A Question Of Ethics

[babyfur]

This maybe the wrong place for this but I could really use some other opinions. Right now I'm trying to help my twin brother fix his life. his problem is he's an ungreteful asshole who managed to get kicked out of our parents house because of his mouth. After he showed up on my doorstep and I told him to put an egg in his shoe and beat it, I started feeling guilty and with the agreement of all of my housemates I'm allowing him to stay but I'm trying to teach him somethings. I'm trying to teach him to be grateful but he's too proud so he's now the house slave in order to teach him humility. The problem is nothings working, I have to completely break him psychologically before I can teach him.

What the hell does this have to do with diapers? Well I'm starting to wonder if forcing him to wear diapers might not be such a bad idea in as far as it would(theoretically) help undermine him psychologically. When I allowed him to stay he signed a contract saying that he would do as ordered by any of the rest of the housemates, any conflicts would be resolved by me. The contract says that the agreement can be terminated at will if he decides to leave fine, if the house decides we want him to leave he has to leave, but the catch(at least for him) is that he has nowhere else to go, his job doesn't pay enought o get an apartment, our parents have agreed to let me try to teach him and they will not let him back home, and none of his friends will allow him to stay with them.

NOTE: He does NOT know that I'm an AB and I only wear diapers around him for medical reasons.

The question of ethics is: Would forcing him to wear diapers in this situation be a tool or would I be forcing him to go along with my fetish? and ethically would it be wrong to do that to him? Any and all thoughts appreciated

[Topguy]

Forcing submission under duress is wrong.

[babyfur]

True, but when he signed his name, he knew that he was going to be getting a lesson in humility. He'd already spent one night under a bridge and rather than swallowing his pride, going home and just apologizing for his behavior he came back to me because he knows how to manipulate me. He thought I'd be easy on him since I was his bi**h for years but I turned on him. The contract he signed said that he would follow all orders, and that I would use any and all means necessary short of physical force to teach him. It's an at-will contract meaning that he or the house as a whole can terminate the agreement at anytime. I told him that by signing his name he was signing his life over to me and I told him to read through it. All he cared about was that he'd be able to save face.

[DiaperBoyKR]

I still have to agree with TopGuy. Even if there is a signed contract in place, that kind of forced submission is wrong. It wont really teach him anything either. The concept sounds good in stories and such, but in reality, it would be more likely to destroy him completely than achieve the desired result. Engaging in that kind of training/counseling/whatever you want to call it without the proper training is dangerous to all involved.

I agree that your brother may need a lesson in humility, but this is not the way to go about it.

[babyfur]

point made. I think I'll stick with my earlier plan of sleep deprivation. Four days awake then you let him sleep for 5 minutes and wake him up again. At that point the subject is(temporarily) psychologically broken, however they recover soon and are easily taught new ways of thinking and behaving. He's lost the blankets I gave him for his bed though, last time the son of a gun spits in my face.

[justindiapers]

It's an incredibly dumb idea. You're trying to teach him humility through shame. If he was a kid, putting him into diapers to do that would be considered child abuse. That he is an adult doesn't make it any better, especially since you're not a psychologist.

Beyond that, it sounds to me like you're more after revenge than anything else.

[diaperwearntigger]

What you are doing, I believe is wrong. I don't see how any of this will help your brother, if anything, I think it will only make him worse. I have heard of tough love, but I don't think that is what is meant by that. I would think at 18, you and your brother have a lot of growing up to do and this is definitely a sign that you need to grow up a little. It is your parents problem, not yours. If they chose to kick him out of the house, then that is their problem and their guilt, as well as their right to do so. However, I don't believe it is your right, as an equal, to do this psychological bullshit on him. Do you have a degree in psychology? I highly doubt that. And what exactly are you trying to accomplish by breaking him down like you said you are doing......do you really think he will come back and say thank you? or do you think he will only resent you? There are many other ways of making a person to feel humility, to me it sounds like you are making him feel embarrassement.... I'm not sure what makes you think you are better than your brother, but from what I have read you don't sound all that great yourself.

Like everyone in the world, we have to make mistakes.... that is the only way that you can learn. Maybe having him live on his own, instead of taking him in and abusing him like you are, is what he really needs. Maybe instead of taking the problems into your own hands, you should help him see a therapist.... if he is not the person you want him to be, is that your problem? Not really.

