Electro Stim Erruption

[Diapered Jason]

Jason, such a benchtop power supply is *NOT* safe...400mA is around the amount needed to cause the heart to fibrillate....and 36V is the least recorded electrocution voltage through *intact* skin. Have you ever thought about why medical power supplies have such strict leakage specifications? Also, do me a favor and connect that supply to two copper leads you don't mind ruining, stick them in a potato, and turn the supply on. A day or so later, tell me what has happened to the potato and your wires, and whether you would be poisoned if you ate it.

Hold on just a sec. I am completely aware of what is safe. The power supply I have is a low output power supply. It does not even compare to the 120V, 3 phase, power output of a wall socket.

First thing is the resistance of a potato is no where near the load of our bodies combined with the contacts I use (For sure, if you eat that potato, you will get a good does of copper oxide due to the corrosion of one of the electrodes). Therefore, the current reaches about 10 mA, 30 mA at the most during my play (Even at maximum voltage/current setting, hurts though). If you allow skin contact to occur with the metal electrode, the current can reach 50 mA. The great thing about the variable power supply I have is it displays both the voltage and current, so it is easy to watch.

The second thing is a violet wand creates a completely different output, namely high voltage, high frequency, and low current. I think it is crazy to reverse engineer a violet wand. Besides, it requires special parts like glass tubes filled with a noble gas that are very hard to get with out getting a violet wand in the first place. What I am after is low voltage, low frequency, and low current.

Last thing is, I already have a book on circuit design. Converting AC to DC is simple compared to converting DC to AC. Switching power supply design is a very complicated subject. Much more complicated than normal circuit design. I will probably forgo learning that if I can find a variable AC power supply with low output.

Still though, thank you Dill_Pickle. I find everyone's input valuable.

Very Important Note: I am still not encouraging anybody to do this unless they have at least an elementary understanding of electrical circuits.

[glycerine]

Whatever you do, you need a very, very, VERY, good line isolation transformer along with a medical-grade ground fault breaker.

What we're talking about here isn't terribly complicated.

110V -> 6V isolation transformer

Full-wave rectifier and filters to convert to DC.

Current limiting circuit to ??? mA.

An handful of oscillator circuits to make:

• sawtooth
• square
• sine

Mixer to blend all of the above waves.

You don't have to make the waveforms particularly "clean". This isn't like you're going to be using this as a clock circuit in a computer...you're just hooking it up to your body to give yourself a nice buzz. The basic design criteria is to put in a fail safe that absolutely limits the top voltage and current.

The power supply is a Bad Idea. Any device that CAN be adjusted to produce a fatal voltage/current combination can be considered vulnerable to actually doing that. Just because you can monitor the thing on a meter doesn't mean that it can fail. By the time you say "Oh My...it's cranking out 1A instead of 1mA." you're already dead.

[Diapered Jason]

The power supply is a Bad Idea. Any device that CAN be adjusted to produce a fatal voltage/current combination can be considered vulnerable to actually doing that. Just because you can monitor the thing on a meter doesn't mean that it can fail. By the time you say "Oh My...it's cranking out 1A instead of 1mA." you're already dead.

My power supply cannot produce anything fatal due to the huge resistance. What is occurring is the creation of an electrochemical cell with your body in the middle. Current exists due to a drift of ions and oxidation of the cathode. There is a large resistance so the current is always at a safe level even at maximum setting. The only way my power supply can harm you is if you allow direct skin contact to occur at a 'relatively' high setting resulting in nothing more than a light burn.

Guys, I have already done this a hundred times.

Oh well. If you don't like the idea, don't try it. If you like the idea, but have no knowledge of electrical circuits, don't try it.

[Diapered Jason]

On another subject, this whole thread got me thinking about this one video on Tosh.0. The stupid man in question wrapped aluminum foil around his penis creating two antennas with the aluminum foil. He then proceeded to insert the two antennas into a wall socket. You can guess what happened next. rofl

You can watch it here

[glycerine]

...

Guys, I have already done this a hundred times.

Oh well. If you don't like the idea, don't try it. If you like the idea, but have no knowledge of electrical circuits, don't try it.

It's that 100 + 1 time that always bites you!

And, yes, I do have knowledge of electrical circuits. I built my first Heathkit oscilloscope in 1964 when I was 14. You don't need to build a "switching power supply"...that's an over-design for the intended application.

