Warning: Do Not Click If You Have Religious Views You Do Not Want Challenged

[belinda_sue_fox]

First paragraph..Waffle

Second paragraph..Your belief can't argue with that.

Third paragraph... See theres that word again "Believe" I was trying to get this thread back on track to what is and isn't provable.

[belinda_sue_fox]

Bugger i got gazumped!!! and the edit ain't popped up so i can edit and i'm off now.

I'll be back, as someone said in the bible, or was it a film?

[wetman]

...

It is my belief that no known organized religion is singularly true or offers you something that another religion cannot offer.

...

Bettypooh

This is exactly what I like about Discordianism (albeit it is a deliberately disorganised doctrine): The 5^th commandment of the Penatbarf states: 'A Discordian is Prohibited from Believing What he reads.' This obviously includes the commandment itself, showing the ridiculousness of it.

Also the quote:

Greater Poop: Is Eris true?

Malaclypse the Younger: Everything is true.

GP: Even false things?

M2: Even false things are true.

GP: How can that be?

M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.

and:

Would-be Discordians are told in the Principia Discordia:

If you want in on the Discordian Society

then declare yourself what you wish

do what you like

and tell us about it

or

if you prefer

don't.

There are no rules anywhere.The Goddess Prevails.

—Malaclypse the Younger,

Principia Discordia

, Page 00032

This makes sense, most other religions don't all that much to me.

[Alexandra]

There is an obvious disparity here I will say again- religion equals a search for what one thinks is true and good; there is no other reason to become religious within the bounds of any religion's tenets. All the major religions I have studied (and they are many) forbid your becoming part of it until you believe it; to propose that someone would choose to believe that which they do not feel is true is ludicrous. Most expressly forbid you becoming a part of it for personal gain or profit, for only the social aspects it offers, or to take advantage of other things it offers. And most also require that you state publicly that you believe that religion is exclusively true, with all others being false.

It is my belief that no known organized religion is singularly true or offers you something that another religion cannot offer. That is why my own beliefs preclude my being a part of any organized religion. Beyond their social and support structures they have nothing to offer anyone in this lifetime other than a prepackaged set of beliefs that all have something provably wrong with them. One does not have to be in error, so I am not going to blindly accept what anyone or anything tells me until I believe it true based on my own personal investigation and experiences.

Just because anyone or anything says something is true does not make it so, though it does do something- it makes the depth of that person's thought processes more evident and it shows how well they are in touch with reality (or not). Believe what you will, but know that believing wrongly means that you have been fooled. Take from that what you will

Bettypooh

One thing as far as I know the only religions that exclusively ban the worship of other faiths is the abrahamic religions

[Alexandra]

The French have an even better idea. No religious teachings, clothing, or symbols are allowed or promoted in the state education system. After you're 18, it's up to the individual to decide.

I think you'll find most of northern Europe is heading the same way along with the Scandinavians. Also with the eastern European and Russian independent states now westernising. Though religion was banned during communism, it has never recovered post communism.

It will also help in the future dealing with the worlds biggest import/exporter the Chinese, who tend to be Agnostic/Atheist.

There are plenty of other things wrong with Britain like the 'nanny state', but religious zealots are one of the things being tackled.

Even the Church of England may be forced to perform 'Gay' marriages, how the catholic church, Islam and the rest react will be interesting. If the C of E have to do this, then it will be law for all religions recognize gay marriage, even if it is against their teachings.

The Law is considered above religious doctrine.

Thats good but perhapses a little too much in the other direction the forbidding of any personal religious expression until a child is 18 is just as opressing as forcing any one religion on a child, but thats just my opinion. Also isn't Chinese religion all centered around gods and ancestoral worship mind you its been a while since I last read up on chinese faith and maybe that is now a dead religion or something.

[Guest gnappies]

Thats good but perhapses a little too much in the other direction the forbidding of any personal religious expression until a child is 18 is just as opressing as forcing any one religion on a child, but thats just my opinion. Also isn't Chinese religion all centered around gods and ancestoral worship mind you its been a while since I last read up on chinese faith and maybe that is now a dead religion or something.

