Who Sets The Standards?

[Angela Bauer]

What a life!

Would you believe there is a site putatively devoted to ABDL communication without judgment and with courtesy.

So after several long-time members of said site, friends going back to 1990 in DPF plus younger pals, invited me to join, I did.

Three days later someone posted that it is standard practice to place a quote at the start of a reply and not at the bottom. When I place the quote at the bottom it confused him.

Going back to the old days when the Internet was only for major universities and a few large corporations, a time when 30 baud was considered broadband, it was agreed most readers remembered what they had written, so with the new material at the start of a message, if they did not need the quote, they did not need to scan past it. I see here and on all the other ABDL sites members do it both ways, without complaints either way.

Was I on vacation when a memo about this was issued by the Person In Charge of Netiquette?

Later in reply to a post by another person there was a remark it is standard to use ( ) and not { } which would have had more credit had the retort spelled the word correctly and not "their" which is an actual word, yet incorrect in this use.

Long ago on-line I stopped using my blue and red pens to correct and proofread as I do constantly at my office.

Strange because in the welcome rules this site requests attention be devoted to correct spelling, instead of the term preferred by proofreaders "standard spelling."

Clearly at 44 I have gone from being a young darling AB gal to being an ossified prig. My fondest dream!

[adriansurley]

I think some people are just too picky. I don't care too much how people 'post' as long as it can be read easily.

[abenas]

I think some people are just too picky. I don't care too much how people 'post' as long as it can be read easily.

Agreed. I'm from the internet generation, so I just read right through the errors/netspeak- and just fix em' in my head. It's no big thing.

At least on this site, you can just pass it off as someone acting babyish!

[guitar_a_goo_goo_ga]

Agreed. I'm from the internet generation, so I just read right through the errors/netspeak- and just fix em' in my head. It's no big thing.

At least on this site, you can just pass it off as someone acting babyish!

LAWLZERS

the whole 1337 talk is annoying but it has it's implications. for example, when i see 1337 text i know that the post is not worth reading and that is how 1337 is useful to me.

u kno rit3?

[BabyDavey]

My belief is that written communication on web forums and the internet in general has taken on a very informal role. In the past (stone age of the internet, bulletin boards, news groups, etc.), connectivity came at a premium. The internet wasn't saturated with people from nearly every different facet of society. As the internet developed and became more accessible, more people started to 'surf' and become more involved in forums, boards and instant messaging, this 'net speak' started to develop. Propelled by SMS (text messages) the use and commonality of it snowballed. Somehow (most likely as less emphasis is put on learning and speaking proper English), net speak started to become the de facto standard of internet communication for a growing number of youth.

Unfortunately, for those of us who believe in the preservation of the English language, it has integrated itself deep into society, our boards and informal communications. Spelling, unfortunately, has followed as well.

While I would not discriminate against those who choose not to properly articulate themselves, I still find it difficult to comprehend what it is they are saying. Realistically, my thoughts are this: If they choose to use this bastardized version of English, I believe that they are limiting their audience. Most people of the previous generations are able to read (and write) effectively. By all accounts, the users of net speak can read proper English, but not write it (or they can write it, but choose not to). Unfortunately, the rest of us have to suffer.

Plain English: Net speak limits your readers. If you want to reach everybody on the board, ditch the net speak and write in a way which your English teacher would like you to.

All this being said, I still read just about anything which sounds interesting - though I find it difficult sometimes.

Sorry for the rant, I just get a little passionate about good English.

[guitar_a_goo_goo_ga]

My belief is that written communication on web forums and the internet in general has taken on a very informal role. In the past (stone age of the internet, bulletin boards, news groups, etc.), connectivity came at a premium. The internet wasn't saturated with people from nearly every different facet of society. As the internet developed and became more accessible, more people started to 'surf' and become more involved in forums, boards and instant messaging, this 'net speak' started to develop. Propelled by SMS (text messages) the use and commonality of it snowballed. Somehow (most likely as less emphasis is put on learning and speaking proper English), net speak started to become the de facto standard of internet communication for a growing number of youth.

Unfortunately, for those of us who believe in the preservation of the English language, it has integrated itself deep into society, our boards and informal communications. Spelling, unfortunately, has followed as well.

While I would not discriminate against those who choose not to properly articulate themselves, I still find it difficult to comprehend what it is they are saying. Realistically, my thoughts are this: If they choose to use this bastardized version of English, I believe that they are limiting their audience. Most people of the previous generations are able to read (and write) effectively. By all accounts, the users of net speak can read proper English, but not write it (or they can write it, but choose not to). Unfortunately, the rest of us have to suffer.

Plain English: Net speak limits your readers. If you want to reach everybody on the board, ditch the net speak and write in a way which your English teacher would like you to.

All this being said, I still read just about anything which sounds interesting - though I find it difficult sometimes.

Sorry for the rant, I just get a little passionate about good English.

lol whut?

[BabyDavey]

lol whut?

Give this a try. It will translate from plain English to 1337. (Leet Speak)

Also, try this to translate from net speak and 1337 to English.

Enjoy! Now we can all live in harmony.

