taken in a judgement. I prefer to be healthier in my old age so I pay for part of a group health insurance plan!

[sarah_ab]

mitt romney made it illegal to not habe health insurance if u are a resident of mass.... essentially forcig resodents to purchase health insurance

[redneck diaper boy]

mitt romney made it illegal to not habe health insurance if u are a resident of mass.... essentially forcig resodents to purchase health insurance

I don't like Romney either. He is too much of a liberal. He is the lessor evil when compared to Obama. Romney is not a racist. Obama is a racist. Romney is not a Marxist. Obama is a Marxist. I understand that Romney wrote Obamacare. Romney is the governor of Massachuetts. Massachuetts is a cesspool of digressive liberalism. The liberal elite live in Cape Cod or Martha's Vineyard. (actually Marxist vineyard)!

[Leilin]

Yes Congress has the power to tax. The un-Constitutional part, of Obamacare, is it forces individulas to purchase private insurance. Therefore the insurance mandate is unconstitutional. This is not like an auto insurance mandate. You can choose to not operate a motor vehilce on a public highway. You can also, if you have the means, you can self insure. The reason I have auto insurance is I have too much wealth that can be taken in a judgement. I prefer to be healthier in my old age so I pay for part of a group health insurance plan!

So... you'd be okay with a single-payer system?

[Horndog]

I'm out of this thread.

[redneck diaper boy]

So... you'd be okay with a single-payer system?

I already have the single payer system. I pay for my own!

[Leilin]

I already have the single payer system. I pay for my own!

Did you just delete and repost your comment to bump the thread?

[KittenAB]

I already have the single payer system. I pay for my own!

Are you also okay with paying for everyone else including inflated costs due to collection agencies though? Right now you pay more than double the costs for people unable to pay for their medical costs, often because of misdiagnosed ailments or even uncared for ailments that are avoided by doctors when the patient is able to pay for it.

Note: I don't support the federal insurance idea, but I am also not against it.

[BoTox]

Are you also okay with paying for everyone else including inflated costs due to collection agencies though? Right now you pay more than double the costs for people unable to pay for their medical costs, often because of misdiagnosed ailments or even uncared for ailments that are avoided by doctors when the patient is able to pay for it.

Note: I don't support the federal insurance idea, but I am also not against it.

Any time the government gets involved in something, the price goes up because the ones charging the money know that the elasticity has just increased. Look at school loans and the exponential rise in tuition.

Another thing, when you pay your own bills instead of insurance, you can often negotiate MUCH lower bills. Been there, done that, saved 60%. Also, take a vested interest in your own health, be your own advocate because so many people just take a single opinion as gospel and take the pill they are given. I've refused medications when the side effects where bad and the benefit was minimal. I rarely take an antibiotic because they can't help the cold or the flu. A virus can't be cured, it must run its course!

Also, insurance was never meant to pay for every little thing. It was developed as a way to keep catastrophic illness or injury from financially ruining you. Now, it has been expanded and bloated to the point that everyone thinks that someone else paying for their responsibility is a right. Don't even get me started on the 30 year Fluke that thinks we should pay her $3,000 so she can have sex in college! Birth control pills are WAY cheaper than that, maybe $10 every 4 weeks, $130 a year. You can probably get them at the health department for free!

Single payer is a mistake. There needs to be real, cross-state-lines competition for customer dollars. Health savings accounts puts people back in charge of how they spend their money and gets a tax incentive to do so.

[Diapered Jason]

And the health debate rages on. I am going to level with you 100% when I say I do not know what the best solution to the health care problem is, but I will bring certain things to your attention.

The first is I think you meant inelasticity, not elasticity in your first sentence. An elastic good would mean that if there is an increase in price, there is a significant loss in demand.

The second thing is the single-payer system in Canada and European countries has resulted in only 1/10 of the cost here in the U.S.. I also want to question how you think there is a correlation between student loans supplied now by the government instead of through an intermediary bank and college tuition, when the actual cause is cuts to public education by the states.

The third is the $3000 quoted is actually the cost over the time in law school pertaining to the treatment of the ovarian cyst not covered by the insurance companies. This not only includes the birth control pills, but the treatment and therapies as well.