I hate to play the age card, but give me a break. I don't know too many 18 yr olds that are very humble, nor that appreciative....and that again goes back on the reflection of the parents.....The way today's society is..... and I'm a teacher...... your brother is no different than the next person....

I just had a 1st grader suspended because she swore out the principal...and used words that even the principal wouldn't repeat.... sooooooooooooooo...

Love your brother instead of trying to play God and fix him when maybe it is you that needs fixing.

[Pipsqueak]

I agree with Tigger's post.

People don't change their behaviour unless they make a conscious choice too. And even then, it's hard. Your brother's behaviour is his problem to change or not to change. Love him but don't buy into his games and don't try to change him, because none of us can change someone else. That's something we do for ourselves.

[petalmani]

Wrote something in here but decided to delete it.

[Torgen]

If he got in trouble with his mouth, I could see you sticking a pacifier in there. There's no way diapers are an appropriate response based on what you've told us.

[belinda_sue_fox]

Sooooo, when are you and your family on Jerry Springer? You sound perfect for such shows

[Baby Bethany]

Don't agree with you on this one Babyfur.

First off, I don't believe this is true, sorry. If it is true you are basicly being a bully, whether it's with diapers or sleep deprivation. Forcing another person to do something against their will is wrong, and trying to make them do it simply because you have a form of power over them is just being an asshole. It will gain you nothing but hate from your brother, and who knows you may need a favour from him someday. So if it is true, stop showing off in front of your friends, tear up that stupid contract, and give your brother some support.

If I was your twin I would go and sleep on the street.

Beth

[DiaperBoyKR]

Don't agree with you on this one Babyfur.

First off, I don't believe this is true, sorry. If it is true you are basicly being a bully, whether it's with diapers or sleep deprivation. Forcing another person to do something against their will is wrong, and trying to make them do it simply because you have a form of power over them is just being an asshole. It will gain you nothing but hate from your brother, and who knows you may need a favour from him someday. So if it is true, stop showing off in front of your friends, tear up that stupid contract, and give your brother some support.

If I was your twin I would go and sleep on the street.

Beth

Agreed Beth.

Babyfur, all you will suceed in doing if you carry through with this plan, whether the diapers or the sleep deprivation, will be to severely damage your brother mentally/emotionally or to make him hate your guts before the end. I think the contract may not be an incredibly horrible idea, otherwise he will definitely take advantage of you, but I wouldnt take advantage of it in order to break him. Sleep deprivation is torture. Period. Its was a method used to get around drug conditioning by interrogators in World War II. You are absolutely right, it will break a person and relatively quickly at that, but unless you are a trained psychologist, it will be ridiculously hard to put the pieces back together in anything resembling a good picture.

What I would suggest is this. Remind him that he signed a contract, and the purpose of it is to live to learn with others. If he cant learn to do that, then he has to leave. Give him 3 strikes, and stick to it. Once he hits that 3rd strike, he has to leave. Thats real tough love, and as much as it may hurt to see your brother out in the cold, that may be the only option you have if he doesnt learn to adjust his behaviour.

Abuse will never help a person be a better person. It will either make them worse, or it will break them completely.

[Necare]

You can`t be for real?!! It`s your brother and you are talking about humiliating him in diapers? Who will have the greatest "benefit" of that, I wonder? Your brother, or you? And not to talk about sleep deprivation!!! You are not psychological trained, and you want to screw even more with a mind that is probably quite fragile and tattered by now? Yes, as somebody else said here, sleep deprivation is pure torture, and I cant believe you want your kin to go through that. If he has problems and issues now, give him a month of a sleep deprivation routine, and see what an absolutely healthy individual emerges. What will be next? Complete isolation in a pitch black room for two weeks, or perhaps waterboarding? Your options are limitless really. No, seriously, you have got to see the absolute madness in this, and do the following. Give him as much loving support you can, and get an appointment with a psychologist, pronto. Come to think of it, have your parents completely given up on him, it should first and foremost be their responsibility to put him back on his feet. Sleep deprivation?!!! Unbelievable.