BTW... a wall socket is NOT "three phase". Are you sure you understand electronics?

For those so inclined...

Patent Document

and

This interesting article

[Diapered Jason]

You are right, normally a wall socket is one phase. I was thinking about the power distribution network (I got mixed up, because I have seen wall outlets with 3 phase).

Also, I am not an electrical engineer, but I am capable of circuit design.

When I said "Oh well. If you don't like the idea, don't try it. If you like the idea, but have no knowledge of electrical circuits, don't try it," I was not referring to anyone specifically, my apologies.

My variable power supply is not capable of reaching a life threatening level of current. The current output of a TENS unit is similar to my power supply; however, my power supply is DC and has lower voltage. Therefore, I think it is not as pleasurable. From the descriptions I have read, a DC current is no where near as pleasurable as AC current. I am finding in the end, I may have to buy a TENS unit regardless to achieve what I want without building one. I do not have the necessary expertise to create that kind of device. It would take a long time for me to figure that out. Switching DC to AC is over my head, so I am not going to try that either.

As for E-stim in general, we take a risk even in the use of a violet wand or TENS unit. It is just like any other play, one step at a time. Take two steps at once and you may hurt yourself.

Thanks for the articles though. This will likely be my last post in this topic.

[Dill_Pickle]

You are right, normally a wall socket is one phase. I was thinking about the power distribution network (I got mixed up, because I have seen wall outlets with 3 phase).

Also, I am not an electrical engineer, but I am capable of circuit design.

My variable power supply is not capable of reaching a life threatening level of current. <snip> I am finding in the end, I may have to buy a TENS unit regardless to achieve what I want without building one. I do not have the necessary expertise to create that kind of device. It would take a long time for me to figure that out. Switching DC to AC is over my head, so I am not going to try that either.

<snip>

I *am* an electrical engineer....this week, my job involves finding out whether a heatsink is adequate for a collection of transistors carrying around 500A each. Making AC out of DC is quite simple, and that patent gives an excellent recipe for the right kind of AC. A dual 555 timer could generate the waveforms discussed in the patent, at the right power levels, although I'd probably use a microprocessor in a practical design, for the additional flexibility in the waveforms.

If you don't have the necessary expertise to create the devices we are talking about, or even simple DC to AC conversion, I would not call you *capable* of circuit design, and certainly not capable of the sort of safety analysis that you need to do to ensure that power supply you are using is anywhere near safe. In fact, you have told us it can produce an ampere...2-1/2 times a level that might reasonably be expected to be fatal. If it's the kind I think it is (like the one on my workbench), one slip is all it will take to make it do so, and you are already mixed up about wall power. What other topics vital to your electrical safety are you mixed up about?

Also, although a vacuum tube might be involved in a standard violet wand, I have my doubts as to it being absolutely necessary to the process...if you aren't trying to generate kilowatts of clean RF or microwaves, or do something really special (like the visual displays from those plasma balls they sell at Radio Shack) you don't need a vacuum tube anymore. I also can't believe you can't find plans for a violet wand on the internet; that would be sufficient for a skilled engineer to reverse engineer one.

Beware, YOU are a fatal accident waiting to happen. YOU are actively ignorant of expert advice and uneducated. Of such people, come DARWIN AWARD nominations.

[Diapered Jason]

Please don't insult my intelligence. This conversation went from defending my idea to defending myself. That was completely uncalled for.

As I indicated in my last post, which it seems you only read half of, I have decided to get a TENS unit once I have the money. I have learned my DC power supply does not produce as pleasurable of an output as a device designed for such purposes. So if you are looking to deter people from doing what I tried, you need only tell them that it does not work anyway. I apologize as I have not been able to effectively communicate my message. 0-30V/0-1A indicates the maximum power output and the cutoff points. For example, if you short the power supply, the current will greatly exceed 1A, thereby shutting off the device. For my situation, the resistance of the system is so high 30V is reached when the current reaches about 0.05A. This combination occurs at the cutoff point of 30V (i.e. both the current and voltage knobs are turned all the way to the right). That voltage level is usually too painful though.

I am definitely capable of learning the necessary knowledge to design the circuit I am looking for, but I worry myself that if I went down that route, something may go wrong. That is why I am saying it is over my head, but at least I am willing to admit it.

Now, back off Dill_Pickle. I am warning you.

