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Wow.. My Conservative College Did Something Good!


Guest MunchKitten

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I guess it's time I stepped into this thread. I'm going to answer your questions because I don't think you were trying to be a douche and it's always been my policy to answer anyone's questions truthfully as long as they were asked to gain knowledge and understanding. The first thing you might try to understand is that this is a very difficult journey that Munchkitten has embarked on and in her shoes, you might be a tad bit defensive yourself.

To the question of why she should get special privileges there's two main reasons. Both reasons revolve around the difficulty of making the transition from a male to a female. Even if she were dressing as a woman full time she won't likely "pass" as a woman because she hasn't had the time necessary for hormone replacement therapy to redistribute her body fat to give her a more feminine shape and facial contours. If she isn't passable she will have issues in a women's rest room because she'll be taken as a male in a dress or a drag queen both of which most women find demeaning. He would most likely receive some form of harassment for using a mens room if he were presenting as a woman but obviously a man. Would a genetic woman be harassed for using the mens room? Not on your life. Using a single rest room at this point is preferable from the standpoint of the public.

The second reason is that in reality she is suffering from a disability. None of us asked to be transgendered any more than someone else asked for a club foot or cancer. It's simply the hand we were dealt at birth and we have to play it the best we can. The deck is stacked against us as it is right now. We are not protected from discrimination in jobs and housing like other disabilities. Our medical treatment isn't covered by most insurance plans because they list the treatment as "experimental" which is usually excluded from most policies. I'm not asking for sympathy here, I just want you to better understand the hardships that are faced by Munchkitten. The good news is that her disability is temporary. Once she is on hormone replacement therapy for a while and she becomes more comfortable with her female self she will want to start using the women's room. At that point it shouldn't be an issue with other women either because she will be perceived as a woman and belong there.

I hope this helps you to understand where she is coming from and where she is going. If you have any specific questions feel free to IM me.

Hugs,

Freta

Actually Freta, it makes solid sense. I do have to state that the harassment is something that shouldn't be allowed to happen regardless. I understand the emotional trauma aspect and the temporary situation.

I think it would be infinitely better to have unisex bathrooms in every building on campus, but alas it won't happen. Financial constraits are too high with most colleges.

Again, I appreciate the fact you don't think I'm being a douche here. I got some great answers that expanded my understanding of the situation. And I prefer to be one of those people who says they are "understanding" by ACTUALLY understanding of a situation. I'd say tolerant, but that is a terrible word because it sends the wrong connotation. It means that you don't like it but you allow it. And I'm not "tolerant" in this situation, because I am not opposed to transgendered issues in the least.

I can understand the hard hurdle to overcome in terms of "Choice vs. Born that Way" debates that people will have. And if people feel it's a choice then they'll be against special priveldges of any kind.

Thanks for taking the time to reply civilly to my inquiry.

Warm Regards,

Brutal

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  • 3 weeks later...

I guess it's time I stepped into this thread. I'm going to answer your questions because I don't think you were trying to be a douche and it's always been my policy to answer anyone's questions truthfully as long as they were asked to gain knowledge and understanding. The first thing you might try to understand is that this is a very difficult journey that Munchkitten has embarked on and in her shoes, you might be a tad bit defensive yourself.

To the question of why she should get special privileges there's two main reasons. Both reasons revolve around the difficulty of making the transition from a male to a female. Even if she were dressing as a woman full time she won't likely "pass" as a woman because she hasn't had the time necessary for hormone replacement therapy to redistribute her body fat to give her a more feminine shape and facial contours. If she isn't passable she will have issues in a women's rest room because she'll be taken as a male in a dress or a drag queen both of which most women find demeaning. He would most likely receive some form of harassment for using a mens room if he were presenting as a woman but obviously a man. Would a genetic woman be harassed for using the mens room? Not on your life. Using a single rest room at this point is preferable from the standpoint of the public.

The second reason is that in reality she is suffering from a disability. None of us asked to be transgendered any more than someone else asked for a club foot or cancer. It's simply the hand we were dealt at birth and we have to play it the best we can. The deck is stacked against us as it is right now. We are not protected from discrimination in jobs and housing like other disabilities. Our medical treatment isn't covered by most insurance plans because they list the treatment as "experimental" which is usually excluded from most policies. I'm not asking for sympathy here, I just want you to better understand the hardships that are faced by Munchkitten. The good news is that her disability is temporary. Once she is on hormone replacement therapy for a while and she becomes more comfortable with her female self she will want to start using the women's room. At that point it shouldn't be an issue with other women either because she will be perceived as a woman and belong there.

I hope this helps you to understand where she is coming from and where she is going. If you have any specific questions feel free to IM me.

Hugs,

Freta

what she has said here is a good example of the things that happen in real life... but what gets me is that we give you so many real examples but you don't want to see them as being fact... some times it will happen.. and none of us not even normal men and women want to have a problem happen when they are in the bathroom.... brutal i applaud you for trying to be a good person, and seting aside your own opinion for a little to see the other side of things...

as for the whole unisex bathroom thing.. think of it like this.. they may be getting a special privilege because that isn't the case atm, meaning they don't have them on campus, but out in the world there are so many bigots, raciest, sexist and so many other words. being as i am a tg person my self i don't want to be treated special, well not when it comes to that part of it *giggles* but my point is. out there were we have no protection right now. going in to a men's bathroom could get us killed. if we are in the wrong place.. and if we go in to the girls bathroom. and we don't look like a girl we can get arrested. it is as simple as trying to keep ourselves safe. but also as complex as trying to make ourselves feel like we are human and not some kind of animal that doesn't get any kind of rights.

some of you are probably thinking i am going over bored and over simplifying it. well i might be. but i am tired of people saying we cant be a girl because of the way we look. or being a boy for the same reason. i have fought tooth and nail, to keep my sanity and not lose my self to all the societal norms. i in fact hid behind a mask, that all to many of us tg's and many bie's gay's and lesbian's do, to be able to live a normal life for a wile... well all it turns out that it was doing was killing me inside slowly. and i broke down and came back to who i was i threw away that mask, and have started to accept who i am. but now that that part is done i want to be accepted for who i am by others. and that may never happen, but i still want to fight for that. all people in the world want to be accepted, no mater what they are. but for the lgbt community, that fight is just as hard as getting equal rights for women, and black and any other kind of fight for rights, if not harder, because of all the people who want to spout some kind of scripture that vaguely apples. religion has its place. some one on the forum said it already, that this isn't a choice. we didn't choose to feel like we are of the opposite gender. people have said god made us the way we are.... so why change it... well think about that statement. god made use who and what we are, problems included, so if we are made as we are for the tg's that means we are made to be tg's, so we should do something about it to be happy. we cant just be expected to be hated, feared, pushed down and away, and or to end it, just because we are in a body that god made for us to start off with. we are meant to evolve otherwise who could we have gotten this far.

sorry about my long post. but i have had lots of time to think about this, and little time to speak about it.

*hugs to all* lil jenny

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out there were we have no protection right now. going in to a men's bathroom could get us killed. if we are in the wrong place.. and if we go in to the girls bathroom. and we don't look like a girl we can get arrested. it is as simple as trying to keep ourselves safe.

