Kif

Thought I'd give an update, will probably be awhile before the next one. (And apologies to those coming from Kali's blog during this hiatus - I'll be back, I promise!) My bedwetting has definitely picked up since mid-December. I've been consistently wet 3 or more times per week AND have had many occurrences where those are all consecutive. The end result is that it practically feels like (and many times is) waking up wet every other day or more. Daytime-wise, I've definitely been more regular and I really don't notice when I wet anymore. Sometimes I have to focus on being relaxed, but it's pretty rare. And more often than not, I dribble anytime my nappy comes off for changes. All that said, I have a solid-enough idea of when I'll undergo GCS now, so two things will change: I'm going to stop using diapers for #2, and try to hold it a bit/take my time to get to the potty. I'll also "pinch off" when I'm aware, for both. I won't stop using nappies completely, as they help soooo much with my anxiety (and dysphoria), and I'm nowhere near any lasting physical changes beyond pads at most and nappies at night just in case. I don't want people guessing surgery date / location, so this'll be my last intentional update until sometime after I've healed enough to begin untraining again. But, will ofc continue wearing at night because I probably need to at this point and the docs are fine with it. In all likelyhood, could be more than 6 months depending on how healing/scheduling all works out...almost as long as I've been untraining, haha! Anyway, once I return from my hibernation, I'll give an update on how it all went and where I'm at. I do expect to start from close to ground zero when I resume again, but that's okay with me...I'll get there eventually. After nearly six months of untraining, this is something I know I want and will definitely pursue it again when I can. In closing, just want to say thanks to you all for your help and your support! ? It makes such a huge difference to be in such an accepting and supportive community, and I'm overall far happier for it. Take care! ?

Holy wow, it's like looking in a mirror! Mine tried to basically force it out of me with 'therapy', family fun times eh. ? I have internet hugs if you want to accept them, living through all that is ... difficult. ❤️?

Oh yeah Most common for me is before bed on a long day...just wanna collapse into bed, but no instead I have to put on a new nappy...Buuuuut also brush my teeth etc so really it's less of an inconvenience and more of an enforcer of self-care lol ?

Eeeeyup! Maybe not meditating etc in my case, but obsessing? Abso-f**ing-lutely. I mean...the body doesn't stop. There's undeniably a constant awareness of what you're doing to change voiding habits. And because you have other facets of your life you naturally want to tend to (grocery shopping, visiting friends, traveling/vacation...) then very quickly you are confronted with whatever fears you have about wearing and using diapers in all aspects of your life. And touching on that kind of stuff very quickly moves into dealing with all the fears you have about being yourself in all general aspects, and that naturally includes questioning your priorities because incon care forces you to literally put money on the table and consider the social impacts on yourself. It's no surprise these kind of changes require such a big level of commitment, beyond simply "just stay relaxed". It's why, as others have already put, you have to get something very special and valuable out of this in order to overcome and grow through all those challenges.

That's great to hear! Kudos to keeping at it, despite how you've felt about progress, so I'm happy to hear you're finally seeing what you want.

This is a fun way to put it!

Or at least a small small amount lol But, it also does *technically* help with side-sleeping at night. I can get by with a Seni Quattro and booster, but I like that I don't *have* to stock those for nighttime except as backup.

Wanted to post here -- I think I found a great way to manage messes in nighttime cloth diapers! Plus I think I've realized I'm wetting more at night than I thought. The problem I experience is that I need lots of diapering to support the amount of wetting I have at night -- which means that when I mess in the morning now I have X layers of cloth to wash off. Since I need quite a lot, this is very heavy and also messy so...ick. I considered making an adult-size splash guard and installing a diaper sprayer, to physically support that amount of bulk and keep the mess contained. But that would be lots of work to make, and the splash guard would need to be quite large due to the size of adult nappies. I simply don't have the time nor space for it. What I settled on was adjusting the diapering itself to make washing it off easier. What I do is I apply/pin a single-layer cloth diaper first to myself. This layer is tight around the legs and is permeable to pee since it's just a cloth diaper, and I've installed elastic and snaps to help it both fit better and to make the diapering easier to do (fewer pins to manage). After snapping that on, then I'll lay down and pin on as much cloth diapering I need over that to get through the night, following the techniques described on the Incontinence Support cloth diapering guide (1.5-2.0 lbs cloth for me). And then, I'll just apply plastic pants like normal. Then in the morning, the inner diaper catches the mess really well! I simply remove the outer diapering layers and toss them into the laundry, and then I can carefully remove/rinse the inner diaper layer and toss it in the laundry. Since the messy layer is just one thin layer and the outer layers are largely untouched (or at least have no debris on them), it makes the cleanup SO MUCH easier and more manageable since I don't have to rinse 1.5-2.0 lbs of wet and messy cloth diapering...just the very thin (maybe 0.25 lbs) inner layer. So yay! All THAT aside I've come to realize since being in cloth the past several nights that I may be wetting in my sleep more than I think. I've woken up definitively wet (leaking a little, actually...) for three days straight now. Before that, I was waking up in disposables thinking mayyyybe I was wet but I couldn't really tell and wasn't awake enough to really check...But there was at the very least doubt I was dry. What I was using was using to judge if I was wet was if I felt wet and my bladder was largely empty. But the past few days I've been waking up far wetter than when I went to bed (part near the waistband is soaked all around, not just mildly damp), despite my bladder being partially or quite full. So, I wonder then if all these past nights where I've been "maybe wet" I've actually been "definitely wet". And I may need to up my diapering a bit too, to compensate....1.5 lbs may not be enough for me, but how I'm going to comfortably manage 2.0 lbs I don't know; it's physically uncomfortable at that level with terry, so I may need to find birdseye diapers to cut down on the bulk.

