Wow! I Finally Agree With Prezbo!

[AutieAB]

They would happily kill every single one of us if they could. When you run into that kind of intense hatred and fanaticism there is only one course of action... kill them before they kill you.

Of course, "they" would probably say the same about you (as an American). They're likely wrong, and so are you

We need to seriously buy you a Jump to Conclusions Mat.

Office Space references FTW

[Darkfinn]

Of course, "they" would probably say the same about you (as an American). They're likely wrong, and so are you

I'm sorry... please elaborate on exactly what America did to deserve the 9/11 attacks? I must have missed that part of the news.

Do you have family members currently deployed in the combat zone? Do you have friends who have been wounded by IEDs? Have you sat down with any soldiers returning from the front lines and taken time to listen to their stories of what it is really like over there? Because the real war isn't shown on the news.

I'm thinking the answer is no... otherwise you would have an entirely different point of view.

[AutieAB]

I'm sorry... please elaborate on exactly what America did to deserve the 9/11 attacks? I must have missed that part of the news.

Erm... Huh!? How the f*** does what I said imply that the USA deserved 9/11? The internet seriously needs a new version of Godwins law for the 21st century that states:

"As an online conversation grows longer, the probability of an assertion being made that a participant thinks that America deserved 9/11 approaches one."

Seriously poor debating point if you think I'm gonna yield and let that kind of manipulative bullshit go unchallenged! Invoking the "you're just anti-American" or "you think American deserved 9/11" argument makes you look nothing but silly and loses you credibility in a debate.

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Anyway, read the bit of your post that I quoted again. You said that "[islamic extremists] would happily kill every single one of us if they could."

To which, I said that "[islamic extremists] would probably say the same about you (as an American)." As well you know, as you asserted that their aim is to wipe out America, the extremists assert in return that America and the rest of the western world aim to wipe out Islam. Both statements are obviously stupid as hell and wrong. Most Muslims have no desire to wipe out America, most American's have no desire to wipe out the Muslim world, hence: "They're likely wrong, and so are you."

[Darkfinn]

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Anyway, read the bit of your post that I quoted again. You said that "[islamic extremists] would happily kill every single one of us if they could."

To which, I said that "[islamic extremists] would probably say the same about you (as an American)." As well you know, as you asserted that their aim is to wipe out America, the extremists assert in return that America and the rest of the western world aim to wipe out Islam. Both statements are obviously stupid as hell and wrong. Most Muslims have no desire to wipe out America, most American's have no desire to wipe out the Muslim world, hence: "They're likely wrong, and so are you."

But see... you are misquoting me.

I did say that ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS would happily kill every single one of us if they could, which is a true statement.

You twisted my words by using "they" and making it seem like I am saying that all Muslims want to kill Americans, which is not a true statement.

Get it straight. I am not trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush... I am merely saying that there is a LARGE faction within the religion that wants us all dead. Which is an obviously proven fact.

If by "they" you mean Islamic Extremists, then no... I am not wrong in saying that "they" want to kill us all.

[AutieAB]

Gonna try one last time to make myself clear before I give up since we're way off the OP and this is a debate that would go on forever...

1) American's who think there is a "large faction" within the Muslim religion (your words, definitely not misquoted) that seek the destruction of America are wrong. The reality is that it's a tiny group of nutcases.

2) Muslims who think there is a large faction of Americans/westerners/Christians/whatever who seek the destruction of the Muslim world are wrong. The reality is that it's a tiny group of nutcases.

[Darkfinn]

You know that Al-Queda is just one of many Islamic Militant groups... right?

US State Dept. List of Foreign Terrorist Organizations

[KittenAB]

But see... you are misquoting me.

I did say that ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS would happily kill every single one of us if they could, which is a true statement.

You twisted my words by using "they" and making it seem like I am saying that all Muslims want to kill Americans, which is not a true statement.

Get it straight. I am not trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush... I am merely saying that there is a LARGE faction within the religion that wants us all dead. Which is an obviously proven fact.

If by "they" you mean Islamic Extremists, then no... I am not wrong in saying that "they" want to kill us all.

Tunnel vision, one sided thinking, you sound a lot like a famous German. All, and I do mean all, religious groups have extremists like this, some are put in check because the laws of the land the live in prevent them from doing such, yet we still get Waccos once in a while.

[sarah_ab]

Wow after reading the latest posts, i feel dumber ....

but i do want to thank you for many of you have made me realize how good of a person i am.....

