Isreal

[FUNNYPANTS]

Hey Everyone:

I was thinking of a solution to the fighting on the Gaza Strip. I fought during the Gulf War, and it seems like there is no solution to the fighting. How about if we send (10) aircraft over there full of adult diapers and pretty plastic panties for the troops to wear? The president can talk to the Defense Minister, and a plan to build many outside playpens for their troops. The signing of giving the woman over there the responsibility to care for their military adult babies, untill they calm down and quit fighting. Just a thought.

Ian

[freswith]

I can't see any solution likely to bring a ceasefire to these two sets of awful people. Perhaps we could spray the whole area with norovirus so they have something else to do apart from fighting each other.

[Baby Bethany]

What Israel is doing would have been comparable to our government trying to solve the problems in Northern Ireland by sealing the borders around Belfast and bombing the city to a pulp, regardless of whether or not the people being killed were members of the IRA. Not only would this have been an atrocity, it would have forced people into the arms of the IRA, and by using funding from Irish Americans they would have carried out weekly bombings of London. Because this is what happens when you punish an entire nation of people for the actions of a few extremists, i.e. you kill innocents, and you in turn make their loved ones into an extremist.......hate begets hate!!

We all know that previous British governments have a lot to answer for with regards to Israel, on the basis that we promised the same land to both the Jews and the Muslims. That aside, the problems in Israel will never be solved by the use of tanks and air strikes, or for that matter terrorism. Just as the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan will never be solved by the same.

Beth

[underwhere]

The problem is actually far simpler than has been described so far, although the solution, if there can even be one, will be necessarily overly complex.

Hamas, among many other similar groups, does not recognize Israel's right to exist as a nation. Therefore, they do not believe they are doing anything wrong by either directly launching, or indirectly sanctioning the launching, of missiles and rockets and mortar into Israel, nor do they seem to care how many of their followers or Israeli civilians die in suicide bombings, a tactic which it seems they may have recently abandoned in favor of all out military strikes against Israel from a distance.

Until Hamas and the other groups realizes that Israel will never go away, and settle with "making peace for the benefit of everybody", something which Israel would have been more than pleased to do 60 years ago, there can not be peace. Who would have peace looking over their shoulder in fear of a random military action against you at any moment in time?

These conflicts are, in truth, thousands of years old at this point. To expect that they could be solved with diplomacy was the delusion of Yitzhak Rabin for which he paid the ultimate sacrifice, and the current Israeli government seems to believe that the only way to protect itself from assault is to fight back much harder. One can argue that their response was overzealous, but when you have a gun pointing at your back with somebody willing to pull the trigger at any moment, wouldn't you do something to prevent the trigger from being pulled?

As a Jew, I respect Israel's right to exist, and Israel's right to defend itself against any military action taken against it in any way that Israel believes is necessary. Anything less than that and I would have to support suicide bombings and the killing of innocent civilians by mortar and rocket launches, and since I do not support that, I am resigned to the fact that this is a conflict which neither side is likely going to be willing to budge on in any reasonable way for the foreseeable future. More civilians will die. This time, one can only thank Hamas for setting the stage where no other possible course of action could be taken by Israel in an effort to defend itself from current and future attacks.

[lil_baby_wet_n_squishy]

The problem won't be solved till Hamas is killed off. There is no such thing as a Palestinian. The gaza strip used to belong to Egypt and the west bank to Syria. Both they lost in wars they started. They are arab refugees that no one in the arab world is willing to accept. It's funny how a couple of dead civilians gets so much international attention and condemnation. When every 60 secs someone dies in Africa (1440 people in a day). Yet little is done to stop that. They talk about poor conditions in the gaza strip.. they have better conditions then most africa countries. Last I checked gasoline, electricity, and cell phones weren't a requirement for survival.

[freswith]

I am not a Jew, and carry no torch for Israel. I feel if someone came to my door and demanded I hand over my home on the strength of an ancient holy book, I would be very much aggrieved. The claim that they would develop my garden and grow lovely melons on it would not impress. The claim that it was going to be settled by the survivors of the Holocaust would cut no ice; very few Israelis were anywhere near the death camps, most have immigrated from Russia or America, and have shamelessly ethnically-cleansed the land to provide their own "lebensraum".

That said, I have little sympathy for the Palestinians either. If ever a people had a talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, it is they. T E Lawrence wrote the definitive description of the peoples who comprise the "Palestinians", and although he liked them, and served them, they were his despair with their fruitless squabbling, venality, pomposity and feuding. It also seems that the more intelligent amongst them have evaporated from the refugees camps, leaving a none-too-bright bunch behind. It is no good saying "There is no such thing as a Palestinian" since there is no such thing as an Israeli, either. They are all, like the British or the Americans, a hodgepodge, but they all have the right to live as equals under the law.

