L'Élection Présidentielle Française

[Diapered Jason]

Pay attention America, because this is a topic that often goes unnoticed in our media, but is very important. This year is becoming quite an election year with not only elections in the U.S., but elections in Russia, France, Greece, and other European countries with the final round of French presidential elections happening last Sunday. The important aspect of this for us here in the U.S. is the European economy. For some time now, the European governments have enacted austerity measures to get themselves out of the debt crisis. Unfortunately, I think one of the side effects of this is stunted or negative economic growth, which has resulted in recession for many of the countries. The importance the French presidential election is the newly elected French president, François Hollande, who is pushing for a balance between balancing the budget and economic stimulus as well as more taxes on the rich, while his incumbent, Nicolas Sarkozy and current president, pushed for austerity measures in Europe. It appears the French voters rejected this policy of austerity as are many countries in Europe, including Greece. Here is a nice video on it.

http://www.pbs.org/n...ion1_05-07.html

While Europe is very different from the U.S., the politics are very similar as we have the same questions to answer. Do we also go for austerity measures to fix our budget and lower our debt, or instead match it with more stimulus to assist in repairing the economy?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Europe if only to see the salubrity of the economic policies.

[Bettypooh]

And the Greek elections, where austerity candidates were not liked at all Nobody wants to cut back and suffer, but we've all gone further into debt than we should have, and that is why we are finally becoming broke. Debt is essentially selling a larger portion of your future income to possess something of a lower value today. If your future income increases fast enough, going into debt may make life better. If that doesn't happen then you lose ground and fare worse when the debt becomes due and you lose that what you thought you owned. Instead of addressing the debts in a timely manner, past governments have refinanced it again and again, knowing that implementing austerity to pay off the debt would adversely affect their electability. We have finally reached a point where refinancing is unfeasible or impossible These elections reflect that point having been reached, and it's attendant austerity is now unavoidable and much larger than it should have been.

At an earlier stage, stimulus might have effectively deferred or deterred this situation. Now there isn't enough left to grow from to reach the tipping point where prosperity returns. Our financial engines and our infrastructure which is needed to sustain them are totally knackered, many things not being worth rebuilding. Even if we reinvest and restructure everything, there is not enough potential income growth left to pay off the debt we owe in a reasonable time. Stimulus may help in the short-term but it cannot fix the inherent problems in our economic systems. It can only put off the inevitable crash awhile longer, just the same as refinancing debt does It is like adding fertilizer to a plant which is dying of old age- you may see a short burst of growth but the plant is going to die regardless and all you can do is replace it with another one.

The people of today do not like having to suffer anymore than past generations (or future ones either). They will vote for current happiness over anything else. They think that the past general prosperity can be continued but it can't, as they are going to find out when they get what they asked for with their votes The only solution is to get out of debt no matter what, and remain there forever thereafter. True wealth is built through saving, not spending because the more you spend, the less you have to spend later on. If there is somewhere that a stimulus will almost certainly pay off, then it might be worth trying in that area alone, but those places are few and the people whose incomes are not based in those areas will scream "unfair" just as they are doing now Far better to do what we must because the debt only increases as time passes and interest grows. Yes, it's going to hurt. Yes, it means being poor awhile, but it brings back the possibility of future prosperity which no other course of action will do. There is no other choice, so that is where all resources should be aimed It is time to learn that the current ideas about our economies are wrong, and that spending does not bring wealth.

These elections only prove that PT Barnum was right, and that there are more suckers out there than you want to admit who would rather be fooled than to believe they are gullible Now all we can do is see what those who were elected are going to say when they discover that their ideas not only do not work, but that they have nothing left to work with after they try them and austerity turns into mandatory insolvency

Bettypooh

[Diapered Jason]

Perhaps the questions we should be answering is specifically when and where stimulus would work and when and where austerity would work. Also, when it comes to austerity and/or taxes, who should suffer more.

In any case, the best thing we can do is the right thing, the second best thing we can do is the wrong thing, and the worst thing we can do is nothing. The great thing here is we might be able to gauge what the right thing is based on what happens in Europe.