[Darkfinn]

All, and I do mean all, religious groups have extremists like this,

Nay, I say nay...

The last time I checked the religious extremists in the USA just want to live in a compound, marry their children off at the age of 12, stop paying taxes, and all commit suicide together. Hey! I live in a state that was founded by a "cult of religious extremists". Yet they don't really bother anyone. 3000 people didn't die at Waco. Hijacking airliners and killing thousands of innocent civilians in one coordinated stroke is a whole 'nother ball game. Everyone seems to focus on the WTC, but let's not forget about the plane that hit the Pentagon and the other one that was aiming for the Capitol (brought down by true Patriots). This wasn't just an attack on civilians, they were out to decapitate our entire government... and it's a miracle that they didn't succeed.

[KittenAB]

Nay, I say nay...

The last time I checked the religious extremists in the USA just want to live in a compound, marry their children off at the age of 12, stop paying taxes, and all commit suicide together. Hey! I live in a state that was founded by a "cult of religious extremists". Yet they don't really bother anyone. 3000 people didn't die at Waco. Hijacking airliners and killing thousands of innocent civilians in one coordinated stroke is a whole 'nother ball game. Everyone seems to focus on the WTC, but let's not forget about the plane that hit the Pentagon and the other one that was aiming for the Capitol (brought down by true Patriots). This wasn't just an attack on civilians, they were out to decapitate our entire government... and it's a miracle that they didn't succeed.

You need to pay closer attention then. Also, here in the US the civilians are suppose to be the government. Now, to look at Waco closer, if all they were interested in was what you said (which is probably worse than death anyway for the children) then why were they armed to the skull? Why was it all rigged with explosives? ... and why were they chanting about destroying our government? Seems they were more of a threat than the few in the Middle East because, and here's where you are failing to see the real problem, they were right here in the US and our laws were being upheld so were untouchable until the last minute when it was too late. Right now all you have supported is that we should ban all religions in the US to prevent further incidents, and I do mean all, is that what you want? Every religion has it's violent extremists, even my own, but the government gives us the power to control ours by educating people as to the beneficial side instead. You are essentially advocating that people remain ignorant of the Muslim religion and ignorance is not bliss, it's dangerous, dangerous enough to create violent extremists.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

What seems to be missing in all of the talk about this are straight answers. I know of 5 Muslim groups. Sunni, Shi'a, Sufi, Drous and Wahabi. The talk on the Right about this "mosque" which is more of a cultural center that happens to have a mosque does not identify these groups or to which this installation belongs. If the Shi'a are so bad, why did we go to war to destroy a secular governemnt in Iraq only to replace it with a Shi'ite one. Do you know where the home of Shi'a Islam is? In the 1400's Baghdad welcomed the Turks so that they would not be Shi'ized by the Persians. On the other hand, It was Grand Ayatollah Montizeri who mad a speech in the Iranian Parliament ripping the 911 terrorists a new one. So the Right has no claim against the Shi'ites, having forgotten the 52 hostages long enough to install them in power in Iraq and setting themselves up for a fall when the Iranian Mullahs and Ayatollahs put the Iraqi people to "the question": "Who do you love more; Allah or the Infidel Invader? [these folks are still living the Crusades]" at a time of their choosing. Sufi are very pacific. Drous are trusted enough by Israel to serve as armed border guards. So that leaves the Sunni, who were our allies up until the Iraq war when we betrayed them and the Iraqi Christians to the Shi-ites, and the Wahabi. It is this last that the 911 terrorists were.

I would think, given who supported what, there could be no rational objection to a Shi'a, Drous or Sufi center. Please note that the Right lumps all Muslims into a packaged deal so that, If you do not know who is who, you would not be able to find out. This is a covert attack on All Muslims. Beyond that, it damages the Right's credibility. That could convert a 60 seat gain in November to about a 15 to 30 All the Democrats have to do is ask "Do you really trust the same bunch that told us that there were WMD in Iraq? How did that work out? "

Now here is the real story that nobody is getting. It appears as if the mosque is close to being a done deal. At that point all the talk has gone for naught. This means that this whole issue is a distraction and paints the Right as Quixotic at best and BS'ers at worst. This keeps attention away from things like the economy , deficits/debt and government growth, which was the stong points that the Right had to offer. Now the more these roots of the Tea Party are not discussed, the less attention they get so that fire can cool down. Beyond that, by not being accurate, clear and concise and letting their credibility deteriorate. The Right plays into the hands of the Administration.