I wonder, and I'm not being sarcastic but seriously wonder this. Do all TG's have a fear of being in the men’s bathroom and getting beat??? I mean, this seems to be kind of the sensuous that you all feel like you will be killed for entering a men's bathroom. It sounds pretty extreme to say that in my opinion. To me, it almost sounds as ridiculous as saying there's monster under the bed. Instead you're saying there are monster or men ready to just go ape and attack you in the bathroom. It seems to be a fear I've noticed in various post from TG's and they use this in their defense a lot on why they need their own bathrooms. Do you all really live in fear of this? I don't know what monsters you think or what type of people are in the bathroom but there the same people that pass you on the sidewalk, hall, work, school, wherever so I'm not sure if it's because it's in a room or what that the fear is there. I think the reality is, you have a very slim chance of ever encountering a situation like this, no different than anyone else. Now if you all start posting stories of how it all happened to you, first of all, I will not believe all of you, second, if you post stories about I heard it happened to someone, that is not credible either just because there are probably just as many stories out there of average Joes getting beat too. I've never personally heard of a single bathroom brawl ever by anyone, maybe a little harassing or poking fun at someone when I was younger say middle, and high school but not adults. If it was all over the papers and factual that it is a common occurrence that TG’s are beat in bathrooms more so than anyone, then I'd believe it's a problem and a recognized fear but I just don't see that.

I'm not trying to cause a thread fight here but just really find it extreme to say you will possibly get killed in a bathroom. Even if you did use your own bathroom say a unisex, who's to say someone couldn't follow you in there and beat you? It just doesn't make sense the statement of possibly being killed. Sure, we all could be I guess. You probably have the same chance at that happening to you as anyone else.

but also as complex as trying to make ourselves feel like we are human and not some kind of animal that doesn't get any kind of rights.

A TG has the same constitutional rights as anyone else that's an American resident. It sounds like you want everyone to have to cater to a groups feelings which to me almost sounds like you want more rights than the rest of us by getting a separate bathroom the rest of us can't use.

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I wonder, and I'm not being sarcastic but seriously wonder this. Do all TG's have a fear of being in the men’s bathroom and getting beat??? I mean, this seems to be kind of the sensuous that you all feel like you will be killed for entering a men's bathroom. It sounds pretty extreme to say that in my opinion. To me, it almost sounds as ridiculous as saying there's monster under the bed. Instead you're saying there are monster or men ready to just go ape and attack you in the bathroom. It seems to be a fear I've noticed in various post from TG's and they use this in their defense a lot on why they need their own bathrooms. Do you all really live in fear of this? I don't know what monsters you think or what type of people are in the bathroom but there the same people that pass you on the sidewalk, hall, work, school, wherever so I'm not sure if it's because it's in a room or what that the fear is there. I think the reality is, you have a very slim chance of ever encountering a situation like this, no different than anyone else. Now if you all start posting stories of how it all happened to you, first of all, I will not believe all of you, second, if you post stories about I heard it happened to someone, that is not credible either just because there are probably just as many stories out there of average Joes getting beat too. I've never personally heard of a single bathroom brawl ever by anyone, maybe a little harassing or poking fun at someone when I was younger say middle, and high school but not adults. If it was all over the papers and factual that it is a common occurrence that TG’s are beat in bathrooms more so than anyone, then I'd believe it's a problem and a recognized fear but I just don't see that.

I'm not trying to cause a thread fight here but just really find it extreme to say you will possibly get killed in a bathroom. Even if you did use your own bathroom say a unisex, who's to say someone couldn't follow you in there and beat you? It just doesn't make sense the statement of possibly being killed. Sure, we all could be I guess. You probably have the same chance at that happening to you as anyone else.

A TG has the same constitutional rights as anyone else that's an American resident. It sounds like you want everyone to have to cater to a groups feelings which to me almost sounds like you want more rights than the rest of us by getting a separate bathroom the rest of us can't use.

obviously you didn't get what i was saying. my first point was that in fact, most people won't care. but in the wrong areas they do and they will hurt people. and as for rights. we tgs don't have any protection from being fired. just because we are tg. or because we are trying to do our transition wail working. or wearing any clothing for women, and for that matter for going in to the girls bathroom at work, even if i dress as a girl, but i would still be in my transition and the girls in there could say i don't want her in there. which means. guess what. i would have to go to the boys bathroom... and they say the same thing... well what happens then. ware am i to go. and it dose happen, because a lot of society is afraid of any thing that goes agents what they have been brought up to believe.

when you say " Now if you all start posting stories of how it all happened to you, first of all, I will not believe all of you, second, if you post stories about I heard it happened to someone, that is not credible either just because there are probably just as many stories out there of average Joes getting beat too." what dose that leave us... no way of proving to some one that it happens. because you wont believe it even if we have the prof right in front of us. the extremes don't always happen, but they do happen. as for all of us out there that have started the process. we don't want it to end to soon because of something bad. we want it to go smoothly and as fast as possible so we can be happy and feel like we are normal people. but with so many people out there, they don't want us to be able to be that.

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oh ps. the thing is that we aren't trying to get a separate bathroom. and or special privileges. we are only trying to get a safe place that we can be ourselves. if we cant go in to the girls bathrooms or boys for that matter. because the boys or girls in there don't want us in there and that happens all to often. same can happen all over the place. if a employer says i don't want him because he is a tg then guess what we cant do any thing about it. as per normal.. but now say we are hired and they only find out after the fact that we are tg. well they can fire us because they them selves have a problem with it.. but not the rest of the company. now any of the people in the company say they have a problem with us dressing as a girl wail at work during our transition, they can fire us to there too. that isn't the same rights as every one else.

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Very interesting!

The university and, more specifically, the college that I graduated from had ALL gender neutral bathrooms. It was quite nice. No special treatment, really, other than the recognition that all of the bathrooms were like that.

The exceptions were thus:

1: Cafeterias

2: The Admin building

3: Areas which had frequent visitor traffic.

It's interesting inasmuch as it was flipped. Transfolk had free reign on campus (and still do).

The arguments preceding given, I do agree with Drew on one point. I like gender neutral bathrooms, personally, but they should not be something for which there should be given a key or anything like that. They should be open to any student who would choose to use them and it should be thus without having to out yourself to the administration to get permission. I shouldn't have to fill out a form saying that I'm transgender just to be able to use a "private bathroom" (which is the term that I personally prefer, because privacy is the real effect here).

But that's just my opinion, as somebody on perhaps a different part of the TG activist spectrum.

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Very interesting!

The university and, more specifically, the college that I graduated from had ALL gender neutral bathrooms. It was quite nice. No special treatment, really, other than the recognition that all of the bathrooms were like that.

The exceptions were thus:

1: Cafeterias

2: The Admin building

3: Areas which had frequent visitor traffic.

It's interesting inasmuch as it was flipped. Transfolk had free reign on campus (and still do).

The arguments preceding given, I do agree with Drew on one point. I like gender neutral bathrooms, personally, but they should not be something for which there should be given a key or anything like that. They should be open to any student who would choose to use them and it should be thus without having to out yourself to the administration to get permission. I shouldn't have to fill out a form saying that I'm transgender just to be able to use a "private bathroom" (which is the term that I personally prefer, because privacy is the real effect here).

But that's just my opinion, as somebody on perhaps a different part of the TG activist spectrum.

you are right. and all i have ever been trying to say is that we don't want special treatment we just want to be able to be safe. the only reason i would want a lock. or something for said bathroom is if i need some place to go to cry. or be alone. but even then that is a bit much.

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Guest MunchKitten

ours won't be locked. and the entire school knows about them, its been in our newspaper since it was announced. "Gender neutral bathrooms coming this spring, stay tuned for information!"

