What Do You Think Of The Abdl Fetish Flag/symbol?

[hey2all]

In no way am I trying to attack anyone personally =-)....... Just sharing my opinion

On several abdl sites I visit regularily, I noticed postings about a symbol/flag that represents that you are an abdl or whatnot... I was jut wondering what other people think about this... this is my opinion... to see one of the posts that I read it is on these three sites:

www.wetset.com

www.aby.com

www.crinklebutt.com

I think it is a good idea to make te community aware that are fetish exists and that "normal" people are apart of it as well as some people who , well are different, but it's the same as with anything. There are people of all kinds into all different things. Anyway, my point is, that why do we need another way to differentiate ourselves in the community? We are certainly not the same as gay/lesbian people, nor are we like a race, culture, creed, religion or anythin of that nature, we are simply group. If you look at every single person you have ever met in this fetish, you find every single person to be different, even within the fetish and nothing exactly similiar. With religion, race, creed, handicapped etc., you find at least one binding thread that makes them alike in some way. Although I agree with informing the community that we exist and that we are like anyone one else and like any other fetish in the sense that we have other interests, dreams, fears and hobbies outside of the fetish, that what we do within the fetish is neither wrong, nor of anything that is a threatto anyone in the community. I guess in short, I do not agree with the alienation of the group , by using a flag or symbol to indicate that we of are any varience, especially if it is a sexual difference (yes, it is sexual , even if it is not sexual in an adult sense, but sexual in more of a developmental sense), but just part of the community in general and having a particular way we behave within the fetish. As much as we would like to expose people to this fetish and make it more of an accepted practice, it will never happen because there are several moral and ethical reasons this should stay within some limits of being behind closed doors. Put it this way.. would you want children to see this? Would you want to take this to church with you? Would you be able to look everyone in the face that is involved in your life and tell them all about it, every "gory" detail? Unfortunately, we must strive in someway to keep this private and behind closed doors. In no way do I support this flag or symbol, because if anything, it just signifies that we are "different" and I don't think that's what is intended.

[Morv]

I think the general idea of a flag doesn't really mean much of anything in the way that AB/DLs want it to mean something.

A flag is supposed to be a symbol, a rallying point, something that when seen identifies people with a similar cause. It is something flown with pride.

I just don't see that with AB/DL flags. I'm sorry, but AB/DLs will NEVER be mainstream. I mean, compared to gays and lesbians, we make up even more of a fraction of the population.

Take the gay/lesbian population. They have something to fight for -- they do not have the same rights in their lifestyles that heterosexuals have.

AB/DLs do not have a similar problem. Though people may consider us strange, weird, freaks, or whatever, there's no government denying us anything because of it.

I mean, we may be made fun of and misunderstood, but we're not exactly being persecuted or legally discriminated against.

Perhaps the only thing I can see a flag being any good at doing is being a representation of what we are so people can quit damned arguinig about whether they are infantilist, adult babies, diaper lovers, or whether it is a hobby, lifestyle, fetish, clothing choice, etc. But, then again, I've already seen so many different flags we can't even agree on that. There's never gonna be an "established" AB/DL flag because there is no official group. We don't have a government or an "official" organization.

And that's what Morv has to say about that.

[abdljoey]

As expressed, I totally agree. But I think both of you may have missed one of the key points of an ABDL symbol. Some have spoken of the symbol as a kind of identification - mainly for other ABDLs to recognize them. Not a rallying point, but a way of picking out a fellow enthusiast without mistake.

I'm going to use an analogy (fearfully) that I hope helps- not so much a flag, like the Christian flag, more like a point of contact, like the secret sign of the fish (originally).

I think thats how a lot of ABDL people see its purpose.

[PeeHD]

As expressed, I totally agree.

[DollyDiaper]

I agree - if this was to be of any interest to me, it should be a symbol that didn't provide any information about the lifestyle to "non initiated" (but with a cover story if someone asks), but that could be recognized by fellow abdls.

So, I go with Joey: a secret sign.

/doc

I don't go along with it. The whole concept of secret societies unnerves me. There's a lot of power in secrets.

This is just my gut reaction in this particular instance, so I haven't had time to think it through and consider how or if the ABDL community could or would abuse this power.

However, I've studied and observed the way in which secret societies in general and the Freemasons in particular operate throughout the world and also on a more parochial level. Our judicial system and police force is heavily populated with Freemasons, which I (along with many others) find quite disturbing.

A secret ABDL flag/badge immediately prompted me to think of the Freemasons' secret handshake. As I said, I'm not sure if this has any dubious power implications but it makes me feel uneasy. This could, of course be a totally unfounded and irrational fear.

Dolly

[Morv]

Make it a secret with a cover story and it will simply become a piece of trivia, "Hey, Jed, you know what that symbol on that there van really means? You're gonna love this!"