[Repaid1]

As a Electronic Engineer myself, I have to agree somewhat with Dill. The thing I don't get is how you get anything stim from a DC source. The figures you give for the power supply actually make no sense. A power supply rated at 0-30vdc and 0-1A can at any level supply said voltage and amperage at the given dial setting so if you set the voltage to 1 volt and turned the amp to 1 amp your power supply would indeed supply that output in a full short.

Your statement: "My power supply cannot produce anything fatal due to the huge resistance." IS a false one Your power supply has more than enough power to drop you out! The only resistance that is relative in the circuit is that being provided by your body in opposition to the flow of current.

"The current output of a TENS unit is similar to my power supply; however, my power supply is DC and has lower voltage." False again, they are no where even close, and the output of my T.E.N.S. is 30v peak to peak. So the voltage is relatively close, however the current and frequency are not comparable.

That being said, If at any time for any reason a lesion (scrape) occurred while you where experimenting. A amp current as low as 10 microamp can cause defib. Like you said I think it's best you go with a T.E.N.S. The frequency and waveform is what I think your after and that's how they work. D.C. Voltage is dangerous being described as you are trying to use it. Okay now go shock your self and have fun.

[glycerine]

Geez... I start a note string about getting myself off and where does it go!

555 timer. That actually popped through my head when I was thinking about this. I wonder where I've hidden my old discrete-component books from the 60's. My Dad was a EE with Bell Labs for nearly 50 years (he started before WWII). Trust me, he taught me from a very early age that Electricity Can Kill and that 200 mfd power supply capacitors that are fully charged look EXACTLY like 200 mfd capacitors that are discharged.

That little unit I reference back in the base note cost around 10 bucks. You'd be hard pressed to beat that. It isn't a TENS unit, but it DOES provide a great deal of, ummm, stimulation.

[Diapered Jason]

I think you guys are right. I should have taken more safety precautions regardless of what I thought the output would be. I should have used some sort of residual current device, similar to a ground fault circuit interrupter, but instead detecting the current on the live wire rather then the neutral wire. I do not know why I did not think of that before. It does not matter though, I am no longer using that power supply for that purpose.

[Dill_Pickle]

Please don't insult my intelligence. This conversation went from defending my idea to defending myself. That was completely uncalled for.

As I indicated in my last post, which it seems you only read half of, I have decided to get a TENS unit once I have the money. I have learned my DC power supply does not produce as pleasurable of an output as a device designed for such purposes. So if you are looking to deter people from doing what I tried, you need only tell them that it does not work anyway. I apologize as I have not been able to effectively communicate my message. 0-30V/0-1A indicates the maximum power output and the cutoff points. For example, if you short the power supply, the current will greatly exceed 1A, thereby shutting off the device. For my situation, the resistance of the system is so high 30V is reached when the current reaches about 0.05A. This combination occurs at the cutoff point of 30V (i.e. both the current and voltage knobs are turned all the way to the right). That voltage level is usually too painful though.

I am definitely capable of learning the necessary knowledge to design the circuit I am looking for, but I worry myself that if I went down that route, something may go wrong. That is why I am saying it is over my head, but at least I am willing to admit it.

Now, back off Dill_Pickle. I am warning you.

JasonP:

This is the first or second time in approximately a decade I have come down on anyone on a forum this hard. Consider the significance carefully.

You might be smart enough to design circuits...but you certainly need to educate yourself first, don't fool yourself. And I just got a finer point (don't neglect armature resistance) re-taught to me in the school of hard knocks this week, but I am more expert than anyone I know. There's a lot more to it than getting the DC operating point correct.

If you want to get an idea, lets see if you can give me all of the limitations on a 1 Megohm, 1/4 W resistor that you can purchase in your local Radio Shack. The full answers will send you a decent way towards being able to design good circuits.

[Repaid1]

If you want to get an idea, lets see if you can give me all of the limitations on a 1 Megohm, 1/4 W resistor that you can purchase in your local Radio Shack. The full answers will send you a decent way towards being able to design good circuits.

Trick question, You didn't tell us if it was precision or if not what color the tolerance band is.

[Diapered Jason]

JasonP:

This is the first or second time in approximately a decade I have come down on anyone on a forum this hard. Consider the significance carefully.

You might be smart enough to design circuits...but you certainly need to educate yourself first, don't fool yourself. And I just got a finer point (don't neglect armature resistance) re-taught to me in the school of hard knocks this week, but I am more expert than anyone I know. There's a lot more to it than getting the DC operating point correct.