Thanks for sharing an update! Sounds like overall your traveling experiences worked out, even if they could have worked better, so good to hear! I'll need to keep this in mind for myself! I tend to under-pack a bit, so will follow your advice. Can't really comment on why, but I can at least confirm this happened to me too. My best guess is it's about the body learning/adjusting and being smack-inbetween things, so it gets confused? Eventually it just self-resolved, and for me the biggest helper was switching to a standing desk (so I'm in the most-relaxed position most of the day) and keeping hydrated. For me now, if I am sitting or kinked otherwise I'll go from 0 to 100 urgency very suddenly and then release reflexively. Otherwise it's dribbles and I feel surprised by how wet I am at changing time. Can confirm this, but also not confirm it? Since focusing on untraining, my BM habits have gone more frequent on some days but also have gone less frequent on others (might be a day or two I don't go at all) -- both of which are at least different from what it was before. All this despite eating generally a hefty portion of greens (half of the plate) lots of days and drinking more water (partially due to dribbling more). Then again, my subconscious is probably holding back a bit because I know SRS is coming up at some point and I don't want to lose too much BM control quiet yet.

I've often wondered about the airing out thing myself...Like, how do folks realistically do it? I can end up peeing (or at least getting the urge to) like every 5 minutes, so I don't air out because it's not practical to. I mean...unless I were to lay down partially undiapered so I could cover it I guess? But that'd be so anxiety inducing. I'm in the fifth month now and haven't had problems with rashes that weren't easily solved other ways (diapering a little looser, using powder on my hips when necessary, etc) FTR, I can still hold it but I don't want to but that's not the point...I'm not supposed to be able to choose, like you pointed out. It changes perspective on things. Like, changing location is another! The 12 month thingy says to never change in the bathroom but...why? Like, accidents are going to happen during changes, and while I'm okay letting it happen it is still a pain to clean up compared to e.g. doing it on a tiled floor. Plus, the shower is there if I need it, and all my supplies. So, I change in the bathroom...I just don't use the toilet.

I feel I can relate a lot to this, and have for-the-most-part kept to it (even peeing on the floor like you described)...But keeping the promise is hard. For me, at least, the best enabler has been feeling safe and secure and reducing stress in other parts of my life. I had a moment while commuting where I realized how directly that impacted me...I'd been really stressed about making it home (got on the wrong train) and as soon as my feet hit the correct platform I felt my bladder give in...and keep going, and going, and going. It was then I realized how much my stress / mood impacted my holding behaviors, that in a way my subconscious wetting being a sign of doing a good job keeping stress down and that if I had larger voids it was a sign I needed to work at it. But yeah...stuff's hard haha. It is really kinda funny how much this extends to literally all other facets of my life, how it forces me to sit down and really work through the hard stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with diapers! Heck, I've been working with a hypnotist but at this point it's all general (but hard) life stuff like addressing shyness, boundaries, etc. ?

