BrownBobby

No, I don't constantly dribble. Part of that was developing a stricture, but part of it is just as someone said earlier in the thread - there's so many things that affect your ability to hold it. All a surgery like this does is get rid of a lot of the consciously-controlled ones. Case in point, if I have to mess, I'll start holding urine, just because the pelvic floor is trying to hold things in. But...the moment I do anything to relax my pelvic floor, it comes out. Messing, laughing, even getting distracted for too long...and, as a fun benefit, it's become very uncomfortable to hold back from messing for any length of time. I do rather enjoy that as an unintended side effect - I *can* control when I mess, as long as I'm willing to pay the price...:-p

Rmemeber...having the ability to do something with those muscles, and having that "something" be something of value is two very, very different things. In my case, I can squeeze and try to hold it...and if I'm really lucky and do it before i start peeing, I might buy three to five seconds before it all comes out anyway. If it's mid-stream? No point in trying - it's just going to make a mess of things.

This is a common side effect of the antibiotic you're taking, combined with the (hopefully) extra fluids and earlier fasting. In short, don't worry too much about it.

Simple answer on why you don't get "everything": bleeding. You need to make sure what you did cut can fully heal without causing blood loss, strictures, or worse. Three weeks is enough time for the first round to heal well enough to make a second procedure safe.

Gods I wish. For what it's worth, the price does seem to be steadily ticking down operation over operation, but that's fair from a guaranteed trend.

If you genuinely want the answers to the questions, I'm willing to assume good faith and give them - but again, I'm noticing you actually haven't addressed any of the points about this being self-harm despite extensive medical and professional evaluation... I try to be as open about this as I can. I've mentioned it several times on this forum. Many of those mentions are deleted because some person comes into the thread meaning to "preach to the lost" and convince everyone that they're hurting themselves and/or somehow mocking those who didn't choose to be incontient. They usually refuse to take any suggestions that, perhaps, what they're saying isn't actually contributing to the conversation and get a mod involved. The result is deletion of anything remotely related to it. I'm amazed these threads have stayed up so far. It's partially why I stay away from many of them - why post my story again if someone is going to come in, decide that they're going to be the hero saving people from themselves, and get it deleted? (And before you jump to the conclusion, no, it's not because of some argumentative tone I've taken - most of the time, it's the person coming into the thread to try to "save people" that ends up flying off the handle and ironically giving the mods a reason to delete it.) This is partially why your stance is aggravating. You're right to be concerned that there is danger here. Again, it's not whether or not you say it. It's how much, how insistently, and how inflexibly you hold to it. My analogy above isn't as hyperbolic as you think. For many in this forum, and especially those who are so deeply into this subject that international surgery is even a consideration, they've already tried a laundry list of other methods. They've done years of research into the effects and what might result. In fact, our person getting the surgery is one of them, from my talks with him. Your warnings are like telling a professional race car driver to make sure to slow down for the turns, and when he still takes them quickly, saying it's "still self harm that he'd even consider going that quickly around it" because of how dangerous it is. Which is why I get aggravated about this topic. I don't need validation about my decision. I'm beyond happy with it. My biggest regret, by far, is that I hadn't had it done sooner. I can't imagine how much better my own life would have been had I had this opportunity earlier. I would have avoided so much (actual instead of perceived) self-harm if I could have had this outlet. Heck, even knowing the outlet existed would have been incredibly helpful to my mental health. In causing incontience, I am an expert. I've guided over a dozen people to various levels of potty untraining, from weakened bladders to full on diaper dependency. I've done more looking through scientific literature on this topic than anyone I've met (though I suspect there are others just as submerged into it as I, for the same reasons). There's a reason I stay mostly in this forum - it's the one most aligned to my interests. There's also a reason I usually end up being one of the argumentative ones when one of those "nay-sayers" cross over from helpful to unhelpful to irritating - this matters to me, deeply. And if I have learned one thing through ten years of pursuing this goal actively...I'm far, far FAR from alone in having a deep-seated, ingrained desire to be incontinent that I can't deal with any way but to actually *be* incontinent, as the years of addressing it has shown. I haven't been hiding. I've been speaking where I can. Then someone like you comes in, insistently nay-says until the thread gets nuked, walks away satisfied that they were definitely the good guy, and usually comes back to the next thread to do it again. Ironically, it's your concern that keeps you from having the chance to know, and it's far from just me that's this way. From my research, there may be more than a dozen people out there who have gotten similar operations from other doctors. They're almost impossible to actually talk to, because the moment they start speaking, someone swoops in and makes sure the conversation gets shut down because of "concern for people's safety" or "sensitivity to those who didn't have a choice." They've learned to shut up, keep their heads down, and don't bother bringing it up because best case, they'll have to explain it to someone woefully equipped mentally to understand, or worst case, they'll be beaten down by those "just making sure they don't self-harm again." Perhaps now you might see why your stance is met with frustration in this forum?

