Enthusi

Anytime you want to change a habit or behavior, you not only need to discourage the old habit, you also need to reward yourself for doing the new habit. Same holds true for teaching yourself to be diaper dependent. What good things help reinforce that you’re not able to handle the responsibility of being continent? I tagged this as NSFW because many of us have a diaper fetish in addition to incontinence desires and indulging in the fetish is a great way to reward oneself… or so I hear.

I’ve been reflecting on this a lot recently. Similar to so many others who frequent this forum, with my incontinence desires being what they are, and with me being so used to being diaper dependent, it’s difficult to maintain perspective. It’s like that little voice that tells me it’s not normal for me as a healthy(ish) active typically developing man to uncontrollably urinate himself without any warning day and night has been muted. I don’t care if someone sees my diaper poking out. They’re my underwear and I treat them as such And yet every now and then something happens that makes me realize that having to wear diapers is this horrible thing. Examples include: 1. A former coworker lamenting that her husband has prostate cancer but he doesn’t want surgery because he doesn’t want to to have to “piss in a diaper.” 2. Reading about how during New Year’s Eve in Times Square there’s no bathroom access for 8+ hours and so some people resort to wearing adult diapers. People ask me questions like what to do with the diaper once they peed in it. As if it has to be changed the minute it gets wet. And the way the articles write about this option makes it clear it’s not for the faint of heart. 3. I recently stumbled upon a would you rather question prompt that asked if you would rather always feel like have to pee, or wear a diaper and have never feel like you need to pee. I still don’t know the answer to this but the fact that they even had to ask tells me it’s not a a no-brainer. I feel like I’m missing something about how undesirable diapers are for most adults.

Hi Jazz, please don’t take this personally but I had a hard time following your post. Clearly you put a lot of time into writing this. However I’m not even sure what points you are trying to convey. There are a lot of run-on sentences that include details irrelevant to the paragraph. You touch on themes ranging from why you want to wear diapers, having diaper dreams, preferred brand of diapers, hypnosis, gender expression, increased frequency, having accidents, being sick, and ambivalence about going 24/7. Can you concisely summarize the salient points? Again I want to emphasize that my feedback comes from a place of compassion.

I have a lot of ABDL friends in IRL who love wearing and using diapers just as much as I do. But none of them share the same urge I had (have) to be diaper dependent and stuck in diapers for life. I’ve always wondered what’s up with that.

@Kaliborio Regarding question 3 about fading memories of being continent, something tangentially related is forgetting what it feels like to put a fresh clean pair of underwear on in the morning and simply head out for the day. After so many years of packing a diaper bag for the day, it’s hard for me to imagine not doing that.

@oznl thanks! It is truly a labor of love. I’ve done lots of stints of 24/7, with my first one at the ripe old age of 17. I still can’t believe I had the cajoles to wear diapers to high school, but that just shows how much I hated having bladder control even at a young age. But I digress. Anyways it’s been 5 years since I last wore boxers, and probably the last time of my life. I’ve actively untrained for 3-4 years.Back when the pandemic started in 2020 I splurged for a private personal hypnotist which I met with on Skype regularly. This was instrumental for my success and set everything else in motion. It was very different than using generic mp3s you find online. It was more like therapy where we identified my personal barriers to seeing myself as incontinent and worked through those. Along the way I did guided imagery and bladder relaxation exercises religiously to further weaken my bladder control and reinforce my self-perception of being incapable of stopping urine from leaking out. Think of it as moving in concentric circles towards a singular goal of pissing myself uncontrollably. So basically either 3 years, or 5 years, or several decades, depending on your frame of reference.

Spreading some holiday cheer! ?