[PampersPete]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate on this one...I learned ALOT about humor,humility,humbleness,etc,etc in prison. I don't know about the exact situation,Babyfur,because you don't explain much. I will say however that diapers as a forced form of humility isn't such a bad idea. After reading most of the previous comments,I noticed ALOT of"Victim Mentality" in them. You guys know who you are. If there's one thing in life that truly pisses me off,it's the"poor,poor me"attitude America is achieving. I'll give you an example: I started my current job at Shell on January 2nd. On January 4th I met "Max"and his mother"Pat". They live in their car. ALOT of people might go"How sad". Don't feel sad for Max or his mother. She worked for the USPS for years and because of something that happened,took a year of medical leave. She was recieving checks for $1,200.00 every 2 weeks. You do the math. The checks stopped coming about 5 weeks ago. They were making $2,400.00 a month and instead of doing the right thing(Get an apartment,jobs,etc,etc,)they LIVED IN THEIR FUCKING CAR! On top of it,he's a tweaker and she's too ignorant to know it. I've even heard stories that she's afraid of him for fear of physical abuse. Last night the fucking guy camped out with his computer hooked up between my ice cooler and my propane storage shelves in the rain. He wants his mother to go look for work so he can quit stealing food from the gas station and begging from strangers. I refuse to get involved. Me and Max would end up fighting in the car wash,I'd get fired and lose my job,my place to stay,etc,etc. As for the car,it doesn't run anymore. They owe about $3,000.00 to the lender. The property manager kicked them out of the parking lot of the mall across the street from Shell. Now they"live" one street over near my house. I get the joy of seeing Max and his mother shuffle along every evening when I wake up and go out to my deck for a cigarette.Did I tell you guys that I lost the house I bought while working at Slaveway last October during the wildfires? I went from training spoiled,rich kids how to be humble for $28.00 an hour to cleaning toilets and stocking coolers for $8.25 an hour from 10:00pm to 11:00pm,$8.75 an hour from 11:00pm to 5:00am and back to $8.25 an hour from 5:00am till I get off.

Babyfur putting his twin back in diapers,wether it be for toughlove or revenge,may be the best thing for the guy. "What we have here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach....so you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it...WELL,he's gonna get it......"

[Guest]

I dunno... this whole thing sounds messed up

[babyfur]

Too be honest I'm not even sure what I was thinking. He used to have me dump girls for him so he didn't have to feel so bad. And if there was an angry brother who was ready to beat the living daylights out out of him I would help defend him. One time I didn't defend him I let the other guy beat the hell out of him and I only jumped in to save him when the other guy would not stop beating on him. We(my brother and I) ended up in the hospital, he had a concussion and I had multiple broken bones. You know what the first thing he said to me was? "Next time get in there and help me dickshit."(sorry about the language but thats verbatim literatim Not "are you ok" not "thanks for saving my ass" the only thing he was concerned about was that next time he pulled this crap that I help him fight.

I'd thought the beating would teach him a lesson but no, everything he does, everything he says, is only concerned about him not anyone else to him people are something you get something from and they better give it to him because he is God incarnate. He got thrown out for saying such things as "It's like living in a f***ing mental hospital living with you people"(a lot of the people in our family suffer from depression and he's one of the ones who doesn't) and "I've asked God repeatedly to either kill all of you or kill me, it doesn't make much difference either way." My parents have tried since the day we were born to teach us to be grateful for what we have but it only stuck with me.

I know now it sounds like I'm revenge motivated, but I'm not. I love him and he's seen what his attitude gets him: alone or getting the crap beat out of you but he hasn't learned. He thinks that everyone should be glad to do things for him, he doesn't understand that you only get things in this world because people either respect you or they love and care about you. He thinks humility is beneath him and I want to tech him it's not. I'm afraid that he's going to get killed someday because of his attitude and I don't want to see that happen. I'm frustrated and desperate to try and correct him by any means necessary. *sighs* I just don't know what to do.

[diamondback6881]

Dude. If you're not careful you're going to get arrested. I'm pretty sure that can be construed as abuse of some kind. Using diapers is by far the dumbest idea I've ever heard. As for the sleep deprivation, it was used on our POWs in the Vietnam War by the Viet Cong. According to what I pulled up online, sleep deprivation has effects on memory, learning, and the ability to think clearly. Basically, I'm saying don't do it.

[diapergirl80]

Is this even real? I have a reeeeeally hard time believing we're not being bs-ed here.

[diaperchick]

I think he would be better off in a homeless shelter than being tortured by his own brother. It's completely twisted to try to force submission on another human. You are not talking about some innocent fun or a fetish here. I think you will end up being arrested.

[DiaperBoyKR]

Babyfur, I hate to sound cold on this, but if your brother isnt willing to learn, there isnt a whole lot that you can do about it.