It is also telling that the Right trots out the "sevsitivity" word when they have attacked the Left since before God was born for being feelings-oriented. I am sure the Left can make big points with that, too

This is a loser for the Right on so many levels that if it was not a Media-Administration plot, it should be.

[Darkfinn]

Umm... the only reason we went back into Iraq is b/c Dubya wanted to finish his Daddy's war and line his (and Cheney's and Rice's) pockets with oil dollars. Saddam is on record as hating the Muslim extremist groups just as much as we do, because they were a threat to his power as well.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

I think there were multiple motivations, Finishing GHW's war was no doubt one of them. As to lining pockets. Anyone with an ounce of forethought would know that that was a loser. The $7Gig no-bid deal that Halaberton got probably cost them more than they made. I think that the major impetus came from a shadowy "think" tank called "American Century" whose website I actually saw and was some vague imperialistic group of, for all I can tell, lunatics

You are only about the fourth person to get the Hussein-extremist relationship correct. This was discussed on Fox News the week before the invasion and it was stated that the extremists were operating in the American and Kurdish controlled no-fly zone and the Fox people did not argue that point. What made that war less in our interest was that Hussein was a natural and factual enemy of Iran, which was to our advantage. Why do you think GHW and Israel did not take Hussein out in the first place? Al Qeada In Iraq was so an inept group, having nothing to do with the real AQ; only cashing in on the name, that Bin Laden wanted nothimg to do with them.

[WallaWalla]

http://www.slate.com/id/2263334

This kind of capitulation needs to be fought consistently. But here is exactly how not to resist it. Take, for example, the widely publicized opinion of Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. Supporting those relatives of the 9/11 victims who have opposed Cordoba House, he drew a crass analogy with the Final Solution and said that, like Holocaust survivors, "their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted." This cracked tune has been taken up by Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, who additionally claim to be ventriloquizing the emotions of millions of Americans who did not suffer bereavement. It has also infected the editorial pages of the normally tougher-minded Weekly Standard, which called on President Obama to denounce the Cordoba House on the grounds that a 3-to-1 majority of Americans allegedly find it "offensive."

Where to start with this part-pathetic and part-sinister appeal to demagogy? To begin with, it borrows straight from the playbook of Muslim cultural blackmail. Claim that something is "offensive," and it is as if the assertion itself has automatically become an argument. You are even allowed to admit, as does Foxman, that the ground for taking offense is "irrational and bigoted." But, hey—why think when you can just feel? The supposed "feelings" of the 9/11 relatives have already deprived us all of the opportunity to see the real-time footage of the attacks—a huge concession to the general dulling of what ought to be a sober and continuous memory of genuine outrage. Now extra privileges have to be awarded to an instant opinion-poll majority. Not only that, the president is urged to use his high office to decide questions of religious architecture!

Nothing could be more foreign to the spirit and letter of the First Amendment or the principle of the "wall of separation." In his incoherent statement, Foxman made the suggestion that it might be all right if the Cordoba House was built "a mile away." He appears to be unaware that an old building at the site is already housing overflow from the nearby Masjid al-Farah mosque.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

I agree. How long can one claim to be the victim of bigotry as the ADL has while allowing it to be all right if one agrees with the bigots? In psychological terms that is called "egocentrism", in philosophical terms it is called "lack of integrity", in fancy terms it is called "slef-absorbed" and in plain speech it is called "being a God damn hypocrite".

Beyond that to allow any validity to any feelings in the context of a debate is "The Fallacy of the Appeal to Emotion" or "emotionalism". The problem with this is that we do not know the source of the emotion. To allow it sets a bad precident. To extend it to irrational emotions? What would Galileo say? What is next; an appeal to faith?, to authority? It destroys the very fabric of debate and of knowledge

Now, the fact is, we know little about the facts of the center/mosque. That it is called Cordoba, after an Islamic conquest, and some other things are troubling and if this Imam is favorable to Hamas or other recognized terrorist groups then this thing should not be allowed. The same is true if it is a Wahabi or other virulant group such as Islamic Jihad or specifically Hezb-Allah.

However, by doing the emotionalism thing. the oppostions middies the waters, distracts from more pressing issues and gives makes themselves look like a group of twerps. I would rather be a competent "bad guy" than a nincompoop "good guy". The key operative phrase being "nincompoop".

