Am I Intolerant ? Nearly Had A Bike Accident Yestereve...

[Guest]

And who are you to decide what the social rules are for the neighborhood? As long as the fellow is covering his rear and or sexual organs than he is within the letter of the law. His social obligation has been met.

I agree.

Personally, I like people who harmlessly break "social rules".

When I die, I hope somebody wears outrageously bright clothing to my funeral, particularly if they were goth.

I hope some of my wedding guests gather more attention with their self expression than I could being a bride.

I'd feel more comfortable if my surgeon came in to my room at the hospital with a giant spiked blue mohawk.

I love the people who look at all the little clones of society and say "Fuck that noise!"

The ABs, the goths, the lolitas, the emos, the people who've got their partner by a leash at the store, people with unusual piercings, etc etc etc

These are who I admire, because they step outside of the norm to be themselves, and they do it without hurting anybody.

In most cases, asserting normalcy isn't done without casualties.

So that guy in baby clothes... I'd want to meet him.

I guess I'm a freak for not caring much what society says.

It has a few good rules, like don't rape, don't kill, don't pee in people's food...

But most of it's rules are just oppressive and unnecessary... Don't wear wierd clothes, have a hair color in the natural spectrum, eat with a fork (as opposed to, say, chopsticks in the USA), don't do anything assosiated with childhood... the list goes on.

Do you have any idea how many people would stare if I just drew a hopscotch board and started playing in an unusued corner of a parking lot while I waited for somebody? People might even say rude things. Why? Nobody's life is being interfered with.

I've been questioned cause I eat with chopsticks. Now that's just sad. "You're not Japanese", so? I'm not irish, should I not drink guiness? I'm not mexican, should I not eat beans?

I just think everyone should be free to do as they please so long as they don't harm people.

Sorry, but seeing a 50 year old baby isn't harmful.

[gweg]

I agree.

Personally, I like people who harmlessly break "social rules".

When I die, I hope somebody wears outrageously bright clothing to my funeral, particularly if they were goth.

LOL Gee I can send my oldest boy if he outlasts ya.... he can come in his full silver n black paint along with his black attire and 20 chains...

[gweg]

I just think everyone should be free to do as they please so long as they don't harm people.

Sorry, but seeing a 50 year old baby isn't harmful.

Gee, to think all my neighbors last year saw me out barbequing in the yard in just my diaper n plastic pants... heck the one neighbor is a cop and he didn't say nothing.... oh well... all my neighbors actually know I am in diapers 24/7 and other than a few laughs when they first saw and new I was in em 24, no one cared... But then who would care about an old fart like me running around on my 5 acres of god's country... I don't live in a city so I probably won't even get a chance to meet that guy this discussion is about... Oh well such is my life...

[Aleia]

You're allowed to have negative opinions, even strong ones, and you have the right to voice them. Disliking something or finding it disgusting doesn't make you a bad person--it's your honest emotional reaction to what you see. Acceptance is terribly overrated, especially when it means repressing your feelings and going through life as a passive "yes" machine. That just isn't healthy. I think there's much more to be said for respecting people. It's possible to speak out against a certain type of behavior until your views are inscribed on your tombstone, yet still treat the people who do these things, their actions aside, as your equals.

I am not a cold, blind conformist just because I don't like EVERY type of deviation fron "the norm" (which doesn't even exist--you wouldn't believe the things you don't know about people). My moral system is NOT "do what everyone else is doing"--that's cultural relativism, which is a major enemy to my moral system. People should do what's right, avoid what isn't, and the rest is up to them.

[jenniebear]

lots of strong emotional feelings in this thread...that started with a adult man dressed as an adult baby riding his bike down the street. it seems to me though that a lot more has come into this thread then where it originally started.

Having walked in someone elses shoes may have given any one of us a different perspective ... certainly a lot of defensive emotions have been brought forward because of individuals prior experiences and i can't begin to know how deeply another has felt pain or distress....i certainly do know that when you aren't given the respect you deserve it can hurt a lot

to me though...being "individual" and being "IN YOUR FACE" are in my mind two entirely different things....using myself as an example.........i've certainly worn things throughout my life that gave an impression...or portrayed who or what i identify with.........currently i tend to dress in clothing that shows off my assets...along with slave bells on my ankles along with a leather wrist band that for me signifys my slave lifestyle.... for those not into the bdsm lifestyle it's not blatant ....but it is in all honesty meant to portray my interests to anyone who may understand...i intend for it to carry a message for anyone who can read it...i could certainly go more over the top...i've been places where it was ok to be collared and attached to a leash held by my Daddy....am i comfortable with this collar and leash?...absolutely........do i enjoy wearing it infront of others....most definitely....would i wear it to the grocery store?...no....because it would not be within most peoples realm of understanding....and some may actually find it disturbing.....(heck...many ab/dl's find bdsm practices disturbing ...often because of abuse in their past...to me this isn't what bdsm is about...but in their mind sadism is about abuse and that's how their minds perceive it)...i have no desire to cause anyone discomfort...or to become the topic of a question and answer session between parent and child.......

i feel that every person deserves my respect until they've done something to dis-earn it....society is made up of many many ages and types of people....with just as many levels of comfort and understanding of alternative choices....as long as they are respectful towards me... i can accept that they may or may not understand my choices....

