Ascension

[Daphne Sissy]

Yes I do, the astral plane.

It's the one thing that is going to change the future, to me no god can ever do that. As I discussed today, I am not an atheist. And there is one simple reason for this, I don't deny any bodies god. I simply don't believe in him/her.

I enjoy talking to other people about there relgion, after all life is always about learning. You never stop learning, that is the basic function of not the answer to life.

Should I one day find myself confronted by a god/goddess, I shall simply say the reason to life for me was to leran and understand.

To expand on my previous comment, I don't think relgion is a bad thing. I just think we'd all get further in life if we accepted everyones beliefs, something I admit I have trouble doing, But I am willing to listen.

Where as already starting again, I have already attracted one simple if not critical remark. Please remember this is my belief, I'm not saying it should be yours. What I am saying is it's nice to learn.

I think if we all try to understand, we may get further together than we do apart.

[DollyDiaper]

Reasoned debates do not exist with faith.

Well hey-ho, there's always a pedant with a one-liner to pull a post apart.

(I take it my spelling and grammar were ok then?)

I think you know what I was trying to say.

[DollyDiaper]

Not trying to "pull you apart" from anything. By all means...hug a grenade if you wish. I'm trying to get this image of the plane in my head....with dragons guarding it. It is dragons right? And...what are they guarding it from? Can they breathe fire? Tell me this thread is a joke...and I didn't read the punch line in a post or two.

As I didn't start this thread, I haven't a clue whether it was a joke or not (I suspect not) but I'm endlessly curious about what makes human beings tick - ok, make that nosey - including what I regard as people's superstitions.

That's all. I didn't say I believed in anything I'd read on this thread. Sorry if I sounded snappy but I guess you caught me on a bad day - I'm not a dragon, I'm only human

Dolly

[Guest VladYvhv]

My beliefs may be a bit hard to sort out, so's I'll get to them after answering the questions...

Do I believe in God? Yes, very much so, in both the traditional Christian view and in the vew of the Creeks and other tribes who believe in the same God with different names... While I believe in referring to God as a He, I'd be willing to admit that that's a bit narrow-minded, as are other assumtions about the ultimate being in all of existance... I think it's impossible for any of us to fully understand the nature of God while we're alive... So, we just hafta try and do our best... One key thing that I think many people forget is that God gave us free will, thus giving us control of our own lives and whatnot. God may help us if we ask, or occasionally throw us something to try and teach us a lesson, but it's up to us to make it work or learn. I don't think any one religion holds all the truthes or answeres, or even that all combined, that humanity will ever know all of the truthes or answers, as long as we're alive... In the end, it's between us and [Him? Her? It?] when we die... So, don't let my ramblings get in the way of yer beliefs. That's not my intention. I just felt the need to share what I believe, in case it might be helpful.

Do I believe in Magic? I'll follow Webster's dictionary's definition of Magic. 1: No. I don't believe that humans can preform magic. 2: Yeah, somewhat. I believe that this covers the powers of beings such as angels... I believe that angels exist, in many, many forms and can help us. This leads to my belief that such beings as the Animal People, spirit guides, and protectors in Native American beliefs and lore are really angels, serving God's will and appearing in forms that would tend to not be frightening to those they come into contact with (please note that in the Bible, the appearances of some angels tended to frighten people). While I aso believe that Satan and his demons also exist and have some power, I'm of a strong belief that they can only harm you if you let them... 3: Well, that's obvious... Of corse there's illusion and trickery... Without it, humanity would've died of boredom a long time ago...

Also, I don't lump psionics in with magic, as it should be classified as a biological factor, ruther than something external. The main problem that I see with it, though, is that there're so many theories and "experts" who're so sure that their explinations and theories're the right ones, that it's impossible to diferentiate between what could be fact and what's just being made up. Same goes for the various experiments to confrim/deny them... I think there's at least a possiblity that psionics exist in some form or another... Probly nowhere near the level seen in fiction, though.

As with my religious beliefs, don't let my musings get in the way of y'all's beliefs on the subjects...

Oh... And I'm not a dragon, either... Although, I could be confused with a lycanthrope...

[PeeHD]

So I ask the questions again

Do you beleive in magik?

Do you believe in a god/goddess?