Just a small quick update: Last night, overnight, we got hit with a snowstorm. I woke up this morning and excitedly jumped out of bed and ran to the window to marvel at the winter landscape. My fleece footed pajamas kept me cozy. As I was gazing out the window I noticed a subtle wave of warmth spread over my crotch. It was just enough to draw my attention away from the outside world. I could tell from how swollen my diaper was that I had wet quite a bit overnight. As I waddled back to bed, I felt the last few drops of pee leaking out of me, along with deeper, warm-fuzzy feeling about how far I’ve come in my journey. ? To all of you here, thank you for being so awesome. To those here who, like me, felt their potty training was a mistake, and earlier in your journey, I implore you to hang in there. Moments like this make it all worthwhile. ❤️

This is amazing and your approach has a lot in common with the approach I used to untrain myself, which I am (slowly) writing a guide on. Something that will help you on your journey is accepting that you’re incontinent, because… well, you are! This is quite common. In fact @Kaliborio recently wrote about this in her Tumblr blog… how those of us who untrain think we are continent when we are not. Once you accept and identify as someone who has poor bladder control you’ll appreciate that you have an obligation to stay dry and the only practical way for you to meet this obligation is with diapers. You’ll notice that you feel strangely vulnerable when not diapered and so you rely on your diaper to keep you dry, like it’s a crutch. This will likely worsen your bladder control in the long run but that’s a good thing, right? Your bladder control already isn’t that good, and it’s only going to get worse with time. As for community support, this is critical. Please post updates with your progress and ask for help when you get stuck. Also there are some semi-private Telegram groups for untraining and wearing 24/7. Feel free to DM me for links. Cheers!

Ok, so there’s a lot to unpack here (pun intended). The issue that I see here is your mindset. You seem to be experiencing a Gravity Problem. (Reference: Designing Your Life by Burnett and Evans). The gravity problem goes like this: “I desperately want to be a professional skateboarder. However I can’t get any airtime. Every time I try to do a spin or flip or grind I fall flat in my face. If it wasn’t for gravity, I would be amazing!” Hopefully you see the problem with that way of thinking. Professional skateboarders accept that gravity exists and learn via practice and trial and error how to work within the constraints of physics. Saying that you desperately want to be incontinent, except you would regret it due to the inconvenience and social stigma is no different. You can’t escape those problems any more than I can escape gravity. If you really want to be doubly incontinent, you need to figure out how to make it work given the difficulties. Trust me being diaper dependent makes travel and relationships more difficult. But it’s still doable. Start slow. Ask for help with specific challenges. Make mistakes. The cold hard truth is that if you’re not able or willing to be patient and work with the constraints of being incontinent, then let the dream of being incontinent go. Otherwise you’re going to be frustrated and stuck for a very, very long time.

Is the shame you’re referring to because you don’t even try to make it? Or about being happy to manage with diapers? For what it’s worth, based on my experience and from what I’ve read of others who are incontinent for “medical” reasons, incontinence is very insidious. Lots of people report they feel lazy and ashamed when they use their diaper when they could’ve made it to the toilet.

@Kaliborio you rock and I’m so glad to see you posting here! I love these sorts of questions and I can go on for hours. But instead, I’m going to try to give concise answers and if you or anyone wants me to elaborate, happy to. I would almost certainly qualify for heavy/severe urinary incontinence. It’s mixed, with elements of urge incontinence, dribbling and functional incontinence. My bladder is defaulted back to relaxed mode and usually I have to check my diaper to see how wet I am. I don’t even realize I have to pee until after I start peeing and even then it’s so effortless and such a small amount it barely registers. Nights are a blur. Usually I wet several times at night with little to no memory upon waking up. Bowel control is fairly good but I’ve had a few accidents. How long? Too difficult to answer. I was basically diaper dependent after about 2-3 years of untraining but it was such an insidious and uneven process, and my control is much worse now than even a few years ago. It has been about 5 years and my memory of continence has been fuzzy for about the past year and getting fuzzier. I remember being able to go 4-6 hours without peeing but I have no idea how I managed that. Staying dry seems like a super power. How was my control before? On paper it was normal. But staying dry always felt like real work. Before I started untraining the message I got was be careful what I wish for. Real incontinence sucks because it never stops. I’m like, ya, I know, that’s why I want it! And my vanilla partner wasn’t thrilled but knew it was important to me and made me happy so she went along with it. Yes I don’t think it’s possible to fully grasp what “ Real incontinence never stops” until you’ve been in situations where you leak at highly inconvenient times. For example I’ll randomly wake up dry and I will try to save my premium diaper for the next night, but I usually pee before I can even take the diaper off and so I have to toss it. Never tried to regain control. Even now with having a useless urinary sphincter I still fantasize about surgery to ensure it stays that way. How I like it: I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, being incontinent and diaper dependent would really suck if you didn’t like it. It’s an expensive, less effective, more embarrassing, highly inconvenient way of doing what your body is supposed to do for you. But I love that I deal with the same hassles as any other incontinent person and wouldn’t have it any other way.

