Pavlov's Diaper

[RandomDL]

what exactly is meant by praising a child for using a diaper because i dont know of any instances where a parent has praised a child for using their diaper. im not familiar with psychology but to me it seems that a lot of psychology is just understanding the simplistic nature of things and sometimes applying that nature as an explanation for other things.

[DDude25]

I like how Jim on the Office did this with Dwight and Altoids

[sarah_ab]

example of 'praise' for using a diaper is the way a parent talks to a child while changing their diaper... often in a sweet playful or loving tone, the eye contact made, often some kind of tickling when its over, or a hug and a kiss... all of this the child will associate with a diaper change, andthe only way to get a diaper change is to go to the bathroom in it.

[RandomDL]

ah ok that what they meant.

[sarah_ab]

but you gusy seem to be confusing clasical conditioning with operant conditioning.. as classical conditioning does not involve reinforcement.. thats operant conditioning...

[curiositykilledthecat]

but you gusy seem to be confusing clasical conditioning with operant conditioning.. as classical conditioning does not involve reinforcement.. thats operant conditioning...

I have nothing to add.

[sarah_ab]

I have nothing to add.

not even a comment on me writing gusy and not guys? cause even i am not sure what a gusy is...

[Wetdl]

May already have everything in place already.

Lets face it, when you need to go or need to go bad, it feels good. That feeling of relief IS a reward of sorts.

As to a audible cue associated with it, I sure can hear the sound from the toilet.

I have tried playing back the sound at night when asleep, can't say I have had any success. I don't get too many chances to test the theory.

A horrible thought, could silently wetting my diapers be making me associate silence with wetting

[timmyc]

not even a comment on me writing gusy and not guys? cause even i am not sure what a gusy is...

Isn't that a cutesy nickname for a portion of of ladies panties

[hazardouskink]

i know that i've been sound-conditioned in a way. slightly related.

i ALWAYS pee in the shower. as in, if there is a situation where i dont i feel horribly desperate and have actually involuntarily released my bladder multiple times despite my best efforts otherwise. in any other situation i have a steel bladder. basically, as soon as i hear the shower i start really feeling the need. if i step under the water i basically have no choice but to pee. even if i'm not the one showering i'd better be finding a place to go fast or else.

so yes. it works. just... not always as planned, lol.

[sarah_ab]

i know that i've been sound-conditioned in a way. slightly related.

i ALWAYS pee in the shower. as in, if there is a situation where i dont i feel horribly desperate and have actually involuntarily released my bladder multiple times despite my best efforts otherwise. in any other situation i have a steel bladder. basically, as soon as i hear the shower i start really feeling the need. if i step under the water i basically have no choice but to pee. even if i'm not the one showering i'd better be finding a place to go fast or else.

so yes. it works. just... not always as planned, lol.

haha this reminds me of when i used to work with adults with disabilities, and we would be helping the male clients shower, because some of them needed someone to instruct them on what to do in regards to cleaning etc... and inevitably, the minute some of them stepped into the shower they'd pee all over it!

[curiositykilledthecat]

Well I missed the bad grammar, I must be slipping.

[HuggieBaby]

I like how Jim on the Office did this with Dwight and Altoids

HAHAHA YES!

*windows welcome sound*...

Dwight reaches out hand...

Jim : What are you doing?

Dwight : I....

Jim : What?

Dwight: I don't know....my mouth tastes so bad all of a sudden...

classic jim and dwight...

HuggieBaby

[tris]

The Office makes me sooooo super uncomfortable. Watching it is like. . . not fun for me. I think I relate to Michael too much, in terms of being socially awkward, and thinking that all these people like you, but they really just don't wanna get fired cuz he's the boss.

And as far as peeing in the shower -- every single human does. Even those kids in some desolate, war-torn part of africa who don't get to shower but maybe once or twice a month -- they pee in the shower, too. It's not just a conditioning thing, it's a humans thing.

