Can "Punishment" Effect Meaningful Change?

[Jen Harris]

I'm just wondering - do you think that punishment - of the diaper or spanking, or sissy or generally sexual variety - can actually help a person change their ways? And if it can, what's the best way to do it?

A lot of stories have been written with this premise. The protagonist does something bad - be it have an accident, disrespect his wife/sister/girlfriend, or whatever - and is forced into diapers as "punishment". As classically construed, it's not only unrealistic, but no punishment at all - we wouldn't write these kind of stories if they weren't our fantasies. They also typically go way out of reality.

But to come back to reality. Say you had a willing partner (who would "enforce" the rules you wrote), and a goal in life you wanted to achieve. Would there be any way to use diapers, or other kinky activities, to help you focus on and move towards that goal? Would diapers be a reward? Or are they only useful for fun, and not for changing your life?

[curiositykilledthecat]

prison rape doesn't keep drug peddlers from peddling drugs so probably not.

[Jen Harris]

prison rape doesn't keep drug peddlers from peddling drugs so probably not.

That has nothing to do with what I was asking about.

I'm talking about "fun" punishments.

Say you had a magic box (or partner) that would, once you set it up, make you incontinent whenever some set of conditions was met. Or that would give you a sound spanking whenever a set of conditions was met.

Would this just be something fun, or do you think you could use it to change yourself in a constructive way?

[Bettypooh]

As I often do, here is a corollary to help explain my thoughts. On a TG forum a Dom came aboard and said they would punish a person by making them cross-dress. One very smart members response was "You can't make me do what I'm already doing and am going to do anyway"

This seems to be a very similar situation. It might have a real effect if the 'punished' wasn't 24/7 or public and had to go past their comfort zone by wearing in the real world like at work, but even that effect would likely have the unwanted consequence of them discovering that nobody really notices so they might begin to do that all by themselves. (talk about a run-on sentence, LOL!) Thus, such a 'punishment' would likely backfire and be counter-productive in the end About the only two 'punishments' I can see as effective for us is to have our diapers taken away, which for those who need them would be a real hardship The other is to have to keep one's diaper on for a longer time than they are comfortable with, such as causing them a rash because of the excess time

A better approach would be positive reinforcement, ie more diaper time or more spousal acceptance/cooperative play. There has been a thread here about developing a 'magic incontinence box' which might be possible. It's something that was well discussed there, and which I will will look into deeper someday as there may be a cheap, easy, and safe way to do this. If I find it works, you'll see it here first!

Bettypooh

[Mr. Sea Otter]

I am not sure about using diapers, but spanking, sure. Take a look at all the info out there on domestic discipline... its real and it can work. I've had a couple of relationships where we gave this a try. It has its limits and isn't the right tool for all problems, so depending on what you mean by 'change your ways' it may or may not work. But let just say I am really good about not leaving the toilet seat up anymore!

[Diapered Jason]

Can punishment affect meaningful change?

The answer I think is yes, as I believe they call this slave training. This activity is much more serious and goes beyond role-play as the dominant is trying to impart change. Of course, as Bettypooh says, comfort zones will have to be stretched, but not necessarily in the way she is imagining it though. I do not have very much knowledge in this, but a suitable punishment to affect change would be something you are not use too. Then once you got use to that and there is not doubt that a slave would eventually, the punishment would be advanced further.

[musicaddict]

I believe a lot of a punishment is psychological. If a partner were able to project their disappointment or pain and enforce the punishment, it is possible that our mind would make the association in regards to those circumstances and it would become unpleasant.

After all, as a child you are not afraid of being grounded or losing privileges, you are afraid of upsetting and disappointing your parents.

[sarah_ab]

anything, if it is motivating enough, and a person has enough will power to follow through, can elicit change.

A person who wants to lose weight, will use the idea of a new dress one size too small to encourage exercise and eating right.

So a person who say, wants to finish their school work each night by 7 pm, may have their reward as being a diaper... and their punishment being a spanking, or an enema, etc... something they truly do not enjoy.. and would truly be a 'punishment'

[Jen Harris]

anything, if it is motivating enough, and a person has enough will power to follow through, can elicit change.

A person who wants to lose weight, will use the idea of a new dress one size too small to encourage exercise and eating right.

So a person who say, wants to finish their school work each night by 7 pm, may have their reward as being a diaper... and their punishment being a spanking, or an enema, etc... something they truly do not enjoy.. and would truly be a 'punishment'

So diapers as a reward? That's a strategy. I don't know how well it would work. And as for spanking/enema... Never done either of those, and while they aren't my main interests, I could see myself.... potentially enjoying them.