another example of what i'm trying to say is this..........do i swear in real life?...yes...am i comfortable around others who swear?....yes.....................but do i swear around children?....no..........do i swear around elderly?.......no..........do i swear around people whom i don't know at all?.......no............do i swear in a professional setting?.....no..........have these people been subjected to swearing?......yes....in this day and age...i can only assume they have......but i find i have more respect for myself when i give respect to others....

i believe it's only right to respect others feeling desires and beliefs.....because of this i don't use the "f" word just because it's in my nature to drop the "f" bomb into conversation now and then....that's what i mean about respect....what's offensive to some...is not to others.......but i just feel like it's not right to push those things on a person who finds them offensive...

i don't think it's wrong to have your own style or to have a plushie or paci you take comfort in......i've sucked my thumb and held my plushie a time or two on a trip or long drive in the car.....but i do believe everyone has a responsibility to manage their own actions in a way that takes into account the feelings and beliefs of others.....and this holds true in the actions of others taking into account my feelings and beliefs as well.....

are there people who step on others ?....who are disrespectful?....who hurt and offend and do damage to those around them?.....yes......unfortunately..........but again........for me it's not about what others do or don't do........it's about doing what's right and being a good person.......

[Aleia]

Ditto to Jennie.

Don't do things that offend people just to punish them for being offended. That's called being a jerk.

[FretaBWet]

I keep seeing the same theme repeated over and over by multiple people in this thread.

Going out in public with AB clothing on is disrespectful to others in the "community"

What I want to know is who decides what is disrespectful? I too am transgendered like Diapered Witch and have been my whole life. I have been living as my real gender for the last 18 years but it was not always accepted as readily as it is now. Society has evolved during this time. I think it has reached the point of tolerance which is an improvement from good, morale, human beings being physically beaten and in some cases murdered. I hope to see acceptance during my lifetime. I remember when it was illeagal to be gay in this free country of ours. Bars were raided, police who were sworn to serve and protect beat people when arresting them when they were doing nothing but enjoying the company of others like themselvs. This has changed too. Maybe you should consider the reason for the change. It wasn't because one fine day all the "normal" people in society woke up and said we should stop persecuting these individuals. It's because gay people at Stonewall rose up and said fuck you, we're not going to take it anymore. It's because people stood up for who they were and said we're not going to hide in the closet anymore just so you can have your rosey little fantasy of a perfect world. The gay pride movement started from this and look where we are now. The transgender movement recognized the similarity between gays and trans, both in the way they were pushed to stay in the closet and in how they were treated when they stepped out. None of this happened because society gave it to us. It happened because we took it. It's not a perfect world and it's never going to be a perfect world. I can recognize that a majority of the society may not like the way some people feel compelled to live. But I have to stand up for the individuals because being in the majority doesn't make you right. It didn't make it right to own slaves. It didn't make it right to discriminate against gay and transgendered people. It isn't right to treat this person like a piece of crap just because he made you uncomfortable. You can't control other people but you can control how you react. Maybe you should try reacting with surprise followed by tolerance and acceptance. You don't have to be upset by it unless you choose to let it upset you. Then it's really your own fault not the other person's fault.

Hugs,

Freta

[tauschung]

Personally, I like people who harmlessly break "social rules".

When I die, I hope somebody wears outrageously bright clothing to my funeral, particularly if they were goth.

I hope some of my wedding guests gather more attention with their self expression than I could being a bride.

I'd feel more comfortable if my surgeon came in to my room at the hospital with a giant spiked blue mohawk.

I love the people who look at all the little clones of society and say "Fuck that noise!"

Didn't think that I'd be brought up in this thread. Thanks ^.^

[PampersPete]

To quote some lyrics from the awesome band Suicidal Tendencies.....

"...Oh,what's that?

So how you say life sucks

Well,ninety-nine percent of it's

What you make of it...

So if your life sucks,you suck..."

Taken from"Gotta Kill Captain Stupid"

And

"Just 'cause you don't understand what's goin' on don't mean it don't make no sense

And just 'cause you don't like it,don't mean it ain't no good

And let me tell you something...

Before you take a walk in my world

Take a look at the real world

'Cause this ain't no Mr.Rogers Neighborhood.

Can you say"feel like shit"?

Yea,maybe sometimes I do feel like shit

I ain't happy about it,but I'd rather feel like shit than be full of shit!

And if I offended you,I'm sorry...But maybe you need to be offended

But here's my apology and one more thing...FUCK YOU!

'Cause you can't bring me down!!!!!"

Taken from"You Can't Bring Me Down"

[Guest]

It wasn't because one fine day all the "normal" people in society woke up and said we should stop persecuting these individuals. It's because gay people at Stonewall rose up and said fuck you, we're not going to take it anymore. It's because people stood up for who they were and said we're not going to hide in the closet anymore just so you can have your rosey little fantasy of a perfect world. The gay pride movement started from this and look where we are now. The transgender movement recognized the similarity between gays and trans, both in the way they were pushed to stay in the closet and in how they were treated when they stepped out. None of this happened because society gave it to us. It happened because we took it. It's not a perfect world and it's never going to be a perfect world. I can recognize that a majority of the society may not like the way some people feel compelled to live. But I have to stand up for the individuals because being in the majority doesn't make you right. It didn't make it right to own slaves. It didn't make it right to discriminate against gay and transgendered people. It isn't right to treat this person like a piece of crap just because he made you uncomfortable. You can't control other people but you can control how you react. Maybe you should try reacting with surprise followed by tolerance and acceptance. You don't have to be upset by it unless you choose to let it upset you. Then it's really your own fault not the other person's fault.

