BrownBobby

It sounds like you have a *really* compelling case for it now too. It is genuinely just easier to have no control and change a diaper on your own schedule than either constantly use a foley or have to use a cath every time you need to urinate.

FTR, you *almost* came across as sympathetic with this post. Almost. Except I *guarantee* your post did not have the effect you think it did. In fact, from what I can tell, it had rather the opposite, driving the discussion further down the path you didn't want to, to the point of a mod having to be involved. If that was your intent, I'd recommend a small ounce of self-reflection on whether or not your choice in words and tactics might be more effective. (Also notice how my own wording here is rather less muted - and for a reason. Respectful discussion, even that I might disagree with, is matched with respect. It's only disrespect or attacks that are usually met with less...respectful defenses.) Do you know what post *did* cause the tone to shift? @Jacobs opening up about *why* he felt the way he did, providing what he was comfortable with, and showing that there was WAY more to this than the usual moral policing that such a post comes to. Even in your post, you can't help but go back to it at the end - apparently we're down to just 'a lot' of people being crazy for this instead of 'everyone,' which I guess is, strictly speaking, improvement. I would point out how a significant amount of people would consider *anyone* crazy for wanting to pursue incontinence in *any* form, but I'd rather focus on the positives here. Do you know what causes positive conversation to happen? Being respectful about beliefs, honest about why you feel them, and assume the person on the other side of the argument has a reason to believe what they will. Notice how that recent aggressive post now sticks out like sore thumb - because now, it's coming in hot after the temperature has dropped. Starting a discussion with "you/we all are crazy and/or evil for wanting this, it's a form of self-harm, and anyone who encourages it in any capacity whatsoever is simply encouraging self-harm" is a sure-fire way to turn that temperature, way, way, WAY up. Suggesting that a permanent life choice needs to be made with the same care and attention as anyone would any other permanent life choice, including making sure that they'll still want it after the action is done? That turns it way down. I will also point out that, as it turns out, my first speculation was rather on the nose as to what was driving the conversation the way it was to begin with - and it's also why, I will state for the gods-knows-how-many-eth time, that *any* permanent action like this should be taken when you've tried everything else first. If it works, it's cheaper. It's a good way to get an idea of what the "after" will look like. It lets you decide where along the way you'd like to stop if there's a place you want to. And it makes sure there isn't another thing going on, mentally or sexually, that might be distorting what you think you want. Unless @Jacobs wants to continue this thread, I hope it does end here - it's clear they prefer their privacy around this, has drawn attention they perhaps didn't want to, and have gotten their greater point across. And I hope that lessons were learned for future discussions of points like this one - and that, gods forfend, maybe some day we won't have to have a special rule on this forum to keep from having people feel like they have to speak "truth to power" in any way, when they're usually just making the flames taller by doing so - something I myself am not always innocent of.

In all seriousness, calling out others in mean-spiritedness is not, and should not, be what we aspire to here. This forum should be one of support. Now that @Jacobs has clarified their position, and made it clear what they regret about what they did, there isn’t a reason to continue to attack what was a very poorly-worded first post. I would again ask for your details to be made known more widely - because, contrary to what some VERY vocal people accuse me of, I would rather ALL information around these procedures get brought to light - but I will settle for knowing you are finding help and solace in these discussions. And another gentle reminder to anyone seeking permanent incontinence via means like this - make ABSOLUTELY sure you want it. Live as though you were. Try all other methods. Talk with professionals. Because a decision like this, like all others, should never be taken lightly.

Had THIS been your first post, this thread would have gone VERY differently. Removing the first and last sentences (which are still shockingly negative and assume a lot of negative intent with everyone - maybe consider that people, generally, would like to engage positively with you instead of belittling or insulting them?), you have an INCREDIBLY good post. Because this? This is a completely, totally, 100% real consideration when it comes to anything like this. And it's exactly why I tell people to have immense caution that it's not just their sexual drive telling them to do something. When working through my own decision, the question I contemplated was "If you can never orgasm again, but you were incontinent, would it be worth it to you?" For me, the answer was yes. But it's something you DEFINITELY need to have in mind. The funny part is that I went through a similar thing myself. As I finally found the way to put it - "What happens when you finally get something you've spent decades of your life trying to get?" It's the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory "What happens to the boy who got everything he wanted?" question. I was so used to having so much of my brain focused on something that now...I just had. I've now focused on instead using that energy to try to bring awareness of this to others who were in the same situation as me - and trying to ensure there's a way to support it so that these conversation don't *have* to happen on a random ABDL forum for surgeons who aren't willing to publicly advertise what they do. But we're a bit away from that. I'm sorry that it was a sexual fetish that drove you to pursue this, and that you now realize that it exists after the sexiness is no longer there. For what little it's a consolation, you'll be far from the first to have such an experience, though you're the first I've known who have had it from having their continence surgically undone. I hope you're able to work through the shame and guilt and that void you feel - that is something that only a therapist can help with, and I hope that if there are people who are only thinking with their sexual organs about this, they read your story and have a second thought about doing it.