[tris]

I'm most commonly known to be a spelling and grammar nazi. As such, I constantly correct those around me, including online.

My position is this: If you cannot spell or write properly, or even in such a manner that can be considered coherent, your thoughts are not worth my time or consideration. Furthermore, I would believe that you are undoubtedly inferior to me in many ways, first and foremost, intelligence.

I would expect that all people, from all walks of life would like to be respected for who they are, and have their thoughts and feelings understood by their fellow man -- otherwise, what is the point of communication at all? However, I have no more tolerance for one's lack of articulation than I do for Ebonics, which is an abhorrent, festering pustule on the face of popular American culture, and a significant speedbump in the progress of Black America.

Anyone who has no respect for proper communication is not worthy of any respect, period.

[Bettypooh]

I wouldn't want to be associated with a$$holes whose main pleasure in life is telling someone else how to live My grammar is good, not great, and if I were addressing a convention of English teachers it would matter- but on message boards it doesn't As long as you're trying to do well that's good enough for me Yu wana cum up w/ crap lik dis then GTH

If what you have to say doesn't deserve a reasonable effort on your part, then all I can surmise is that it isn't worth my reading it either

Bettypooh

[Yvhuce]

Well... I'm sure some of those spelling/grammar nazis are probly taking aim at me... Tough shit, nazi scumbags! But, seriously...

While I agree that one should at least try to be coherent in communicating (I agree with the anti-netspeak and anti-ebonics stances and proper usage of similar words [like the commonly confused "y'all"<"you all"> and "ya'll" <archaic "y'all", modern "you will">]), I've long since given up on formal english. It's like trying to wear clothes that're a few sizes too small. I tend to type out what I want to say as if I was speaking it. So, yes, my own accent does come into play. For example, the shortening of "probably" to "probly". I don't know anyone who actually says "probably". The word is evolving to cut out an unnecessary syllable (at least it is in my area). The same tends to go for more obscure grammatical stuff like "an historic" (doesn't make sense) often changed to "a historic" (makes sense) by people other than english teachers. My spelling and tendency to typo are getting better, thanks to Firefox's spellchecker function, though. So, no, I'm not really trying to make it harder to read, just using more informal speech to avoid sounding like a robot.

[curiositykilledthecat]

Since when did they change the meeting of for to from?

I usually just ignore the stuipidity on the internet.

[Yvhuce]

Since when did they change the meeting of for to from?

I usually just ignore the stuipidity on the internet.

It was in a rare edition of Webster's. They've since fired that intern, I believe.

[dogpiss]

Don't know why people gotta bust bawls like that... life's too short and they're's so much more to care about then being a grammar and punctuation Nazi! Save the obsessive correction for the formal works. So long as a post doesn't make you go 'wuh?' it should all be 'good in da hood.'

/Yes, they all are intentional. Screw the grammar Nazi!

--dp

[BabyChris121675]

As fro me, I always use grammar as best as I can as I am a writer and I don't really care for that so-called text-crap. I prefer to be able to read and understand what I am reading and not try to translate it.

BabyChris121675

[diamondback6881]

I guess you could consider me a grammar nazi. Though, I don't advertise that fact here. It drives me crazy when people use that text crap online.

[diaperpt]

There has to be some sort of middle ground here. There are some whose spelling and grammar are so atrocious as to make their posts incoherent to a lot of us. I can understand that some are not as educated as others and I can sympathize with some who have limitations. At the same time, to take pride in not using the intelligence you have is, in my view, sad.

I try to curb myself from criticism for the most part and usually just stop reading. I have commented in some cases, but it seems that to criticize placement of a quote in a reply seems over the top whether or not you've been deputized into the internet grammar and usage police.

[Topguy]

At least they aren't posting in "baby talk".

Which pretty much comes across as "my brains are scrambled."

[sarah_ab]

I'm most commonly known to be a spelling and grammar nazi. As such, I constantly correct those around me, including online.

My position is this: If you cannot spell or write properly, or even in such a manner that can be considered coherent, your thoughts are not worth my time or consideration. Furthermore, I would believe that you are undoubtedly inferior to me in many ways, first and foremost, intelligence.

I would expect that all people, from all walks of life would like to be respected for who they are, and have their thoughts and feelings understood by their fellow man -- otherwise, what is the point of communication at all? However, I have no more tolerance for one's lack of articulation than I do for Ebonics, which is an abhorrent, festering pustule on the face of popular American culture, and a significant speedbump in the progress of Black America.

Anyone who has no respect for proper communication is not worthy of any respect, period.

so ne1 w/a learning disability or other neurological disorder that makes it impossible for them to spell, use grammar, or articulate to your high standards is therefore intellectually inferior?

and yes many sites have spell check and grammar check, but heck i've been posting here for quite a while and i still dont know where the grammar or spell check button is.

Also, those sight impaired members who use speach recognition software, must therefore be intellectually inferior because their speach recognition software can make mistakes in grammar and spelling, especially if they cannot afford top of the line model?

[Bettypooh]

.... i've been posting here for quite a while and i still dont know where the grammar or spell check button is.