Hugs,

Freta

Accepting people for whatever harmless oddities they have or do is something that being trans allowed me to understand.

It wasn't till I came out and was told to "Dress that way at home" and "don't be like that in public" that I gained a whole new perspective on things. It's why there's a post about changing how I feel about the individuals who want to become incontinent. I looked at them the same way "normal" people sometimes look at me... "Why would anyone want to DO that to themselves?"

It's why I am so adamant about allowing people to do whatever it is they need to do to be happy and whole, so long as they don't harm others in the process. (Obviously, we can't let pedos be happy molesting children. That causes harm to others.)

My sister is into pirate stuff. I'm in to baby stuff.

If she walks down the street in a pirate themed bikini, y'all won't say a word. If I were to have my diaper showing, I'd be linched, probably by members of DD.

Society seems to let SOME be themselves, and shoves others back in to the closet.

Well, I'm one of those who isn't going to change to make the world comfy.

In theory, I could put Floppy and the pacifier away, get a nice set of boxers, and get my jeans and ratty t-shirt out, wipe the make-up off, cut my hair, stop any hormone therapy, worship Jesus, and listen to pop music. Oh, and of course, make sure to sleep with only the "opposite sex". Those around me would be oh so comfortable, not a care in the world regarding me. But how would I feel? I can't understand why anyone would want me to do this to myself. I can tell you how I'd feel, because I've already been there... I'd be miserable, and eventually dead at my own hands.

I don't feel my happiest sitting in somewhere without my wolf. I am not most comfortable being of the potty trained persuasion. I certainly don't feel right in my birth sex. The list continues. My pacifier makes me feel better, and sometimes I need to feel better away from home. I don't feel pretty when I don't dress a little childishly, I love my mary janes and kitty earrings, they help me feel more complete and reflect who I feel I am.

Now what if I only did all this at home? Well, now I'd feel complete... completely lonely.

Nobody should be forced to stay home just because they're weird or different.

This is why I take myself, all of myself, out to wherever I want to go. This is why I don't care what the world thinks of what I am. It's not that I'm so selfish that I wish everyone around me miserable, it's that I'm just not so generous as to give all my happiness away to make everyone else feel alright - especially when all they'd have to do to feel alright is just accept that everyone is different and some of us are "freaks". My apologies for not being so infinitely generous. Sorry, I don't feel the least bit guilty about my level of generosity. I give of myself constantly.

I am me.

I'm a girl, regardless of what body I was born in.

I'm an adult/baby mix, sometimes less adult than others. Sometimes I need my pacifier, often times I'm upset when separated from my wolf for very long.

But more importantly, I'm kind, compassionate, courteous to nice people, gentle, fun (when I'm not depressed), and willing to help others when I am capable. I treat others as they wish to be treated to the best of my ability, and I expect the same from them.

If all that makes me "disrespectful", then I give up.

I know I'm respectful to others. I go out of my way at times.

I shut my cell off in quiet places.

I keep clean, so others don't have to smell me (besides, smelling bad is not part of who I am).

I don't cut in line, even when I'm in a hurry. If a space says "Compact Only", I don't cram an SUV in it and I never park across multiple spaces, even if it would make my life easier to do so.

There's a lot of things I do out of respect.

But out of respect for MYSELF, I don't change who I am to make anybody else more comfortable.

If I don't respect me, who will?

*climbs off her soap box and puts the dirty laundry back in it*

[jenniebear]

for the record...(and i've rewritten this post 3 times now because it's become a sensitive subject.....)

And Freta...i thought your post was well written and it did make me think a lot...........

but for me...this thread is about an AB attired guy riding his bicycle down a residential family oriented street, diaper showing, sucking his pacifier....not about sexual orientations or choices of clothing even or who you have a right to love and share a life with....

To me this is someone who is waving a giant flag...yelling at the top of his lungs...........LOOK AT ME! and the picture just isn't a pretty one....not for my mom and dad....or my lil nieces and nephews....or my grandparents....or even my friends or co-workers who now have a certain picture in their head of an AB man riding his bicycle wearing a diaper.......and while i view myself as a very tolerant accepting person i don't get where asking for use of descretion is condemnation...no one is asking him to never wear a diaper or never enjoy AB activities.....but to respect others who are not willing participants

the only persons who i've seen express that they've come close to sharing this same sort of passion for engaging in this sort of practice in public view have been very few and in my opinion from what they've said they are probably not doing these activities in the same blatent context as AB man on a a bike appears to be.......maybe.........just maybe Diapered Witch would be the exception though i have some serious doubts as while he strives to be a unique individual...his posts don't generally give me the impression that he is disrespectful of others...........but that is a whole other conversation ....... and when Diapered Witch posts that he walked into his neighborhood dairy queen wearing a diaper and baby bonnet and holding a bottle of juice.........then i will join that conversation...

i'm sure my own experiences does not make this as personal a topic as it has become for some others........but for me....it's always been about respect and that's my bottom line....