[BabyJune]

There is something to be said for Classical Conditioning. Every time I hear an alarm clock on television (or any beeping at the frequency of my home alarm clock) it sends chills up my spine and almsot makes me sick. I associate that sound with having to get up early to go to work. It's similar to PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) but it is basically association of something with something else--good or bad.

[babykeiff]

what exactly is meant by praising a child for using a diaper because i dont know of any instances where a parent has praised a child for using their diaper. im not familiar with psychology but to me it seems that a lot of psychology is just understanding the simplistic nature of things and sometimes applying that nature as an explanation for other things.

example of 'praise' for using a diaper is the way a parent talks to a child while changing their diaper... often in a sweet playful or loving tone, the eye contact made, often some kind of tickling when its over, or a hug and a kiss... all of this the child will associate with a diaper change, andthe only way to get a diaper change is to go to the bathroom in it.

That is one example of praise, ie during a diaper change, but the praise I am also referring to is the action, and words of a parent to their child during the time the child is having a bowel movement. ie 'Good boy, who's a good baby - doesn't that feel good' This is normally offered after a meal when burping the child, and when the child is slightly constipated.

As Sarah_ab has stated, the child will associate the praise at diaper change with a diaper change and associate praise with the act of voiding. A young child normally does not correlate 'diaper change' with the need to void. The child also does not associate the discomfort he/she feels in a wet/soiled diaper with the previous event of wetting / voiding

This 'praise' and/or 'encouragement' is part of the normal interaction between parent and child.

[Creepymouse]

There was a story about a Clinic that used both operant and classical conditioning, along with subliminal and hypnotic suggestions, to create lasting incontinence with pleasant feelings towards it. Baby Ray wrote quite a few chapters and went rather in depth into the idea.

Reading this thread got me thinking... there could be several steps made toward a working system of this sort. Bear with me:

A: A small device, perhaps pager-size or smaller. This device would detect an increase in wetness (likely through conductivity in the 'diaper area') and trigger a light electrical impulse on the wearer's skin. Not powerful enough to be unpleasant, just tingly and perhaps even pleasant. This would work best if it could be worked out to cause actual pleasure, even if only a very light feeling like a tickle. I believe this could be made with currently available parts, such as a TENS unit and a microcontroller. Could further be programmed to be USB compatible and download wetting data to a PC, or perhaps even bluetooth enabled.

B: Same device, but capable of detecting whether the voluntary bladder sphincter is tensed or relaxed. If the muscle goes from tense to relaxed, trigger reward. Continue reward while wetness increases.

C: Similar device, combined with a hypnotic/subliminal computer program. If USB or bluetooth enabled, the device could analyze bladder use patterns and give appropriate reward or punishment via verbal suggestions. Encouraging the subject to wet if needed, praising the subject if successful, removing praise (verbal and stimulation) when the subject prevents voiding. Coupled with a theoretical device to analyze eye movement and/or an EEG, could guide the subject deeper into relaxation or trance.

It is my belief that it should be possible to detect some variables about the bladder through the skin. Whether it be electronic, ultrasound, or some other method unknown to me, I don't see why a handheld device couldn't be devised to fill one of these scenarios. I'm fairly certain I could create "A" with two weeks time and enough money for parts. B and C would require research to determine how to sense the bladder's "state".

Even "A" would be a big step, I think, toward a diaper training device. After a period of use as a classical conditioning device (subject receives sensation 'x' while voiding) the device could be set to trigger 'sensation X' at random intervals interspersed along with the usual stimulation. There could be different levels of 'training', beginning with pure conditioning, ending with pure random stimulation (I use the word 'random' loosely, the device would likely be set to be only partially random)

I've got all sorts of ideas swimming through my head now. Gee, thanks... Does anyone know of any research into detecting bladder pressure and or tension from outside the body?