I started this thread in part because I was thinking about interests in my life that have really stuck with me - and none has like diapers. Nothing else can I think of that I've been as interested in as long. Not women, not cross-dressing, not computers, nothing!

So in a way I want to use that consistent interest as a fuel to help me move towards my life goals - and stick with those changes.

But in the past, whenever I try something like that, it turns into "I wanted an excuse to wear diapers".

[curiositykilledthecat]

Fun punishment....hmmm... Well I could state that yes it bring change in the context of roleplay however punishing me with what I want isn't really punishing me unless you make it so that I don't want it. Either way forced regression and spanking can be fun whether wanted or not in my book.

[TheKid]

I would say yes. However, in this case, what seems like a 'punishment' may actually be desirable so we are really talking about a reward. From what little I know of psychology, positive/negative reinforcement is the most effective system. Simply rewarding someone for good behavior is just not as effective and simply punishing them for bad behavior is even less so - which is why I do not advocate corporal punishment. These 'fun' punishments can be your positive reinforcement, and denial of these activities or ...any other fun thing you can think of... can be your negative reinforcement. Whatever method you choose consistency is paramount. If the rules aren't strictly enforced it will never work. Incidentally I hear the single most effective way to change others' behavior is 'shunning'.

[Yvhuce]

Fear of a serious whupping can most certainly cause a change of behavior, as opposed to so-called punishments like "time out". The thing is, though, it only really works for kids. Also, having an accident isn't doing something wrong. That's why it's called an "accident". Diaper punishment would do little to nothing, apart from getting you your own topic in Diapers In The News... The punishment needs to set up to fit the mindset of the offender, in order to make them not want to do what they did again... Though, in some cases, such as with criminals, the only truly effective punishment is death... You can only really change someone who is willing to change. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time.

[Jen Harris]

Fear of a serious whupping can most certainly cause a change of behavior, as opposed to so-called punishments like "time out". The thing is, though, it only really works for kids. Also, having an accident isn't doing something wrong. That's why it's called an "accident". Diaper punishment would do little to nothing, apart from getting you your own topic in Diapers In The News... The punishment needs to set up to fit the mindset of the offender, in order to make them not want to do what they did again... Though, in some cases, such as with criminals, the only truly effective punishment is death... You can only really change someone who is willing to change. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time.

For the record I'm not talking about kids (and if I had kids, I would never unwillingly diaper mine). Also if I have an "accident"... it's usually anything but . I usually want attention and/or a diapering... but that's as an adult.

What I'm talking about deep, unwilling changes like reforming a convict. I'm talking more about achieving goals that you know you want to achieve, but never seem to be able to quite get done. Like stopping procrastination. Going to the gym. Eating healthier. Saving money. Things like that. Something you just need a little push to keep you focused on.

Or in other words - can you use diapers to make you a better person, even in a small way?

[malus_infantia]

Or in other words - can you use diapers to make you a better person, even in a small way?

Sure. Any sort of reward schedule can be used to make you a better person (rather help you become what you think is a better person). There's a couple of things to keep in mind with this. The thing is, is that if you're into punishment (or funishment as some call it) and humiliation as a sexual thrill it's not a genuine punishment...it's fun.

1) Positive reinforcement works better than positive punishment (getting something you like [such as diapers] will work more consistently than getting something you don't like [such as an enema without a diaper]).

2) If you're doing this on your own, you will try to game whatever system you set up (you'll still try to game it if you're doing it with someone else, but the other person will be able to call you on it).

3) If you're doing this with someone else, be sure that the two of you are working towards the same goals, and are using multiple methods of realizing those goals.

4) Figuring out which punishments are -actually- rewards and using them as a reward will yield better results than punishing yourself with something that you enjoy. Likewise, figure out what punishments are -genuinely- punishments, and use those when you need to be punished.

Structuring the plan for what is sought, and structuring the reward/punishment schedule for breaking that plan is the really important part of this kind of behavior mod. Make sure the goal is obtainable, break it into smaller goals, make sure the rewards are sufficient but not so sufficient as to render moot the goal, and make sure the punishments are sufficiently effective but not so severe as to be something you won't actually do to yourself.

[The Little Marcin]

If person who is punished enjoys his punishment and accepts it then I don't think he would change his ways because of that. If that would be something that is not 'fun' punishment, more hardcore than it depends on person:

a) rebellious:that person would say: "This is going to far, I don't like it. We're not doing that any more!"

submissive: "Please don't do that again. I'll be good."

