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How do you do this? Very interested

There’s a few different methods, but first you need to be able recognize what that feeling is.

You’re looking for the relaxed feeling that occurs as you finish emptying the bladder but before the reflexive push and/or clench to stop the stream/dribble/get last amount of urine expelled from the bladder.

Once you recognize that sensation, try to prolong it after each wetting. At first you clench down after few seconds, but that should be able to me built up fairly quickly.

If you’re wearing 24/7 I would combine this with the practice of wetting in any position and at any time. I find (still) that I clench if going from sitting to standing, changing positions, starting a new action like walking, am I’m a stressful situation, or near capacity and close to needing to change. I also find that if I’m anxious or stressed that clenching those sphincters happens a lot- which I’ve started using as an indicator of how much strsss I’m holding in my body and try to relax those muscles (I tend to hold a lot of tension in my body and use progressive relaxation techniques S needed, deep breathing etc.)

The technique that actually weakens these muscle groups is called reverse kegals or dropping of the pelvic floor. The how to guides are easily accessible with a quick google search.

I intentionally separated the reverse kegal exercises as it has some trade offs, the largest of which is a weak core This can lead to lower back pain, inability to empty the bladder completely among others.

I personally have used the reverse kegals with great success over the years but now I do not have the ability to empty my bladder completely, and it can exerbate my neurogenic bladder. I also believe that over time it’s led to less signaling/sensitivity- though that could be my other health stuff.

You can use compression garments for post surgical recovery of the abdominal area for feedback mechanism (provides gentle pressure on your bladder and helps to keep it relaxed.

Honestly though if I was starting from scratch I would instead approach this from the point of switching the default patterns in your brain from potty trained to pre potty trained, which I posted on a few posts up. Basically the goal is not to modify the body but what neurological patterns get activated. The older weaker pre potty trained pattern is still there, it’s just not in use right now. You want to work on strengthening that pattern and weakening the current pattern.

Why I think this will be more effective is because the brain and the autonomic system are a team. Once you get the right pattern to fire you don’t have to worry about the physical condition or rather deconditioning that would need to be done to the body in order to achieve this. This in my opinion would lead to better health outcomes and less adverse complications. It would also give you the option to work out, not worry about erections or orgasms etc. as it’s not about how strong or weak these muscles are but the signals your brain is sending to them.
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On 3/28/2020 at 7:23 AM, BlakeJordan said:

Honestly though if I was starting from scratch I would instead approach this from the point of switching the default patterns in your brain from potty trained to pre potty trained, which I posted on a few posts up. Basically the goal is not to modify the body but what neurological patterns get activated. The older weaker pre potty trained pattern is still there, it’s just not in use right now. You want to work on strengthening that pattern and weakening the current pattern. 

Can you please share a link to your posts?

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  • 2 months later...

@BlakeJordan not so much "resurrecting" this thread but giving it a slight poke (albeit at your invitation on another thread).  It hasn't been dead for that long ?

I never started my 24/7 journey with the explicitly thought-through objective of becoming incontinent (or at least dependent) but, 18 months later, there are signs that this might be happening.

I'm curious, and it isn't that obvious to me  from previous (recent) posts, what is your continence status today?  If you are incontinent, how much so and how are you managing?  If you are continent, did you have to recover that and how did that work for you?

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[mention=16278]BlakeJordan[/mention] not so much "resurrecting" this thread but giving it a slight poke (albeit at your invitation on another thread).  It hasn't been dead for that long [emoji846]
I never started my 24/7 journey with the explicitly thought-through objective of becoming incontinent (or at least dependent) but, 18 months later, there are signs that this might be happening.
I'm curious, and it isn't that obvious to me  from previous (recent) posts, what is your continence status today?  If you are incontinent, how much so and how are you managing?  If you are continent, did you have to recover that and how did that work for you?

It’s Alliiiive! Well at least active, somewhat, maybe?

Thanks for poking this thread of thought.

The short answer to the question of “am I incontinent” is in part at least, at all times, and most of the time I’m mostly incontinent.

As convoluted as this sounds it is fairly accurate and I’ll try to explain.