[square_duck]

Greece is the poster child for socialist failure...it's that simple. Socialism is another word for parasite everyone wants to suck on the Government thinking it's all 'free' while the government is busy either taxing others or borrowing to pay for everything else. Margret Thatcher said "socialism works fine, until you run out of other peoples money" and that time has come, and no one wants to pay the bill....yet it will only get worse, and it has with the elections in France putting another socialist wacko in office :rollseyes:

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE GET IT???? WTF?

I have seen this on a micro scale as well with in my family. My grandparents (both sides) lived through the depression and WWII. both worked and saved and lived below their collective means, and when the '50's came around, they had money to invest and build with. My paternal grandparents bought apartment buildings, and my Maternal grandmother bought real estate in Laguna beach on the cliffs above the beach...all these properties today are worth a HELL of a lot, sadly, we had to sell the Laguna beach stuff for the following reason.....my dad.

He had positive roll models to save and invest and build, his parents scrimpet and scratched and saved and lived below their means, yet they still had plenty, a good house and good to eat and such.....yet my dad coveted what everyone else had, instead of keeping his nose in his business. Everything he had wasn't god enough, but what everyone else had seemed to be better.....which it wasn't.

He grew up, had his own profession and money, access to real estate and loans etc...all the tools for building sucess, yet he failed to save or build anything, electing to instead run up huge debts, and make monthly payments on them etc.....credit cards up the wazoo real estate loans blah blah blah...no savings to speak of, nothing to show for his time working....spend and waste.

When I took over as trustee of his estate when he was 1/2 dead in the hospital, I discovered he was over $850,000 in debt, little cash flow and no money saved or other tangible assets, other then real estate. he was 75....

I reworked everything, paid off a lot of debt and bills and such...and he had a fit! We had cash flow, and developed a savings account, sold unnecessary or problem property and made things work (our version of Austerity) and put him on a budget. he made himself trustee (relieving me) and proceeded to spend H*U*G*E amounts of the money we had saved up, and it or waste it. He couldn't spent it fast enough before he died at age 80. He had destroyed a lot, and left behind a mess, that we again had to clean up, which we did. Everything works fine again with out him.

He died in debt, leaving a mess for us to clean up.

His mother died wealthy with money enough in the bank to cover all expenses and taxes and leave plenty for her family. We kept her Real estate and still enjoy it. It continues to benefit her family even 25 years after she died.

My dads stuff we might have to sell. We paid all the bills, but, 5 years later, we are still paying on a mortgage....and now legal bills. My brother only wants money (he is financially inept) and can't even figure out a budget and financial planning....and he's a physician...go figure. How can he think to handle hundreds of thousands of Dollars when he can't take car of his own funds...??

This is what Socialists think, what everyone else has is better, and no one should have any more then anyone else.

Unfortunately this doesn't work, because with out the drive to succeed, there wouldn't be the Bill gates or Steve Jobs or any other inventor or Entrepreneur, because there isn't any reward or motivation.

Just look at North Korea for validation of this.....they have every possible resource at their disposal, yet they look with ENVY at the south and want what they have instead....I pity the people of the North, and the people of the South who are possibly on the brink of disaster should they allow for reunification of their country with out dismantling the North first.

The lesson here, on a macro scale, but which can and does apply to anything is:

SAVE AND INVEST AND YOU CAN HAVE WHAT YOU WANT.....SPEND AND WASTE AND YOU END UP WANTING WHAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

My dad always coveted what everyone else had, yet wouldn't do it for himself...Greece is the same...borrowing and wasting on social programs to "make people happy" and everyone retires early and with money, yet no one is putting anything back, it's a downward death spiral that finally hit bottom....and France is next.

You can't spend your way out of a recession...thats simply the truth. Anyone on Government programs should get out of it ASAP.

Working people learn to save, invest, and build your own wealth and be self sufficient, this is called being totally and truly F*R*E*E

NOT depending on someone else to take care of you (IE UNIONS!) and save your butt from yourself. Learn how to budget and manage money and build your own wealth and be as free as possible of the Growing Government programs that want you to be on their payroll

I am sure there are a L*O*T of people who would love to bury this message and have me hung and dried for even suggesting this kind of thing, but it is how the rich got that way. It didn't just happen over night, BIll Gates and Warren Buffett didn't just "get rich", it took YEARS of work and saving and managing.