[DprDJeff]

Every dynamic is different, so the dominant partner needs to know how to effect that change. I often use the opposite of punishment to make a change take place. If a sub is intentionally breaking the rules to earn a punishment, then it is no punishment at all. In those instances, I choose to ignore her instead and make sure she knows why I'm ignoring her.

So, to answer the original poster's question... I firmly believe that punishment can effect real change. However, that punishment needs to be tailored to the person you are trying to change. If they enjoy being diapered and/or spanked, then those activities would be rewards, not punishment. Most subs like that want activity, so taking it away can be the best punishment. Punish them in a way that is truly a punishment in their mind. Perhaps several hours in the corner being ignored... or a full day out of diapers.

[babylin]

Jen Harris wrote: "Or in other words - can you use diapers to make you a better person, even in a small way? "

Hope I'm becoming a better person. I use diapers as my reward for exercising. Already on my back on a mat on the floor, why not do a few leg lifts and crunches?

I'm still new at it and don't do it every time I put on a diaper, but I can feel results; losing a little weight.

Happiness Is Wearing Cotton Diapers

[Jen Harris]

Every dynamic is different, so the dominant partner needs to know how to effect that change. I often use the opposite of punishment to make a change take place. If a sub is intentionally breaking the rules to earn a punishment, then it is no punishment at all. In those instances, I choose to ignore her instead and make sure she knows why I'm ignoring her.

So, to answer the original poster's question... I firmly believe that punishment can effect real change. However, that punishment needs to be tailored to the person you are trying to change. If they enjoy being diapered and/or spanked, then those activities would be rewards, not punishment. Most subs like that want activity, so taking it away can be the best punishment. Punish them in a way that is truly a punishment in their mind. Perhaps several hours in the corner being ignored... or a full day out of diapers.

I've argued on my blog that the original reason I got into diapers was probably attention, and so you're right that being ignored can be the worst punishment of all.

Still, I don't (currently) regularly wear diapers, and something seems just a little bit off about using them as a reward, and not a punishment.

A lot of things on this "spectrum" start to straddle the line between punishment and reward. Embarrassment, or worrying about the risk of it, can be a very negative feeling, but the rush can also be positive sometimes.

Spanking combines attention (good) with pain (bad). Messing is in its own world - very inconvenient cleanup, embarrassing, something I do only very rarely by myself... but is it really a punishment?

Of course, diapers would only truly be a reward if my fiancee was really into it. If she were to give her tacit approval... well that defeats the whole embarrassing attention aspect of it.

The reason to ask is because I have goals that I really want to achieve. I have had good periods of a few weeks or months but I can never seem to deliver the consistent effort I need to live the life I want. I started thinking about things I have stuck with, and I realized there's no interest I've had longer than diapers. Nothing even comes close. It's been a strong interest over the years, even if at times it took a back seat. From childhood to adulthood and everywhere in between.

If I could channel that strong compulsion into something meaningful, it would really help me to be closer to the person I want to be.

[Yvhuce]

I'd suggest therapy, if you're wanting to change your life. Get professional help. That's what they're for. To help people better themselves and straighten out their lives. I'm seeing a shrink to help me get over social anxiety. This is something that negative reinforcement just makes worse, and diapers are no help with... But I've been making some good progress with professional help. I recently drove myself to the next town over and caught a movie. I've never actually done that before...

For adults, punishment rarely works. That's why I'm all for a swift death penalty for all manner of criminals. They aren't going to be rehabilitated anyway... And the system refuses to see that. Or when they do, they bring out BS like life sentences and multiple life sentences...

[Bettypooh]

People can be reformed, but only if they want to be reformed. Just ask any recovering addict about this- without that desire you get nowhere. The wrong environment makes such a reformation hard or impossible, but the right environment gives you the chance to fix yourself. There are some people who will not be changed, and when their problem harms other innocent people then they need to be punished and removed from society. If the level of harm is so high they need to be put away forever (a real life sentence, not what passes for one in most places) then maybe we should allow them to simply die at the first opportunity fate gives us to allow that.

I used to be for capital punishment, but I now see it as a thing to be used only when there is an absolute certainty that the criminal did indeed commit the heinous crime, and not somebody else. I changed my thinking after being twice convicted for much smaller things I wasn't guilty of, and realizing that death penalty cases go through the same system where truth takes a back seat to almost everything else, where a poor person is likely to lose where a rich person wouldn't, and where you cannot do a single thing to remove prejudiced and stupid people from the system as they go on harming innocent people. Death is final, and if you later discover it was a wrongful conviction you cannot correct it, amend it, or try to repair it in any way.