What is inexcusable is the amount of aid sent by the Americans to support Israeli aggression. Without it, they would have to pipe down and restrain their excesses. US Taxpayers money paid as aid to Israel is partly fed back to US Congressmen by one route or another as bribes, and this is a scandal. The moral support of the American fundamentalist neo-cons for Zionism is ludicrous. (We must remember that it was largely US money which financed the IRA in their murderous campaigns against us in Britain, while we were enjoying a so-called "special relationship".) Obama has made all kinds of noises, but I note that he was most obsequious to AIPAC, and therefore his credibility and impartiality are now very shaky. It seems unlikely that this lightweight "pretty boy" will have the balls to tackle the problem.

Ultimately, I do not understand why the Americans court those who grow oranges against those who have the oil. It is not in the best interest of the ordinary Joe to do this. We need the oil, bugger the oranges!

[redneck diaper boy]

Israel has the right idea. They have taken enough shit from Hamas. It is about time that they fought back. They gave up Gaza for Peace. Hamas doesn't want peace.

Terrorist should never be negoiated with. Terrorist should be killed period.

I was in high school when Golda Mayer was the prime minister of Israel. She made this profound statement. "There will be peace when Arab mothers love their children more then they hate Jews" (Golda Mayer).

Hey Everyone:

I was thinking of a solution to the fighting on the Gaza Strip. I fought during the Gulf War, and it seems like there is no solution to the fighting. How about if we send (10) aircraft over there full of adult diapers and pretty plastic panties for the troops to wear? The president can talk to the Defense Minister, and a plan to build many outside playpens for their troops. The signing of giving the woman over there the responsibility to care for their military adult babies, untill they calm down and quit fighting. Just a thought.

Ian

[underwhere]

Freswith, as I was reading your statement on this issue, you had me nodding my head with everything you wrote. I hadn't thought about it in the terms you described it, but it did make a lot of sense. However, you then made a statement I have some objection to:

What is inexcusable is the amount of aid sent by the Americans to support Israeli aggression. Without it, they would have to pipe down and restrain their excesses. US Taxpayers money paid as aid to Israel is partly fed back to US Congressmen by one route or another as bribes, and this is a scandal. The moral support of the American fundamentalist neo-cons for Zionism is ludicrous. (We must remember that it was largely US money which financed the IRA in their murderous campaigns against us in Britain, while we were enjoying a so-called "special relationship".) Obama has made all kinds of noises, but I note that he was most obsequious to AIPAC, and therefore his credibility and impartiality are now very shaky. It seems unlikely that this lightweight "pretty boy" will have the balls to tackle the problem.

First, the part I agree with: American aid is, indeed, sent to Israel in the millions of dollars every year. Since Israel is the only (to date) democracy in the middle east, and since democracy has always been the focus of American international politics, I think it is indeed in the best of America to do whatever it can to foster similar styles of government elsewhere. This is not so much about Zionism as it is about democracy. When compared with most of the Arab nations who seem to favor governments which do not even believe in the human rights of their own people, Israel looks like a walk in the park. Heck, in this regard, Israel is BETTER than the USA, because for many years throughout the Cold War until Iraq's first invasion of Kuwait, the USA was funneling money and arms to Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq while the USSR was funneling money and arms to Iran. If that is not monkeying in the political doings of other nations, I am not sure what it.

I'm not sure where your claims of bribery and scandal originate from. I'd love to see a citation on that. I do not quite understand why, politically, the USA would want to sponsor the IRA whose primary mode of protest seemed to be blowing things up.

I do, however, think your assessment of Obama may be correct. I say "may" because until he actually takes office, he has been pretty clear in his public statements that "there is only one president at a time". We'll see what he is made of soon enough. I, along with the rest of the USA, has very high hopes for him. The real question is whether or not he will be able to live up to those high expectations, or whether, instead, he will fall on his face trying. Only time will tell in that regard.

[spoonchicken]

I say America should simply send in the entire Strategic Commands fixed-wing assets, and use napalm to carpet-bomb every square centimeter on both sides of the border. Just "kill 'em all", and.....oh, wait....sorry, I got confused. I was thinking of the Afgan-Pakistani border....never mind .....

[spoonchicken]

P.S......it's spelled "Israel"...

[freswith]

Freswith, as I was reading your statement on this issue, you had me nodding my head with everything you wrote. I hadn't thought about it in the terms you described it, but it did make a lot of sense. However, you then made a statement I have some objection to:

This is not so much about Zionism as it is about democracy. When compared with most of the Arab nations who seem to favor governments which do not even believe in the human rights of their own people, Israel looks like a walk in the park.