“Engaging even contentiously because it might help” and “literally and explicitly calling everyone who even considers this evil” are two very different things. That isn’t me putting words in your mouth. If this…really banal statement…was your point…just saying, you really, really need to work on communication skills. “Try everything else first” is literally my motto to anyone considering this stuff, which INCLUDES talking to a therapist. “Just trust me bro” is…certainly a choice for open and honest dialogue. If you’re going to share your story with anyone who DMs, but NOT going to put it here…then what exactly is the difference? You don’t have to give any personal details. But if you can’t even give the barest scrap of actual information…then your word is as useful as me claiming I’m an ice skater who can triple axel - if true, really interesting and a good data point, but very hard to take seriously without context. I hope all goes well for you - but I’m just going to let this topic wither at this point. Whether troll or inept communicator, I don’t expect much to be gained from further inquiry. (Especially since I now think I know who you are - but that’s a separate matter.) Have a good day.

EDIT: Thank you, admins, for removing this post. As the post no longer exists, I see no reason to keep the text of it either. Let’s focus back on the discussion itself.

Your whole argument would have a lick of sense, and a leg to stand on, if most of those people didn't come in as the morality police to preach the Gospel to the sinners and non-believers who wallow in their wickedness. As you just did here, right now, with your post. I've helpfully highlighted it for you. And I believe that rather proves the point.

I'm glad you have a therapist - they are truly handy no matter what path you take through any of this. Though a word of caution to anyone - if any therapist tells you they can "cure" this, be incredibly cautious. Manage or help temper, yes. Absolutely. But this particular category of thing has a rather established pattern of being VERY difficult to make disappear forever, if not impossible. Regardless, get help if you'd like it - seriously. You'll never, ever hear me say otherwise. There's a reason I got buy-off from three therapists before getting my operation.

These are not mutually exclusive categories, unfortunately. Part of why you’ll see me speak so much about not taking medications without a doctor’s advice is a very hard-learned lesson there. Which is exactly why I *want* this to be an open and transparent dialogue. In the absence of peer reviewed research or case studies (though I’ve also helped start create those), were only left with messy anecdotal evidence. And the only way to make sense of it is to let everyone feel like they can bring it to light, when done so respectfully and in good faith.

It is...unfortunately common, though less so these days at least...to have people come in here and drive-by stuff like this. I always wonder what compels them to do it. Nothing made you come into this forum. Nothing made you have to engage in this way. What did they expect would happen? They'd drop their truth bomb and everyone would go "Oh, right! Yeah! Why didn't I see that before? I thought one way for years, but after your one forum post full of inflammatory language and vague examples, I've seen the light! I'm a changed person forever!" Imagine the world where this comment was "Hey, everyone. Here's a less rosy example of how this can go, and I want to make sure I warn everyone about the far less fun outcomes of how it can go." Can even transition into the "is there something wrong with wanting this to begin with" towards the end if you want, and it might even land. But posts like this...yeah. I stand by the "imagining they're speaking truth to power while yelling at the mirror" metaphor.

I am sorry to hear it - truly. This part of your post, I genuinely have condolences for. It is the unlikely but very possible outcome of such things, and it's terrible that it has happened to anyone, including you. Regret is an important consideration - and why I always have advocated for being really, absolutely sure whether or not you want to get it. And also why I advocate for trying everything else first. (And, even, talking to mental health professionals beforehand if you possibly can to truly see if it will be beneficial to you - though I also understand people being reluctant to do so.) I enjoy helping people become incontinent. Without fail, most people state they want to be "fully, totally, completely" incontinent, 24/7. That lasts until the first real 'hurdle.' "What happens when I go to work?" "What happens when I visit family?" "What happens when I leak without a change?" Reality asserts itself, and the desire usually gets better defined then. But a surprising number of people truly, genuinely want to be incontinent - those moments included. Very unfortunately, there is more that you posted that is...less sympathetic. I don't know how it's "sobering" to say we're on the "bizarre" side of the Internet. If you argument is from morality, then 50 years ago, the idea of even having a place to talk about such things would have been considered a pipe dream at best. The realty is, for lots of topics that are taboo, the kinky and sexual corners of the world are where it lives before it can successfully find a foothold in public consciousness. Hell, considering the idea of admitting non-heterosexual people even exist is a bridge too far for some people. Where else would you recommend people meet that share a desire like this? IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE from my post, read this. THIS SITE SAVED MY LIFE. No, that is not hyperbole or an exaggeration. There very well may be people who are here only to get off. More power to them. They can do what they want, as grown adults, doing grown adult things. But for me, this desire wasn't just a way to "make my peepee pokey." I've had it my entire life. I've tried just ignoring it. Finding substitutes. Treating every other possible mental health issue. Meeting it halfway with temporary measures. None of them stopped that voice. Not a single one. And when that voice was loud enough...well, let's just say I'm glad to still be here, able to type this. I've talked with dozens of professionals about this at this point. Urologists. Physical therapists. Mental health professionals. I *tried* to do what you said - see it as an unhealthy desire. It failed. Which is why I had multiple therapists write letters SUPPORTING me becoming incontinent. As in, in their professional opinion, that they were willing to tie their license and name to, they stated that me peeing my pants helplessly was something I should be work towards, after looking at everything else. You were the one who wanted to "address disastrous mental health consequences associated with seeking surgical outcomes." Well, here's mine. My heart still beats and my pants are always wet thanks in very large part to finding this site and realizing both I wasn't alone in wanting this, and that it was possible to achieve. The refuge of those who "speak truth to power" when they're shouting at the mirror - "If people disagree with me, it's because they're the ones who are deluded. They want to silence me because I'm right - it's the only reason!" Your post sounds less like an invitation to discuss the very real, very serious risks and consequences of seeking this, and more like...self-recrimination. You blame yourself for having done this. You feel guilt over the very real, horrible things that have happened to you. You wish that you never knew this path existed, because if it didn't, you can tell yourself you wouldn't have walked it. That you'd have not sought anything like it out.In all seriousness, you probably should seek a mental health professional, if you haven't already. This post isn't trying to warn people about surgery. It's trying to justify to yourself why a horrible thing happened. And "The internet message board made me do it" isn't going to be a satisfying answer.