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ours won't be locked. and the entire school knows about them, its been in our newspaper since it was announced. "Gender neutral bathrooms coming this spring, stay tuned for information!"

My apologies, then. I misread or misattributed an earlier small statement, I think :)

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I wonder, and I'm not being sarcastic but seriously wonder this. Do all TG's have a fear of being in the men’s bathroom and getting beat??? I mean, this seems to be kind of the sensuous that you all feel like you will be killed for entering a men's bathroom. It sounds pretty extreme to say that in my opinion. To me, it almost sounds as ridiculous as saying there's monster under the bed. Instead you're saying there are monster or men ready to just go ape and attack you in the bathroom. It seems to be a fear I've noticed in various post from TG's and they use this in their defense a lot on why they need their own bathrooms. Do you all really live in fear of this? I don't know what monsters you think or what type of people are in the bathroom but there the same people that pass you on the sidewalk, hall, work, school, wherever so I'm not sure if it's because it's in a room or what that the fear is there. I think the reality is, you have a very slim chance of ever encountering a situation like this, no different than anyone else. Now if you all start posting stories of how it all happened to you, first of all, I will not believe all of you, second, if you post stories about I heard it happened to someone, that is not credible either just because there are probably just as many stories out there of average Joes getting beat too. I've never personally heard of a single bathroom brawl ever by anyone, maybe a little harassing or poking fun at someone when I was younger say middle, and high school but not adults. If it was all over the papers and factual that it is a common occurrence that TG’s are beat in bathrooms more so than anyone, then I'd believe it's a problem and a recognized fear but I just don't see that.

I'm not trying to cause a thread fight here but just really find it extreme to say you will possibly get killed in a bathroom. Even if you did use your own bathroom say a unisex, who's to say someone couldn't follow you in there and beat you? It just doesn't make sense the statement of possibly being killed. Sure, we all could be I guess. You probably have the same chance at that happening to you as anyone else.

A TG has the same constitutional rights as anyone else that's an American resident. It sounds like you want everyone to have to cater to a groups feelings which to me almost sounds like you want more rights than the rest of us by getting a separate bathroom the rest of us can't use.

Obviously you're having trouble believing that we face risks that the average person doesn't face but the sad fact is that we do. If you're truly open minded and just need to see some concrete evidence of this risk you can follow this link to the Transgender Day of Remembrance website. This link takes you to the page where the statistics are tabulated. It's just a couple clicks of your mouse. Each year in cities around the nation and the world groups of transgendered individuals set aside a day to remember those of us who have been killed for being who we are.

http://www.transgenderdor.org/?page_id=192

I keep seeing the same sentiment over and over in this thread. You just want to be special, you just want to be treated special. This is an indication of how little you actually understand us. Many of us have been boys acting like girls, girls acting like boys or boys and girls that are so androgynous that people have to stare at us because they're trying to make up their mind which we are. We've been "special" or in our case different from most everybody around us and we're sick of it.

Most people have milestones in their lives that they will always remember. A girls first communion dress, her prom dress, wedding dress, first pregnancy. We miss out on all of those things and I don't say this because we want or deserve sympathy for it but to illustrate a point. When we transition we make up for it with our own milestones which are as important or maybe even more so for us having had to wait so long. Those milestones are usually the day we get approved for hormone replacement therapy, the day we legally get our name changed, the day we get surgery. Being able to pass and just be us would be on that list except it is something that happens so gradually that there is no one day you could point to but it's extremely important to us. Having to use a gender neutral bathroom because you aren't passable enough to use the public bathroom is not something any of us aspire to. You can't understand the joy it brought me when I realized I could use the ladies room and no one did a double take. It was like I finally arrived, like I belonged and wasn't different any more. We don't really want to use gender neutral bathrooms, it's just something to make transition easier and safer for transgendered people and a little more comfortable for those not transgendered.

Hugs,

freta

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obviously you didn't get what i was saying. my first point was that in fact, most people won't care. but in the wrong areas they do and they will hurt people. and as for rights. we tgs don't have any protection from being fired. just because we are tg. or because we are trying to do our transition wail working. or wearing any clothing for women, and for that matter for going in to the girls bathroom at work, even if i dress as a girl, but i would still be in my transition and the girls in there could say i don't want her in there. which means. guess what. i would have to go to the boys bathroom... and they say the same thing... well what happens then. ware am i to go. and it dose happen, because a lot of society is afraid of any thing that goes agents what they have been brought up to believe.

The fact of the matter is, people hurt people no matter what. If you're a tg, it maybe for that, however if you're not, it will be for another reason. I could give a million example but I hope you get my point.

Tg's have just as much protection as anyone for getting fired. What protection do I have??? They could fire me for being staight, that's not against the law either sooooo I don't see how you feel different than anyone else here. I agree it's less likely to get fired over being straight but it could happen. If you think it's because you're a tg you're getting fired it's no different than an employeer telling someone, I don't like your hair or clothing choice so you're fired. That's who they are too and it's a companies parogotive to fire anyone at will. It's a poor practice to do it over issues like a tg and the company if this got out would probably be looked down upon. I use to hire and fire for a company I worked for. You want to know the BS things we had to do to get someone fired who was of a race other than white? We had to build a flippin' case on people of minority before we'd fire them showing how poor there work ethic was, write ups, theft, whatever it was before we could fire them because they always tend to pull out the race card and say this was the reason for termination. A white guy does one thing wrong, we fire him, no case, no questions asked because that card isn't in his deck. Also for hiring, a minority interviews, we almost had to hire them over someone more qualified in fear of them calling the county on us screaming discrimination. How BS is that???

As far as nobody wanting you in there bathroom, well that's just to dang bad for everyone else. You can use a bathroom and everyone else can just suck it up or leave if they don't like it. Again, the likely hood of people banding together in a public place over this are so slim it's probably undetectable. If you work somewhere, I could see it happening there as they would see you doing this on a daily basis and employees may band together. However, I'm sure your employeer is going to have to let you use one or the other so they may asign you to one as you would be a "special case". It's not that hard.

when you say " Now if you all start posting stories of how it all happened to you, first of all, I will not believe all of you, second, if you post stories about I heard it happened to someone, that is not credible either just because there are probably just as many stories out there of average Joes getting beat too." what dose that leave us... no way of proving to some one that it happens. because you wont believe it even if we have the prof right in front of us. the extremes don't always happen, but they do happen. as for all of us out there that have started the process. we don't want it to end to soon because of something bad. we want it to go smoothly and as fast as possible so we can be happy and feel like we are normal people. but with so many people out there, they don't want us to be able to be that.

My previous quote was simply to prevent a barage of stories saying "I heard of a tg who..." because like I said, it doesn't happen often enough for you to all have stories so I would've believed it if you all said I know of a dozen cases myself...or heard of a dozen tg's who... I'm sure there are a handful of stories out there of a tg getting beat but what I'm saying is just because there's some stories, doesn't necessarily mean it happens all the time, to the point wear a separate bathrooms needed for tg's. That's my point really. Plenty more non tg's get beat everyday too, not saying it's okay but what do we do for them???