[sarah_ab]

A: A small device, perhaps pager-size or smaller. This device would detect an increase in wetness (likely through conductivity in the 'diaper area') and trigger a light electrical impulse on the wearer's skin. Not powerful enough to be unpleasant, just tingly and perhaps even pleasant. This would work best if it could be worked out to cause actual pleasure, even if only a very light feeling like a tickle. I believe this could be made with currently available parts, such as a TENS unit and a microcontroller. Could further be programmed to be USB compatible and download wetting data to a PC, or perhaps even bluetooth enabled.

anyone see that episode of the cartoon oblongs, where one of the debbies is hideously disfigured and goes to live with milo's family and they have her sharing a room with granny, who has a belt on, and it turns red when she needs her diaper changed..... thats what this made me think of.

[Creepymouse]

anyone see that episode of the cartoon oblongs, where one of the debbies is hideously disfigured and goes to live with milo's family and they have her sharing a room with granny, who has a belt on, and it turns red when she needs her diaper changed..... thats what this made me think of.

Never heard of the show, but it sounds kinda funny.

I did a little research, most of what I found was involving sensors implanted near nerve bundles, but I did run across one reference on biofeedback use for *reversing* incontinence. The page I found suggested it is possible to sense 'bladder activity' using electrodes on the skin, but didn't go further in depth. I wish I could get my hands on a variety of sensors and electrodes to experiment with! I've used a TENS unit just below my navel, and with the right settings, it was actually kinda nice.

Why is it that we never hear about AB or DL urologists?! Is it kinda the same as a plastic surgeon into BE? Actually, I think there must be a few PS doctors that have a breast enlargement fetish, or they wouldn't do the mega sizes like H and up.

*quietly wishes he could invent an AB diaper trainer, and earn enough to get wife breast implants...*

[BabyBat]

I think what alot of people (those who say You don't want to be wetting any time you hear a bell...) are forgetting that the subconscious mind will ALWAYS do what it thinks is the best for you. Now sometimes what it thinks is the best thing can get a little tweaked which is why you can get into some bad emotional situations, but that is another topic.

Point being: if you condition yourself to be incontinent in your diapers then you will not wet yourself out of them (given no outside influences (medical, drugs, etc)) unless maybe you really get off on embarrassment but even then that is what you wanted.

These are the basic principles behind hypnosis/subconscious conditioning:

1) You must truly want the behavior to change, ie: if you really enjoy your cigarettes and you really don't want to stop smoking then no amount of hypnosis will help you. Or if you are on the fence about being incontinent in your diapers but 'just want to try it' then it will also not work.

2) It must not be anything that goes against your core beliefs. The classic, Naked Gun, example: no one could ever hypnotize you to kill someone that you normally would not kill. So if you are in the stage of ABDL where you still have guilt then it probably isn't going to work anyway. For alot of people, in diapers or not, just letting go in public might fall into this category and you would have mixed results.

[Creepymouse]

It is a common fallacy that you can't be hypnotized into something you don't want. A good hypnotist can do a lot more than you would think. It's just that most really good tists would not do such a thing. The key is convincing the mind that 'whatever it is' is a good idea, without the critical factor catching on first. Most people would snap out if asked to do something harmful, but under the right conditions it isn't always so.

[BabyBat]

It is a common fallacy that you can't be hypnotized into something you don't want. A good hypnotist can do a lot more than you would think. It's just that most really good tists would not do such a thing. The key is convincing the mind that 'whatever it is' is a good idea, without the critical factor catching on first. Most people would snap out if asked to do something harmful, but under the right conditions it isn't always so.

I hate to be 'this guy' Creepymouse but this is flat out not true, or poorly stated. Nobody, I don't care how good they are, can get you to do something that violates your core beliefs.

What are your core beliefs? Well, for lack of a better description at the moment, they are what your sub-conscious sees as 'the truth'. There are people who say one thing (for whatever reason, sometimes they are even lying to themselves), but believe differently. I good example of this would be religion. A lot of people say that religion doesn't matter to them (even though to their sub-conscious it does) so they will go through life without it being a major issue, when they get close to 'the end' then they will suddenly get all religious. I am sure that there is a better example out there, but in my tired stupor this is the best I can come of with .