Wow, this was an interesting thread!

To start with, I appologise for not having any knowledge of the various beliefs discussed, so I hope that I don't offend anybody by just answering the original question.

No, I'm really not religious in any sense. However, I do find it very interesting to read about other peoples belief systems, and I do not wish to deny or remove anybody elses belief. Inasmuch as these things don't exist in my point of veiw, I only rarely discuss these things with people who have religious (or magical, to make that distinction) beliefs simply because I don't want to risk anybody losing, or starting to doubt, their faith (which will make nobody happy) - I need to ensure that the person is a very firm believer before I get myself into that kind of discussion.

As I am very ignorant about this, I sincerely hope that I don't offend anybody by asking such a naive question, but as far as I could tell, the fundamental difference between the belief in magic and the belief in gods is that with magic the practising person is actively altering the surrounding through her own mind, whereas with belief in gods, or a god, the person is only passivly altering the surrounding by communicating with an entity that has the ability to perform the given actions. Would that be somewhat close to the correct answer, or am I totally out in the blue here..?

Again, I hope I have not offended anybody by getting in to this discussion with such a vast ignorance about these things, but if that is the case, I sincerely appologise, and I'd be happy to have the post removed.

take care

/doc

[WallaWalla]

I can respect everybody's right to hold their own set of beliefs, but as a religion, I think wicca is pretty silly. I fancy myself a hermeticist, so it's not that I'm shut out to esoteric belief systems, but rather that I think wicca is kind of new agey and watered down.

[restlessfox]

here's my beliefs on it, it's not an attack on anyone in any way and if you perceive it to be in any way just pm me and we'll talk about it.

Do you beleive in magik? yeah i do but i think too many books,video games, and people have distorted it and made it out to be something completely different from what it really is.

Do you believe in a god/goddess? yeah i do believe somethings out there but i also believe it would be extremely arrogant for me to try to give it a name or try to claim to understand it. i just give thanks and praise is a fation reminiscent of the Rastafarian religion and send it out to whichever/ whatever/ whoever/ wherever/ whenever deity/ god/ goddess/ spirit/ totem/ force ect. that deserves it and wants to listen.

on the topic of magic being light and dark it's all in your head. this is my belief on it. good and evil is a product of the imagination of intelligent creatures, every action has an affect, it's the judgment of those intelligent creatures that says if the result was a good thing or a bad thing. it's a natural thing that loose snow on a mountain can slide, it's the intelligent creatures observing it that give it the name avalanche and call it a bad thing.

it seems to be the general consensus that magic is a primal energy that can be harnessed to do various things so it's my belief that since you have to mentally know what to do with that primal energy to harness it that magics are tied in with psychic abilities.

with a matter spell/telekenisis you can make something float, it's up to you if you make it slam into someone or repair something.

with a enchantment spell/telepathy you can make someone do something, see something, believe something, it's up to you what that something is

the way i've seen it with wiccan magics you call on an intelligence like a deity or the spirit of nature/the planet to do something for you like manipulate these primal forces i've been talking about or affect another person for you. then to thank that intelligence for the services rendered you kiss the proportional amount of proverbial bum to make up for it so what i infer from that is magic is still just energy to be harnessed, it's the deities and the people who perceive it to be a good affect or bad effect.

~am i the only one that missed this extraordinary magical event in 2006 caused by the merging of the astral plane that daphne sissy was describing? if so can someone please post the link of the video or news story about it. i would hate to have missed out on it.

[diapercj]

Here is my thought on it, this post was started in '05. its '07 now and there are no dragons or magick that have been reinstated. I think the starter of this post was mislead.

CJ

[luvs]

Maybe someone has been watching to much Stargate SG1.

[restlessfox]

Here is my thought on it, this post was started in '05. its '07 now and there are no dragons or magick that have been reinstated. I think the starter of this post was mislead.

CJ

i really hope he didn't get that prediction from the same source that foretold that this generation won't whitness the end of the world...

[DL Dave]

~am i the only one that missed this extraordinary magical event in 2006 caused by the merging of the astral plane that daphne sissy was describing? if so can someone please post the link of the video or news story about it. i would hate to have missed out on it.

Nope I missed it too.