I’m also open to a discussion with you, or anyone else that might be reading. Perhaps an AMA to kick off the discussion. I’ve been thinking a lot about this journey, and my life’s own journey and have considered revisiting the narrative. Even thought up a title, “There and back again... a tale of identity”

I started with the title for my explanation as it’s been a long and winding road I’ve found myself on. I started in 2011-12 on this journey, and eventually made it there within a couple of years. At that first peak I wet the bed every night, had limited awareness and permission during the day, and when tested I could not hold a full bladder. By the time my bladder was 1/3 max capacity I was leaking small drops while doing the potty dance. My stream was about 1/5 of normal, and despite my best efforts I could not fully empty my bladder, and would have small drips for up to 10 minutes after voiding.

During this initial run, my bladder sensation also markedly decreased. At the time I assumed this was simply due to conditioning. During testing when a catch was used to fill up my bladder, I only felt it at 95% capacity, normally I believe it should be felt at 20%. This eventually led to a neurogenic bladder, and the lack of sensation never came back, and has actually decreased.

I did end up retraining in 2015, following a therapeutic manual my doctor gave me. This took intentional practice, and about 18 months before the phantom wetting stopped. When I first started retraining I could hold for about 20 minutes before the pee dance started, and max of 30 min before a the dripping became a very slow start/stop bursts of stream. I would guess this is because the sensation issue I mentioned above, and the inability to not completely empty the bladder. Basically my guess is that I hit 95% capacity. Within 20 min I was at 100% capacity and when I voided, it went down to about 20-30% capacity.

Before I started wearing again, I would flip between needing to go every 90 min (max training I was able to extend it to) and 6+ hours. There have been numerous times in the hospital, either due to seizures, post surgery, or autonomic dysfunction that I was unable to release my bladder and needed to be cathed either intermittently or continuously.

As for bed wetting, it took a couple years to stop after I attempted to retrain. I also had to highly modify my sleep routine, limit fluids caffeine, diuretics etc. at it’s best I woke up 3-4,x a night, and was able to get back to sleep fairly quickly. On average I would be able to ignore 1-2 of these wake up calls, and on average was getting up 2-3x a night.

At worst I was up 4-5x a night, went months with low quality disrupted sleep, and when my autonomic dysfunction started I would be up for 2/3 of the night, as I had to up my water intake (issues controlling electrolyte balance), and would get adrenaline surges (like waking up from a bad nightmare) every time I would get out of bed, hence being up for 2/3 of the night.

I will disclose that many of these issues were a direct cause from non non incontinent related health issues that would have likely presented one way or the other. It was the extreme ongoing unexplained vertigo that lasted for years that originally led me to retrain, as I needed to eliminate the possibility that the conditioning was somehow affecting other systems in the body, and that the incontinence was not being caused by something else... which on retrospect was true for the former, and partially false for the latter.

After retaining completed to my satisfaction, I went a couple years without diapers- too much else on my plate. I’ve never felt comfortable enough to go without a mattress protector, and it took several years to trust a nap would not cause an issue. The neurogenic bladder, the restless nights, the autonomic dysfunction, the systemic small fiber neuropathy, the incomplete voiding, and reduced bladder sensations (now believers to be ongoing nerve damage) never went away and have continued to get worse.

So... where am I now?
How I got in diapers. When my autonomic dysfunction got to it’s worse beginning in Q1 of last year pretty much all of body systems we’re screwed up. I was constantly in overdrive from a physiological aspect. My adrenaline and cortisol levels were highly elevated 24 hours a day, in spite of medical intervention, the nerve damage and spinal cord deterioration was continuing, I often could not stand up due to blood pressure drops. Basically my conscious waking state was that of constant hyper vigilance, anything not requiring attention to stay alive was irrelevant. Within two weeks the control of my bladder (in both directions) went from the retrained level I described to a mix of severe neurogenic symptoms, and the incontinence presentation I had achieved in the early 2010’s. It was like a light switch both on how quickly I lost control and the rapid flipping between neurogenic symptoms and what we typically think of as incontinence.

Around day 5, I resupplied, knowing what I needed to manage these symptoms. A couple of weeks later, I was admitted to the hospital. My mom found me paralyzed, unable to walk, unable to talk, unable to move a finger. She was dropping off food, unexpectedly, on her way to a Mother’s Day weekend.