Remember that the Nazis were democratically elected, and the llaws against the Jews were passed by a democratic assembly. Isreal has invaded, taken "lebensraum", expelled its minorities, and turned the Gaza strip into what amounts to a huge concentration camp. It is now trying to destroy the democratically-elected government - Hamas - and starve the Palestinians into submission.

I'm not sure where your claims of bribery and scandal originate from. I'd love to see a citation on that. So would I. You can bet it's well concealed!

I do not quite understand why, politically, the USA would want to sponsor the IRA whose primary mode of protest seemed to be blowing things up.

It was sponsored by private donations from Americans of Irish origin for well over a century. IRA leaders were feted in the USA, their leaders welcomed in Washington, and US Representatives were smuggled across the border on "fact-finding" trips which they publicised to glorify themselves. All this was stopped - very firmly - after 9/11 - when the USA was severely terrorist-bombed for the first time, and the US wanted British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, with the result that the IRA promptly made peace.

I do, however, think your assessment of Obama may be correct. I say "may" because until he actually takes office, he has been pretty clear in his public statements that "there is only one president at a time". We'll see what he is made of soon enough. I, along with the rest of the USA, has very high hopes for him. The real question is whether or not he will be able to live up to those high expectations, or whether, instead, he will fall on his face trying. Only time will tell in that regard.

We have high hopes of Obama, too: but finite expectations. Some restraint of aid Israel, in the manner which IRA aid was cut off, would pull sharply on their choke-chain and produce a peace deal quite rapidly. This would do wonders for the reputation of the USA in the world as a whole, and make foreign policy much, much easier.

[Baby Bethany]

I'm not sure where your claims of bribery and scandal originate from. I'd love to see a citation on that. I do not quite understand why, politically, the USA would want to sponsor the IRA whose primary mode of protest seemed to be blowing things up.

Throughout its history the IRA was both supported and funded by the Irish American community. I was in New York in 1990 when I witnessed a protest by about 200 members of the Irish community (including many children that had been dragged along for the ride). A member of the IRA had recently been arrested and was in a British prison awaiting trial for his part in a bomb attack on London. These people were protesting that he was a freedom fighter and not a terrorist, so shouldn't face trial. During the same period I also witnessed people making collections among customers in Irish pubs in New York.

One of the big problems with the Arab world is that due to their traditional tribal loyalties, they lack the unity to fight as one nation. Regardless of overwhealming man power or equipment, it is alien to them to fight as one. As soon as the going gets tough they desert, and leave their allies in the shit. This is in comparison to say the British, Americans, or indeed Israelis, who usually have a clear idea of what they are fighting for and a certain national unity because of that. This is one of the reasons why in every attempt to "Drive Israel into the sea" they have always failed. The Arabs themselves are painfully aware of this fact, and unlike us they have little faith in the prowess of their military forces. Because of this they see terrorism as the only way to win a fight against a western power.....including Israel. They are not the first to think this way, the Irish did it against the British, the French and Dutch against the Germans, and even Israel themselves used terrorism against the British to get what they wanted. When you lack the miltary power to defeat the enemy in a conventional way, the only option is to use guerrilla/terror tactics.

The only way to defeat a terrorist is to hunt him down and kill him. If you drop a bomb on his village you may kill him, but you will also create ten more people that hate you and will be happy to take his place in the line. Come on, how many villages did you guys bomb in Vietnam in order to crush the VC? And it still didn't work!!

Beth

[dave_the_baby]

I can't see any solution likely to bring a ceasefire to these two sets of awful people. Perhaps we could spray the whole area with norovirus so they have something else to do apart from fighting each other.

That is a great idea!

But it won't be attractive unless we DISGUISE it as something evil!

Like we get some dude to pose as an Islam Spy, and he goes to Iran and gives them this virus that's supposed to make them stronger...

But then it makes them understand what they're doing.

That...is a BRILLIANT idea, freswith. Kudos to you!

Now, where's our happy scientists?

[underwhere]

I received this via e-mail today. If you have an opinion, please express it. Obviously, I hope you express it in favor of Israel, but even if not, let the world hear what you think.

[Baby Bethany]

I received this via e-mail today. If you have an opinion, please express it. Obviously, I hope you express it in favor of Israel, but even if not, let the world hear what you think.

I don't support either, they are both has bad as each other.

During the foundation of the state of Israel, the founders agreed that the Arab people living in Palestine would recieve equal rights under the new state. However this has never been the case, they are treated like second class citizens and have been since 1949. In defence of the Jews however, huge chunks of the land were purchased in fair deals, from the Arabs, by various Zionist groups in the early 20th century. So some Arab people demanding exclusive use of that land is a bit like me claiming ownership of your farm on the basis that my grandfather owned it 80 years ago, before he sold it to your grandfather!