Obviously you're having trouble believing that we face risks that the average person doesn't face but the sad fact is that we do. If you're truly open minded and just need to see some concrete evidence of this risk you can follow this link to the Transgender Day of Remembrance website. This link takes you to the page where the statistics are tabulated. It's just a couple clicks of your mouse. Each year in cities around the nation and the world groups of transgendered individuals set aside a day to remember those of us who have been killed for being who we are.

http://www.transgend...rg/?page_id=192

I went to the website. I'm not brushing off the fact, people get killed over this subject. However, as stated before, average joes get beat and killed everyday to for being who they are. The only difference, nobody I know of banded together to create a website for them. I get it, people died because of sexual preferance, being a tg. But so do non-tg's who get mixed up with the wrong lover or people or neighborhood. You won't change the world from having haters no matter how hard you try. Hate crimes happen everyday and the people that commit them aren't going to hear your voice nomatter how loud you are. Everyone seems to have an opinion on abortion, go influence an activist to change there mind. It likely won't happen because they are so one way. Change a hard core democrat to a republican, good luck.

I really wonder why there are so many things you all feel you are ripped off from in the world that doesn't already happen to a non tg person. We all have inner battles with ourselves to a degree, same as you. We all have battles with society nomatter your race, creed, religion or gender. What is it you want from everyone? I'm honestly curious.

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The fact of the matter is, people hurt people no matter what. If you're a tg, it maybe for that, however if you're not, it will be for another reason. I could give a million example but I hope you get my point.

Tg's have just as much protection as anyone for getting fired. What protection do I have??? They could fire me for being staight, that's not against the law either sooooo I don't see how you feel different than anyone else here. I agree it's less likely to get fired over being straight but it could happen. If you think it's because you're a tg you're getting fired it's no different than an employeer telling someone, I don't like your hair or clothing choice so you're fired. That's who they are too and it's a companies parogotive to fire anyone at will. It's a poor practice to do it over issues like a tg and the company if this got out would probably be looked down upon. I use to hire and fire for a company I worked for. You want to know the BS things we had to do to get someone fired who was of a race other than white? We had to build a flippin' case on people of minority before we'd fire them showing how poor there work ethic was, write ups, theft, whatever it was before we could fire them because they always tend to pull out the race card and say this was the reason for termination. A white guy does one thing wrong, we fire him, no case, no questions asked because that card isn't in his deck. Also for hiring, a minority interviews, we almost had to hire them over someone more qualified in fear of them calling the county on us screaming discrimination. How BS is that???

As far as nobody wanting you in there bathroom, well that's just to dang bad for everyone else. You can use a bathroom and everyone else can just suck it up or leave if they don't like it. Again, the likely hood of people banding together in a public place over this are so slim it's probably undetectable. If you work somewhere, I could see it happening there as they would see you doing this on a daily basis and employees may band together. However, I'm sure your employeer is going to have to let you use one or the other so they may asign you to one as you would be a "special case". It's not that hard.

My previous quote was simply to prevent a barage of stories saying "I heard of a tg who..." because like I said, it doesn't happen often enough for you to all have stories so I would've believed it if you all said I know of a dozen cases myself...or heard of a dozen tg's who... I'm sure there are a handful of stories out there of a tg getting beat but what I'm saying is just because there's some stories, doesn't necessarily mean it happens all the time, to the point wear a separate bathrooms needed for tg's. That's my point really. Plenty more non tg's get beat everyday too, not saying it's okay but what do we do for them???

I went to the website. I'm not brushing off the fact, people get killed over this subject. However, as stated before, average joes get beat and killed everyday to for being who they are. The only difference, nobody I know of banded together to create a website for them. I get it, people died because of sexual preferance, being a tg. But so do non-tg's who get mixed up with the wrong lover or people or neighborhood. You won't change the world from having haters no matter how hard you try. Hate crimes happen everyday and the people that commit them aren't going to hear your voice nomatter how loud you are. Everyone seems to have an opinion on abortion, go influence an activist to change there mind. It likely won't happen because they are so one way. Change a hard core democrat to a republican, good luck.

I really wonder why there are so many things you all feel you are ripped off from in the world that doesn't already happen to a non tg person. We all have inner battles with ourselves to a degree, same as you. We all have battles with society nomatter your race, creed, religion or gender. What is it you want from everyone? I'm honestly curious.

*hugs* freta you hit the nail on the head.. as for drew. non tg's don't have the same problems that tg's do. they will get attacked hurt and a bunch of other things you have stated. we all have a hard life to live, yes that is true, but for tg people it is even harder. have you been molested in the past. if so then you know how hard it is to deal with a mental brake that effects every thing you do. for tg people it is the same, in the aspect that we have to deal with feeling like we are in the wrong body, a lot of us think of suicide to end the hurt that growing up with out being able to be yourself brings. i know i have, to many times to count. but i never went threw with it because many reasons.

as we grow up, we have the norms ev2ry one wants us to fallow. an example, probably been over used, but it is still true is the little boys who want to play with dolls. or even girls who want to do boy activities. mostly the girls are allowed to do it, at least now they are. but a boy who plays with dolls is considered gay or there is something wrong with him.... the mother or father don't care what he might be. whether it may be a tg or gay or whatnot. they just want him to be normal, as in a boy doing boy things and nothing else. this in and of itself is what causes a lot of tg's problems because there family doesn't want them to be themselves or be happy doing what they want. the boy grows up hurting inside, and most don't reach the age of 15 with out ending it.... or at least trying to.

most of the pain comes from trying to figure out how to tell there family. say you are gay. don't know if you are drew or not, but that isnt the point. if you are, have you told your family, and if so how hard was it. i am betting pretty hard. well it is just as hard if not harder for a tg person. being gay or bi or a lesbian in the past 20 or so years has become acceptable... being a tg on the other hand is still a long way off from being acceptable how ever it is becoming acceptable to a lesser degree. we don't have much protection in the workplace. much like minority's don't. because in truth being tg is very similar to being a minority.

and yes i am using the mtf tg perspective because a lot of the ftm tg people have it a bit less rough. still rough none the less.

and no offense drew but even though you say you want to understand, with every example we give prof for, you wont accept them or you come up with some kind of excuse as to why you wont accept it.. i can understand the not wanting to hear: i heard about this that and the other. but that doesn't mean that it isn't true. now don't take me wrong, i am not trying to bash you, i am just trying to let you know that it is my opinion that how you are stating things, is contradictory to what you are saying you want to do.

and one final note quoting you. "You want to know the BS things we had to do to get someone fired who was of a race other than white? We had to build a flippin' case on people of minority before we'd fire them showing how poor there work ethic was, write ups, theft, whatever it was before we could fire them because they always tend to pull out the race card and say this was the reason for termination. A white guy does one thing wrong, we fire him, no case, no questions asked because that card isn't in his deck. Also for hiring, a minority interviews, we almost had to hire them over someone more qualified in fear of them calling the county on us screaming discrimination. How BS is that???"

i agree people pulling out the race card is total bs, and so would pulling the tg card if they were being fired for poor work ethic and stuff. but in truth a lot of us have a good work ethic, and don't steel or do any of the bad things that would get us fired, so when we get fired and we do good work. what else could be the reason for it. and yes there are some times it can be lay offs and stuff but that is only true when there is lots of people being fired. but as i was saying, there are so many ways for a tg person to be fired, for any reason and have no protection for it. there is protection for racism in the work place, and agents being fired because of it. and i am pretty sure sense you had to hire and fire people you know about those protections. but tg people don't have them, or at the very least they aren't widely known, so we cant use them to save our butts.

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Drew, I haven't been having this conversation with you in order to convince you of anything. I was being an optimist and taking you at your word that you weren't looking for an argument. It seems pretty clear to me that you don't lack understanding, you lack empathy and compassion. I'm okay with that, it's a free country and you have the right to the pursuit of happiness whatever form that takes. I do have a problem with someone who says one thing and does the opposite though and I have no intention of playing your little game any longer. I really miss Pampers Pete, at least he wasn't a hypocrite.