In a time saturated with high speed information and round the world instantaneous communication, it is hard to keep a secret for long.

[superdiaperbaby]

Ok. here is what I think. There are not "several moral and ethical reasons why this should stay within some limits of being behind closed doors." There is nothing immoral and unethical about wearing diapers at all. Nothing at all. What, because we go potty in them? That is not immoral or unethical. If so babies are immoral and unethical. Because we get off in diapers? If getting off in a diaper is immoral and unethical then I am a criminal. I do agree that getting off in any way should be behind closed doors. But that is where the separation lies and not at diapers. Do I want children to see a grown man in a diaper? Hmm, it shouldn't matter. What, are they supposed to be scarred from seeing it? Try watching any movie nowadays. The violence and sex children are already exposed to is way more disturbing than seeing a man in a diaper. How about seeing 2 guys kissing or seeing crossdressers? Will that scar children? Seeing is different from doing. Just because we are different does not mean we are wrong. Seeing leads to acceptance. The more people see us, the more they will have to accept us, or at minimum put up with us, just because we exist. I have worn diapers at church many times and no one noticed. If they did. they did not say anything. It is reasonable to assume that people who wear diapers go potty in them. That is not gory. It is just fact.

We ARE different from the world. We have a lifestyle that is hidden and makes us feel ashamed at points in our lives. A man who lives in fear and shame hides themselves and can never be truly happy in the world. It is wrong for us to live in fear and shame. We have an inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness and it is our perceptions of society that prevent us from doing so. The problem is that you feel guilty for your behaviour and that is guilt that is all in your mind. Most ABs at some time feel guilty. Simply because we learned to way back when we were first potty trained. I have looked everyone important in my life in the face and told them every gory detail. It is not bad. It is fear that holds us back. This fear holds us to shame. We must get past this fear personally before we can ever expect anyone else to understand.

I do support this flag and not just for being a flag but for what it represents. The man who holds this flag high has to answer the question - "What does this flag stand for?" to anyone who asks. And that man who answers this question is a brave man. When we can all hold the flag high is when we will truly be free. I am not talking about freedom as in "wearing in public" I am talking about personal freedom to be a man with nothing to hide. A man with nothing to hide is a man with nothing to worry about. That is the man I want to become.

Hugs,

Baby Bri

[PeeHD]

I don't go along with it. The whole concept of secret societies unnerves me. There's a lot of power in secrets.

hehe.. well, I do think that the world would be a better place if sissies, adult babies, diaper lovers, mommies and daddies were the true rulers of the planet! Imagine the tolerance, understanding and kindness that would influence the politics and what a lovely sight it would be when top meetings were held around the world.

No, seriously speaking, I don't think the fact that certain groups of people indulge in secret clubbing is the real key to power. In my eyes, there is an entirely different property that is required if you desire power, and it's not a very big secret: a sausage between your legs.

The purpose of having a secret abdl sign, apart from us becoming diapered rulers of the world of course, is just that most of us don't want to display our interest to the un-initiated world. Actually we are in fact already a fairly secret society since most outsiders are ignorant about this interest in the first place, so I don't think it would do much of a difference.

However, considering the consequences of such a sign, I don't think it's very realistic that it would happen. The problem can be easily seen when looking at online communities: if intrusive PM:ing is a problem here, what wouldn't it be in RL with strangers approaching you about this.

So, in other words, I don't think it will happen, but if I knew that people wouldn't approach me if I displayed such a sign, then I would find it interesting to see other people around me sharing this interest.

/doc

[PeeHD]

Superdiaperbaby, I both agree and disagree.. in one way you are of course right - if there were no other people with opinions about this lifestyle, then there would be no problem to display this interest to the world around us.

On the other hand, I have never had a problem with this interest, never had feelings of shame, and it has never been a very big part of my life. Still, I prefer to keep it to myself, and I have never had any special desire to talk about this to other people (I have talked to people about it, but by coinsidence rather than by desire to talk about it). The thing is that I like to keep parts of my life private, and I want people around me to do the same.

This means that I'm simply not interested to tell the world about certain things about myself, be it diapers or what songs I sing in the shower, so an abdl flag that is publicly recognized would still not be of any interest to me.

/doc

[Morv]

superdiaperbaby, two things.

First,

That is not immoral or unethical. If so babies are immoral and unethical. Because we get off in diapers? If getting off in a diaper is immoral and unethical then I am a criminal.

Your logic here is dangerously flawed. Things are illegal because people in governments make laws against them. Whether there should be a connection between morality and law is a personal opinion, not a fact. Just because something is immoral or unethical does not mean it is illegal, and likewise, just because something is illegal does not mean it is immoral or unethical.