He's going to need to learn a hard lesson, but its very probably that he WON'T be able to learn it from you. It would help if he could learn it from a family member or someone that loves him, but its going to take a serious shock to his system before he will be willing to take that step. In any sucessful program of change, the desire to change has to be present in the individual.

Please do not take my notes above as simple condemnation of your plan or your desire to help your brother. I understand WHY you want to do this completely. I understand that you want to do this out of love for him. From what youve told us, I think he probably needs some kind of rough lesson. However, the question will be how will it affect YOU putting your own flesh and blood through the wringer like that? Like I said before, all of that can be torture through and through, and it would be painful to you to put your brother through that.

Sometimes though, the best thing we can do for our loved ones when they arent willing to let us help them is to let them go. They have to make their own mistakes and pay the prices for their decisions. Thats they only way they may learn.

Other than that, offer him as much support as you can without being a crutch to him, and encourage him to get help. Thats the best advice i can offer at this point.

[sarah_ab]

You sound entirely motivated by revenge. If you didn't want revenge then you wouldn't have had your brother sign a contract that makes him feel as if he has to obey your every demand, and then exploit that by demanding outrageous things, and subjecting him to torture and abuse. Thats not love, thats revenge, however you want to say it.

Tough love is not subjecting someone to sleep deprivation or other abuses. Tough love is saying "sorry bro, you are on your own." and then NOT letting him live with you, no matter what 'contract' he signed.

As for thinking of putting him in diapers, are you sure you want to involve your brother in a fetish? thats a little well.... call it what you will, but involving a family member in a fetish isn't accepted in many parts of western society.

my suggestion, end it with your brother, telling him in three days he will have to leave, then get youirself into some therapy for your own issues, as you are clearly not over whatever happened between you and your brother years ago.

I wish you the best and hope one day you can mend the relationship with your brother.

[babyfur]

I know it sounds like revenge but to be honest it's frustration, all our lives people have tried to teach him that he's not God and no one owes him anything but nothings worked. At this point I'm willing to try anything if it'll help teach him. There's someone else in our family that has the same attitude as my brother. An uncle, unfortunately who has already lived his life like my brother wants to live his. He live alone, has a hard time holding a steady job and isolates himself from everyone even his family. You know what I'm giving up, he's gone, there's no fucking point in trying to help him. I hate to do it but there's no helping him so, even though it's killing me, I'm kicking his sorry ass out.

[Baby Bethany]

As I said before, I don't think it's real for one second.

Babyfur says his brother "thinks humility is beneath him, and I want to teach him it's not" but then suggests doing it by "breaking him with sleep deprivation" or "shall I force him to wear diapers?" I question who actually needs the lesson in humility here?

I agree your brother sounds like a pain in the arse Babyfur, and yes he may need to visit a psychiatrist. But you're not his keeper, and you are suggesting using the power you have over him by torturing him. Next you'll be suggesting putting bamboo splinters under his finger nails until he agrees to do the washing up.

All of this sounds like a kinky fantasy to me, especialy when you mentioned forcing him into diapers (although I question why a sexual fantasy involves your brother). Either that or it's attention seeking. If by some long shot you are telling the truth and really want to try this stuff, then I seriously think you should make a joint appointment with the shrink.

Beth

[BriGuy]

If you really want to help the fella out use positive re reinforcements to alter his actions. Praise him for a job well done, and he will be more responsible than if you yell at him for being an idiot and doing something wrong. You are not going to change a person, they can only change for themselves if they want to. Your contract isn't worth the paper it is written on and if he wants could sue you in the end, especially if he lives there long enough to be considered a resident, he can. If he spends enough time there and you kick him out without due process; as in providing him the legal time to move, then he can sue you for improper notice to vacate. In California I have to provide 60 day notice for renters to vacate the property. I am in the rental business and squatters end up having more rights then the person who owns the land. At least here in Ca, check your local renter laws. If you try forcing the sap into diapers or anything remotely sexual you can be held liable for sexual abuse and can even be construed as assault. You are not going to break his spirit, slavery died a long time ago and is very frowned upon today.

You are not going to teach the fellow humility, that is a very brash idea. Sounds to me like you are the one who needs some humility my friend. Some people can only learn by the school of hard knocks. A person who think his poop don't stink finds out eventually it does. If he doesn't how does it affect you? I know I have dealt with people like that in my family, sometimes a night out on the streets humbles people, and then sometimes it don't.