[Guest]

just maybe Diapered Witch would be the exception though i have some serious doubts as while he strives to be a unique individual...his posts don't generally give me the impression that he is disrespectful of others...........but that is a whole other conversation ....... and when Diapered Witch posts that he walked into his neighborhood dairy queen wearing a diaper and baby bonnet and holding a bottle of juice.........then i will join that conversation...

Have we not been reading my posts?

Was "I am a girl" not clear enough for you?

Name's Jessica, I'm a girl, check my license if you wish. If the government can recognize who I am, I'm sure you can too.

BTW, a vegan wouldn't be caught dead in a DQ.

Of course, I didn't disclose that nearly as much as "I AM A GIRL".

The PROPER pronouns to refer to women are she, her, hers.

Seriously, you just had a whole post about being respectful to others, yet despite ANNOUNCING my gender in a post, discussing my skirt, make up, Hello Kitty stuff, and having Hello Kitty as my avatar... you still called me a he.

Please explain how this doesn't make you an enormous hypocrite?

*fuming*

[jenniebear]

my apologies Jessica, calling you "He" was a slip and definitely unintentional...i've been in DD for a long time and remembering name changes also isn't my strong point.........and i also was editing while you were posting..........so your quote isn't the same as what i've written....and for the record...as you seem to have taken my post personally.........it wasn't intended to be a slam.......the DQ comment was meant as a joke...we've both posted in the vegetarian thread..........i guess i'm not that funny at 1 am in the morning.......time to go to bed....

edit...again...

i'm tired and i'm human.......and it was an accident......

[Guest]

my apologies Jessica, calling you "He" was a slip and definitely unintentional...

Apology accepted and greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

and i also was editing while you were posting..........so your quote isn't the same as what i've written

I just checked that quote box against your post, they are identical.

as you seem to have taken my post personally

Sorry, I have a horrible habit of doing that when people mention me by name.

I was far too angry at being somehow mistaken for a guy to even register any sort of joke.

[Vic]

for the record...(and i've rewritten this post 3 times now because it's become a sensitive subject.....)

And Freta...i thought your post was well written and it did make me think a lot...........

but for me...this thread is about an AB attired guy riding his bicycle down a residential family oriented street, diaper showing, sucking his pacifier....not about sexual orientations or choices of clothing even or who you have a right to love and share a life with....

Actually, Jenniebear, if you'd actually been reading this post you'd have known that the guy in AB attire was IN HIS OWN YARD! Not as you keep stating, riding a bicycle.

Eric D was riding his bike, (I can only assume that it was in fact a motorcycle) NOT the afformentioned AB dude in AB drag.

Eric D, if you have read this post that you have started this far, I'd like to clarify a couple of things.

First, this is NOT my "lifestyle", I'm actually in between, mostly DL, but sometimes leaning a little towards AB. That means that I wear diapers every day, (since becoming diabetic I've been having the occasional accident so I wear for protection), buit I enjoy wearing diapers, so it doesn't bother me. I do have to wear at night, as I do pee the bed.

On the other hand I do own some onesies, and footed sleepers, but I rarely wear them, I just have to be in the right mood to tell you the truth.

So no, this isn't MY lifestyle, but I see no harm in those who do live the AB lifestyle. I for one, would be uncomfortable going out in public dressed in a onesie and diapers, as I don't care to advertise myself, but I don't condemn those who do.

What does piss me off is having someone standing up and shouting out about how this person is sick and immoral because they don't happen to conform to that pious persons idea of "normalcy".

I have seen what "normal" people have done in this world, and it's pretty sick if you ask me.

Then again I'm not the most "normal" person you'd meet, as I prefer listening to music to watching the tube. I just feel that you get far too much propaganda from the media machine that tells you who to be and what to wear and how to act. Most of the CD's I own come with parental warnings and are not considered to be nice by most "normal" folk.

So Eric, get a life, you can't expect everyone to conform to what you consider to be "right and proper", if you do, well then you're sure to be dissapointed in this life. Jenniebear, please read the entire thread, you'd be better informed and then I might give your opinion more credence.

Peace out!

Vic

[Eric D]

To me this is someone who is waving a giant flag...yelling at the top of his lungs...........LOOK AT ME! and the picture just isn't a pretty one....not for my mom and dad....or my lil nieces and nephews....or my grandparents....or even my friends or co-workers who now have a certain picture in their head of an AB man riding his bicycle wearing a diaper.......and while i view myself as a very tolerant accepting person i don't get where asking for use of descretion is condemnation...no one is asking him to never wear a diaper or never enjoy AB activities.....but to respect others who are not willing participants

Thank you jenniebear, for this very well said small statement... I think THIS hit's the nail straight on it's head.

oh, and for the record, I was riding my bike, the AB was walking down the street...

(not that it makes a difference though

Anybody who doesn't like it can go die for all I care

...

I never said it's all about me. However, I can only be me, the same as the dude with a mohawk can only be him, and the goth chick can only be her. I'm not going to hide myself to make others happy. What makes me me isn't harming anybody. It doesn't make me less able to drive safe, or give others cancer, or expose people to disease (I keep myself clean!).