Generally, I don't plan to continue untraining at the same pace as before until done with healing. I know from where I'm at now that I do want to continue untraining as much as I can, so I really don't look forward to pausing it in any shape or form...But I may need to, if not at least for logistical/practical reasons. Between dialations and general leaking of .. fluids .. post-op, I'll be constantly changing dressings/pads, cleaning, and airing out especially during the first several weeks. Another trans gal that went through SRS recommended staying in a bathrobe during the first several weeks because it'll save time dressing/undressing constantly to e.g. have a few hours to read a book or something...if that gives you an idea of how often. The general consensus on folks talking about diapers after surgery on reddit (the one place I can find info on real experiences, if you can believe it) seems to be to just keep clean and dry, and to use pads instead of diapers especially for cost reasons...which makes sense when you consider how often one would be changing, cleaning, drying, etc. Proper diapers would be both annoying and expensive compared to pads, so I'll probably switch to pads and the potty during the day just purely for convenience when tired from recovery. Only time I could picture staying in diapers is at night. The surgeon/team are aware of my (still occasional) bedwetting and haven't mentioned any problems w.r.t hygene. That said, I'll definitely stick with disposables (rather than cloth) since it keeps my skin drier. Also, no messing ofc. But yeah as far as untraining goes...I doubt I'll have enough of a change in <6 months for there to be a problem stopping before surgery. I plan to keep wearing 24/7 for my emotional/mental sake, but will probably switch to pullups (or pads) to making toileting easier. I still hate it though, and wish I could just not care about it. Neat! This is pretty much what I've ended up with, aside from the pants part.

That's fantastic!! Hope you have more of those, it feels great to sleep all the way through the night without waking and then wake up warm and comfy ? Sorry to hear about your neurological disorder! But happy to hear you're finding some peace/happiness with nappies at least! ?

So things have been pretty routine in Month #4, pretty much as the 12-month program describes it really. Diapers feel pretty normal now, and I've been gradually shifting away focus from DD etc. to focus on more generic self-improvement stuffs like more focus on my diet, exercise, and decreasing my stress at work. One of the things I did was setup my office with a standing desk and to my surprise it has helped with my untraining in a few ways! One way is that it decreases my stress; standing a lot forces me to take more-frequent (but short) breaks because my feet tire out. The other way is that standing simply is the easiest way to keep my pelvic floor relaxed so I end up dribbling (and drinking) more. Let's see...Some other notable stuff with cloth diapers and with messing, too? I experimented a bit with cloth diapers, to see if I could arrive at a combo that works well for me at night. I started with 2 lbs of diapering, and it worked but was so bulky that it was uncomfortable. And frankly, hilarious! I literally pissed myself laughing about it, for a good half-hour ?! Anyway, eventually I settled on 1.5 lbs. A half-pound makes more difference than you'd expect on comfort, and it held up just fine for volume. Unfortunately my plastic pants really aren't that great so I'm going to wait until I get my babykins/garywear orders to continue with that experiment. In the meantime, I'll stick with my combo of Seni Quattro + booster + cloth cover + plastic pants at night. I did switch to Tena Ultima nappies for daytime this month (they work WAY better) but at night they're worse haha. On the messy side, I think the big change (heh) was just...becoming more comfortable with it? Like, a month ago I was super hesitant to go at all and when I did I ran off to the bathroom right away to go change. Now, I'm like super lazy about it...In the mornings especially, I'll just hang out in them for up to a half-hour while I finish chores, eat breakfast, etc. My nighttime diapering combo (cloth cover + plastic pants over a disposable) just works really well at smell containment...I have had zero comments or complaints from my hubby. Plus I'm pretty good with general hygiene anyway so I've had no problems with rashes. Also -- not sure it makes a big difference on smell -- I have them now in smaller amounts more frequently throughout the day (generally after each meal); with one near-blowout exception, they've become pretty predictable when I make good diet choices and stay hydrated. Bedwetting has been hit-and-miss. First week of November was dry, but the two after that were wet 2-3 times per week. I've not really changed anything about my nighttime habits...I'm more hydrated from standing -> dribbling -> drinking more often, but I don't force a big glass of water before bed anymore. Just enough to quench my thirst normally. I might be more wet than I give myself credit for though, because I'm only counting nights where I have absolutely zero doubt I wet while asleep...But I've increasingly been waking to myself mid-wet or waking and then falling asleep while wetting, kinda like in the very beginning of this whole journey. So...thanks for reading! Will see you again in December or whenever, if something interesting happens.

Thank you for stating this -- I relate a lot, but hadn't really had it put that way before. Also am a 'rule follower' kind of person, myself. Of all things though, diapers and gender are the two I was consistently willing to break rules for. Probably would be a good question for 'rule followers' to ask themselves in-general..."What are you willing to break rules for?"

Feel like I can relate! Comparing notes, by the end of month 2 I was also wetter at changes than I expected and I spent quite a bit of time/focus on going anytime anywhere like you described. Nearly always wet was definitely a norm. Maybe it's filtering in the head, or dribbling, or a combo of both? Messing frequency seems on part with me too...though, it definitely went down because I was more afraid due to bathroom work / less privacy. Now that that's all done, it's at 2-3 times/day like you've described. One thing I've not yet seen mentioned is that I also spent tonnnnnes of time and energy grappling with the emotional sides of untraining. I personally went through...a lot, and not related to untraining...so I'm not sure how much of that is truly related to untraining. I'm curious if you have gone through similar challenges there too? Months 2-3 were definitely my "should I really do this?" months as the honeymoon phase ended and routine set in...But I felt pretty resolved about those feelings by the end of month 3.