[DL Dave]

On a slightly more serious note, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

First I'll say I'm a Christian, more specificaly a mormon. We have several standards, and guidelines set out for us to follow, and learn from. There is a list of 13 belifes that basicly say what we are about. The one most relavent to this thread is number 11:

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Although I belive my faith to be correct and true, I don't think I have the right to shove it in your face in a moraly superior fashion. It's not for me too say you are evil because of your faith, or lack of a faith. Another core belief is that faith with out works is dead. Or in more simple terms you will be judged on what you do and why you do it. If you build houses for the homeless, and do it for the right reasons, then it realy dosn't matter what religion you are. At the same time if you hurt children and animals intentionaly, it also dosn't matter which religion you are.

What am I trying to say here? I don't think I'm better than anyone elts, I do think that there is good and evil, same as there is right and wrong. Most religions that I am awear of however are not evil in nature. (yes I know there is saintanisum, and other sub groups that do focus on evil) That donsn't mean I think they are right.

Either my faith is right or it's not, it can't be both. I belive my church is "His" true church, and that the teachings are "His". That said all other churchs and faiths must be wrong. Not to say they arn't close or well intentioned, but still wrong. I don't mean to be condecending when I say that. I have a personal testimony of the truthfullness of my faith. That means I know it is true. There is no way for me to prove it is true, just as you can't dissprove it. For me it was a matter of prayer and faith. There were a series of events and experiences that allowed me this insite. I won't go into them here though. I'm glad for my faith, and it's teachings, they enrich my life, and influence me for the better.

[Dill_Pickle]

On a slightly more serious note, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

First I'll say I'm a Christian, more specificaly a mormon. We have several standards, and guidelines set out for us to follow, and learn from. There is a list of 13 belifes that basicly say what we are about. The one most relavent to this thread is number 11:

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Although I belive my faith to be correct and true, I don't think I have the right to shove it in your face in a moraly superior fashion. It's not for me too say you are evil because of your faith, or lack of a faith.

(snip)

That said all other churchs and faiths must be wrong. Not to say they arn't close or well intentioned, but still wrong. I don't mean to be condecending when I say that.

Uhh, saying you HAVE the truth, the ONE truth, is INHERENTLY condescending....and disallows others (especially women) the privelege of worshiping what we may....

Belief #11, in the light of your claim that all other churches and faiths must be wrong, is a paradox. Especially when the Jesus of the new testament used by many christian churches does nothing and says nothing against those who do not worship him. Instead, he offers his followers something which is supposed to be positive: eternal life. He also says that he will judge who was faithful by the fruits of their labors..

By the way, I never tell the truth.

Truth is only a direction, not an absolute. Beware those who claim to have the truth. Follow those who seek the truth.

********************

(Back to the basic question: Do I believe in god or magic?)

Magic: I practice it, daily....in a very concrete sense: I write computer programs that others around me find totally impossible.

God: The question is outside of science, because whatever makes the rules is outside of the rules. Besides, any self-respecting all powerful god re-creates a new world each week, poplulating it with people whose brains are just as if they are as old as they say they are and live in a world which is just as if it has been here for a few billion years. The science all checks perfectly inside the world, but the world wasn't there last week.

Also, when thinking about any god which might exist, consider that human intelligence, although we have a difficult time measuring it, is a finite quantity. Assume a god with significantly more intelligence than ourselves. Would we recognize it? I'm very doubtful -- my motivation is the example of an ant trying to understand the seemingly random things the human beings near it are doing. Would it care about us specifically? How many of you care about even one specific ant, except to step on it or otherwise kill it?

Is there good and evil? The longer-term the perspective, the more difficult good and evil become to distinguish. For example: the detonation of the atom bomb killed several hundred thousand japanese in world war II. That was evil. However, if you are in the US, it probably saved many more lives of US soldiers not killed in the invasion of Japan. It has been 70 years since a nuclear weapon has been detonated in battle. That is a good thing. But not being able to use nuclear weapons has spurred the development of some truly evil chemical weapons -- such as the uranium bullet. That is an evil thing. I can go on and on, each step reversing whether I find good or evil...and all from that atom bomb.

I prefer the buddhist take on it: Suffering is the thing that should be eliminated.