This hospital environment is where I would remain in one capacity or another for the next 90 days. In this time period last summer, I was transferred to 12-15 hospitals, clinics, care facilities, and mental health wards, both in my state and in others. Around day 70 I started to gain some more control over the bladder, it started feeling “normal”ish. I remained out of diapers for about 3 months, though needing to be cathed every so often for the next week. This was correlated with a severe cold and pneumonia, along with a positive latent tb test, that kept me in isolation for two weeks.

It was around this time that I started to really notice I was missing time, and my memory was fucked. This is believed to be caused by the ECT that was administered a few weeks earlier, causing both short and long term memory loss including episodic and non episodic memory loss, both retrograde and anteriorgrade. This was originally administered to treat the intermittent paralysis, which was “catatonia like” enough to be used as the primary treatment over the course of six weeks, I had 13 sessions.

I’ll note here than besides a few flashes, all of 2019 was erased, along with episodic and non Episodic memories from throughout the rest of my life. It has been since determined that this is likely to be permanent and is a result of brain damage inflicted through ECT. I’ll also note that the freezing is believed to be due to a rare nerve conductive disease that affects the skeletal muscles. There also seems to be a strong correlation between the autonomic dysfunction/pots flares and the flares of the nerve disease. Likely upstream and indirectly related to neither, but acting as a still unknown trigger for both.

In any case, I started to notice I was losing time within hours of getting home from an out of state hospital, and as I didn’t feel safe I called in a crises team. This led to the pneumonia, and tb testing. What was intended as a medical certificate to move to a behavioral health facility due to the misinterpretation that I was not safe with myself and suicidal.

After getting out of both, returning home finally, I was able to sleep in my bed for the first time in over three months.

The episodic freezing continued into October and around Veterans Day the worst episode hit, putting me back in the ER, and ending up staying with my parents for the remainder of November.

For the month of September however I used diapers for functional in continence due to pots/blood pressure/mobility safety. For whatever reason my bladder flips to the neurogenic state during the freezing flares, and I couldn’t release my bladder even if I wanted to.

These freezing episodes last anywhere between a couple minutes to 12+ hours. For the month of November, when staying with my parents I was in a frozen state for about 18 hours a day, with anywhere from 3-30 minutes in between each episode. Enough to get to the restroom and back, as by 4-12 hours I definitely had a full sensation on my bladder. Nonetheless I had protection on at night, and a bed protector in place.

Around thanksgiving I finally started to become more stable, and although I was still freezing for 4-6 hours a day I was able to go home. Because of the unpredictable timing of the freezing episodes, and the ongoing pots and blood pressure issues, I started wearing 24/7 again as a form of functional incontinence, with the random wetting that was unnoticed starting within 24 hours. It was definitely more comfortable on my bladder, and safer for my kidneys if I could not get to the bathroom because I was unable to stand.

Sleep at this point was all over the place, and the diapers helped me get the sleep where I could without triggering a flare of adrenaline.

Since mid December I’ve continued wearing 24/7. I still have freezing episodes, I still have pots, but they are mostly manageable.


To bring this back to the question. I wet myself pretty much every time I sleep now, the exceptions being of when I have excess adrenaline or cortisol that tend to keep the bladder clenched tight all night, and vastly reduced urine output.

During the day, 70% of my voiding is either without consent or without knowledge. The only time I’m really in control is when I have my undivided attention on down there. More times than not if I bring my attention to whatever my bladder is doing about 40% of the time I notice a VERY slow flow. Whether that’s the new normal for “awareness/consent” or not, I’m not sure. The only time where I can achieve full control is if I’m drinking a ton of water, have just voided completely to the best of my ability, and am not diapered (airing out). My guess is it’s a combo of the bladder needing to refill before an urge hits, and since there’s been very little pressure for at least 20-30 min the signal is both sent and received. The other factor being that the sensation of not wearing, having airflow, coolness lack of pressure and actual visible dryness helped keep my attention on it as it’s not the more uncommon sensation. The longest I could hold, with dripping starting around 30 minutes was 45 minutes in this naked state.

I will also mention I tried a similar experiment and being clothed but no diaper. Essentially preparing myself to wet my pants. The first wetting was both consented to, and felt, but how much of that feeling was the dampness of the clothing vs actual bladder and urethra sensations is questionable. After that initial consenting wetting subsequent voids were less and less noticeable and by the time an hour passed and 4-6 voids had occurred it was a very similar experience to the “I know this happened because I let it, but I don’t have the full memory of the wetting” and the only real thing, after only an hour was when urine would collect on a different part of the chux/bed pad. I had an experience similar to what Dr Satler may have experienced I. Jurassic Park as the 2nd drop of water dropped down her hand in a visual explanation of ugh, chaos theory.