The "not waiting" part has a second part - there is a lot you can do in recovery to help prevent it. (Nothing is guaranteed, and this is a very real risk that can happen). The less you stress your urethra when recovering, the more you rest and drink fluids like you're supposed to, and the more you make sure the cath doesn't move when recovering, the better your chances. But I hope this highlights part of this that I see get glossed over ALL THE TIME when talking about it. If your goal in getting this surgery is because it's hot as heck, then take a huge step back. Becoming incontinent has risks. Different methods have different risks, and different expected levels of effectiveness. Use stents? Almost inevitable one will eventually migrate to the bladder. Use catheters? UTIs are almost guaranteed to eventually happen. Surgery? Strictures can form. And so on and so forth. So for those looking for a life in diapers - great! I love mine. But be ready to accept the risks that come with any of the more involved steps to get there. Hence why I say "try everything else first."

This absolutely works, from what I have observed. I count it as the "try anything else" part of things. For me, it wasn't that great of a solution because of the collection bag. If there were any world where draining a long-term cath into diapers was sane and safe, I'd probably have done this instead. If you can do this route, it's wroth trying. Will also give you an idea of the inconvenience part of incontinence. For me, that inconvenience is the point, but that won't be everyone. Strictures are a very common complication from any urethral surgery. For ideal conditions, with doctors minimizing what they do, you can get it down to about 1 in 3. For the more serious modifications that are being done for full incontinence, you're probably closer to 1 in 2 (or worse). My stricture is VERY small - small enough that after urethrotomy (cutting it out), they want me stretching it with caths instead of pursuing more serious solutions. There's urethroplasties (removing the whole section that's scarred) and some promising balloon treatments, so it's far from a huge problem as long as you go to the urologist when you start noticing it. (Lesson learned there - don't wait for it to become a huge problem.)

1. Does your bladder fill up and then suddenly release a large amount, or is there a constant dribble? What causes retention or releases? My bladder filling is a rarity these days. I have a small stricture from the procedure, but it's very manageable by cathing about once a month with a 24fr catheter. If I let it act up further, I start retaining urine - but even then, it's not "control" in the normal sense. Lean back, or stand up, or cough, or just relax the pelvic floor, and whatever is being held back by the stricture comes out. (Not that it's much - it looks like my bladder holds 150mL these days, from a guy who used to go all day at high school holding it...) The other 95% of the time? Dribble, dribble, dribble. Maybe a spurt when I get out of bed in the morning and sit up. As I type this, I...well, let's move on to the next question. 2. What's your sensation? Does your bladder ever feel full? Do you feel urine leaking out, or is it just your skin feeling wet or diaper filling? Are you aware "I'm peeing now"? As I type this, I can feel drips and dribbles running down my scrotum and down through my perineum. Just a constant little dribble. If I'm standing, I can go all day and find myself in a soaked diaper I was completely unaware I was wetting. If I have a full bladder these days, it's an anomaly. (Case in point - when I do find my stomach hurting these days rarely, I have to remember what a full bladder used to feel like, and figure out if it's that.)

From my experience, if you can, make sure your doctor knows that incontinence is not only acceptable, but preferred. Doctors like to do that thing where they minimize side effects while trying to fix things. I've gone into every conversation with a urologist going "I would rather be fully incontinent than even have a chance of retaining urine again. Diapers are a perfectly acceptable way for me to manage this compared to having to cath constantly or have future procedures." I just don't specify that in my case "retaining urine" is really seen as "any urine."