Punishment can cause reform if the punishment is severe enough, but only then. The reason most criminals become repeat offenders is because we're not punishing them enough. Make prison life almost unbearable and most people won't go back to their old ways. Do like many countries do- put them in a cell alone for the entire length of their sentence; no TV, no recreation, no social contact, nothing but time to think about what put you there. Make prison the joke it is in the US now and you'll find what we have now- a society full of unfixed problems caused by unfixed people sent to us by an unfixed system that is supposed to be helping us, not harming us.

Bettypooh

[diaperpt]

Interesting conversation here.

I think the comments about needing to define punishment vs reward are on target.

We know that punishment - or at least 'consequences' - for children works. Someone mentioned that all of this depends on the individuals and the dynamics between them - I agree with that.

I can see that in some cases, some form of punishment may work to help someone achieve something they really want but it must be with permission. For instance my wife will often say, "Don't let me eat the rest of those potato chips"(for example). If I just say something, it means nothing. If I were to try to force the issue, it would cause problems. For others, this sort of thing might well work.

As to whether punishment can mold behavior against the wishes of the person punished, I think there are also a lot of other undesired behaviors which might well spring out of such punishment.

Someone above mentioned slavery. This in the context of dom/sub implies permission. In the real context of enslavement, we've clearly seen that punishment can have its affects and can change behaviors out of fear. From there, any number of individual behavioral reactions could develop depending on the individual. Perhaps total submission and destruction of self-will. Perhaps desire for escape from the situation or revenge. And perhaps a whole range of other behaviors.

I can say for myself - and I've read the same of others here - that even what my mother looked at as simple discipline caused the behavior changes she sought, but also other behavior changes that have lasted my lifetime to this day (though I'm working on some of them and accepting others like my affinity for diapers). This was however discipline and her own behavior toward me from birth on.

[Jen Harris]

Interesting conversation here.

I think the comments about needing to define punishment vs reward are on target.

We know that punishment - or at least 'consequences' - for children works. Someone mentioned that all of this depends on the individuals and the dynamics between them - I agree with that.

I can see that in some cases, some form of punishment may work to help someone achieve something they really want but it must be with permission. For instance my wife will often say, "Don't let me eat the rest of those potato chips"(for example). If I just say something, it means nothing. If I were to try to force the issue, it would cause problems. For others, this sort of thing might well work.

As to whether punishment can mold behavior against the wishes of the person punished, I think there are also a lot of other undesired behaviors which might well spring out of such punishment.

Someone above mentioned slavery. This in the context of dom/sub implies permission. In the real context of enslavement, we've clearly seen that punishment can have its affects and can change behaviors out of fear. From there, any number of individual behavioral reactions could develop depending on the individual. Perhaps total submission and destruction of self-will. Perhaps desire for escape from the situation or revenge. And perhaps a whole range of other behaviors.

I can say for myself - and I've read the same of others here - that even what my mother looked at as simple discipline caused the behavior changes she sought, but also other behavior changes that have lasted my lifetime to this day (though I'm working on some of them and accepting others like my affinity for diapers). This was however discipline and her own behavior toward me from birth on.

So I'm really talking about something between two consenting adults, to change behavior that both parties want to change.

Your potato chips example is on the scale that I am talking about. Trying to eat better. Something small like that, which both parties want to see happen. Breaking bad habits that you both want to break.

I'm not talking about molding someone into a slave, curing a criminal, or anything deeper like that.

It's hard for me to construct a situation in which diapers are used constructively, because a part of it is a submissive angle. If diapers were really a reward for doing something, it'd feel odd; less submissive somehow. If they are a punishment - then there's always that factor that I might be enjoying it (I definitely do not always enjoy it, but it's hard to predict).

I've been toying with a related "psychologically useful" idea; I might write about it in my blog sometime.

[Leilin]

Can it affect meaningful change? Sure!

Will that meaningful change always be what the punisher intends? Not so much.

[jamesbaby2012]

Diaper punishment definately works. With the obvious excaption of correcting poor personal hygene.

[Jen Harris]

Diaper punishment definately works. With the obvious excaption of correcting poor personal hygene.

Why do you say that? And wouldn't someone who enjoys diapers be an exception?