Pampers In Trouble?

[:dlb]

Has anyone been following pampers since they redesigned a few months ago? Back then I heard they sucked, leaked like crazy, and not as good as before. I did a search today to read more updated opinions and discovered the situation is even worse. It looks like pampers is becoming the next Toyota. http://detnews.com/article/20100506/BIZ/5060444/Feds-investigate-Pampers-after-diaper-complaints

[square_duck]

I can see why this would happen. The added SAP and thinner design (IE removal of extra fluff padding) would cause this. The SAP needs time to work, and the fluff padding gave it the time needed to do so. with out the 'acquisition layer' of fluff, any wetness just pools and puddles making for leaks while the SAP is trying to do it's job. Finding something better to act as an acquisition layer would help this, but the trade off would be more bulk...oh well.

You would think that after making this product for over 30+ years they would have figured this out by now.

[Honu]

On the contrary, I think they suck up urine faster and do hold more. The only valid "criticism" of them I can see is that they have to sag to work properly. They are designed to do that and the new Dry Max diapers really swell up!

There are plenty, if not more, positive opinions out there. Most of the negative ones I read were about rashes.

[babykeiff]

P&G are continually facing a barrage of complaints from the 'Green' group, who try and find any excuse to force parents to ditch disposable diapers in favor of 'green' cloth diapers. The common complaint, and has existed since the introduction of SAP, is that the particles cause chemical burns, suck water from a babies skin and the plastic causes increased heat in the diaper area. Most of these statements are without any proof.

The new attack and complaint on the P&G Dry Max range is, in my opinion, scare mongering.

http://seventhgeneration.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/seventhgeneration.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1&p_created=1135021568&p_topview=1

In a diaper, pulp is not needed, but is used to provide a hold for the SAP. Pulp is actually slower at absorbing liquid than SAP.

Pampers diapers absorb more than five times the average baby would produce, but it is the laziness of parents that force the baby to endure rash etc. It was this that introduced diaper rash (clamidia) to the western world. If a baby is in a cloth diaper, cold wetness will go back onto its skin, and the baby will notice, cry and get changed. In a disposable, the portion of wetness that goes back on to its skin is so much less, the baby doesn't notice it, and the diaper is not changed. Disposable diapers as a whole, has increased the laziness in parenthood who leaves their child in its own mess much longer, and then complains/sues P&G! If you doubt me, I refer to the McD coffee case.

[Darkfinn]

It is a side effect of diaper manufacturers continually trying to make their product thinner. There is such a thing as too thin. Once sales have dropped far enough they will redesign again and go back to something that worked better. Staying on top of the market is a constant battle of good and bad ideas... you just have to hope that your previous good ones are enough to save you from the bad ones.

[TheMagicDragon]

To the above information I would like to add this:

Pulp (cellulose fiber) is an adsorbant (moisture adheres to it) while SAP is an osmotic absorbant. So the adsorbant draws wetness along the channel of flow, while the polymer osmotically draws moisture within itself to acquire it. Skin can be easily irritated (dehadrated) when moisture is removed from it aggressively as in having contact with the polyacrylate crystals. This is why a "sucky" diaper (like Depends) really sucks to wear for prolonged time. Its also why people love diapers such as, for example, Molicares which have a good amount of pulp in them as well as SAP.

It may be interesting to note that both of the above diaper components have long been used as soil ammendments. Too much SAP can kill a vascular plant, including a tough, hardy, woody plant (tree), by osmotically "burning" its roots (root hair cells). We usually restrict the ammendment (thorough, even incorporation) of SAP to potting soil to no more than 10% to 20%. Any more than this, including straight SAP - without an appropriate buffer (cellulose fiber) - is bad for sensitive living cells.

Please take this information for what it is.