Hugs,

Freta

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*sigh* I'm going to dissect this, because the following post pisses me off. I'm now wondering if he's trolling.

How many times have you been attacked completely without provocation on the street, Drew? Really? I'm clocking at five times. Two of which sent me to the ER. Why? Because I looked or sounded different. And I PASS. I have it better than most of us for that reason alone.

People don't tend to get attacked for no reason in most places. Sorry. You're wrong.

Tg's have just as much protection as anyone for getting fired.

BZZZZZT!! WRONG! Currently, discrimination against transgender folk is only illegal in 13 states out of the U.S, plus DC.

What protection do I have??? They could fire me for being staight, that's not against the law either sooooo I don't see how you feel different than anyone else here.

I agree it's less likely to get fired over being straight but it could happen.

BZZZZT! WRONG! You are currently protected from discriminatory firing practices in 21 states in the union for firing based on sexuality or sexual identity.

Are you transgender? If not, then you have one protection that we do not from being fired from your job for simply looking/acting different in ways that do not affect your ability to work.

Firing for TG folk DOES happen. Your hypothetical is stomped back into nonexistence by our reality.

If the employer has not set a dress code and it is not an at-will state, firing for hair or clothing as a reason is likely to cause a lawsuit.

Not all states are at-will states and most states that are at-will are bound by their contractual obligations, which in most states will supercede any at-will clause, another fact that you seem to conveniently gloss over. Furthermore, discrimination-based firing is idiotic and despicable. There's a reason why 13 states, so far, have illegalized it based on gender identity and 21 based on sexual identity.

It's a poor practice to do it over issues like a tg and the company if this got out would probably be looked down upon.

Ah! Everybody else does it, so it's okay! I love this excuse, because it's the same one by which companies were able to send packs of hired guns to mow down protestors in the 20's. I'm sure that the companies without these practices will look bad! Because we all know that a significant number of politicians don't advocate the practice, right? Idiot.

I use to hire and fire for a company I worked for. You want to know the BS things we had to do to get someone fired who was of a race other than white?

Prove that they weren't doing their job? OMG!!!

I'm guessing they have a few lawsuits pending now or fired you, considering your lack of grasp of discrimination law.

We had to build a flippin' case on people of minority before we'd fire them showing how poor there work ethic was, write ups, theft, whatever it was before we could fire them because they always tend to pull out the race card and say this was the reason for termination.

Prove that they weren't doing their job? OMG!!!

A white guy does one thing wrong, we fire him, no case, no questions asked because that card isn't in his deck. Also for hiring, a minority interviews, we almost had to hire them over someone more qualified in fear of them calling the county on us screaming discrimination.

That's a fault in your practice. If the hypothetical white guy had half a brain, he could sue you for discriminatory hiring and firing practices.

No wonder you "worked" for them. Hiring/firing practices are supposed to be legally confidential precisely to protect a company from this kind of thing.

As far as nobody wanting you in there bathroom, well that's just to dang bad for everyone else. You can use a bathroom and everyone else can just suck it up or leave if they don't like it.

Call me when you have your head bashed on a sink for going into a bathroom, please.

Or they can beat the crap out of us. Either way, I guess.

I'm 5'4.5", 100 pounds. One decently angry person could and has lain me out. "Banding" not necessary.

Actually, it's less likely at work. Most people aren't quite as douchetacular as that.It is apparently hard for you to realize how ignorant of this situation you are.

My previous quote was simply to prevent a barage of stories saying "I heard of a tg who..."

I AM a TG who.

because like I said, it doesn't happen often enough for you to all have stories so I would've believed it if you all said I know of a dozen cases myself...or heard of a dozen tg's who... I'm sure there are a handful of stories out there of a tg getting beat but what I'm saying is just because there's some stories, doesn't necessarily mean it happens all the time,

Because you don't hear about it that much it never happens, eh? Idiot. I bet you think that racism has ended in the US too, right?

to the point wear a separate bathrooms needed for tg's.

Needed? Meh. A good thing in a fitting situation? Sure. Also, this isn't a separate bathroom just for TGs. It is a separate bathroom for any who choose not to use the gender-specific ones. Follow along, now...

That's my point really.

Your point is that you make base assumptions based on asininely incomplete knowledge of a situation? Cool! Thanks for clearing that up. And here I thought you were just being a jerk for the sake of it...

Plenty more non tg's get beat everyday too, not saying it's okay but what do we do for them???

Equal protection. Look it up.

I went to the website. I'm not brushing off the fact, people get killed over this subject.

Yes. Yes you are. You have. You continue to. That's what's so offensive about your posts.

The only difference, nobody I know of banded together to create a website for them.

Aww! I guess that makes it okay!

I get it, people died because of sexual preferance, being a tg.

You plainly do not because you continue to act as if it isn't a big deal and that we should just suck it up.

But so do non-tg's who get mixed up with the wrong lover or people or neighborhood.

Prove to me that these situations are analogous. Of course, you've got your bigot blinders on, so you probably wouldn't even care to note the numbers.

You won't change the world from having haters no matter how hard you try.

So the solution is to make it as easy as possible for the haters to continue discriminating and making life hell for us, eh?

I really wonder why there are so many things you all feel you are ripped off from in the world that doesn't already happen to a non tg person.

See above. Equal protection. The ability to walk down the street alone at night.

What is it we want? Equality. Despite your woefully uninformed opinion, we do not have it. In many states, it is still an often used defense to have killed a TG person because she or he fooled you. Do you understand that? In most states, you can fire somebody for having the wrong voice, the wrong hair, having nothing to do with their clothes and having nothing to do with their job description.

I could go on, but I'm wasting my time. You're not even willing to give us anything other than fake stories from your own life that "prove" how good we have it. What an ass. You have no idea what hell many of us, myself included, have been through to get where we are today.

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"douchetacular" :huh: ... Ding..Ding..Ding. I got's me a new word of the day. I'm going to go down to me locals Wally World, and find someone worthy of calling them my new word of the day!!!! :P

So okay let me interject some thoughts for a second. While it's more than plausible and more than likely you "guys" are subject to some serious issues as you try to pursue your lives.

I have to ask why don't you do something to help yourselves. I mean I was a pretty small guy all my life, I got picked on a lot in Jr. High and High School. For some reason, I decided to take a big challenge and Joined the Marines. I went from 114 pounds to 126 in three months. Still a pretty small guy, a bit more muscle. Some Fighting skills, more in the line of Killing skills.

When I was injured and Medically seperated, I went pretty much to under 100lbs. Most people who knew me would stick up for me, some wouldn't bother with me. There were those whoever decided to challenge me for whatever reason. Marine Veteran...I'll kick your ass type of mentality. It took a lot of discipline not to want to kill the idiots of the world.

I heard of a small section of guys in my company who were taking a somewhat unknown form of Martial arts that worked in a different section. I went and talked to their supervisor, who was the Sensei for their class. He refused to take me due to my injuries. I fought him tooth and nail for a while and finally after getting the go-ahead from my doctors started training with them. The classes seemed to me like I was going to boot camp all over again. I studied for 3 years and finally obtained my Yellow belt (Our Classes were extremely different). I guess my point of all this is, take some classes to protect yourself. We offered children classes and Women self-defense, as well as Wheel chair bound defense tactics. I can't tell you how many women were freaked out when their 90lb frame threw a 300lb guy across the room. I can assure you gang, If you take down the first idiot that bothers you. The rest get the message real quick.