Now, if that guy is happy going out like that, then he should be able to. He's covered up enough, more than some of my co-workers at my last job.

...

So, instead of fag, I'm getting called sicko.

You just don't want to get this, do you? you mus feel so unique and threatened that you just don't see this clearly anymore.

You're one hell of a contradiction. But I guess you'll be "proud" when I say this.

It is in my opinion (humble or not) a very sad thing to see an individual, desperatly needing to be accepted by society and yet go through life with a "die if you don't like it"-attitude...

It's not about your gender-issues here, it's not about whether you'r vegan, pagan, roman-orthodox or whatever.

And please enlighten me as to when and wehre exactly I have called you a sicko? as far as I can recall it, I have never done anything like this. But feel free to point it out to me if you think I did any such thing.

I'm honest - I have a dislike for people with an attitude like yours towards others... I guess some of the shite I've seen during my short life has teached a few different values, morals and a bit of a different meaning of Respect, being respectful towards others, decency and about taking things too far.

--

And who are you to decide what the social rules are for the neighborhood? As long as the fellow is covering his rear and or sexual organs than he is within the letter of the law. His social obligation has been met. If you take his attire and decide to go confront him with violence then you are against the social rules of this country and will or at least should be punished for that behavior. Personally I would look at him and go about my my business... Heck maybe even go talk to him. I also feel maybe you should go read the Phoenix articles to learn the difference between right and wrong...

A bit of moderation doesn't harm anyone - as jenniebear said before.

my mind is blown away by the ammount of indecency and unwillingness to keep things a bit "moderated" outside some people find necessary to "express themselves".

I have btw. not gone up to this AB and shown any bit of violence. Whilst I had a rather violent past (having spent years in mil. service and some of it behind enemy lines doing what I had signed up for) I would never attack anyone as long as this person would not threaten or attack me or someone else. I have the physical strength, capabilities and skills to beat the shit out of most... but only because I'm stronger, faster and more skilled at these things it doesn't give me the right to beat anyone up for things like his indececny or disrespect.

I could have gone there and talked to this guy, but I really didn't feel like I'd find the right words and decided to go my way would be the best decision.

as jennie said it, I too don't get it where asking for descretion is condemnation...

Maybe you should try reacting with surprise followed by tolerance and acceptance. You don't have to be upset by it unless you choose to let it upset you. Then it's really your own fault not the other person's fault.

Ok, I can guarantee you if in that neighborhood I'd go from house to house, nock on each door and ask them whether they are happy having that AB Dude walking around, I get at aleast a 99.95% response in the line of "not happy".

yes it is of course my fault that I don't like things shoved into my face..

I still think it's over the line, over the edge and again, why is it so difficult to be a little bit discrete, a little bit more moderate esspecially in a family hood... eh?

I never asked anyone being an AB to stop what he's or she's doing... just respect that most non-AB will find it gross or weird or out of the line - I don't say you need to stop or conform, but respect others in their wish not to have to deal with it in a family neighborhood...

I direly fail to see why understanding this is such a difficult task and has been taken so personally by many here - mostly by the TG "community" here...

[Baby Bethany]

To quote some lyrics from the awesome band Suicidal Tendencies.....

"...Oh,what's that?

So how you say life sucks

Well,ninety-nine percent of it's

What you make of it...

So if your life sucks,you suck..."

Taken from"Gotta Kill Captain Stupid"

And

"Just 'cause you don't understand what's goin' on don't mean it don't make no sense

And just 'cause you don't like it,don't mean it ain't no good

And let me tell you something...

Before you take a walk in my world

Take a look at the real world

'Cause this ain't no Mr.Rogers Neighborhood.

Can you say"feel like shit"?

Yea,maybe sometimes I do feel like shit

I ain't happy about it,but I'd rather feel like shit than be full of shit!

And if I offended you,I'm sorry...But maybe you need to be offended

But here's my apology and one more thing...FUCK YOU!

'Cause you can't bring me down!!!!!"

Taken from"You Can't Bring Me Down"

Yeah Pampers Pete, now you're talking!

"I don't care 'bout the clothes you wear, it's the size of your heart, not the length of your hair"

Suicidal Tendencies

(Saw them live 4 times, 1988 - 89)

Shit, I can feel a mosh coming on, lol.

[Eric D]

Have we not been reading my posts?

Was "I am a girl" not clear enough for you?

Name's Jessica, I'm a girl, check my license if you wish. If the government can recognize who I am, I'm sure you can too.

BTW, a vegan wouldn't be caught dead in a DQ.

Of course, I didn't disclose that nearly as much as "I AM A GIRL".

The PROPER pronouns to refer to women are she, her, hers.

Seriously, you just had a whole post about being respectful to others, yet despite ANNOUNCING my gender in a post, discussing my skirt, make up, Hello Kitty stuff, and having Hello Kitty as my avatar... you still called me a he.

Please explain how this doesn't make you an enormous hypocrite?

*fuming*

DW - you deliver a great example here...

that is part of what I think:

Are you so insecure?