I doubt I am the only one here who also dabbles in ageplay. And of course incontinence is going to be involved! For me personally, most of the time when I'm in littlespace I see myself as a precocious 3-4 year old boy who isn't showing any signs of being ready to potty train, and my caregivers have given up on even trying after numerous failed attempts. Though sometimes I will fast forward a few years and imagine being 10-12 years old who was never potty trained and is self-conscious and in denial about having to wear diapers and is in denial about needing diapers. What ageplay scenarios relating to incontinence do you vibe with in little space?

I don’t know. Never been changed by a medical professional. But from what I gather it’s not great.

@BabyBoi91 I totally get where you’re coming from, and the last thing I want to do is trivialize a horrifically stigmatizing condition. Though I think you might have misinterpreted my title. Or perhaps I should’ve worded it better. Either way, what I was getting at is that I’m genuinely surprised it hasn’t caused me more problems. As my bladder control worsened to the point where I need to wear diapers, I expected to encounter shame and embarrassment, and social stigma from others. And while it may come off as me bragging I assure you that’s not the case. Yes I’m relatively young, but I am not that young. Plus it’s been a few years and there have been PLENTY of times where I had to wear to doctors appointments or while traveling and I’ve had my diaper bag searched too many times to count. Each and every time I brace for the worst. But it turns out okay each and every time. That’s what I was getting at.

I can write an essay on this topic. For years I have fantasized about getting a surgery to make myself permanently incontinent. I know of others who have successfully undergone surgery. And simply knowing that it was a possibility made my heart ache with envy. Most (aka nearly all) Urologists and surgeons understandably would never agree to do such a procedure as you are basically mutilating your body. It’s kind of goes against the whole “do no harm“ mantra. My counter argument would be the psychological distress I have from being potty trained is way more harmful than the procedure. But I totally get why they wouldn’t see it my way. These days I don’t have much desire to get surgery only because of my success with intensive behavioral techniques. My external urinary sphincter is nonfunctional even if the muscle is intact. yet, if I was offered the opportunity to have a surgery, I would still take it to assure that it’s final. I can only speak from my personal experience, but I suspect I was successful in my untraining because my desire to be in incontinent was (is) so intense that I would willingly “mutilate” my body to make it happen. And I suspect it’s same with others. I told you, I could write an essay on the topic! ??

When it comes to potty training there are certain signs to look for to know that the toddler is ready for it and will be successful. What about the opposite? What are signs that an ABDL is ready for untraining and will be successful at it? Here are a few that come to my mind: Willingness to wear a diaper even when it’s not fun or convenient. Being ready and able to have access to a diaper change at all times. Being able to discuss incontinence desires with intimate partners. Being okay with the likelihood that other household members will find out. Accepting you may need to access emergency medical services while diapered, and having some degree of comfort wearing a protective brief (pull-up or diaper) at doctors appointments. Being able to afford diapers. Others?

I did have a funny experience not to long ago, or at least I thought it was funny. I dreamt that I was in middle school and I was playing at my best friend’s home, just like old times, except I was wearing a diaper (IRL I wasn’t diaper dependent back then.) Any says I suddenly felt the urge to pee and I decided that rather than use my diaper I would use the toilet and because time and space don’t matter in dreams I successfully made it and managed to hold it in long enough for me to take off the diaper. I was especially proud of myself for my aim. not a single drop hit the side or the floor of the toilet bowl and in my dream I thought, “I still got it!” It was right at this point I woke up to soaked diaper. Guess I don’t got it! ?