If you want to get an idea, lets see if you can give me all of the limitations on a 1 Megohm, 1/4 W resistor that you can purchase in your local Radio Shack. The full answers will send you a decent way towards being able to design good circuits.

There is a reason why I did not vote down your post, because you were right despite your aggressiveness. I am not here to make enemies. I realize I am sometimes overconfident in my knowledge.

As for you question, the theoretical voltage and current limitations of a 1 Megaohm, 1/4 W resistor are 500 V and 0.5 mA respectively. Of course, that is without knowing the tolerance so the resistor could be destroyed before reaching said limitations. Dielectric breakdown could be an issue to consider as well with that high of voltage. I think I know what you are getting at though. 1 Megaohm is about the resistance of a human with dry skin.

I found an interesting book on electrical stimulation called "Electrical Stimulation and Electropathology," that would definitely prove useful in this area. I have not been able to read it, but I took a good look at the table of contents and decided I wanted it.

[Dill_Pickle]

There is a reason why I did not vote down your post, because you were right despite your aggressiveness. I am not here to make enemies. I realize I am sometimes overconfident in my knowledge.

As for you question, the theoretical voltage and current limitations of a 1 Megaohm, 1/4 W resistor are 500 V and 0.5 mA respectively. Of course, that is without knowing the tolerance so the resistor could be destroyed before reaching said limitations. Dielectric breakdown could be an issue to consider as well with that high of voltage. I think I know what you are getting at though. 1 Megaohm is about the resistance of a human with dry skin.

I found an interesting book on electrical stimulation called "Electrical Stimulation and Electropathology," that would definitely prove useful in this area. I have not been able to read it, but I took a good look at the table of contents and decided I wanted it.

Sounds like you have found a good read....[worst whiny little kid tone you can think of] can I borrow it?

Back to the limitations of the resistor from Radio Shack...and 1 MegOhm was chosen for ease of calculation, you can get your digital meter to read around 15K if you squeeze the probe tips hard with your fingers.

What do you think the likely tolerance on the resistance actually is? And what do you think happens if you dissipate just a hair more than 1/4W in a 1/4W resistor? (I encourage you to actually get a similar resistor, and to get one around 1K, and measure the actual resistance and dissipate a hair more than 1/4W in it. You already have the adjustable power supply, and the meter is useful occasionally for household and automotive jobs; it's under $20 at "The shack".

[Diapered Jason]

What do you think the likely tolerance on the resistance actually is? And what do you think happens if you dissipate just a hair more than 1/4W in a 1/4W resistor? (I encourage you to actually get a similar resistor, and to get one around 1K, and measure the actual resistance and dissipate a hair more than 1/4W in it. You already have the adjustable power supply, and the meter is useful occasionally for household and automotive jobs; it's under $20 at "The shack".

Sigh, the resistors tolerance could be as high as + 20%. Obviously, if you exceed the power limitations of the resistor, you will heat it up possibly causing damage.

I already have a digital multimeter as well. The resistance of the skin can vary.

[Dill_Pickle]

Sigh, the resistors tolerance could be as high as + 20%. Obviously, if you exceed the power limitations of the resistor, you will heat it up possibly causing damage.

I already have a digital multimeter as well. The resistance of the skin can vary.

I didn't know you could still buy 20% resistors....the ones at Radio Shack are usually the 5% types......

Question: what exactly is the meaning of "1/4 watt" on a resistor?

[Diapered Jason]

I didn't know you could still buy 20% resistors....the ones at Radio Shack are usually the 5% types......

Question: what exactly is the meaning of "1/4 watt" on a resistor?

1/4 watt is the maximum power dissipation of the resistor. Resistors irreversibly transform electrical power into heat.

So what is your point?

[Dill_Pickle]

1/4 watt is the maximum power dissipation of the resistor. Resistors irreversibly transform electrical power into heat.

So what is your point?

Well, let's work on your model of that resistor a bit...why would dissipating, say, 1/2W in a 1/4W resistor damage it, and how?

Ohh, and sorry it has taken me so long to get back...been working on counting chess positions with three pieces on the board on another forum.

[BabyGizmo]

this device sounds pleasurable! im gonna have to get me one of them.

[abrichiebc]

Estim and diapers are hot!