This. is. 100%. me. And I don't have an ADHD diagnosis...at least, I haven't sought a doctor yet... Anyway, it's partially why I've swapped to higher capacity diapers...If you can't beat it might as well embrace it...

I've noticed during changes the past several days that my dribble has gone from "oh haha, okay whoops" minor drips to full-on "HEY,,," level accidental dribbles. Like, okay I'm used to knowing the cold wipe will make me clench my tummy by accident and that results in a little spurt that I can anticipate ya' know? But now it's like...I move around a bit and OH SHI-- now my floor and clothes are wet. And I'm feeling legit confused and surprised where it came from. I would bother with a clamp or something on my dingus while changing, but it'll get lopped off in a few months so I'm kinda just...squatting over my nappy? I'd hope this gets easier after SRS but...I suspect it won't. Gah, how to do standing changes. Maybe I should pack a rag or wipe with me and hold it between my legs until I can put a new diaper on.

Hmmm...If that were to happen I'd probably panic a little bit at first and consider stepping off and getting a cab or calling my hubby to bring spare clothes if I didn't have any. But, I usually carry a spare pair of leggings and plastic pants in my purse (not sure if that's relevant in this scenario). If I had spares, then I'd probably decide to get off at the next available stop and find a restroom, and I'd inform the driver of the bus I'd had an accident because the seats are always cloth here. I'd probably find a cafe to change in, and ideally I'd find a pharmacy (they're everywhere) and pickup...something. Probably pullups, but those would be better than nothing or leaky nappies. If I had absolutely nothing...well, shoot. I mean, shame on me for using regular nappies as doublers in the first place (I abandoned that practice yeaaars ago), and double-shame on me for not packing spare clothes. Honestly, I might consider just ... sitting there. I might consider calling my hubby if he's available but I'd doubt it...and certainly not faster than an hour. Would still inform the driver on the way out if possible (probably get up early and walk up to the front). Oh, just occurred to me I have plastic bags usually in my purse too. I'd probably lay out at least one on the seat and tell the driver it's the seat with a plastic bag on it. Shoot, could probably use that plastic bag soon as I noticed leaking hah Yucky yucky yucky!

Wow, yeah both of your responses really resonate with me at least! ❤️ I reached a point very shortly after I started untraining, when I was reading my old journal entries and reflecting on them while reading Kali's blog, where I had that psychological realization -- that whether I reach incontinence or not, I need to be in diapers. And, I promised myself that if I ever decided I wanted to stop untraining that I wouldn't hurt myself again and stop using them 24/7. I felt quite a bit of peace with that, but yeah I definitely have also felt that end-goal anxiety of wondering when/if I'll reach "incontinence" and pressure for that to be a very specific and narrow definition of it. But as you pointed out, there are many degrees and kinds, and they're all gradually reached along the way...I wrote about my feelings of 'doubt' in my untraining thread recently and the gist is I realized those weren't real doubts over if I wanted my body to function a certain way--what it was instead were dominating/overshadowing feelings of social anxiety, feeling like I "had to" be incontinent in the eyes of others to avoid judgement...But, once I realized that fear and eliminated it, I truly realized I did want my body to work a certain way and it so-happened that coincided with moderate degrees of UI and FI. I still feel a little impatient about when I'll reach what I want, but thinking of it in terms of "diaper dependence" like you described helps quite a lot with that! Because then, it's not about e.g. "I cannot hold it at all" so much as "I can't hold it long enough while getting groceries for being out of diapers/protection to be practical" or even "I don't know how wet I'll be in X time, so I should add a booster, use a better brand, etc"...All of which are still plenty.

I've updated the title to simplify it, and I don't want to put pressure on myself; I think at this point while I've shown capacity to "spiral", given how things have been panning out with all these other life events I don't see spiraling a thing that'll happen anyway. Just gonna' take it as it is.

I've been using the Seni Quattros, they're a fantastic budget diaper over here in Europe (less than 1 Euro each)! Very comfortable, high absorbency, roomy butt, highly recommended especially if paired with plastic pants (otherwise, you'll notice some weeping). If you ever need more absorbency, the Seni branded boosters work fantastically well with them ofc, you could even position it up-front if you need more absorbency there. I find it funny how personal choice of diapers is. I'm actually switching away from them in favor of Tena Ultimas for opposite reasons; I need more absorbency in the middle, so for me they end up lasting an hour or more longer than the Quattros (which have it distributed more evenly throughout, especially the front as you've pointed out). Plus, their supplier is easier to work with. So, eh ?