[Alexandra]

For the love of the gods I give up this forum needs to die so I'm done posting on this topic I hope any of the other sensible people on here will follow my lead because any sort of meaningful political debate is lost thanks to people like redneck and botox I say lets just see where the chips fall this fall no point in trying to teach thoose who not only refuse to learn but in fact scoff at your attempts and pretend like your attacking them

[redneck diaper boy]

I am one of those persons that learns from life's mistakes. I voted for Jimmy Carter in 1976 because he gave us hope and called for change. We got change: Double digit inflation, double digit unemployment and double digit interest rates and a fake oil shortage. My father was right whe he told me to never give a Democrat the time of day. Democrats just want your money and to control you. My father died in 1977 at the age of 54. I have outlived my father but the longer I live, the more respect I have for my parent's teachings.

Obama's healthcare plan is not about the nation's health. Obamacare is about forcing people into government healthcare by driving the private sector out of business. Corporations have to answer to investors. The government just prints more money and the value of the dollar continues to plumit. When Obamacare became law, the price was 800 billion dollars. The Congressional budget office now changed the figures after further study. The real cost of Obamacare is over 1.7 trillion!

You kids need to give up the poison Kool-Aid and try some Tea!

Now some of my entertainment favorites are seeing it my way! Johnny VanZant, Bob Ingram, Gene Simmonds, Hank Wiliams, ZZ Top. I have never met simmonds but the Molly Hatchet and Lynard Skynard live off of sr21

[redneck diaper boy]

I am one of those persons that learns from life's mistakes. I voted for Jimmy Carter in 1976 because he gave us hope and called for change. We got change: Double digit inflation, double digit unemployment and double digit interest rates and a fake oil shortage. My father was right whe he told me to never give a Democrat the time of day. Democrats just want your money and to control you. My father died in 1977 at the age of 54. I have outlived my father but the longer I live, the more respect I have for my parent's teachings.

Obama's healthcare plan is not about the nation's health. Obamacare is about forcing people into government healthcare by driving the private sector out of business. Corporations have to answer to investors. The government just prints more money and the value of the dollar continues to plumit. When Obamacare became law, the price was 800 billion dollars. The Congressional budget office now changed the figures after further study. The real cost of Obamacare is over 1.7 trillion!

You kids need to give up the poison Kool-Aid and try some Tea!

Now some of my entertainment favorites are seeing it my way! Johnny VanZant, Bob Ingram, Gene Simmonds, Hank Wiliams, ZZ Top. I have never met simmonds but the Molly Hatchet and Lynard Skynard live off of sr21 The last time I saw Charlie Daniels play was in Orlando for 2 years ago

The old rockers will come out and play and talk about their grandkids. People tend to get their heads together when they age. I was hoping Ted Nugent would run for President

[Leilin]

Don't even get me started on the 30 year Fluke that thinks we should pay her $3,000 so she can have sex in college! Birth control pills are WAY cheaper than that, maybe $10 every 4 weeks, $130 a year. You can probably get them at the health department for free!

And this is why you should stop getting ALL of your opinions from Rush Limbaugh. Not a single word of that waste of typing energy, other than Fluke's name and age, was based in fact or even based in opinions surrounding facts. You should really not talk about things that you are so obviously ignorant of. People might think you're stupid, or something.

I bolded every statement that you made that was the opposite of fact so you can bother to do even a modicum of research before saying something so retardedly, pants-on-head stupid again.

Somehow, I don't think it will be effective, but that's okay. 'Tis better to have outed a baldfaced lie than to let it sit and fester like so much other utter crap that you've spewed in this thread.

Redneck, I've given up on. He made an ignorant quip and then when nobody responded to it, he deleted and reposted that quip just to try to get attention and bump the thread. He is a troll and is no longer worth my time.

[BoTox]

And this is why you should stop getting ALL of your opinions from Rush Limbaugh. Not a single word of that waste of typing energy, other than Fluke's name and age, was based in fact or even based in opinions surrounding facts. You should really not talk about things that you are so obviously ignorant of. People might think you're stupid, or something. I bolded every statement that you made that was the opposite of fact so you can bother to do even a modicum of research before saying something so retardedly, pants-on-head stupid again. Somehow, I don't think it will be effective, but that's okay. 'Tis better to have outed a baldfaced lie than to let it sit and fester like so much other utter crap that you've spewed in this thread. Redneck, I've given up on. He made an ignorant quip and then when nobody responded to it, he deleted and reposted that quip just to try to get attention and bump the thread. He is a troll and is no longer worth my time.

If I hear Rush at all, it is only for a few minutes and I hardly hear him once a week. He is much more civil than Bill Maher, who is the most offensive to women that I've heard in a long time. The things he says about Sara Palin, Ann Coulter and Michelle Bachmann can't hold a candle to the spewings of Limbaugh.