There is nothing stopping the parents taking their children to church/temple/mosque, or religious schooling. But it is not brought into School.

The Chinese 'allow', traditional celebration, and religious beliefs, but if it starts interfering with government, (region or local) there's a whole world of trouble heading your way.

[Alexandra]

still seams like any sort of regulation one way or the other is wrong in this case but as I said before thats just my opinion. good to know about the chinese, thanks

[Diapered Jason]

I agree with Alexandra when I say it is probably taking it too far to forbid any kind of religious paraphernalia in schools. Case in point would be preventing Sikhs from wearing turbans and Jews from wearing a kippa. Of course, religion should stay out of the classroom unless that is the topic of the class and the syllabus should always be secular, but we do not need to take it this far nor is it all that useful. During my time in the education system, religious paraphernalia worn by students and teachers was never really an issue anyway.

[KittenAB]

I agree with Alexandra when I say it is probably taking it too far to forbid any kind of religious paraphernalia in schools. Case in point would be preventing Sikhs from wearing turbans and Jews from wearing a kippa. Of course, religion should stay out of the classroom unless that is the topic of the class and the syllabus should always be secular, but we do not need to take it this far nor is it all that useful. During my time in the education system, religious paraphernalia worn by students and teachers was never really an issue anyway.

Well, it is grounded in logic. Every religion is offensive to almost all other religions. So the presence of religious materials can create problems, and the government can't play favorites at all. So to avoid this, banning it all in public schools is the logical conclusion. Until all religions can demonstrate the tolerance of other beliefs, like the way Jainism or Discordianism are, then I agree it is the best solution. The irony in this is that the religions that are already do not have anything to give up in this type of ruling while it also encourages the closed minded and bigoted religions to shape up or ship out.

I do believe private schools still exist there, and are likely not bound by this law, I may be incorrect in this and welcome being corrected if so.

[Diapered Jason]

Well, it is grounded in logic. Every religion is offensive to almost all other religions. So the presence of religious materials can create problems, and the government can't play favorites at all. So to avoid this, banning it all in public schools is the logical conclusion. Until all religions can demonstrate the tolerance of other beliefs, like the way Jainism or Discordianism are, then I agree it is the best solution. The irony in this is that the religions that are already do not have anything to give up in this type of ruling while it also encourages the closed minded and bigoted religions to shape up or ship out.

I do believe private schools still exist there, and are likely not bound by this law, I may be incorrect in this and welcome being corrected if so.

Well, I am still deciding myself where to draw the line. I was thinking clothing, hats, jewels, etc. that have an inherent religious context are fine. To further my earlier point, I want to ask you the questions, "Would you agree to such a law to apply to all public property? If no, then why apply this law only to public schools? If yes, then are we suppose to all shop at the Gap or something?" I think dress codes are stupid, especially at the K-12 level.

Still, I feel this issue is totally unrelative of the problems I had with the education system in the U.S., such as bringing up creationism in 7th grade biology as well as some other similar things. I don't care if some Jewish kid is wearing a Star of David as long as there is no lighting of candles to celebrate Hanukkah in the classroom. Same goes for Christmas trees. These things were never really an issue as far as my experience goes.

[Alexandra]

Creationism? where I've never heard of that being taught in any public schools around here.

[Guest gnappies]

Well, I am still deciding myself where to draw the line. I was thinking clothing, hats, jewels, etc. that have an inherent religious context are fine. To further my earlier point, I want to ask you the questions, "Would you agree to such a law to apply to all public property? If no, then why apply this law only to public schools? If yes, then are we suppose to all shop at the Gap or something?" I think dress codes are stupid, especially at the K-12 level.