It says everything that you defend it as "being extreme." That's the extent I have to go to to have a CHANCE of you understanding how you're coming across. You are literally incapable of even beginning to accept that, just maybe, your intentions aren't matching what you're actually doing. But I'm done. You're incapable of understanding this from any other perspective than your own. Very well- there's a reason I normally leave your posts in my Ignored list. Let's talk about ME, then. A subject I am, unabashedly, an expert on. I'm going to talk about the licensed mental health professionals I've seen, which are experts on mental health and the appropriate actions to take. Both of those premises, I hope, are so obviously self-true that I don't have to defend them. But since I rather enjoy helping others see where this argument is being so wonderfully mis-applied, I will follow your logic, again, to the letter. *I* alone don't disagree with you. Four licensed counselors disagree with you. Two urologists (not even including this surgeon!) disagree with you. An entire mental health crisis team disagrees with you. But it will never be enough for exactly the reason you laid out - you either have to defend your position despite all this evidence as still being right, or analyze it and determine that maybe it's much more complicated than the easy way you want it to be. Unfortunately, it takes willingness to do either of those things, so it kills my hope if it happening. I *have* gotten help. Reference the previous list if you somehow don't remember. I've gotten lots and lots and lots of help. Do you know what the most common thing a professional says to me after going through all of this? "I understand how this is affecting you, and agree that you'd be better off incontinent. But I can't think of a good way to make it happen. I actually wish there was." But it says a lot that despite "all the help I'm getting condoning this," you still seem to think it's okay to act this way in general to people sharing information about stuff like this. If it was the first time, I would consider you a "random idiot on the internet." But boy, is it a pattern in so many topics in this forum. Well, considering I also had it done, congratulations. You're poorly informed. I don't expect that to change anything about your viewpoint. You've already decided you're doing the Lord's work in this, can't possibly be in any way, shape, or form doing it incorrectly, and have no plans to change. I "got the Exacto knife" and turned out just fine as well. I also vetted the credentials of the doctor through multiple medical databases and legal checks, but hey, what the heck do I know, right? It's not like I've been obsessively researching topics like this my whole life because it's been a desire I've had for as long as I can remember, affecting my mental health in such dramatic ways that it's led to very dangerous outcomes, where all other methods of treatment for either the desires or the resulting mental conditions haven't led to a full recovery. Nope. Not at all. I must be self-harming. _____ Again, I don't expect any actual change. You've already convinced yourself you're correct. And apparently if I am to accept your stance, it means I must be someone who's self-harming under goddamn supervision of about a dozen professionals in mental and urinary health. I care a lot more about the people who have this desire who, after reading multiple comments about how they must be wanting to self-harm and should not even consider options that might help reduce that harm, actually believe it and don't get help they could have had. For me, even knowing this WAS an option I could have pursued would have immensely relieved years of unpleasant stress, even if I didn't go through with it. Knowing there are options out there to help, helps. Telling someone "Make sure you want to do this, because it has a bunch of risks that might lead to bad things" is trying to help self-harm. Telling someone "you must be self-harming to even be considering this" is just being an ignorant, unhelpful asshole. I find the phrase "You can't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" is much more apt here. And this is me stepping away before that happens even more.

If it really was only "cautioning against something drastic and potentially dangerous," I think it'd be a lot more understandable. Let me be incredibly blunt - it's gone way, way way beyond "just cautioning." Let's follow your analogy, shall we? Let's assume we have a super-adrenaline junkie who can't find what he's looking for in the experiences available. Nothing has quite satisfied that need that he's had. He's done years of research looking for what other options are available, and vetted one option that, while not done enough to have an established track record of safety yet, shows promise with an operator whose record checks out pretty well for what he has done. Knowing all of this, and knowing the risks he's taking, he decides to do it. Then you come in, screaming, waving your arms in front of the adrenaline junkie, saying, "Look! I know what you're going to do, and it's dangerous! I mean, I thought I wanted to do something like this, but then I went on some go-karts, and that was enough for me! You'd be insane for attempting to do this!" The adrenaline junkie politely nods, reassures you that they're very aware of that, and that they have, in fact, gone go-karting. You keep insisting that it's dangerous, with each time the adrenaline junkie tries to reassure you going "I can't tell you what to do, but its SUPER DANGEROUS! You must have some flaw in your judgement since any rational person wouldn't dare do this!" You'll forgive me if the adrenaline junkie thinks you're either a well-meaning idiot or being deliberately obtuse.