That's super cool! It's really interesting to see how that works, and interesting how you observed that wetspots could form and then dry especially if they were small. But in the end, it clearly was a "losing" battle, haha, despite your genuine efforts to not let it happen. I'm suuuuper tempted to try this for myself in a year or two, might be validating in a fun way...

Past week has been interesting, so updates! One BIG positive thing is that I've for-sure decided I want to become incontinent and fully untrain. "Pardon?!" You might ask, "Wasn't that already decided?" Well, I didn't talk about it much, but I've been haunted by some doubts on-and-off the past several weeks. I hadn't quite pinned it down in a way I could articulate (either to myself, or others) until recently, so I didn't write about it. The short of it was that I realized whenever these doubts came up it was always about social fears, e.g. people judging me for wearing diapers in the first place. Judging me for having a bulge. Judging me for briefly having a smell while I run off to the restroom. Judging me if I accidentally leak despite reasonable efforts. Judging the size of my purse. Etc. While I do know the chance of being confronted about it is very very very verrrry low, it's not zero...and psychologically, it's not enough for me to stick my head in the sand and simply pretend folks will never confront me about it because the fantasy/intrusive-thoughts would still run wild in my head. I explained it a bit in BaronBrook's thread on hypnosis (as I started that, this week), but I realized that any judgements people could make were either null (from trolls) or ones I agreed with and took realistic actions to minimize (e.g., wearing enough protection is better than thin inadequate protection when it comes to protecting furniture of friends, colleagues, etc). So, articulated! (and progressively less of a problem!) Once I came to that realization, I thought "okay, in an ideal world, how would my body work? How would this all work?" and I came up with something like this: my bladder goes on its own. I don't notice it happening, and if I find myself kinked long enough to notice then no matter how much I struggle I cannot stop myself from peeing my bowels give me very little notice, and sometimes surprise me entirely. I can't hold for more than a few minutes, after which I find they'll quickly empty Reading over this, I realized "hey! this sounds like double incontinence?" and that's when it clicked with me! I'd felt this feeling of uncertainty with my untraining, caught between my social fears and what I wanted my body to work like...I had interpreted this as uncertainty about wanting incontinence when really it was just my social fears clouding my feelings. With those fears removed, I didn't feel that doubt anymore! Yay! So, that was a BIG load off my shoulders this past week. ? After that I was much more comfortable really focusing on my untraining...Which, I found a few things by the way: I'm holding because I think I absolutely cannot under any circumstances strain or push...but that happens naturally, especially in some movements! It's okay to strain sometimes! The important thing is to step out of the way and not exercise control, even if that means what my body wants to naturally do is strain sometimes...so, off with that silly behavior. I need to actually practice laying down and peeing in my bed, in my sleeping position. I've struggled a bit with this because when I relax nothing happens unless I "push". Kali talked about this a bit, and the TL;DR is that when lying down your detrusor has to engage to push pee up against gravity due to how the plumbing is routed, and that this is true for both male and female anatomy...so in other words, this is normal too! With that in mind, once I got into a rhythm practicing (I'd watch something on my laptop and do this for an hour or so), peeing while lying down came naturally and with very little effort. Simply chugging a few glasses of water before bed will wake me up, but won't necessarily result in wetting in my sleep...so I'd not been super consistent about it. But what does seem to work is pushing fluids an hour or two before bed so that I go to bed dribbling constantly. Both times I woke up wet this week were when I did this before bed (with days between when I didn't), so I'm certain there's some pattern there! Anyway, I've practice all these things and have felt a lot more success dribbling more during the day and waking up wet in the morning. Ngl, I do legit find myself saying "whoops!" out loud to myself sometimes...trying not to make that a habit haha! Related, I'm feeling alright about the Tenas -- enough so that I might continue using them for now. They're not perfect for bowel stuff, but they're not inadequate and I don't have any intention to heavily focus on bowel untraining for several more months anyway. Plus, they are hecking better for keeping me dry and leak-free for longer. Finally, there's a supplier I can use that does home delivery and subscriptions which lowers the cost and increases the convenience factor. So, I'll switch over to those for now once I've consumed my remaining supply of Senis...and if I need it longer-term, I'll bite the bullet and use the BetterDrys. Overall, feeling good about my progress as I approach the middle of my third month! Farthest I've been untraining, too. So, it's ALL uncharted territory for me! ??