You crave for an enormous piece of public acceptance... you basically scream at people (even if they did it by mistake) that you're a GIRL... You're A GIRL.

for what it's worth, if you want to be a girl, that's fine. But in the same instance I give anyone the right to not accept it.

it's your own logic after all. or is it flawed? You have the right to become a girl, to think of yourself as a girl, to dress like one and even go and have the state change you gender-tag on a license... you ask for acceptance - it's your good right too, but it is anyone else's right to NOT ACCEPT YOU... it's a piece of personal freedom, isn't it? anyone else could say "Hell I don't accept you and your TG-Attire, and if you've got a problem with this, for all I care you can go and die." - I MUST REMIND YOU - THAT IS NOT MY BELIEVE - it is yours just seen from the opposite side, played on you. how does that feel? is it ok?

I don't think it would feel alright.

and again, I can not state this enough that if you feel like a girl (I don't claim to understand the physical & psychological aspects of your desire) then by all means - be one - but why must you take it two steps further and make it obvious that you're TG - make it so obvious that you want to be so different, why do you feel it's alright to shove this into someone's face...

Let's face it - if you're wish would ONLY be to be a girl, than be it. if you look feminine enough (or are skilled with outfits, makeup and whatever) than you'd just do that try to live a girls life and I bet 99% of the people wouldn't bat an eye. But you take it to the point where stand out like a red dot within a gray field. it's much, much harder to find acceptance on a broad level if you are pushing your agenda.

The question is WHAT is it you want?

The moment people accept you fully for what you are, without question or doubt you'll go "under" you'll no longer be the red spot on a gray patch... But if standing out and promoting conflict is what you opt for (which stands in a dire contrast to being accepted) then you act on a different purpose - and to go then as far and call for acceptance whilst you're not even willing to act a little discrete at times when it would be the ethic and general consensus to do so is asking for "trouble".

But I guess in the end, standing out and being someone "special" by all means necessary is what you're after.

it's like with those publicity hungry poor people who feel the need to talk about their problems to the whole telly-world on one of those fucked up talk shows because they mostly are starved of attention, because otherwise their life is pale.

I rarely wear suits and all that... but when I attended my grand mothers (she was rather conservative, and so are most of her still alive friends of that time) funeral I decided to wear a classic, nice fitting dark coloured suit instead of my usual less "strict" outfit... Why did I "conform"? Did it harm myself? Did it interfere with my personality? Did it hinder myself from being me? No it didn't.

And with "conforming" to what was expected I helped to not to stir up the already sad feelings of most of her old friends who knew me from the day I was a very small child. it is not the place and time to be "rebellious" or "to fall out of the line" - a funeral like many other things are social institutions - if at your funeral you wish people to be funky, than that's another story.

But at my grand mothers funeral it was a "classic" thing... and I would have been upset myself if people would not have had the dignity to respect some basic social manners.

if you're strong, you would have no problem to "put yourself back a little" instead of going all "Look this is who I am"... because being discrete once in a while when it's appropriate by a general ethic consens within society doesn't hurt or destroy you - actually quite the opposite - it would help to manifest acceptance, tolerance and some peace.

And like many I believe a person who is able to not put him/her-self "into the centre of attention" is stronger indeed.

----

but alas, that's my thoughts... I feel that we are here talking on two many different levels to actually go and understand each other...

That thread started with me being distracted - even slightly disgusted at the actions of a certain individual and we have come as far to to debate personal right, choice of freedom, public acceptance, tolerance and moral values.

Once again, I see that people often think of themselves that they are so tolerant, so accepting, so open-minded and that usually those who proclaim this are the ones being the most intolerant and most non-accepting of others - of those who think they are out of line... if acceptance would be true of your heart, you would even accept those who don't agree with you.

But statements like "don't care if you go and die" exactly show how intolerant you are yourself - and that is, if anything at all, bitterly sad.

----

to recite what originally was the issue:

I think it's out of the line to go out in full AB, BDSM or any usually sexually oriented (YES, I've heard it ... for some it's not sexual at all, but take my account on it, that within an outsiders eyes the motives are secondary if not tertiary) - especially in a children/family small neighborhood is crossing a line (even if that line has not (yet) been drawn by the law...) .

There is something like ethics, a general understanding within a society, a moral conduct - and it's there and most people will agree on some basic issues according to this.

I voiced that I think such a person as that AB is also responsible for giving those ABs who do what they do with a bit of discretion a very bad rep, and actually help with slowing down some acceptance as they create emotional negative issues with many of the general public.

I also stated that I don't find it a pleasurable sight to see a 50-year old out of shape guy in a baby outfit... besides that I think it looks silly, it just doesn't look "good" or "cute" to my eyes...

I don't think extreme body-builders (neither male or female) are a pleasurable sight either... Same as I think any person in a leopard pattern tight-fitting garment is not the most adorable thing to look at.

And I bet EVERY SINGLE LAST ONE OF YOU HERE has a few things that he/she doesn't find attractive - or even repulsive. I have never met a single breathing, living, human being who would not have had a dislike or even worse for something...

has not much to do with tolerance btw - it's basically a personal preference of what one may find aesthetic or pleasing and what not.

And within that specs, the "model" I've given of the "50year old out-of-shape guy in a baby-doll outfit" is one of the things I have filed under the category of "not good looking" it's not my taste. Why not just accept this, eh?