Hi all this is an update to the discussion I posted earlier about the status with my guide. Special thanks to everyone who has offered to help with the guide. You all are rockstars! As a small update I decided I need to re-write and expand the 3rd section on applying cognitive and behavioral technique to undermine control. I may also need help expanding the second section as well. In other words there is lots to do still. If you offered to help I plan to hit you up! However I finished the introduction which was a huge step. I thought it would be nice to provide a teaser and a framework for my approach. Side note, a lot of the formatting got lost when I pasted it here. Rest assured the final version will be all pretty and nicely formatted. Enjoy! Targeted Untraining: The Art and Science of Losing Bladder Control. By Enthusi Special thanks to @Zero_Escapefor their help with editing this intro! INTRODUCTION: If you're reading this, then it's because you're seriously considering untraining yourself. Let me first start by saying - you're crazy! Second, welcome! Why you're crazy: The consensus among us humans is that being able to control when you release your pee and poo is on the whole a desired ability. If you were to stand on the corner of Times Square and conduct a survey of 100 people if they were happy with having the ability to control their urine and feces (aka...maintain their continence); I am confident they would respond with a resounding, "yes!". Of course this is a hypothetical example and I would personally not recommend anyone trying to conduct this experiment! There are many advantages to being fully toilet trained. A few of them being (but not limited to): -Not having a bad odor -Staying warm and dry without depending on a diaper or catheter. -Avoiding skin breakdown from the harsh chemicals in your waste eliminations - Wearing skimpy clothes without a diaper or catheter. -A higher degree of social acceptance. - Improved ability to evade preditors who can track their prey based on the scent of urine. Though, admittedly this is less of a concern in modern society. By contrast, when you are incontinent, and specifically diaper dependent,, not only do you not have the luxury of the aforementioned benefits - but have added hassles related to the cost and upkeep that goes with wearing diapers 24/7. From personal experience, I spend anywhere from $2,500 - $3,000 USD per year on diapers and supplies. Furthermore, there is the whole social stigma that goes with having to wear diapers. And, while there are benefits that come with avoiding gross bathrooms, and not having to wake up at night to pee, they pale in comparison to the hassles of needing to wear diapers. There's also potential long term serious health risks associated with being incontinent. When you're younger, healthy, and active, diaper rash is an annoying inconvenience. Barrier creams, Epsom salt baths, and diaper rash ointments often do the trick. In contrast elderly,less mobile and those with a weaker immune system can sustain life threatening infections from skin breakdown and that’s not to mention the higher risk of urinary tract infections. Even if you are young, active and healthy right now, don’t assume that will always be the case and so this risk needs to be taken seriously and proactively addressed. Now that we have established that you have to be crazy to want to be incontinent… Welcome aboard! Rest assured you are not alone. Over the years I've encountered numerous individuals who, like myself, have an unquenchable, pervasive and intense desire to be incontinent. They (we) feel that our potty training is a glitch and want nothing more in this world to eliminate it. Despite any inconveniences that this lifestyle brings and the countless warnings of well-meaning individuals in the form of "be careful what you wish for" - it fails to dissuade us from this desire to become diaper dependent. If you're still reading this and feel to your core that you were meant to be dependent on diapers, then this guide is for you! Before we go any further, I must cover some important safety disclaimers: PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK! This work is meant to be an informative guide for individuals over 18 years of age with an insatiable desire to be incontinent. It is in no way intended to provide any sort of medical advice. Reader discretion is advised. Do not be afraid or embarrassed to consult a medical professional if you have any questions that apply to your own personal circumstances. Most importantly - SAFETY FIRST! Also this guide will not go into topics such as surgery, stents, suppositories, enemas, and medications. I know of a lot of people who are into these things, but there are numerous safety considerations with these that are inappropriate for this guide. I should also mention up front that this guide specifically deals with bladder control, however the same concepts can be applied to bowel control, if you wish to pursue it. ABOUT ME: I've been 24/7 off and on for many years. My current streak is 5+ years, and I don’t think it’s possible for me to return to continence and wearing normal underwear even if I wanted to. As a child, I actually had "normal" bladder control with very infrequent accidents or wet beds. How even from early on, maintaining bladder control felt like a huge chore and always felt I should be incontinent and stuck in diapers. In my teenage years, I put myself back into diapers. Fast forwarding to today, I am incontinent to the extent that I can't go any length of time (day or night) without an accident. I have a mix of urge incontinence and constant dribbling. I can still manage to clench (contract) my sphincter muscles, but even with considerable effort, it's like holding an umbrella up against a tidal wave. Even when I try my hardest to "hold it in", I can manage it for a minute or two - but even this is a stretch, are far too impractical to be useful. With time, my bladder has become deconditioned and the sphincter muscle has weakened. I have erratic, frequent, small voids - sometimes upwards of 15 times a day. Recently I have started dribbling which makes it really hard for me to process how precisely wet my diaper is. I am essentially forced to rely on my diaper to keep me dry, which in turn further worsens my control. (See: Spiraling) I rely on my diaper to keep me dry. People often ask how I accomplished this. This document aims to educate anyone interested on the techniques I developed to make my diaper dependence a reality. USEFUL TERMINOLOGY: Incontinence: The involuntary loss of urine. In general, ABDLs make a HUGE deal of what constitutes incontinence. They INSIST you can't become incontinent and get their diapers in a knot over what precisely is and is not considered incontinent. I find this amusing because nobody outside our niche community will ever question you if you say you're incontinent. A few key points: Incontinence is a symptom - there are many causes of incontinence, in much the same way that a lot of things can cause a fever. Incontinence is a spectrum - There are varying degrees of severity. Anywhere from occasional dribbles here and there to full-blown bladder voids requiring heavy-duty diapers. Incontinence can be an abrupt onset, gradual, temporary, waxing-waning, or even permanent! There's no "one-size-fits-all" or a certificate of achievement at the end. Sorry! Diaper dependence: When a person has a level of incontinence to the extent that they are unable to manage a normal life without the use of absorbent undergarments (i.e…diapers). This can be during the daytime, nighttime, or a combination of the two. Potty/Toilet trained: When a person has the mental and physical capability to decide when and where to eliminate their bodily wastes (pee/poo); usually in a toilet. While toilet training is not synonymous with incontinence, it's still critical to achieving continence. Untraining: The intentional process of losing the ability to control your release of urine and/or feces (BM..stool..etc). This is NOT the same as what a baby who has never been potty-trained would experience. For example, even though I have lost the ability to hold it in, I am still aware of what a toilet is used for, what a full bladder feels like, and that a full bladder is a a sign that it’s time to get to the toilet. Diaper trained: When a person is conditioned to have no ability to control their bladder (or bowels) when wearing a diaper, but able to stay dry when not wearing a diaper. Depending on your individual goals, this can either be the ideal state... or the "friend-zone" of untraining. Personally speaking, I see this as a form of bladder control. And yet for many individuals it’a "good enough". Spiraling: Aka initiating of the urinary systems “self-destruct sequence”. It's a critical stage of untraining where your bladder control has deteriorated to the point you need to rely on diapers to stay dry. In doing so, your bladder control further erodes away, causing you to further your dependence on diapers. Spiraling happens at different times for different people. It is not by any means a linear process. While spiraling is not essential for untraining, it is extremely helpful if you manage to achieve it. So without further ado, let's get right down to it. ***TARGETED UNTRAINING IN A NUTSHELL *** Understand the body parts and systems that help maintain bladder control (i.e. continence), paying particular attention to any weak spots that can be safely and easily manipulated. Designing personalized cognitive and behavioral techniques to exploit these weak spots. Apply these techniques separately and in tandem to nudge the body towards a self-induced spiral. Now on to the first step: Understanding how the urinary system works (so that we can sabotage it).