I seem to remember back when our own Heidi Lynn (RIP, miss ya) Changed her life, "she" was in no way passable per say. But yet lead her life as a toddler girl 24/7 in one of the roughest cities around. She had her share of confrontations and battles. But the Martial Arts training she endured not only protected her but made a statement. I don't know a whole lot of big macho guys that like getting their ass handed to them buy a guy in a short frilly dress, that wears a diaper and plastic panties.

So I say, after all my long winded thread hi-jack. Go out and get some training and continue with it. It will make you stronger both mentally and physically. And perhaps when/if the time comes to have to use it. You will make a huge impact on the way that people think about you and yours. Word get's out trust me, every bar and tavern up and down the street knew the next morning. I haven't had to use my skills much, but when a drunk recently Broke a $400 custom pool cue (Not his) over a table and threatened the Barmaid with the sharp dagger end to her neck for refusing to serve him...I stepped in.

I can assure you he is still wondering how the heck his elbow was broken and when he woke up outside with the police, Yeah I choked (Blood choke) him out :whistling: . They took his butt away...all the while, the "Big" biker guys looked on, not doing a thing to help this poor little girl. I went back to my seat and continued on like nothing happened albeit with a few free drinks . But I can assure you nobody even thinks about phucken' with this little guy anymore.... have a good day...and please think about some training for self defense.! The idiots are everywhere! :thumbsup: Don't worry that you won't be accepted or looked down upon, any Dojo worth a damn could care less!

Oh yeah, that style I learned can be watched now regularly on the Spike channel and Pay-per-view. It's called mixed martial arts (The best of all arts combined into one) So see you soon on the UFC!

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*smile*

It's a pretty valid question, Repaid. The simple answer is that most do. Me? I just make big friends and hang out with them most of the time when I'm in public. I don't really have the opportunities, for various reasons, for most types of martial training anymore, and of course joining the army/marines/navy is simply not an option for me with the current state of things. Most of what happened to me happened in the further past. Most of if happened before I turned eighteen, and the one incident after I was eighteen, well, I think that at that point I finally learned better ways to be avoidant.

The question of the day, though, is why should we have to?

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To Leilin:

It seems interesting how you are also making accusation about who I am and what I do. You did a lot of name calling I felt was unnecessary.

I am simply trying to show you how somebody who is not a tg or and not gay perceives you and your group. I am playing devil's advocate here essentially. I am asking the hard questions. I agree you should be treated as everyone else, I really do. I think you should be able to have a job and not get beat up either. Here's the however though. Just because I say it happens to other people, doesn't mean I am agreeing that it's okay. What I'm telling you is you're not the only one who is getting picked on in the world and no law will change you from getting beat-up if that's what's happening. Like Repaid said, protect yourself and only you can do that. You can't beat a straight non tg and get away with it either. The laws for assault are the same for anyone. You may feel as though you have a larger target on your back but the people that see you as a target probably don't care about the law anyway. I am a target for a group, your neighbor is, family, friend. Someone may not like them for any reason, race, sex, creed, religion, just for being an American. All people are targets to someone. Again, not saying it's okay but there's nothing the law can do from getting you beat up by your predator unless they give you a body guard. You can influence people it's wrong but the people who listen already know that and the people that are the predator won't listen.

I have not been beat probably because I stand in at 6'2" and 260lbs. But a group or even one person with some training like repaid could probably take me down. David vs. Goliath like repaids saying, not the size of the dog in the fight, the size of the fight in the dog. I have gotten into, scuffles several times especially when I've confronted people for shoplifting at my previous job but never been beat. I attribute this to a few things. I don't put myself in threatening situations, THIS HERE IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST KEY. I have not gone someone or done something because I didn't feel safe in a situation. I stay out of the "wrong" neighborhoods. I agree, my size may have helped. If I find I am in a situation I don't like, I act confident and don't look scared, predator’s sense fear. I have a good way of making people talk things out and not letting them escalate. I let my voice show, don't F with me but not too aggressively to escalate the situation.

I am curious to know the circumstances around your beatings and would like to know what brought them on and how you dealt with it. I realize, your predators don't have signs over their heads so it could be anyone walking down the street but just wondering how you avoid it too.

This whole argument over the hire/fire thing simply comes down to this. Do employers actually write in your file if you’re a TG and get fired, REASON FOR TERMINATION, TG.? Truth of the matter is, if a company wants to get rid of you, they will. Not condoning the practice and no, not saying if everyone else does it it's okay. You are telling me I'm wrong that I can't get fired for being straight yet according to you I can in 29 states and I guess ones outside the union, and you're telling me you can get fired for being a tg but you can't in 13 states. So really we can both get fired for who we are, I have 8 extra states I can't though.

As far as my job goes, it was a great job I made a good living on but I left my job there for my career that makes over double what I made before so your whole "worked" thing makes me laugh as though you’re going to profile me and think I got fired over something. They hated to see me go thank you very much. Almost any employer will tell you they have to build a larger case against someone who is a minority in fear they will lawyer up and scream lawsuit. Your whole "Prove that they weren't doing their job? OMG!!!" phrase makes me laugh because apparently YOU don't have a concept of this. I could easily find one thing on an average Joe to fire them over, document it or Prove it and that would be the end. No lawyer would take their case. However a minority in all senses down to a pregnant woman who felt as though they could claim to have been fired over who they were and not for what they did or didn't do, the case had to be much, much stronger and often multiple offenses before we could terminate because too many of them got back pay and their jobs back even though they may have blatantly stolen and I have video evidence, the court would rule, we didn't give them a fair chance to fix the problem through mediation, retraining or other means. The average Joes were cut and dried. You almost have to get in the head of the person your building a case against and think of all the reasons they could come up with on why we fired them.

Your last little rant on how I read the website info, you took each part of my full quote and comment on but not taking the thing in its entirety changed what I was getting at. Read it in its entirety before commenting. Here it is again:

I went to the website. I'm not brushing off the fact, people get killed over this subject. However, as stated before, average Joes get beat and killed every day to for being who they are. The only difference, nobody I know of banded together to create a website for them. I get it, people died because of sexual preference, being a tg. But so do non-tg's who get mixed up with the wrong lover or people or neighborhood. You won't change the world from having haters no matter how hard you try. Hate crimes happen every day and the people that commit them aren't going to hear your voice no matter how loud you are.

I AM NOT BRUSHING IT OFF. I realize it happens to tg's but, and here's the but, it can happen to anyone, anyone, anyone for any reason a predator chooses. I don't know if there is a website but I haven't found one where women were killed for being women, but it happens too and I don't like it either. There will always be haters in this world or predators. Like I said before, your only defense is you. Murder is illegal but it happens every day, so is rape, whatever the law but the laws are broken even though they are in place. So I'm saying, making a different law is not going to make the streets any safer for you to walk down the street at night. I'm not sure how you don't have equal protection but what law are you suggesting they impose. It's illegal to kill a tg??? Murder is illegal so how do you feel you don't fall into this category? You are saying that "it is still an often used defense to have killed a TG person because she or he fooled you" well, there are plenty of insane murders who come up with insane defenses including insanity, self defense, whatever. Watch court TV and see all the defenses that come out. As far as I know, a gay man could just as well murder a straight man and claim he fooled him after he found out he was married or whatever. Anything can and always will be accepted as a defense so not sure I get your point here.