[Saschadzg]

.

The question is WHAT is it you want?

The moment people accept you fully for what you are, without question or doubt you'll go "under" you'll no longer be the red spot on a gray patch... it's like with those publicity hungry poor people who feel the need to talk about their problems to the whole telly-world on one of those fucked up talk shows because they mostly are starved of attention, because otherwise their life is pale.

Hello Eric,

Well summarized. I myself want normality and do not want to be in the center of attention. My aim was to bend in and not to constantly provoke by appearing ambigous.

On the other hand, I do not want to be suppressed by fundamentalists like in Iran or Christian right wings. I cherish the liberties of Western humanist civilisation and would rather emigrate before wearing a burka, shador, etc.

Kvetinka

[Eric D]

Hello Eric,

Well summarized. I myself want normality and do not want to be in the center of attention. My aim was to bend in and not to constantly provoke by appearing ambigous.

On the other hand, I do not want to be suppressed by fundamentalists like in Iran or Christian right wings. I cherish the liberties of Western humanist civilisation and would rather emigrate before wearing a burka, shador, etc.

Kvetinka

Hello Kvetinka,

first: THANK YOU for both your reply here and for your aim to blend in and actually find acceptance as the person you are.

it is great to see that there are some out there who's "lifestyle" or choice have chosen a way of decency and a bit of moderation and aim for real acceptance.

- respect.

About fundamentalism (any type of, especially government-sanctioned one):

I'm no fan of that either... honestly..

take something more "western" as an example: the ban on smoking.

I'm a non-smoker and quite don't like to smoke passively either... When I go to a restaurant I want to enjoy my (expensive) meal without having to smell smoke all the time.

So far however, I have thought that a bit politeness (on both sides) usually helps with the issue...

unfortunately often, so far I have experienced that when I eat and the guy next to me starts smoking, and I ask him quiet and politely to either step outside or at least wait until I've had my food as I want to enjoy it without smelling smoke. Many take this very personal, feel attacked, feel offended and will become aggressive (mostly verbal, in rare instances physical too). I can deal with this, but it would be utterly unnecessary if such a smoker would have a bit of tolerance and acceptance. but so many have not (luckily not all).

But to make my point - because of such intolerant behavior the gov. of many countries has so far come up with total bans of public smoking... Even public drinking in some places...

I don't like that type of gov-regulation and I prefer a social way of dealing with these issues... but as long people continue to be so egoistically ignorant and intolerant and don't see when something is clearly inappropriate there will be someone who wants to make a controlling law for it.

It wouldn't hurt the smoker in a restaurant to wait five minutes or step outside... but many would never do so out of their own free will and think that those who are disturbed by it should leave.

it will be the same with everything else... now there's a place in switzerland where an ADULT is not allowed to drink a beer outside in public after 10pm... it has been government-sanctioned, made a law.

Now they have places which have a ban on smoking and are debating to make this "nation-wide"-policy.

There will be more and more laws for all sort of things and wrong behaviours - and you know why?

It's because of people who feel it's ok to push their issues and their lifestyle onto others. Onto people whp might, for various reasons, not approach the "offender" but one day will make their voices heard in forms of laws and regulations.

if everybody, especially people with an alternative lifestyle, fetish or whatever would just use some ethical discretion and moderation, no such stuff would need to happen.

No body needs to "hide" or lie about his/hers lifestyle... just try to accept that not everyone wants to be part of it. and that a bit of moderation doesn't hurt or diminish you..

it's not as black and white as many try to depict this - it's not "conform" or "vanish"... it's about respecting each other and not just finding respect and acceptance for yourself.

Kvetinka, again - thank you for your contribution here...

I feel that what you say has more weight with some of here than whatever I would say.

[lynniehyde]

for the record...(and i've rewritten this post 3 times now because it's become a sensitive subject.....)

And Freta...i thought your post was well written and it did make me think a lot...........

but for me...this thread is about an AB attired guy riding his bicycle down a residential family oriented street, diaper showing, sucking his pacifier....not about sexual orientations or choices of clothing even or who you have a right to love and share a life with....

To me this is someone who is waving a giant flag...yelling at the top of his lungs...........LOOK AT ME! and the picture just isn't a pretty one....not for my mom and dad....or my lil nieces and nephews....or my grandparents....or even my friends or co-workers who now have a certain picture in their head of an AB man riding his bicycle wearing a diaper.......and while i view myself as a very tolerant accepting person i don't get where asking for use of descretion is condemnation...no one is asking him to never wear a diaper or never enjoy AB activities.....but to respect others who are not willing participants

the only persons who i've seen express that they've come close to sharing this same sort of passion for engaging in this sort of practice in public view have been very few and in my opinion from what they've said they are probably not doing these activities in the same blatent context as AB man on a a bike appears to be.......maybe.........just maybe Diapered Witch would be the exception though i have some serious doubts as while he strives to be a unique individual...his posts don't generally give me the impression that he is disrespectful of others...........but that is a whole other conversation ....... and when Diapered Witch posts that he walked into his neighborhood dairy queen wearing a diaper and baby bonnet and holding a bottle of juice.........then i will join that conversation...

i'm sure my own experiences does not make this as personal a topic as it has become for some others........but for me....it's always been about respect and that's my bottom line....