So I realize my story is a bit different in that I was an ABDL who untrained. But these days I am as diaper dependent as anyone who wears them for medical reasons. Over the years I’ve been in all sorts of potentially compromising situations related to being incontinent. This includes getting flagged in airport security resulting in pat downs. I’ve gone to dozens of doctors appointments over the years, some of which required stripping down to my diaper. I’ve had had my diaper bag searched at amusement parks and sporting events more time than I can count. I usually buy baggy pants which I take to a tailor with the request to hide the diaper bulge as much as possible. One time I left my work bag somewhere and I got a call saying they found it and identified it as mine because they opened it up and found my name on a some documents, which means they would have also seen the spare diaper I keep in there. I have no hesitation about walking into a pharmacy to buy adult diapers for me to use while at the gym. I usually crinkle when I walk. A few times a year I experience a bad leak when out and about, which aren’t always possible to completely hide. Everyone in my immediate family knows I wear diapers. Heck one time I fell asleep on a bench at the airport during a layover and upon waking up I realized the back of my shirt had gotten tucked into my diaper. So you would think by now someone somewhere would snicker at me or make an offhand comment of some sort. But it just hasn’t happened. Most people couldn’t care less and act super cool and professional about it. In fact because no one in seems to notice or care that I wear diapers, I have become less guarded and nonchalant about them, such as when I go to change in a bathroom stall. I’ve walked into a crowded bathroom with a clean diaper in my hand… Rip rip rip rip crinkle crinkle, rip rip rip rip. I step out of the stall and chuck the old diaper into the trash next to the sink, wash my hands and be on my way. And STILL nobody has said anything to me. Not that I’m complaining…