From my own experience in that part of the world I can only say that the average Arab or Jew wants to live in peace. Like us, they want to go to work, pick their kids up from school, and watch tv. They don't hate each other, and they don't want to kill or be killed. Groups like Hamas are extremists who survive by preaching tales of Jewish or Western hatred to an uneducated, weak minded, or hate filled minority. By killing innocent Arab people, Israel is doing their recruitment for them.

There will only be peace when the extremists of both countries are stamped out, and the majority are allowed to live in peace.

The rest of us should stop taking sides, as neither are deserving of our support. We should however make it clear that the actions of both are unacceptable in the 21st century.

Beth

[Alan M.]

I realize these are old posts, but I thought the topic was just as important for today as well.

It always amazes me how quickly people will jump to condemn Israel. I would implore you to come and visit and see for yourself what is really going on. More than 5,000 rockets landed in residential areas within Israel before we responded. We begged the international community to speak up and condemn the attacks against our citizens and barely a word was spoken. When we did respond we sent surgical strikes to target the terrorists and avoid civilian casualties. Before any strike was sent, tens of thousands of phone calls and SMSes were sent out to warn all citizens in the area to vacate immediately. In addition, millions of flyers were dropped on the area that was going to be bombed, begging civilians to vacate the premises. Unfortunately, chamas has a tendency to use civilians as shields, behind which they can launch their strikes.

But what choice did Israel have in the matter? None of you can imagine what it is like to live in a populated city and to know that at any point during the day a siren will go off and you will have 15 seconds to get in a bomb shelter with your family. WE HELD BACK AS 5,000 SIRENS WENT OFF. Rockets hit kindergardens, malls, and other populated areas. Our citizens were under attack and it had to stop.

Despite the legitimate anger we had every right to feel, we did everything in our power to reduce civilian casualties. Did we always succeed? Of course not. However, as Cl. Richard Kemp said, "Never in the history of warfare has a country taken so many measures to reduce civilian casualties as Israel has." Watch the video... it is MORE than worthwhile: http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=7536409

Don't cast down Israel in the same pit as Chamas. Try to differentiate between the terrorist and his victim. We put a value on life, including those who attack us. If you don't believe that then go ahead and see for yourself. Find the most right wing, extremist Israeli and ask their opinion on civilian casualties in the Gaza War. I guarantee you, the worst you will hear is regret. Probably along the lines of the unfortunate loss of innocent life.

Now go to the other side and ask their opinion about the suicide bomber who hid amongst baby carriages outside a market. Ask them about the sniper who shot one bullet when his sites were aimed on a six month old baby. Ask them about the terrorist that enterred an Israeli household and started in the kid's room, putting his first bullet in the head of a three year old child who was asleep. They glorify the killer. They mark them as a martyr and hold them up as a shining example. They throw parades after EVERY suicide bombing and hand out candy and sing about the deaths of their enemies. I know this personally as I saw it firsthand after 9/11. When we heard, our entire school shut down so we could all gather together and cry out in prayer. In Ramallah, East Jerusalem, and Gaza, over 50,000 palistinians took to the streets to rejoice. Their parties went well into the night.

Yet throughout all of this we will always hold back and still try and reduce civilian casualties. We do this because, at the end of the day, we will always value life. And no matter how much crap you all continue to give us, we will always do so in the future as well.

<!--quoteo(post=176672:date=Jan 13 2009, 01:40 AM:name=underwhere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (underwhere @ Jan 13 2009, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=176672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I received <a href="http://www.israel-vs-palestine.com/gz/" target="_blank">this via e-mail today</a>. If you have an opinion, please express it. Obviously, I hope you express it in favor of Israel, but even if not, let the world hear what you think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't support either, they are both has bad as each other.

During the foundation of the state of Israel, the founders agreed that the Arab people living in Palestine would recieve equal rights under the new state. However this has never been the case, they are treated like second class citizens and have been since 1949. In defence of the Jews however, huge chunks of the land were purchased in fair deals, from the Arabs, by various Zionist groups in the early 20th century. So some Arab people demanding exclusive use of that land is a bit like me claiming ownership of your farm on the basis that my grandfather owned it 80 years ago, before he sold it to your grandfather!

From my own experience in that part of the world I can only say that the average Arab or Jew wants to live in peace. Like us, they want to go to work, pick their kids up from school, and watch tv. They don't hate each other, and they don't want to kill or be killed. Groups like Hamas are extremists who survive by preaching tales of Jewish or Western hatred to an uneducated, weak minded, or hate filled minority. By killing innocent Arab people, Israel is doing their recruitment for them.

There will only be peace when the extremists of both countries are stamped out, and the majority are allowed to live in peace.

The rest of us should stop taking sides, as neither are deserving of our support. We should however make it clear that the actions of both are unacceptable in the 21st century.

Beth