Still, I feel this issue is totally unrelative of the problems I had with the education system in the U.S., such as bringing up creationism in 7th grade biology as well as some other similar things. I don't care if some Jewish kid is wearing a Star of David as long as there is no lighting of candles to celebrate Hanukkah in the classroom. Same goes for Christmas trees. These things were never really an issue as far as my experience goes.

In Europe it's more to do with personal choice of the individual. The young Jewish lad you use as an example, let's say he's pre-teen. He is being taught at home that he is part of the Jewish faith. This is a bit of a grey area, as strictly speaking it is breaking the law as the family is infringing the child's 'Human Right to self determination". At a young age the child cannot be expected to have made a reasoned choice to follow a particular faith. Though this has very rarely been used against a family, the potential is there. As we get more Agnostic over here, it is likely to start cropping up.

As for public property, it is illegal for most public bodies to promote one religion over another, this does not apply to charities. Most of the bodies will try and encompass most of the dominant faiths in there area, or take a neutral stance. "Christmas" is a big bone of contention over here, although most of the population celebrate it what ever faith, some councils have used the name "Winter Festival", many a public row has ensued over this.

Personally although I have no faith, I don't have an issue with the public holidays that are christian related. I see them now more as a traditional and cultural normality, with little relevance paid to the faith they originate from, which of course is actually Pagan rituals.

[Guest gnappies]

Creationism? where I've never heard of that being taught in any public schools around here.

Look up "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster", for an amusing view on it.

[Diapered Jason]

Creationism? where I've never heard of that being taught in any public schools around here.

At my school, they called it spontaneous generation, but then the teacher said evolution was the correct idea. Nevertheless, it was in the text and they had to bring it up.

Look up "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster", for an amusing view on it.

Lol, is that name from South Park?

[Guest gnappies]

At my school, they called it spontaneous generation, but then the teacher said evolution was the correct idea. Nevertheless, it was in the text and they had to bring it up.

Lol, is that name from South Park?

No, look it up. He did a parody the bible in an argument about creationism being taught in science classes, the wiki gives a bit of an account of this. He wasn't against religion, just where it was being taught in the curriculum.

He also took a swipe at global warming. Noted that as high sea pirates decreased in numbers, this coincided with the start of global warming, and that (fact) Somalia has the lowest carbon emissions in the world but the most pirates. Proof.

[KittenAB]

Creationism? where I've never heard of that being taught in any public schools around here.

Texas, sadly. Their whole public school system is the worst in the country.

Well, I am still deciding myself where to draw the line. I was thinking clothing, hats, jewels, etc. that have an inherent religious context are fine. To further my earlier point, I want to ask you the questions, "Would you agree to such a law to apply to all public property? If no, then why apply this law only to public schools? If yes, then are we suppose to all shop at the Gap or something?" I think dress codes are stupid, especially at the K-12 level.

Still, I feel this issue is totally unrelative of the problems I had with the education system in the U.S., such as bringing up creationism in 7th grade biology as well as some other similar things. I don't care if some Jewish kid is wearing a Star of David as long as there is no lighting of candles to celebrate Hanukkah in the classroom. Same goes for Christmas trees. These things were never really an issue as far as my experience goes.

Actually, I would say none should be displayed on public property, and the Christmas tree is secular not religious in any way. Religious symbols are the big concern not holiday symbols. However, we are not talking about adults here who are capable of making their own decisions and being held responsible for their actions, we are talking about children who are impressionable. Shall we start allowing swearing in schools by law as well? You see, the school is a place they go to learn, and the religious nuts have been using the "we must protect the children" argument a lot, so ... let's protect the children from all outside ideals that have nothing to do with facts, logic, and learning in public schools.

[KittenAB]

At my school, they called it spontaneous generation, but then the teacher said evolution was the correct idea. Nevertheless, it was in the text and they had to bring it up.

Lol, is that name from South Park?

Nope, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually an atheist middle finger to the religious zealots. You cannot prove the great Spaghetti Monster does not exist, therefore it does, and it watches over all life on Earth. I believe it's origins are from a Dawkins speech, or was it a Hutchins speech, both are great men. So, the joke persisted and now, they have been elaborating this made up religion. The entire thing being based on religious zealot logic and has the same validity as any christian cult.