Your right about one thing, I don't know what it's like to be a tg. It is a battle within yourself and the community. I'm trying to show you two sides of the coin and thank you lil jenny for being mostly understanding of what I'm saying here. I have my own battles same as you or anyone every day. There are days I don't feel good about how I look or my image either. I know it is probably ten times harder being in your battle. I feel bad you have to go through your battle. I feel bad when someone battle cancer and loses there life over it, I feel bad for a lot of people. I have learned a lot from you and I hope you can take something from an "outsider" so you know how maybe a lot of us feel. If anything, I got you discussing and thinking about things as you have done the same for me. I am not trying to cause an argument but am just battling with some of what I read here because I read it and go, well, plenty of non tg's have the same issues so it's not just a tg thing. The only criticism I'll give lil jenny is saying "we all have a hard life to live, yes that is true, but for tg people it is even harder." How can you possibly know what everyone else has to go through in life? You really have it the worst in every way? I just get the feeling here that tg's often think they have the hardest lives to live. Maybe that's why I seem as though I'm so unaccepting of what a lot of your life battles are because people battle with themselves and society everyday just as you do and I do too, tg or not. I will agree you have it harder than me but not everyone for sure, for sure! Also, for lil jenny, I do know full share about molestation, and no, I'm not gay but I do have a handful of gay friends or coworkers. They all have partners too. The only thing I noticed with them is they really have to display to everyone their affection for one another, much more than all of my straight friends. Not sure if it makes them feel liberated or what to do it and haven't asked but that's a whole other topic. I'll just end it with do whatever makes you feel good about yourself, whatever it may be, and I'll do the same. Peace

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*smile*

It's a pretty valid question, Repaid. The simple answer is that most do. Me? I just make big friends and hang out with them most of the time when I'm in public. I don't really have the opportunities, for various reasons, for most types of martial training anymore, and of course joining the army/marines/navy is simply not an option for me with the current state of things. Most of what happened to me happened in the further past. Most of if happened before I turned eighteen, and the one incident after I was eighteen, well, I think that at that point I finally learned better ways to be avoidant.

The question of the day, though, is why should we have to?

Just for clarification, I had started my novel of a post before this was up. But I do agree here. Why should you have to, then again, why should anyone have to????

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*sigh* I'm going to dissect this, because the following post pisses me off. I'm now wondering if he's trolling.

How many times have you been attacked completely without provocation on the street, Drew? Really? I'm clocking at five times. Two of which sent me to the ER. Why? Because I looked or sounded different. And I PASS. I have it better than most of us for that reason alone.

People don't tend to get attacked for no reason in most places. Sorry. You're wrong.

Tg's have just as much protection as anyone for getting fired.

BZZZZZT!! WRONG! Currently, discrimination against transgender folk is only illegal in 13 states out of the U.S, plus DC.

What protection do I have??? They could fire me for being staight, that's not against the law either sooooo I don't see how you feel different than anyone else here.

I agree it's less likely to get fired over being straight but it could happen.

BZZZZT! WRONG! You are currently protected from discriminatory firing practices in 21 states in the union for firing based on sexuality or sexual identity.

Are you transgender? If not, then you have one protection that we do not from being fired from your job for simply looking/acting different in ways that do not affect your ability to work.

Firing for TG folk DOES happen. Your hypothetical is stomped back into nonexistence by our reality.

If the employer has not set a dress code and it is not an at-will state, firing for hair or clothing as a reason is likely to cause a lawsuit.

Not all states are at-will states and most states that are at-will are bound by their contractual obligations, which in most states will supercede any at-will clause, another fact that you seem to conveniently gloss over. Furthermore, discrimination-based firing is idiotic and despicable. There's a reason why 13 states, so far, have illegalized it based on gender identity and 21 based on sexual identity.

It's a poor practice to do it over issues like a tg and the company if this got out would probably be looked down upon.

Ah! Everybody else does it, so it's okay! I love this excuse, because it's the same one by which companies were able to send packs of hired guns to mow down protestors in the 20's. I'm sure that the companies without these practices will look bad! Because we all know that a significant number of politicians don't advocate the practice, right? Idiot.

I use to hire and fire for a company I worked for. You want to know the BS things we had to do to get someone fired who was of a race other than white?

Prove that they weren't doing their job? OMG!!!

I'm guessing they have a few lawsuits pending now or fired you, considering your lack of grasp of discrimination law.

We had to build a flippin' case on people of minority before we'd fire them showing how poor there work ethic was, write ups, theft, whatever it was before we could fire them because they always tend to pull out the race card and say this was the reason for termination.

Prove that they weren't doing their job? OMG!!!

A white guy does one thing wrong, we fire him, no case, no questions asked because that card isn't in his deck. Also for hiring, a minority interviews, we almost had to hire them over someone more qualified in fear of them calling the county on us screaming discrimination.

That's a fault in your practice. If the hypothetical white guy had half a brain, he could sue you for discriminatory hiring and firing practices.

No wonder you "worked" for them. Hiring/firing practices are supposed to be legally confidential precisely to protect a company from this kind of thing.

As far as nobody wanting you in there bathroom, well that's just to dang bad for everyone else. You can use a bathroom and everyone else can just suck it up or leave if they don't like it.

Call me when you have your head bashed on a sink for going into a bathroom, please.

Or they can beat the crap out of us. Either way, I guess.

I'm 5'4.5", 100 pounds. One decently angry person could and has lain me out. "Banding" not necessary.

Actually, it's less likely at work. Most people aren't quite as douchetacular as that.It is apparently hard for you to realize how ignorant of this situation you are.

My previous quote was simply to prevent a barage of stories saying "I heard of a tg who..."

I AM a TG who.

because like I said, it doesn't happen often enough for you to all have stories so I would've believed it if you all said I know of a dozen cases myself...or heard of a dozen tg's who... I'm sure there are a handful of stories out there of a tg getting beat but what I'm saying is just because there's some stories, doesn't necessarily mean it happens all the time,

Because you don't hear about it that much it never happens, eh? Idiot. I bet you think that racism has ended in the US too, right?

to the point wear a separate bathrooms needed for tg's.

Needed? Meh. A good thing in a fitting situation? Sure. Also, this isn't a separate bathroom just for TGs. It is a separate bathroom for any who choose not to use the gender-specific ones. Follow along, now...

That's my point really.

Your point is that you make base assumptions based on asininely incomplete knowledge of a situation? Cool! Thanks for clearing that up. And here I thought you were just being a jerk for the sake of it...

Plenty more non tg's get beat everyday too, not saying it's okay but what do we do for them???

Equal protection. Look it up.

I went to the website. I'm not brushing off the fact, people get killed over this subject.

Yes. Yes you are. You have. You continue to. That's what's so offensive about your posts.

The only difference, nobody I know of banded together to create a website for them.

Aww! I guess that makes it okay!

I get it, people died because of sexual preferance, being a tg.

You plainly do not because you continue to act as if it isn't a big deal and that we should just suck it up.

But so do non-tg's who get mixed up with the wrong lover or people or neighborhood.

Prove to me that these situations are analogous. Of course, you've got your bigot blinders on, so you probably wouldn't even care to note the numbers.

You won't change the world from having haters no matter how hard you try.

So the solution is to make it as easy as possible for the haters to continue discriminating and making life hell for us, eh?

I really wonder why there are so many things you all feel you are ripped off from in the world that doesn't already happen to a non tg person.