If you claim to be on the right side of an issue and are, then reality favors you. But you have to use it. What is dumber than being in the right and acting like a princess without a tiara? If you are in the right. exploit the facts, use the situation to enlighten. fight for clarity. Not only will you win this day but, by enhancing your credibility, set yourself up to win tomorrow's battle and the ones after that. Ultimately your word becomes gold and who does not want that?

At this point, I see no reason to not allow this thing to go forward. That mey change if I find facts to the contrary.

[XyXy]

I just can't believe the ignorance and irrational hatred of some people here, whom I consider to be my fellow countrymen/women! I have news for you. Muslims were not responsible for 9/11. Terrorists who happened to be Muslim were. If they were wearing red polo shirts at the time, should we ban all red polo shirts from being worn at ground zero? It's the same logic guys! Muslims were also killed in the 9-11 attacks, and I'm sure that many Muslims are just as angry and upset about it. Muslims are not "Them", they are as much "Us" as Christians, Buddhists, Atheists and any other people who are fortunate enough to live here. We are a melting pot people, and nobody is privileged over another! I happened to be just out of basic training when the attacks took place, and I served 6 years, including in the combat zone. As such, I firmly support ANY and all religions to build their buildings wherever it is legal. To find myself in a country that would oppose one or more religions for political expediency would disappoint and scare me enough that I might disown it and find another more equitable and just country to live in. I didn't fight for our country just to see the principles which we were founded on to be overturned so haphazardly, and it disgusts and infuriates me that my fellow Americans want to do this!

On another angle, I am a non-believer, and think that all religions are dangerous and divisive. So, if we the people decided for some asinine reason to make ground zero a place of no faith building, I would not be sad, but it must ban all religions, not just cherrypick whatever one happens to be the least popular at the time. All or nothing I say, anything else is discrimination and will lead to our downfall.

For those who feel "insulted" that Muslims want to build a mosque on ground zero, I'm sorry, but your feelings are really just being caused by your ignorance, and your enlightenment on this topic will help ease your unjustified anger. We have to evolve and become wise people! Otherwise we have no hope of living together as a species into the promised land.

[sarah_ab]

funny thing is its not a mosque, i mean there happens to be a room of prayer in it.. but there is a theater, a pool a gym, class rooms, a day care its basically like a ymca, but with a prayer room... its a cultural center people.. what better place to put a building with the purpose of educating and welcoming people than a site that saw such hatred and destruction...

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

I just can't believe the ignorance and irrational hatred of some people here, whom I consider to be my fellow countrymen/women! I have news for you. Muslims were not responsible for 9/11. Terrorists who happened to be Muslim were. If they were wearing red polo shirts at the time, should we ban all red polo shirts from being worn at ground zero? It's the same logic guys! Muslims were also killed in the 9-11 attacks, and I'm sure that many Muslims are just as angry and upset about it. Muslims are not "Them", they are as much "Us" as Christians, Buddhists, Atheists and any other people who are fortunate enough to live here. We are a melting pot people, and nobody is privileged over another! I happened to be just out of basic training when the attacks took place, and I served 6 years, including in the combat zone. As such, I firmly support ANY and all religions to build their buildings wherever it is legal. To find myself in a country that would oppose one or more religions for political expediency would disappoint and scare me enough that I might disown it and find another more equitable and just country to live in. I didn't fight for our country just to see the principles which we were founded on to be overturned so haphazardly, and it disgusts and infuriates me that my fellow Americans want to do this!

On another angle, I am a non-believer, and think that all religions are dangerous and divisive. So, if we the people decided for some asinine reason to make ground zero a place of no faith building, I would not be sad, but it must ban all religions, not just cherrypick whatever one happens to be the least popular at the time. All or nothing I say, anything else is discrimination and will lead to our downfall.

For those who feel "insulted" that Muslims want to build a mosque on ground zero, I'm sorry, but your feelings are really just being caused by your ignorance, and your enlightenment on this topic will help ease your unjustified anger. We have to evolve and become wise people! *Otherwise we have no hope of living together as a species into the promised land.*

or as the rightful inhabitants of the stars. But then, there are two alternatives and one choice: to kneel before the heavens or claim them as rightfully ours.

Thank you for your service: On two battlefields

[AutieAB]

funny thing is its not a mosque, i mean there happens to be a room of prayer in it.. but there is a theater, a pool a gym, class rooms, a day care its basically like a ymca, but with a prayer room... its a cultural center people.. what better place to put a building with the purpose of educating and welcoming people than a site that saw such hatred and destruction...

IIRC, it's supposed to be a multi-faith facility, too.