[wetman]

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Pastafarianism), as well as the Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Discordianism, the Church of the Sub Genius and a few others point out (on various levels) how unreasonable the big formal religions are and thereby, in my opinion, serve a good purpose. Some of these parody religions have developed into something of a philosophical way of looking at the world and some just stayed a joke. Even then they should not be disregarded; they give you the 'what if' side of the argument that is necessary to grow an opinion instead of just accepting someone else's.

[Bettypooh]

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Pastafarianism), as well as the Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Discordianism, the Church of the Sub Genius and a few others point out (on various levels) how unreasonable the big formal religions are and thereby, in my opinion, serve a good purpose. Some of these parody religions have developed into something of a philosophical way of looking at the world and some just stayed a joke. Even then they should not be disregarded; they give you the 'what if' side of the argument that is necessary to grow an opinion instead of just accepting someone else's.

Red text emphasized by me. This is where my biggest disagreement with religion resides- they are not content to just leave the doors open and call for people to enter, they want to prohibit people who disagree from disagreeing and instead of letting the obvious truth and good they proclaim to have exclusive rights to work to gain more adherents, they go out and try to browbeat people into joining them. Organized religion would be the world's biggest joke if it were not that the majority of people have fallen for it and insulated themselves against even considering that they might just be wrong.

Unless you question something thoroughly you cannot know it to be true. If you allow someone else to create your beliefs you are unintelligent. If anything is obviously good, people will come to it in time without the need to herd them there.If it is truly good it will be obvious, if not immediately then in time. All the major organized religions have had that time but none have been able to draw even the vast majority in. From that I offer the obvious- that there must not be the good in them that they proclaim is there. And that of and by itself means they are intentionally lying to deceive when there is no need to- which we all know is not good.

I agree with Alexandra when I say it is probably taking it too far to forbid any kind of religious paraphernalia in schools....

I would disagree- I believe that there should be no allowance for any religious expression in schools save for things in private or which are being shared only with those who desire to be a part of that sharing. Nobody's god decided the rules of language and grammar; nobody's god made 2+2=4; nobody's god wrote the annals of history; and nobody's god made an acid react to a base- so nobody's god belongs in school. If a student wishes to pray, allow them to do that in silence- their god has to be able to read their thoughts or he isn't much of a god. If a student wants to start a 'bible club' or a 'koran club' and the school allows such social clubs, then by all means let them do that. But don't tell an Islam that he has to be subjected to a baptist-style prayer at a ball game and don't tell a baptist that they have to be subjected to hearing prayers from a mosque daily. Only by allowing none can you be fair, for allowing all or part of all will simply create friction as each tries to out-do the others.

When a religion can prove infallibly that it is right, the world will come to it. Until then all religion is just hogwash used to brainwash and to make it's adherent's feel good, which in the end accomplishes nothing good at all. You are defined by your beliefs and some possible definitions are stupid, gullible, prejudiced, and hateful. You should think carefully about that before you go into a religion because the odds are good that if the majority thinks any of those terms apply to you and your religion, they are probably right. It is most certainly something worth thinking about!

Bettypooh

[Diapered Jason]

I would disagree- I believe that there should be no allowance for any religious expression in schools save for things in private or which are being shared only with those who desire to be a part of that sharing. Nobody's god decided the rules of language and grammar; nobody's god made 2+2=4; nobody's god wrote the annals of history; and nobody's god made an acid react to a base- so nobody's god belongs in school. If a student wishes to pray, allow them to do that in silence- their god has to be able to read their thoughts or he isn't much of a god. If a student wants to start a 'bible club' or a 'koran club' and the school allows such social clubs, then by all means let them do that. But don't tell an Islam that he has to be subjected to a baptist-style prayer at a ball game and don't tell a baptist that they have to be subjected to hearing prayers from a mosque daily. Only by allowing none can you be fair, for allowing all or part of all will simply create friction as each tries to out-do the others.