The critical factor that you mentioned is something different entirely. The critical factor is the process in your conscious mind that helps determine how you interpret new information. You are correct in saying that the critical factor is bypassed during hypnosis, that is one of the things that make hypnosis so valuable.

Going back to the hypnosis can't make you do something you wouldn't normally do argument: A reason why this is so confusing is that people have had amazing results in changing their behavior with hypnosis so an apparent conflict exists. Take a smoker (or drinker) as an example. The person has tried quitting before and has had no success, goes to a [good] hypnotist for a couple of sessions, and bam never touches a cigarette again. They KNOW that they want to quit but it appears that nothing can make them quit, then comes in this 'magic' (it isn't magic) and they person never smokes, thereby giving the appearance to some that the hypnotist made the person do something that they thought they could/would never do.

There is no hypnotist on the face of the earth that can make you do something that violates your subconscious, it is never going to happen, ever [using hypnosis anyway, I guess he could hold a gun to your head ]. You eluded to 're-programming' people so that they would accept the suggestion, and this is possible, to a point. Again (starting to get winded here) it has to be something that the subconscious wants. Good hypnotists will always do a pre-talk with their clients, part of that talk is to find out what the client believes about the problem.

Take a client that wants to quit smoking as an example: The hypnotist would ask the client: "Why do you want to quit?" and gauge the persons response. If they fidget and can't come up with a solid reason, or say something along the lines of "My wife wants me to so she made this appointment for me" a good hypnotist will end the session there. They will tell the client thank you for coming in but there is nothing they can do to help that at this stage. If the person is not ready to give up the habit (or accept the habit, as in study habits) then the hypnotist will be fighting an almost impossible battle.

Could the hypnotist breakdown that resistance and make them want to quit? Maybe, but it would depend on the relationship of the hypnotist to the client. Most relationships are 'cold' or there is no pre-existing relationship, which means that the hypnotist will most likely be seen as an enemy (trying to convince them to take away something that they like).

That was much longer than I had intended, and again I do not mean to sound all holier than tho, but I have studied hypnosis a lot (given that hypnotism is not a regulated field, I would wager I have studied it more than a lot of people that are charging for the service, but that is another topic). There are a lot of misconceptions around it and I attempt to clear them up because I think that everyone could benefit from this powerful tool and misconceptions hurt that goal.

To summarize: "All hypnosis is self hypnosis." --Charles Tebbetts

A hypnotist is just a guide, if you are not willing to follow instructions then nothing will happen.

[Syne]

Completely unrelated to the above rant, but...This 'conditioning' is definitely relevant to my interests XD I think I just may have to test it out over a few months or so.

Now to find a good sound...Not something one would hear often, but not never either. Hmmm. Maybe the text noise on my phone, so I can set it to vibrate when I don't feel like wet pants >.>

[Vickie]

For the last few weeks I have been trying this idea.

I hung a bell on the bathroom door so I would hear it whenever I went to the potty. I told others it was so we could hear when the room was available with out having to sit next to the door and wait.

Since wearing a diaper does make it easier I was not too surprised to find myself peeing when I heard the bell. I was surprised how I had to run the the bathroom if I was not in a diaper. It would trigger a need to go. I also have been asked to remove the bell because others have noticed they had to pee when they heard the bell.

The bell does not cause uncontrolled peeing in others or in me. But it would cause the feeling of a strong need to go. In a diaper it works in my sleep. I had to take the bell down for the others.

[BabyBat]

The bell does not cause uncontrolled peeing in others or in me. But it would cause the feeling of a strong need to go. In a diaper it works in my sleep. I had to take the bell down for the others.

Glad to hear of your success Vickie. I think your experience demonstrates what I was attempting to communicate about the protective part of your mind. If you are diapered then your mind knows that it is OK and lets go. If you are not diapered then you still have the urge (conditioning) but the protective part of your mind knows that it is not appropriate and stops you from wetting yourself.

Very interesting that it had such an effect on the others in such a short time.