I think it says everything about the value of your argument that you only quote the second half of my post. It wasn't "safe and ethical" for a boatload of things historically that are considered commonplace now. Your argument has been used to argue against transgender surgeries, brain surgery, and even autopsies. Thank goodness society is willing to slowly and deliberately evolve those definitions over time. If you're not even interested in entertaining that thought, I won't put any more energy into trying to change your mind. I hope you don't waste your own energy arguing the same point that everyone else fully and completely understands already. EDIT: You know what, I think I've finally gotten a grasp on *why* you seem to not be able to comprehend this. Do you REALLY think the people in this forum DON'T know that this might be a bad idea? Are you genuinely so unintelligent as to think that NOBODY considering this surgery realizes that this MIGHT be a bad idea? No shit, Sherlock. WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT. That isn't a new viewpoint. It isn't some hidden truth that you, somehow, have exclusive access to that only you are privileged and capable of expressing. It wasn't right for you. Great! That's wonderful to know. Your "just get over it!" mentality was what led to my suicide attempt. It didn't just "magically go away." Wearing and using diapers didn't magically get "close enough for all intents and purposes." Multiple mental heath professionals realized that it went the other way - the desire was what CAUSED my mental symptoms. Preach caution all you want. I encourage it! I don't expect people to line up for this procedure. In fact, for most it's not even the first, second, or tenth thing I'd recommend they try to help this desire. But for those that genuinely DO have this deep-seated desire to this level...why are you so insistent that they suffer?

Get ready to do a lot of converting in your head - I survived by dividing every price by 20 - take off the last digit and halve what's left. It's technically like 17.8 pesos to the dollar. But it helped me with quickly deciding if it was worth buying something. Also, Google Translate is your friend. Download it now if you don't have it. You'll even find others using it to help talk with you.

I have an issue because you're promoting something I find harmful. You don't see it that way, but I don't think you've read any of my posts thoroughly. You've had an initial reaction but didn't read everything. If you did, and realized that 10 years ago, I actually tried to kill myself, and you still come back with the tone that you do, post after post after post after post...you're kind of an AH. If that upsets you ask yourself - is there a reason that, when your exact words are used to describe my reaction to your behavior, why does it upset you so much? Perhaps it's you that's the problem in this situation? Pretending people don't have these feelings don't magically make them go away. There are actual, real consequences to them feeling like there is no other way for them to safely achieve them. And yet, "for safety" and "to prevent harm," people like you seem to be completely unwilling to allow those feelings to have a safe outlet to be pursued. What's better in your mind - having someone with desires like these feel a continuous, never-ending need that leads to inner conflict, anxiety, and other negative consequences that they either get to bear their whole life without an outlet or take things into their own hands and unsafely try to resolve, or having a way for those desires to actually be fulfilled in a safe, controlled setting with people trained in how to not only make sure it happens, but that this treatment would be the best way to address that desire?

So, the two biggest things of my life so far, given that I've been in diapers for 10 years before surgery: 1) Every time I feel my diaper getting wetter and I didn't choose it, it's the best feeling in the world. 2) Everything else is just as stressful as it was before becoming incontinent. I take no special effort to hide my diapers - I'm discreet, but I'm in diapers now. No need to try to pretend like I'm not. Most of my friends know, and some know it's because I chose to be. My family often pretends to not notice my diapers - like I'd expect most people's family would.

The bigger the better, but only for 10-15 minutes at a time. Longer if I want to be especially thorough. And a stent like Memokath is a possible longer-term solution...but you have to be extremely careful with those. The risks aren't worth it compared to surgery - and that's saying something.

They definitely made sure to cover their bases, including making it clear that I understood what I was asking for and why. I don't really have that much legal standing for recourse anyway, as a non-citizen of the country. I'm beyond excited everyone was honest. For a while, I leaked pretty freely. It took about two weeks for the final clots to pass from surgery, and then another month or so before I noticed something wasn't quite right. If I didn't feel such a strong need to be wearing diapers, I'd have tried this method. I'm still very much on Team "Try Other Things before Going for Surgery." And as long as you keep using a cath about once a week to keep things stretched out, it seems to maintain itself pretty well. The irony that I'll be cathing myself for the future because of this stricture is not lost on me.

Yep - they tried dilating to stretch the stricture, and that helped, but they now think it's best to cut it out. It's a temporary move - scar tissue will eventually reform - but with proper care, it will take a long, long time before it becomes a problem again. The stricture can be painful at times, especially when it's acting up, but it's bearable. (And yes, I've still been diaper dependent the entire time - scar tissue cannot hold back a half-full bladder when you stand up unless it's REALLY inflamed.) As for what I told doctors...it was the truth. Honestly, I don't know why people think it's going to trigger some huge, negative consequences. Doctors are often confused when I mention it, but I've done it enough where they at least understand why I would have done something like this. I'm even honest about being honest - "I could either make up a medical history that has this presentation, or I could just be honest about what happened and why. I'd rather be honest."