This is not what I meant. Prayer is of course off limits in the classroom as this would be a big disruption. In schools, they often have a separate room setup for these people that they can go to during lunch to perform their prayers and that is the only place and I think time they can do it. Again, I was referring to clothing worn by the students and faculty such as jewelry like a amulet with a cross and even hijabs. I am all for freedom of expression no matter how dumb it may be as long as it does not interfere. Of course, I always think if the teacher finds it too distracting for the other students, he/she has the right to ban it from their classroom.

[Alexandra]

Red text emphasized by me. This is where my biggest disagreement with religion resides- they are not content to just leave the doors open and call for people to enter, they want to prohibit people who disagree from disagreeing and instead of letting the obvious truth and good they proclaim to have exclusive rights to work to gain more adherents, they go out and try to browbeat people into joining them. Organized religion would be the world's biggest joke if it were not that the majority of people have fallen for it and insulated themselves against even considering that they might just be wrong.

Unless you question something thoroughly you cannot know it to be true. If you allow someone else to create your beliefs you are unintelligent. If anything is obviously good, people will come to it in time without the need to herd them there.If it is truly good it will be obvious, if not immediately then in time. All the major organized religions have had that time but none have been able to draw even the vast majority in. From that I offer the obvious- that there must not be the good in them that they proclaim is there. And that of and by itself means they are intentionally lying to deceive when there is no need to- which we all know is not good.

I would disagree- I believe that there should be no allowance for any religious expression in schools save for things in private or which are being shared only with those who desire to be a part of that sharing. Nobody's god decided the rules of language and grammar; nobody's god made 2+2=4; nobody's god wrote the annals of history; and nobody's god made an acid react to a base- so nobody's god belongs in school. If a student wishes to pray, allow them to do that in silence- their god has to be able to read their thoughts or he isn't much of a god. If a student wants to start a 'bible club' or a 'koran club' and the school allows such social clubs, then by all means let them do that. But don't tell an Islam that he has to be subjected to a baptist-style prayer at a ball game and don't tell a baptist that they have to be subjected to hearing prayers from a mosque daily. Only by allowing none can you be fair, for allowing all or part of all will simply create friction as each tries to out-do the others.

When a religion can prove infallibly that it is right, the world will come to it. Until then all religion is just hogwash used to brainwash and to make it's adherent's feel good, which in the end accomplishes nothing good at all. You are defined by your beliefs and some possible definitions are stupid, gullible, prejudiced, and hateful. You should think carefully about that before you go into a religion because the odds are good that if the majority thinks any of those terms apply to you and your religion, they are probably right. It is most certainly something worth thinking about!

Bettypooh

I sorry but you sound like an extreamest, humans are blessed with the gift of free thought so even if a religion is the absolute truth its not a garuntee that everyone will see it and its rather mean to say that these religions are intentionally lying. Also, and this is just my opinion, the forbidding of religious expression is just as vile as the forcing of a certain religious belief on someone because really aren't you then by fordiding religous expression then just forcing atheistic beliefs or at the very least secular beliefs on a child if it is the child's choice to wear a cross of gold or to read aloud a norito, shinto prayer, then they shouldn't be punished for that and while you may make the argument of their family s forcing that religion on them I would ask how ca you prove that just because they're young I choose to become pegan when I was 10 years old without any proding from anyone else so you can't just say kids can't find their own beliefs. also Most religions do believe that a god or goddess or the God created all of thoose subject or at least controls them. no by allowing the individual to choose what to believe and wheter to experess thoose beliefs is fair and while thats entirely possible it will happen with or without religion there. And I feel like your confussing all regions for the monotheistic religions what about hinduism, shintoism, buddhism, pantheism they do not forbide or discorage other faiths so your being very blanket in your statements. And again I feel like your being needlessy mean and althuristic here and while I see where your coming from, I really do, the same can be said of athiesm you can't prove that there is no god or gods anymore than anyone can prove there is so to say a persons beliefs are hogwash just because they're aren't infallible is rather cruel don't you think. And its kind of conspiristory-theroy like to say all religions brainwash people and whats wrong with makeing some one feel good, I'll refer you to my first post on page 1 here, is feeling like there is no reward for life in the next really a neccisty in life I don't think so. again I think your being very rude and cruel to religions just because you do not have a belief does not mean you have to attack other beliefs if some uses a religion to justify something morally wrong then fine attack them by all means I'll even help but to say that believing in thing that bring you comfort is wrong and stupid is just mean and rather prejudiciced/hateful on your part