[Bettypooh]

I haven't followed this or heard a thing about it- but I do know that when someone changes a well-liked product there will be many complaints. It takes time to get used to the new product. Unfortunately 'new' is often no better- just cheaper or easier to produce. Maybe the market wants thinness but when the cost for that becomes a lack of capacity you've gone too far. There's a lot of truth in the old saying of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

(Rant warning) The worst part is that if one manufacturer gets away with cheapening their product, their competition usually soon follows because it thinks it's going to lose market share This is due to the 'bean counter' mentality used to run companies today which sees only the bottom line on the ledger. There is no place left for anyone to do well by producing the best product possible People have been indoctrinated to the wrong way of thinking and in the end it has cost us more than it has saved. Change for change's sake is never an improvement, but it often occurs as departments and people try to justify their continued employment by doing something frequently enough to get past the accountants one more time (End of rant)

My main comment here is about the fillers. I'm no expert but in my limited experience the pulp absorbs far faster than SAP. The old super-thin Ambeze diapers I had were all pulp- SAP wasn't used back then. The total capacity sucked, but as long as you didn't approach that amount you could flood away with nary a drop leaking The only other diaper I've tried that will do this is Bambino's (though other premium diapers may be as good; I just haven't tried them). It has plenty of bulk which is probably pulp of some kind, and we know it's chock-full of SAP

It seems to me that the "perfect" diaper would have just enough pulp to wick wetness quickly, with enough SAP to make for good capacity. Since rate of flow varies among individuals this becomes an impossible balance to achieve with just one diaper. Add the varying shape and movements of the individual and it's plain to see that there is a need for several different diapers in every size- even with the commonality of babies When you consider the much larger variables of adult shapes, flows, and movements it's easy to see why there are so many different opinions of which adult diaper is the "best" To each there is one different "best" with someone else's "best" falling short.

One final thought on the OP: There is no going back to an old product when a new one is introduced- the market won't stand that and the competition will rip you to shreds in their advertising if you try The only way to save the day in that situation is to reintroduce the 'old' product as yet another 'new' product with minor changes that do not affect it's performance. Don't worry, most people won't notice that they've been suckered- they've been indoctrinated to believe hype over truth, so as long as they feel good they won't notice a thing

Bettypooh

[Angela Bauer]

Clearly different people have different opinions about Pampers Swadlers and Cruisers with Dry Max.

I have been using modified Cruisers Size 4 as my usual slip-in disposable pads since Pampers started selling Cruisers. For use as a slip-in pad, the cloth-like outer covering is a benefit because it does not slid around inside the snug cotton knit briefs intended to hold the pad in place. Having tested many baby cloth-like disposables I feel the Cruisers were softer, more flexible and equal or greater in capacity to the others. Long ago I selected Size 4 because they are intended for younger toddlers with hardly any bladder control, kids who still dribble very frequently yet in small volume. Size 5, 6 and 7 are for larger kids who void in less frequent bigger squirts.

Consequently I was very interested when word spread that Dry Max uses a new formulation of SAP that absorbs faster and thus does not need much fluff. I begged my favorite supermarket manager to hold a case of Size 4 Cruisers with Dry Max the minutes those reached the store. As a result I have been using the Dry Max Cruisers for over 3 weeks. They have caused me no skin irritation of any kind.

My form of urinary incontinence is termed "profound" meaning I have no functional sphincter. As urine arrives in my bladder it flows out. Thus I wet as if I were too young to have any bladder control, precisely like kids for whom Size 3 and 4 Cruisers are designed. Of course I wanted to be sure this magic SAP would soak up my wetting fast enough. The first weekend of the test I deliberately drank more water and iced tea during the day than I would while working. Still I never came close to leaking even when I wore the same Size 4 longer than 4 hours. With the original Cruisers I knew I was safe from leaks for 3 hours. Once I wore the new Cruisers at work, I was delighted to be able to avoid a mid-morning change about 10:30am and the mid afternoon change about 3:15pm. So, despite no price increase per Cruiser, I reduced my daily use by 2. For me saving the time was a bigger deal than saving a little cash.