All very good points. And come to think of it, I’m not 100% sure the body can be reprogrammed to alter its ADH release cadence without a medical intervention. I assumed it was the case because I am a heavy night wetter, sometimes peeing multiple times a night. But it could just be an underperforming bladder and sphincter causing that. I’m tagging @Kaliborio. If anyone knows it’s them. I would still love to have a sub-section dedicated to cognitive and behavior techniques to induce nighttime accidents. In which case I would mention ADH as a barrier to nocturnal enuresis, but omit the stuff on circumventing the release.

@Zero_Escape omg I may take you up on that. Can you message me? @spark I never tried that but now I kind of want to. Sometimes in my “grown up” life I read passages of things I’m writing to my spouse and I always without fail catch problems. @Spargano and @oznl I’ve been thinking of other content areas for the guide that I would love to include but haven’t gotten to: 1. For the first section on understanding how bladder control is supposed to work, I made a bullet for the body parts and a sentence or two of what each part does and a link to some YouTube videos. It would better to list each component followed by a longer narrative description. Along with this I would love to paint the bladder control (“Bladder control” with capital BC) as a villain and personify it villainous qualities. My goal would to entertain the reader by adding some drama. 2. I just had an idea to add a section at the end about special considerations and modifications such as: - Limiting incontinence to only times you are diapered. It’s theoretically possible but you’re not as forceful in your attacks and you are sending your body mixed messages. - Achieving bedwetting: Bladder Control teams up with its sinister friend Anti-Diuretic Hormone (ADH) at night to limit urine production. So to achieve night time incontinence you need to subvert that process by getting your body to not release ADH. Difficult but doable and you need to feel safe that your diaper will keep you warm and dry so you don’t have to worry about it. - Learning to pee in different positions. - A common question we often get is “Do you practice making your self go when you feel the urge or do you let nature take its course?” No clear answer. My suggestion is when you’re just starting make yourself go, until it becomes a conditioned response and until your bladder muscles weaken. - Spiraling: Aka activating Bladder Control’s self-destruct sequence. - Applying the approach to bowel incontinence. Learn how bowel control works, find the weak spots, and come with ways to target and undermine it. There are probably more special considerations, but that’s a good start. Anyways, if you guys or anybody else wants to help tackle either number one or number two above that would be awesome. I can send my draft.

Can I ask when it comes to having incontinence for the foreseeable future what’s the catastrophe? What’s causing you so much angst and grief? For most people, uncontrollably peeing your pants IS the catastrophe. But I know you as well as any internet stranger that regularly posts here and you were already committed to the lifestyle before your control buggered off. @Kif Just another thought… if the issue is keeping the wound clean and dry what getting a catheter or some sort? Obviously you’d want to run that by your doc first.

So are you wearing diapers all the time just to be safe?

I feel like potty training was a glitch. I corrected it after 5 years of intense untraining and I have practically no bladder control left. On a good day I can hold it for a minute maybe two. Not nearly enough to be out and about without a diaper which means I always have to have a spare diaper with me. I have some unrelated medical issues and incontinence is on my chart so I don’t even care when my doctors see me in a diaper. There are tons of challenges to being diaper dependent, but the fact that I have to deal with the same hassles as anyone else who is “medically incontinent” is validating in of itself. It’s an expensive and HIGHLY inconvenient lifestyle and if I didn’t love it, it would be miserable.