So how am I coping. I’m coming to terms with the knowledge that although this was likely to progress to this point and further due to underlying issues, I certainly helped it along both in years past and over the past year. Once I got that point of “well now this is just plain distracting, and not in the form of “informative and with enough warning and control to take action on” I helped things along, which admittedly I still am. I would like to eliminate the neurogenic aspects as much as possible at this point. That would definitely give me more options and flexibility of what to where, and when. It would also prolong the life of the diaper and save me money in the long run.

Changing while standing is still a pain the as for me. I really dislike changing in stalls. Also having the use of hand only to change means even under the best of circumstances it takes longer, and exponentially longer in a stall. It’s possible but very much a process and an order needs to be followed. For instance, I always need to pull out the disposal bag, open it up, and hang it on the bathroom stall door. Hopefully there are two hooks as my bag/purse needs to be accessible as well. Bending over can often lead to fainting.

These days I use a hook/loop/Velcro diaper when I’m out and about as a compromise in absorption, thinner profile, and of course the tapes. It usually takes me 2-4 tries in a stall to get the diaper to fit to the point I trust it. The first round is just to hold things in place so I’m not fighting gravity (in place of what a second hand would allow on a first attempt. I am very lean, no more than 135 lbs and if I wasn’t in a diaper I fit perfectly into a size 2 skinny jeans. The skinny being a factor as my thighs are quite small, and where I have the biggest issues with leaking. My left thigh is also only about 2/3 the size of my right so that’s also interesting. And of course the fit/manipulation of the tapes is very different using the same hand to rape both sides. Complete opposite line of approach.

I usually wear Gary active wear, and some sort of onesie type garment. I have multiple compression garments meant for surgical recovery I bought to help after a tummy tuck and BA. (Lost about 110 lbs over two years). I originally kept wearing them as it helped with pots/blood pressure/digestive issues/blood pooling etc and kept wearing when the incontinence reemerged.

I tend to drink about a gallon a day due to the pots stuff, so I often need a booster, or two so as not need a change after 90 min and not leak if I’m unable to move. Also you know, to stay feeling dry for longer and the benefits of wicking for skin health is underrated. I still have unexpected large voiding which are likely culprits for disastrous leaks, again still working on that. But yet another reason to use boosters beyond just increasing absorbency. A good booster can make a diaper that would not be able to handle a flood, more than capable. Given that there is very little difference in sensation between a full bladder void and a small 4-6 oz void I’m often surprised and caught off guard. This along with the requirement for high quality tapes necessities the need for premium diapers, which insurance doesn’t cover, so I’ve budgeted in the $350/mo as absolute requirements, the same as food, utilities, and mortgage.

As my control and awareness has slipped through my mind, like sands of time eroding the ability of the body and the body’s awareness of ability I have built in my routines. Changing based on time, rather than weight or fluid intake. That is, I will always change within an 90 min of waking up, usually around 7:30. I will always changed around 4:00, and then around 9:00. I will change before this if I notice fullness, weight, shape etc. or if I leak. Those times are my “safety zones” it leaves me with a buffer in either direction of up to 90 min in either direction. I’ve shifted from trying to maximize the use of every diaper to a routine I can set and forget.

For those times where I get caught in the middle of a timeframe I usually just use an xp5000, with a small booster if needed.

At night or if I’m lounging around, doing chores etc I will usually wear terry lined plastic pants. There’s been enough times where I get stuck not being able to change because I froze or hit a wall with pots and need to lay down for safety where the extra protection is wanted, if not always needed. I also find that keeping a slightly larger Gary activewear brief on helps with keeping things in place without construction of the diaper, and gives me the extra protection I need when doing anything physical.

Not sure if it’s me, but I find diapers leak in the darndest ways if I’m bending over, exercising, basically being active. While unpredictable the usual smaller Gary activewear I would use in a sedentary period seem to be a guaranteed leak, out of the Gary brief as well.