And if you're willing to pay the price - think tens of thousands of dollars. Still worth it in my mind, but it definitely was a steep price tag.

It's odd with a urethral stricture. Imagine going to all that work to remove the urinary sphincters, only to develop one that you can't really control if you wanted to. It's been an interesting experience so far - but I've found local urologists willing to treat it. When it's not affecting things, I'm basically a pre-potty trained toddler in terms of control. I can either go every 10 minutes, or accept that I'm going to wet myself. I find it a perfect amount of control to have - just enough to know I'm *still* failing. I'm even getting surgery next week for it, so here's hoping in two weeks I'll be mostly done with it except for some occasional cathing to make sure the stricture remains stretched out for good. They did remove the catheter in a clinical setting. They didn't need to, honestly - it went exceptionally smoothly. I didn't even know it was out at first because of how quick it went.

There's an irony here - I've been doing mostly fine. You're definitely right that the (honestly hilariously ignorant and predictably inane) nay-saying has a negative effect on things, but ironically, my absence has been because of personal things in my life - turns out, being made incontinent doesn't magically fix the rest of your life. Who knew? I'm pretty darn excited to see someone else pursue this - if anyone has any specific questions, please feel free to ask. And here's hoping your surgery goes well - you're in good hands. Say hay to Yuni to me - she's amazing!

I and the original thread author went through the same place - and have been encouraged to share whatever we want about the process. This is an actual, legitimate offer - hence the matching price tag.

Two people now, actually - I'm one of them. And for those people looking into serious interventions like this...surgery is a very serious step, but with all its risks, it's a safer solution than options like this.

I agree with @DAQ - unless you're implanting electrodes or attaching them directly to nerves, you probably won't be able to get them to affect the bladder this way. The muscles are just too deep under the skin to have that strong of an effect. Now - if you're willing to accept a significant level of risk, there is an alternative way. When muscles get overworked, they stop being able to contract, and default to relaxed. For the pelvic floor, this would severely limit someone's ability to hold their urine. I experimented with some possibilities and had some promising results before finding much less fun side effects and stopping. Now, if you're looking to make someone mess themselves...that's easier with TENS. 😛

I have quite a bit of relevant experience here - and it's going to be difficult to get a doctor to do this. Not for the reasons a lot of people would say ("Do no harm!", "Be careful what you wish for!", "You'll get your organs harvested!", and other very unhelpful and unenlightened takes), though. When I approached multiple urologists to talk about this, none would do it. The risk of side effects in recent medical literature make it a solution that most won't do unless your life expectancy is less than the usual time side effects start presenting. All of them were much more willing to perform surgery than consider this course of action. If you are looking for surgical options, I've found a urologist that will do it, and he's had two successful procedures at this point. It's expensive - think $20,000-$30,000 - but if you really want to do it, it's an option that's available. If you still are interested in stents, I'd recommend looking at the threads in this forum that go into detail about self-made ones based on catheters. They come with their own risks, but the temporary nature of them help with a lot of the more serious side effects that might result.

It's interesting to read this - not only because what's described is very much in line with the ideas and tenets of cognitive behavioral therapy, but because I have told many psychologists and therapists about this and received nothing but support and understanding. If you have had a negative experience with sharing this with professionals who should have been supportive but weren't...I'm very sorry to hear that, and know that it probably was very unpleasant and uncomfortable. I hope it helps somewhat to know that that isn't the only possible outcome from telling the medical community about things like this.

For me, the line is a bit more blurry than this, but it's somewhere between 4 and 5. I feel most satisfied when I experience an inconvenience or situation where being continent would have been preferable, or even desirable. Did I just pee on the floor mid diaper change? Wake up to wet sheets? Leak all over my chair because work kept me in back-to-back video meetings? Those moments really help it set in that I am incontinent, and not just pretending. It's not for everyone for sure, but it's deeply and unbelievably fulfilling for me.

And to add to that procedure...there's a one in three chance it simply does...nothing. Trying to weaken those muscles is a difficult process, even with surgery. I'm not telling you not to pursue this - heck, I'd be a hypocrite if I did. But you definitely need to know what you're getting into, and the consequences of it. I don't regret getting surgery myself to do this - heck, it's something I'm happy I did. But that was after ten years of wearing 24/7, talking with several therapists and medical professionals about whether I should do this and how would be best, trying twice with different procedures, and even then I'm not at the fantasy-in-the-stories 100 percent complete incontinence. There's no shortcut to this process. I'm happy to help and answer questions - I'd much rather people be educated than take careless risks with stuff like this. But think "major surgery with the appropriate price tag and risks" when you're considering it. I recovered excellently, and it was still a overnight stay in the hospital and a week of nothing more strenuous than walking a few hundred feet.