I have paid for birth control pills and they are not that expensive, especially if it is generic and the 3 month pack. I do know that the health department in my area gives out birth control and it is not limited to condoms. You merely need to qualify. So, which part did I lie about? For goodness sake, at least act like it is real money and shop around for the best price.

Fluke is a 30 year old self proclaimed reproductive rights advocate, giving ancedotal statements, who intentionally chose to attend a Catholic school, which has moral and religious objections to birth control. With each right, comes a responsibility. If she wasn't hand picked to be the poster child for the cause, I don't know what is. At 30, she is far from the typical college student.

[Leilin]

I have paid for birth control pills and they are not that expensive, especially if it is generic and the 3 month pack.

What doctor gave you a perscription for Birth Control, or is this the part of the conversation that you pretend it is available OTC?

http://health.costhe...trol-pills.html

Fluke is a 30 year old self proclaimed reproductive rights advocate

You realize that's redundant, right?

So, which part did I lie about?

Her motivation, the prices of Birth Control, the "fact" that you have to pay for it, the cost of the pills, and the supposition that a college student can typically get Birth Control for free.

For goodness sake, at least act like it is real money and shop around for the best price.

For goodness sake, at least try to act as if you've even read the woman's statements before going all righteous misogynist on her.

[KittenAB]

Any time the government gets involved in something, the price goes up because the ones charging the money know that the elasticity has just increased. Look at school loans and the exponential rise in tuition.

Another thing, when you pay your own bills instead of insurance, you can often negotiate MUCH lower bills. Been there, done that, saved 60%. Also, take a vested interest in your own health, be your own advocate because so many people just take a single opinion as gospel and take the pill they are given. I've refused medications when the side effects where bad and the benefit was minimal. I rarely take an antibiotic because they can't help the cold or the flu. A virus can't be cured, it must run its course!

Also, insurance was never meant to pay for every little thing. It was developed as a way to keep catastrophic illness or injury from financially ruining you. Now, it has been expanded and bloated to the point that everyone thinks that someone else paying for their responsibility is a right. Don't even get me started on the 30 year Fluke that thinks we should pay her $3,000 so she can have sex in college! Birth control pills are WAY cheaper than that, maybe $10 every 4 weeks, $130 a year. You can probably get them at the health department for free!

Single payer is a mistake. There needs to be real, cross-state-lines competition for customer dollars. Health savings accounts puts people back in charge of how they spend their money and gets a tax incentive to do so.

I grant you that the government impact on prices has a detriment, this was not, however, my point. My point was that there is a flaw in the system, one which set us over the tipping point. Correcting it by pushing another tipping point, or by ignoring it completely, is not a viable or intelligent solution. The prices are a lag effect creating a cycle that increases them even more, if we trace it to the beginnings it was caused by the same effect in educational costs. Push it all the way back and the tipping point that started the entire chain reaction is actually even more inane than all of those, a lack of public education ... but not public education funding mind you. Basically, we stopped expecting teachers to teach and yet gave in to their demands for more money .... thus the higher institutions increased their prices as well, then they got subsidized to try to help the students, which resulted in the institutions increasing their costs more, eventually making schooling for doctors extremely costly. To recoup these costs they had to start charging more for things that cost very little, which lead to subsidies from the government to help patients, and then the administration at the medical facilities got greedy and started charging more knowing they could get more subsidies.

The solution will not be easy at all, not nearly as easy as the one grain of sand that created the mess. Because of so many aspects being intertwined (a result of an advanced society) a lot has to be unraveled at the same time in order to fix anything. This is why I don't like bandaid legislation, one thing Obama seems fond of. The key to solving these problems is the unraveling, and the reason Ron Paul would have been beneficial to finding a viable solution ... but that final hope is gone. We are spiraling out of control, with religious zealots trying to reduce education in many ways, politicians trying to skim as much as they can for their pockets, and unions taking advantage of statistics by altering their meaning, and greedy administration that is seeing people as gold mines. The irony though is that it's not the costs that are hurting patients, it's the doctors, man of which like to stereotype ailments in bad ways or even push patients to untested and unproven "cures" like homeopathy. Ironically, none of this is really because of insurance companies, which have been demonized to take eyes away from the more complex problem. People like simple, easy, and unintelligent answers, much like "god dun it", so they don't have to think about the matter. Health insurance is the far left's "god dun it" response, but the poor is the far right's "god dun it" response. All in all, we need to stop thinking in dichotomies and binaries, stop ignoring all the influences, otherwise we are just going to crash and that's a scary thought.