See above. Equal protection. The ability to walk down the street alone at night.

What is it we want? Equality. Despite your woefully uninformed opinion, we do not have it. In many states, it is still an often used defense to have killed a TG person because she or he fooled you. Do you understand that? In most states, you can fire somebody for having the wrong voice, the wrong hair, having nothing to do with their clothes and having nothing to do with their job description.

I could go on, but I'm wasting my time. You're not even willing to give us anything other than fake stories from your own life that "prove" how good we have it. What an ass. You have no idea what hell many of us, myself included, have been through to get where we are today.

*hugs tight * well i can see i am not the only one that think there are some ignorant people out there. i wanted to say the same thing but i haven't been threw as much as you have been * hugs again* well physically that is.

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To Leilin:

It seems interesting how you are also making accusation about who I am and what I do. You did a lot of name calling I felt was unnecessary.

I am simply trying to show you how somebody who is not a tg or and not gay perceives you and your group. I am playing devil's advocate here essentially. I am asking the hard questions. I agree you should be treated as everyone else, I really do. I think you should be able to have a job and not get beat up either. Here's the however though. Just because I say it happens to other people, doesn't mean I am agreeing that it's okay. What I'm telling you is you're not the only one who is getting picked on in the world and no law will change you from getting beat-up if that's what's happening. Like Repaid said, protect yourself and only you can do that. You can't beat a straight non tg and get away with it either. The laws for assault are the same for anyone. You may feel as though you have a larger target on your back but the people that see you as a target probably don't care about the law anyway. I am a target for a group, your neighbor is, family, friend. Someone may not like them for any reason, race, sex, creed, religion, just for being an American. All people are targets to someone. Again, not saying it's okay but there's nothing the law can do from getting you beat up by your predator unless they give you a body guard. You can influence people it's wrong but the people who listen already know that and the people that are the predator won't listen.

I have not been beat probably because I stand in at 6'2" and 260lbs. But a group or even one person with some training like repaid could probably take me down. David vs. Goliath like repaids saying, not the size of the dog in the fight, the size of the fight in the dog. I have gotten into, scuffles several times especially when I've confronted people for shoplifting at my previous job but never been beat. I attribute this to a few things. I don't put myself in threatening situations, THIS HERE IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST KEY. I have not gone someone or done something because I didn't feel safe in a situation. I stay out of the "wrong" neighborhoods. I agree, my size may have helped. If I find I am in a situation I don't like, I act confident and don't look scared, predator’s sense fear. I have a good way of making people talk things out and not letting them escalate. I let my voice show, don't F with me but not too aggressively to escalate the situation.

I am curious to know the circumstances around your beatings and would like to know what brought them on and how you dealt with it. I realize, your predators don't have signs over their heads so it could be anyone walking down the street but just wondering how you avoid it too.

This whole argument over the hire/fire thing simply comes down to this. Do employers actually write in your file if you’re a TG and get fired, REASON FOR TERMINATION, TG.? Truth of the matter is, if a company wants to get rid of you, they will. Not condoning the practice and no, not saying if everyone else does it it's okay. You are telling me I'm wrong that I can't get fired for being straight yet according to you I can in 29 states and I guess ones outside the union, and you're telling me you can get fired for being a tg but you can't in 13 states. So really we can both get fired for who we are, I have 8 extra states I can't though.

As far as my job goes, it was a great job I made a good living on but I left my job there for my career that makes over double what I made before so your whole "worked" thing makes me laugh as though you’re going to profile me and think I got fired over something. They hated to see me go thank you very much. Almost any employer will tell you they have to build a larger case against someone who is a minority in fear they will lawyer up and scream lawsuit. Your whole "Prove that they weren't doing their job? OMG!!!" phrase makes me laugh because apparently YOU don't have a concept of this. I could easily find one thing on an average Joe to fire them over, document it or Prove it and that would be the end. No lawyer would take their case. However a minority in all senses down to a pregnant woman who felt as though they could claim to have been fired over who they were and not for what they did or didn't do, the case had to be much, much stronger and often multiple offenses before we could terminate because too many of them got back pay and their jobs back even though they may have blatantly stolen and I have video evidence, the court would rule, we didn't give them a fair chance to fix the problem through mediation, retraining or other means. The average Joes were cut and dried. You almost have to get in the head of the person your building a case against and think of all the reasons they could come up with on why we fired them.

Your last little rant on how I read the website info, you took each part of my full quote and comment on but not taking the thing in its entirety changed what I was getting at. Read it in its entirety before commenting. Here it is again:

I AM NOT BRUSHING IT OFF. I realize it happens to tg's but, and here's the but, it can happen to anyone, anyone, anyone for any reason a predator chooses. I don't know if there is a website but I haven't found one where women were killed for being women, but it happens too and I don't like it either. There will always be haters in this world or predators. Like I said before, your only defense is you. Murder is illegal but it happens every day, so is rape, whatever the law but the laws are broken even though they are in place. So I'm saying, making a different law is not going to make the streets any safer for you to walk down the street at night. I'm not sure how you don't have equal protection but what law are you suggesting they impose. It's illegal to kill a tg??? Murder is illegal so how do you feel you don't fall into this category? You are saying that "it is still an often used defense to have killed a TG person because she or he fooled you" well, there are plenty of insane murders who come up with insane defenses including insanity, self defense, whatever. Watch court TV and see all the defenses that come out. As far as I know, a gay man could just as well murder a straight man and claim he fooled him after he found out he was married or whatever. Anything can and always will be accepted as a defense so not sure I get your point here.

Your right about one thing, I don't know what it's like to be a tg. It is a battle within yourself and the community. I'm trying to show you two sides of the coin and thank you lil jenny for being mostly understanding of what I'm saying here. I have my own battles same as you or anyone every day. There are days I don't feel good about how I look or my image either. I know it is probably ten times harder being in your battle. I feel bad you have to go through your battle. I feel bad when someone battle cancer and loses there life over it, I feel bad for a lot of people. I have learned a lot from you and I hope you can take something from an "outsider" so you know how maybe a lot of us feel. If anything, I got you discussing and thinking about things as you have done the same for me. I am not trying to cause an argument but am just battling with some of what I read here because I read it and go, well, plenty of non tg's have the same issues so it's not just a tg thing. The only criticism I'll give lil jenny is saying "we all have a hard life to live, yes that is true, but for tg people it is even harder." How can you possibly know what everyone else has to go through in life? You really have it the worst in every way? I just get the feeling here that tg's often think they have the hardest lives to live. Maybe that's why I seem as though I'm so unaccepting of what a lot of your life battles are because people battle with themselves and society everyday just as you do and I do too, tg or not. I will agree you have it harder than me but not everyone for sure, for sure! Also, for lil jenny, I do know full share about molestation, and no, I'm not gay but I do have a handful of gay friends or coworkers. They all have partners too. The only thing I noticed with them is they really have to display to everyone their affection for one another, much more than all of my straight friends. Not sure if it makes them feel liberated or what to do it and haven't asked but that's a whole other topic. I'll just end it with do whatever makes you feel good about yourself, whatever it may be, and I'll do the same. Peace

to clarify what i was saying and answer your question. i personally haven't been in every situation that is horrible for every one. but i do have friends and family i see it happening to right in front of my eyes. and for the clarification i meant that gays had it hard women and blacks too when they were fighting for there rights. and right now, it is our fight, and it is just as hard as the ones before it.

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