It's at the top of the reply page- the button marked "ABC" with the check mark beside it Unless you buy a customizable spell check program it's likely to leave errors too- a proofread is always necessary.

I always look to see that my reply posted properly and re-read it. There's an "edit" button there in case you want to change it Even then I still miss stuff-especially my spelling I used to be pretty good with my keyboard but a traumatic incident in my life saw that disappear- Now I'm somewhat dyslexic and often hit the wrong keys when typing I used to love to write but now it's a huge chore and nowhere as much fun as it used to be so I don't write much anymore I do understand those who can't do well, but I will never excuse those who don't even try

As to netspeak, 1337, or whatever only an idiot would attempt to communicate with people in a language they probably don't speak Save it for text messaging the people like you who speak it, and learn to use decent grammer in plain English when you interact with the real world out here

(PS: This post took me about twenty respellings, two previews, and two edits to get it right-but it's worth the work to make reading it fun and easy for you )

Bettypooh

[DiaperBoyKR]

<English Teacher Hat ON!>

The modern move toward netspeak and other corrupted dialects of english is really starting to piss me off. You can seriously see its effects, not just in how kids nowaday talk online, on boards, in games, etc., but in how they speak day to day and how they write their papers and school assignments. I'm not one who gets overly pissed when someone uses netspeak when I'm talking in IM (occasionally), in a game, or in a text, because space is at a premium, and sometimes you need to condense in order to get your thought through. My mind pretty much automatically translates it. However, in a situation like a blog, a board, an email, a paper, etc., you have basically unlimited space to work and can proper express your thought without having to resort to such codes. Even there, I can tolerate a few spelling errors, or minor grammatical errors, but seriously, take the time and write properly. The first time I heard a person say "LOL" in person, I wanted to smack the heck out of them.

Theres a reason that the world thinks all Americans are idiots. Can you imagine what will happen when the majority of our current batch of high schoolers hit the working world? We don't really have anyone to blame but ourselves anymore though. For the last 20 years, our schools have been way more focused on edifying our kids and feeding their self-esteem instead of educating them. My mom (who works in a High School) tells stories all the time about kids who were given F's or D's in a class, the kid's parents call the school to demand the grade be changed upward, and it actually happens. Kids in school today have no sense of personal responsibility, no concept of how to study, no idea how to learn on their own, and realistically, no education. Why do you think otherwise bright kids are dropping out of college in record numbers? Unless something seriously changes, the educational system, and eventually the working world that relies on it will go from the shining beacon of the world to the old worn out hooker standing on the corner.

<Teacher Hat off>

To get back to Angela's original post, I think the concept of putting penny-ante restrictions on where parts of a reply are supposed to go is a little ridiculous. It all gets said anyway. The quote is still there, so people know what you're replying to. As long as the post is clear, logical, and makes sense, leave it alone. A few minor grammar errors won't kill things. Unfortunately, people by nature tend to be control freaks, and so they like to have control over the littlest stupid things. Some people get down right uneasy if they don't have that control. Meh.

Sorry for the rant. The thread touched off my indignant worried teacher vein.

[diaperpt]

Bettypooh,

Thanks to you and others who make a huge effort to communicate clearly.

Sarah_ab,

Personally it isn't so much a slam against people who flat can't communicate well as it is to suggest that you use the means you have to do so.

I read quite a few posts where people are obviously fairly intelligent but haven't bothered even looking at what they've typed. I've read posts from people from non-English speaking countries who make a good effort - though with mixed results. I've also read posts from people who obviously have a great deal of trouble communicating in writing with much of any meaning.

Putting judgment aside, if I have trouble reading a post, I usually just move on and ignore it. It doesn't matter into which 'category' I might put the writing.

To me, the point is not perfection, but rather truly being able to communicate. Given the wide range of the people on this site, there is a great range of intelligence, education, and skill. There is also a great range in age and background. If I have a problem, it isn't because of who you are or why you are like the person you are, but simply whether your writing is close enough to what I feel like reading. To that extent, we can only ask that none of us condemn the reader any more than the writer...

diaperpt

[Yvhuce]

I guess you could consider me a grammar nazi. Though, I don't advertise that fact here. It drives me crazy when people use that text crap online.

Being anti-texting/netspeak isn't being a grammar nazi. Grammar nazis are the people who get onto others for using slang, regionalisms, contractions, and generally not typing "perfect english". They're also the ones who harass people for putting quotes in the wrong place.

As to quote placement, I usually find it easier to understand a post when the text follows a quote, rather than having to scroll down to figure out what the person's responding to. I occasionally quote the previous post, myself, when I'm not sure if my post will end up on the next page or not. I also tend to cut posts up an respond to sections of them, so's to not bother with posting a bunch of unrelated info. But I'm not here to tell anyone else that's how they should do it... Quote as y'all see fit.

[PampersPete]

Your Best Friend On The Net

[Yvhuce]

Another handy tool. Better than most built-in thesaurus and free (better than paying for thesaurus add-ons for word processors, etc.).

[underwhere]

So, I always wanted to know: was the thesaurus a carnivore like triceratops, an herbivore like brontosaurus, or an omnivore like me?