Think of this, why is it that some of the most successful companies in the US (Microsoft, Berkshire Hathaway, Apple Etc) don't have A*N*Y debt? None...ZERO! They are sitting on huge Hordes of C*A*S*H!

This is because you really can't buy anything with debt......and the old saying that "CASH IS KING"

These guys learned early....and learned well.....Why can't others learn the same f**king thing???? W*H*Y??

Why are there people out there who still think that Socialism works????

Speaking locally, as in The US of A, the thing that makes this country different and that scares the sh*t out of everyone else is that Americans are (or were) an independent people. We are allowed by our constitution to have this thing called "self determination" and are granted 3 things:

*life*

*liberty*

and *the pursuit of happiness*

It says NOTHING about free money or free living or that the Government will or should pay for everything out of the tax funds that they collect! NOTHING! ZIP....N*A*D*A! nothing is given!!!!

There is an old saying that says, "If you want to be rich, do what rich people do" pretty simple...Save, work hard,invest and live below your means so that you can have what you want.....work for it and earn it....

You have to ask yourself, (since you are the only one who can answer it) what has more 'value'

Something that you wanted and worked towards and earned...

or

something you 'wanted' and were eventually 'given'???

Speaking personally, I Like...no L*O*V*E being able to pay for something that I EARNED...with my own money

That way it's truly M*I*N*E. My money represents my TIME that I invested to get the money to buy what I want. No one gives me anything, and I like it that way. I don't depend on anyone or anything else but ME.

I don't have to go to any damn government office to fill out a form to apply for anything, or wait for it to show up or any of the other Bull sh*t. I work...I get paid....I take those funds that I earned and do what "I" want, and I don't have to ask ANYONE for it. T*H*A*T*S being an AMERICAN!

Yes, I deliver pizza for a living, it's a JOB and one I happen to enjoy...BFD Sure I can qualify for the damn EBT program and probably most any other GOVERNMENT food assistance or what not...I CHOOSE not to. I CHOOSE not to be part of the problem.... instead I CHOOSE to be, and exorcise my American independence and pay for what I want with my own funds that I E*A*R*N*E*D! and I am DAMN PROUD OF THAT!

Others who want to flush that independence down the drain for the "easy Government hand outs" ought to be ashamed of themselves. I know there are exceptions (there always are) for those who are handicapped or disabled and what not, thats fine it can't be helped and you are who and what you are, everyone can do something though.

But I just don't get this whole 'class warfare' thing and the hatred of the rich etc. They worked for it just like everyone else....just because thy are more successful than you are doesn't make them wrong. People always write and say hateful things about Warren Buffet, but they conveniently forget he has been doing what he does for 50 + YEARS. He also is more then happy to tell you how he did it, he doesn't hide anything. It's simple research and application of funds into equities that will (should) appreciate in value over time. I did some of this back in 2009/ 2010 and I am way ahead in much of what I bought and yes I'm damn glad I did! It works, and if it works DON'T FIX IT!

What Greece did / does and will continue to do DOESN'T WORK and never will, yet France wants to try it too.....will the stupidity never cease? I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that France will be broke and crying for money in a short amount of time when the fool in charge realizes that what he "thinks" works and reality are 2 different things....

Cut spending and wasting, pay off debt and stay out of it...and have a balanced budget and knock off all the wasteful idiotic spending on programs that don't work, and pensions that don't produce anything.

The big one is all the pension fiascos that governments have been roped into...this crap just has to stop. The numbers are appalling...something like 95% of funds that Governments generate in tax revenue go into Government employee pensions! Those funds are handled by UNIONS and they turn around and Lobby the Government for even more money and more benefits etc....this is what almost (and might still) killed Greece! and they wont stop! now France..!

CHRIST! what will it take?? a total and utter collapse of everything before people wake up and realize they have been taken for a wild frickin' ride and the ride is over and car destroyed....with nothing in the future....