[Pampered_Cowboy]

I am not relegious. I am a Christian. I believe that Jesus is real and he did came down to save all man kind. As well fully what the full believe what the Bible tells me. I not going to push anything on yall I just telling you what I believe. God gave us free will to do what we want. As well to decided how to live our lives. I choose to live for him. I can testify that God has done amazing things in my life as well healed me of cancer.

[Bettypooh]

Alexandra, had you read all the posts here you would have seen where I do claim a religion- just not an established secular one. Schools are not institutions for expression as many seem to think today, but are institutions for learning and that process is disrupted when someone becomes offended by someone else's religious expression which does not have to happen in school. Carrying that further to society as a whole the same thing occurs- one religion offends another when freely expressed publicly.

So in your next tirade please begin with explaining why religion needs to be expressed publicly. As long as one is permitted to express it privately and live among society without offending someone who believes otherwise religion is fine by me. It's always when a religion offends someone that trouble begins- it has been the base cause of many wars and killings which would not have likely happened otherwise. Thus I say it should end, and the best place to start that process is in school.

Bettypooh

[Alexandra]

I apologise for that I missed that post on your religion and I also apologies if it sounded like I was trying to attack you, I assure you that was not my goal, I was simply stating how that post sounded. That being said I stand by everything else I said and though I thought I made my position queit clear let me try again do think freedom of speech is good, would you be ok if your words were controlled in public to avoid someone saying something offensive to someone else but you can say what you want at home if not then why is religion any different. If you want a more personal anecdote I always say a quick prayer to Athena before a big test in school, not to convert any one or to start a fight but simply because I find comfort in asking my goddess for guidance. And do I deserve to be punished for that we'll don't think so. Also I would disagree with you on schools being about experession vs. Being about education. Its both, studies In psychology have shown that students learn better when they are happy and students are happiest when allowed to express themselfs

[KittenAB]

This is not what I meant. Prayer is of course off limits in the classroom as this would be a big disruption. In schools, they often have a separate room setup for these people that they can go to during lunch to perform their prayers and that is the only place and I think time they can do it. Again, I was referring to clothing worn by the students and faculty such as jewelry like a amulet with a cross and even hijabs. I am all for freedom of expression no matter how dumb it may be as long as it does not interfere. Of course, I always think if the teacher finds it too distracting for the other students, he/she has the right to ban it from their classroom.

This reminds me of the myth in the US that prayer is banned in schools. It's a myth because it's not banned, students and teachers are allowed to pray, there can just be no organized prayers during class. Same with scripture studies, though many christians forced the Mormons to stop doing theirs in the schools. Funny, all the laws they could complain about were in fact enacted because of their own.

I am not relegious. I am a Christian. I believe that Jesus is real and he did came down to save all man kind. As well fully what the full believe what the Bible tells me. I not going to push anything on yall I just telling you what I believe. God gave us free will to do what we want. As well to decided how to live our lives. I choose to live for him. I can testify that God has done amazing things in my life as well healed me of cancer.

So, your bible says it's the word of god, you know it's the word of god because the bible says it is.

Tell me, did you never get medication for your cancer? If you did, then it wasn't prayer but science that did it. Thanks to science cancer is not a death sentence, what the bible says however would be. If you followed the bible accurately you would be covered in animal blood and dead.