Haven't we been through all this before? This is a totally irrelevant, ignorant and disrespectful post. I know you say your tired and blah, blah. But, pay attention to what's really being said, before you vent your feelings.

Cuddles,

--heidilynn

[Saschadzg]

take something more "western" as an example: the ban on smoking.

I'm a non-smoker and quite don't like to smoke passively either...

Hello Eric,

This is a good comparison. Usually I ask the waiter of a restaurant either for the smoker´s corner or wait, till my neigbors have finished their meal. Moderation is the key to success.

On Monday, I had a fuel shortage with my car. The other drivers would certainly not have taken me to the next garage if I had been dressed like a prostitute or gothic. I also did not force any medical talk upon them, just thanked for their help.

When I was in hospital, I took my pacifier while woman next to me was aslep.

Everyone should use common sense. I tried to test the limits myself, but the result is being laughed at, etc. Therefore I usally do not dress younger than 16, except for carnival (Rosenmontag).

Liebe Grüße

Kvetinka

[Eric D]

Haven't we been through all this before? This is a totally irrelevant, ignorant and disrespectful post. I know you say your tired and blah, blah. But, pay attention to what's really being said, before you vent your feelings.

Cuddles,

--heidilynn

and maybe if you haven't anything real to contribute than don't contribute at all..

what exactly has been so ignorant and disrespectful about jenniebears post??

enlighten me please, as I fail to see it.

as apart from jennie mistaking DW as a man (she apologized btw.) I see nothing of disrespecting nature there.

and especially her part about is a very reasonable and well put "question" or "request"...

.and while i view myself as a very tolerant accepting person i don't get where asking for use of descretion is condemnation...

I ask you heidilynn, is it too much to ask for a bit of discretion in certain places?

Would you go the way you dress up as an LG to a friends funeral - well knowing that there might be persons attending not knowing you, and quite possibly being reasonably offended by your appearance at their beloved ones funeral???

Would you not find it more appropriate to "conform" to the "agreeable attire" for that occasion?

If not, well I'm sorry but it would be a show of disrespect and putting your ego in front of other peoples feelings in a tragic moment of their life.

I know this is an example - but it serves its purpose.

if you're willing to be discrete at such occasions, than why not realize that there are other places where a more discrete behavior might be quite more appropriate and appreciated?

[Codymoogle]

I wasn't going to get into this discussion again because I feel saddened and angry by it, however I did want to say one last thing.

I agree.

Personally, I like people who harmlessly break "social rules".

I just think everyone should be free to do as they please so long as they don't harm people.

Sorry, but seeing a 50 year old baby isn't harmful.

But I have to stand up for the individuals because being in the majority doesn't make you right. It didn't make it right to own slaves. It didn't make it right to discriminate against gay and transgendered people. It isn't right to treat this person like a piece of crap just because he made you uncomfortable. You can't control other people but you can control how you react. Maybe you should try reacting with surprise followed by tolerance and acceptance. You don't have to be upset by it unless you choose to let it upset you. Then it's really your own fault not the other person's fault.

To quote some lyrics from the awesome band Suicidal Tendencies.....

"...Oh,what's that?

So how you say life sucks

Well,ninety-nine percent of it's

What you make of it...

So if your life sucks,you suck..."

Taken from"Gotta Kill Captain Stupid"

And

"Just 'cause you don't understand what's goin' on don't mean it don't make no sense

And just 'cause you don't like it,don't mean it ain't no good

And let me tell you something...

Before you take a walk in my world

Take a look at the real world

'Cause this ain't no Mr.Rogers Neighborhood.

Can you say"feel like shit"?

Yea,maybe sometimes I do feel like shit

I ain't happy about it,but I'd rather feel like shit than be full of shit!

And if I offended you,I'm sorry...But maybe you need to be offended

But here's my apology and one more thing...FUCK YOU!

'Cause you can't bring me down!!!!!"

Taken from"You Can't Bring Me Down"

Bravo. Exactly what I meant by my post here:

Seeing someone using a paci or dressing in babyish clothes like overalls or a "little girl"-ish dress will not harm anyone unless they CHOOSE to be harmed by it.

If a child comes up to me and asks, "why are you using a pacifier?" etc, I'll answer in simple terms the child can understand. Even children - they more than likely won't think it's wrong unless their parent says so. Hate and disgust is taught.

It's not like we're going off and asking random strangers "Goo goo gaa gaa, i a baby, will you change my diaper?" - and those few that do, as I said above, are probably sexually driven AB's.

But I will say it again at the risk of sounding like a broken record -

Most of us AB's just want to be ourselves. No sex, no public indecency, no harassing people.

Thank you, DW, Freta, and Pete.

~ Moogle

[Eric D]

I wasn't going to get into this discussion again because I feel saddened and angry by it, however I did want to say one last thing.

~ Moogle

Then let me ask you one last thing too should you happen to read this:

what exactly makes you sad and angered? Is it that some people ask for a bit of discretion, respect, moderation and acceptance??

Oh, common - it is not so far fetched that the broad public is not "into" such things as ABism and DLism - so why is it wrong NOT TO SHOVE it up their faces??

but hell - I guess you missed the point here entirely.