In fact the whole concept of making things illegal based on morality, in my opinion, is wrong. Most of our laws are based on the harm priciple -- if you cause harm to another, you have done them wrong (with certain conditions being met for mens rea and mea culpa). A smaller set are based on the offense principle -- that being offensive in some way, even if it does not cause apparent physical harm, is also illegal. Then there's paternalism, which is are laws that do not involve doing anyone wrong, but rather are designed to stop you from hurting yourself.

Beyond that is moralism, which your suggestion treads on to. These are laws that make it illegal to do things that neither wrong someone nor hurt someone (including one's self), but rather things that the makers of the laws consider to be "immoral." These include laws that do things like making homosexuality, or oral sex, or a given religion illegal.

No, just because something is immoral does not mean it is illegal, nor should it -- too many people disagree about what "immoral" is.

-- end rant on legal philosophy --

As to shame, hiding and acceptance, sure, more exposure means more acceptance. But you know what, unless you live in Australia or work in a zoo (and hell, even then), a duck billed platypus just looks funny. Why? Because unless you live in an area where there are a lot of them, you just don't see them very often. If every AB or DL proudly explained to everyone what they did and why... it would probably be enough exposure to make a whole lot of people really get a kick out of it.

What's my point? There's not enough of us to gain enough general exposure to gain full acceptance. You don't have to be ashamed or scared to not let other people know -- it can stem from being smart enough to know they don't care, and probably everyone would be happier if fewer people did know.

[Nik2]

I think one of the most under appreciated and over looked causes which have helped to make the AB/DL communities look good to the general public are the web sites with all the hot female models.

Think about it. If the internet was filled with only a bunch of guy web sites it would make us look perverted but because we have some of these great female web sites with top notch models such as DiaperSchool.com: It kind of takes the attention away from the male object and projects the idea that AB/DL life styles are "Not" just a bunch of perverted men.

Don't get so hung up on this Diaper Flag Symble thing, It acctualy looks cool and like anything else you can't control what people will think of something, so why be so afraid of it. If anything someone has a good idea to make a few extra bucks is what I see there.

The symbol is great and all but if people want to convey a more positive idea about the this diaper world to the pub, we need more girl diaper sites: but the models must be hot to convey the idea of professionalism. I know thats dosen't make sence but it will if you think about it.

Girl models look better then baby models to the public thats for sure.

I think diapers are more a guy thing so I like the idea of a cute male in a diaper who is controled by a hot femle. No I'm not gay nor do I have anything against gay men. If a gay guy likes my pictures I'm flatered!

So again I like when guys are forced to ware diapers where is the girls is more in power because she doses not have to.

But at the same token having hot female models in diapers helps the image of the diaper community by breaking up the focus that men are the only ones into diapers.

Women are usually looked at as more innocent or good by humen nature: not that they are but.

by having hot diaper female models it really helps the image of the community over all by giving it an attractive makeover to the average male who is not into this kind of things.

[Morv]

That is probably the most interesting justification for the objectification of women I've ever read.

But, if what you're pulling for is more attractive women in diapers, I do find it hard to argue.

I think what the end result is is that diaper sites appear more like mainstream porn sites... which, I guess isn't all bad.

[Pipsqueak]

If the internet was filled with only a bunch of guy web sites it would make us look perverted but because we have some of these great female web sites with top notch models such as DiaperSchool.com: It kind of takes the attention away from the male object and projects the idea that AB/DL life styles are "Not" just a bunch of perverted men.

And how does this fail to make men look like perverts?

[PeeHD]

That is probably the most interesting justification for the objectification of women I've ever read.

LOL!

Couldn't have said it better myself. And the justification does not in in any way succeed. It never will.

/doc

[DollyDiaper]

QUOTE("Nik2")

If the internet was filled with only a bunch of guy web sites it would make us look perverted but because we have some of these great female web sites with top notch models such as DiaperSchool.com: It kind of takes the attention away from the male object and projects the idea that AB/DL life styles are "Not" just a bunch of perverted men.

It's heartening to hear that we women have our uses outside the kitchen and bedroom.

D <_ lly>

[wetvinyl]

I'm new here, so excuse me if I don't get it (but I've read the whole discussion):

WHAT ab/dl "flag"??? Never seen it, and don't see the need for one on a website. If a vendor is ab/dl friendly, they usually say so, right up front.

As far as a "real world" symbol, I've worn a diaper pin on my lapel or shirt when going to a social event where it may cause valid curiosity (a place where other potential Mommies or fem ab/dl's may be hanging out).

Otherwise-- who fuckin cares? I'm not a gay person fighting for equal rights by putting a rainbow on the back of my Saab. This is a FETISH, folks-- not a unjustly discriminated-against sexual orientation struggling under the jackboot of mainstream society! Sites like this-- and the 'net at large-- give the ab/dl community all the contacts, information, and validation it needs. Who needs a flag??

wv

[Morv]

Amen brother!