Talking in-person to parents of toddlers as well as other incontinent women who use Cruisers as pads, we are mystified by the negative reports. Diaper rash has not been a problem. Even with kids who are at the larger limit of Size 6, kids who do void in big spurts, leaks are no more an issue than with any disposable. The fact of parenting is that as kids approach being ready for toilet training unless you change their diapers so often the kid is annoyed, leaks will happen. Deal with it.

P&G and Pampers have never advocated Cruisers as a bedtime disposable. That is why Pampers also makes Baby Dry which have not been re-designed. P&G also makes LUVS, that many parents I know find work very well for naps and bed.

Of course a thin mostly SAP disposable is so different than anything a current AB/DL has worn we should expect scorn within our community. Honestly I seriously doubt P&G RD even considered the desires of the AB/DL world when they were inventing Dry Max.

My question to all those who are anti-Dry Max is who of you has actually tried them in contact with your skin while you wet as would an incontinent person?

[timmyc]

Bring back the Pampers of 1985, thick fluffy cute and plasticy

[lil_baby_wet_n_squishy]

Doesn't seem like the negative is coming from the AB/DL community but from people with actual babies that have been using them. It has made the nightly news on all the major TV networks in the NYC area as causing Rashes / Chemicals burns on babies. I won't be surprised if the product gets recalled from the marketplace.

[Bettypooh]

Doesn't seem like the negative is coming from the AB/DL community but from people with actual babies that have been using them. It has made the nightly news on all the major TV networks in the NYC area as causing Rashes / Chemicals burns on babies. I won't be surprised if the product gets recalled from the marketplace.

The first local claim of this just hit the local newspaper here It's likely a chemical or allergic reaction My guess is that they will soon identify the problem component(s), show reams of proof that adequate testing was done prior to marketing, change the irritant(s) in an "improved" version, and offer to swap proof of purchase of the bad product for coupons to get the new product Whether the problems are real or imagined the new product is doomed at this point- they might as well have named it "Edsel" The upside is that the old product will probably be sold off "as-is" through surplus sellers at ridiculously low prices, so those without problems will have a chance to get a bargain

Of course that won't stop the probable class-action lawsuit which won't do much more than make several lawyers richer and tie up the court system Marketing demands that you give the customer what they ask for instead of what they need The customer wanted thinner and they got it- along with the results of a company pushing the edge of the technological envelope to give it to them in hopes of making more profit

Part of whatever blame there is belongs to us In our mad desire to have the newest, latest, and greatest things we have come to accept poor results of the initial offering as being 'normal'. I figured out long ago that it's best to let someone else be the 'Guinea Pig' in order to avoid problems like this

Bettypooh

[Bettypooh]

....The fact of parenting is that as kids approach being ready for toilet training unless you change their diapers so often the kid is annoyed, leaks will happen. Deal with it....

You gotta love Angela's insightful posts We're nowadays pushing babies to become "big kids" so fast that it's ridiculous. We demand thin baby diapers so the child will appear to be potty-trained when they're not - someone please explain to me why this really matters? One of the most refreshing aspects of the ABDL community is that we give childhood the value it deserves- it is a wonderful thing which shouldn't be rushed out of existence just for the sake of the mostly-adult world

Not so long ago there were no bikini swimsuits for young girls because it would be seen as promoting their yet-to-exist sexuality There were no "camo suits" for boys because everyone knew there was no point in it- they weren't going hunting now were they?

Sometimes we force our ideas and concepts onto our children for no good reason at all. IMHO this is the root of many of today's social ills. Maybe someday we will all learn that nature sets the timetable- not us- and that it's stupid to try to force many things beyond how they are supposed to be So what if a child shows diaper bulk? Children wear diapers as long as they need them- is that such a surprise? So what if a child's clothing appears childish? Aren't they still children and not adults yet? How smart are we to not give the proper values to children or to allow then to grow at their own pace whatever it is?

Just like with marketing, you're always going to get what you ask for as soon as it can happen, and the results aren't always going to be what you really wanted, so you'd better be careful and exercise wisdom in what you are asking for

Bettypooh

[Guest Chriskc]

I want my plastic diapers back!