Learn from the failure of Greece and all the stupidity that is entangled there....IT DOESN'T WORK...period....

bite the bullet, pay the damn bills, save some dang money and get rid of debt and stay out of it.

So you and a LOT of other people will have to do with out for a (long) time....if you don't do it now, it will be worse later. Forget the rich, they are smarter then you are and will always be, They have money and what ever they have because THEY KNOW HOW TO USE IT AND MAKE IT WORK....most others don't, and whats worse, is most people don't care or want to learn!

Yet they are more then willing to Bitch about what the rich have and what THEY don't have.....BAH!

To the people of Greece and Soon France...>Suck it up and DO IT! you deserve it, because you voted these Bozos in office to begin with and they have taken you on a merry little fantasy ride that just went off the tracks.

LEARN, AND DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE IN THE FUTURE, WHEN SOME PIED PIPER STARTS PLAYING A TUNE OF EASY WEALTH AND HOW EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE SAME AND BLAH BLAH BLAH. Ignore it....keep on the path.

Free markets work, but only if you participate in them, build wealth, shun debt and the lure of 'easy money and life of leisure" they don't work unless you EARNED it first.

God help France and the rest of Europe....someone needs to shoot these stupid fools allowing this to happen

[Alexandra]

The reason the rich are and for the most part should be dispised is that most of them did not earn their money and insteed just inherrited and because of that they have no appreciatation for that money and waste it in hedonism. Plus even thoose who did earn their money usually earned it through decit and inhumanity and greed now of course there are exception to both rules I know tht first hand but at the same time the majority of rich people are horrible people. Also it sounds like blaming the victim here some people just have a hard life even if they make all the right descisions in life they could still end up broke begging for scraps on streets. just my opinion I know but there you go

[Bonsai]

Attention, there is a hidden power in being in debt. Who is in debt can delay payment and, in case the creditor tries to get back the money, can go bankrupt and cause a loss to the creditor.

Keep in mind that the money you have in your bank or in your wallet is nothing more than a credit you can spend to get goods. The thing works up to when there is trust that such credit can be spent. If the trust is gone, like it's about to happen now, anyone with credits in hand will try to exchange them with something solid.

This is not a good moment to have money in your bank, it would be much better to invest any money into activities that produce goods that are absolutely necessary in any situation and that customers will be always be willing to pay for or, even better, exchange with other goods.

Who has credit has all to lose, while instead who is in debt has nothing to lose.

Suggested reading: "The Business Affairs of Mr. Julius Caesar" by Bertolt Brecht

[Diapered Jason]

Ok Square_Duck, what is your view on Roosevelt's new deal versus what Hoover did? Also, what you described is communism, not socialism. This is also funny as I look at stimulus as investment. I have said this before in another thread, but I should say it again, the stimulus bill we had here in the U.S. was not an investment. When I think of stimulus, I think of construction projects, research projects, and education. I am not talking about welfare. To tell you all the truth, this is what I still expect the government to do and they have not done it. Instead, they waste money on tax cuts (by the way, every tax cut is an expenditure) while the states use the stimulus funds to temporarily balance their budgets. One of the huge differences between a household budget and a country's budget is the revenue. Revenue comes from taxes. Taxes are paid by people who are employed. What better way to increase revenue than to increase the opportunity for employment. If we spend money on say, replacing the byzantine power grid we have now, I think that would be a great investment and increase the opportunity for employment, which is not only from the project, but from the manufacturers of the materials and any other company that many be involved directly or indirectly. I think that would increase revenue as it would get the economy moving again. Of course, here in the U.S., there are many potential cuts to the budget that can be done as well, but I would prefer to have no one laid off in order to not hinder the economy as well as our budget (Every person laid off receives certain benefits and unemployment). I also think taxes should be raised on everyone.

[jaytay]

ICYMI: Greece also elected 21 neo-nazi's (http://www.theweek.co.uk/europe/euro-debt-crisis/46728/greece-elects-neo-nazis-amid-new-fears-euro-and-europe). That's fucked up.

[jaytay]

ICYMI: They also have a solution for immigration issues in their country. Place landmine's around the border of Greece. More effective than a fence?