I do get frustrated with myself when I “knowingly” hold my body in a position that I’m prone to leak in, but do it anyway because it’s comfortable. I tend to for instance bend my left knee in while sitting in a reclining couch (as I’m doing now) slouching and stretching at the same time. I know there’s about a 1 in 4 chance it will cause a leak but honestly don’t care. There are way too many years of me holding that position/moving into it that unless I avoided it through hyper vigilance, I’ll end up in at at some point throughout the day.

I think that hints at a larger point, accepting, of not always embracing part of my identity is being incontinent, both for organic/physiological and psychological/body dysphoria reasons. As such I reluctantly have resigned myself to accepting leaks are going to happen and although I will continue to minimize them with new techniques, I’ll never be able to eliminate them, and that isn’t the goal. The goal is just to minimize their impact on my life. A good illustration of that is, because I know certain situations have a high probability of leaking, I tend to mitigate the impact by wearing the terry lines pants, and not being upset by the extra laundry or concerned that I’ve yet to be able to figure out how to consistently prevent leaks in that position out of the diapers.

I guess I now look at it as a system, with different tools for different situations. Yeah I’d prefer a one off solution but I’ll take and embrace a system that is adaptive and stop complaining when I use part of that system that I don’t particularly enjoy, but need.

The systems idea has allowed me to pivot from the need of constant attention to being able to intentional effort, design, maintenance, refinement and when things change, intentional practice. It’s allowed me to modulize, stress test etc. similar to a wardrobe, what you wear everyday you likely don’t think much of, yet can pick and choose for an occasion, and when you need to take a trip, you can custom tailer your wardrobe for the trip’s requirement. You don’t pay attention to what you’re wearing or what you will wear, it’s a system you’re simply used to using.

On the clothing that is one thing that’s taken me some extra time to figure out. Part of it is body dysmorphia, matching new outfits, paying attention to new things, and stop paying attention to others.

One change that is coming for my wardrobe for instance is so many more skirts and dresses. I’ve always liked them but they were always a small part of my wardrobe. When I first transitioned my body shape was that of a typical overweight guy, if not slightly androgynous in fat storage. Over the past few years however I definitely have a visible hour glass shape and, with the weight loss, I have a wide variety of easily accessible skirts and dresses to choose from.

I’m likely to stick with skirts due to the flexibility in getting the cloth out of the way while changing, but the general nature of either allows the diaper shape to be hidden, and even accent the female form. Now I know that this isn’t an option for those that present as male, but it still falls under how I’m handling things. We all know the double reality clothing and diapers holds for each of us.

The general consensus overall from my social circle has been “that sucks, I’m sorry, let me know if you need anything different when you’re over here”. Granted most of these people have known me as I’ve worn off and on over the years. And those that haven’t are used to me sharing my medical stuff as my weird and bizarre health issues are ever present, ever changing, and ever influencing my life and relationships. I’m pretty open with people about my health issues, my part of destigmatizing invisible and chronic illness. Yes I have health issues, no I’m not just a patient, but neither am I just member of the family, a friend, a coworker, an employee. I’m me, as messy and complicated as that is.

It’s hard to say what the impact will be day to day a decade from now. I think even in the world of medically incontinent it’s not a straightforward solution, answer, or system. What I can say is that i continence has played an underwhelming role in the impact of my day to day life, what I can or choose to do. Where and with whom I spend my time and work. Oddly enough none of the things I’ve mentioned in this extremely long post has had the largest impact in terms of consequences over the years. Out of all the crazy and weird health issues I have, extremely dry combined with extreme corneal nerve damage in my eyes has put more limits on every moment of every day than anything else. The embarrassment factor and taboo isn’t there, but all the consequences are. I am in extreme agony most days. Sometimes I can’t even open my eyes due to pain. It limits my screentime, being in front of a computer, being outdoors, being in too hot or cold environments. I have to play out what I can do in a day, how I can do them, what I need to do them. If I push things too much I end up with what feels like an ice pick through my eye constantly, for weeks at a time. It’s funny no one ever tells you the biggest impacts to your life are the ones no one has any clue about, would notice even if they were looking for it, and if you point it out to them, they listen, shrug and answer with “whatever, that sucks, I’m sorry”. Not caring nor wanting to know more, and only given it the time of day because it affects someone they know, they love, and they care for. It’s also funny that they too have their own invisible challenge they “think and know” will get out, no one will understand and they will be judged and “everyone” is going to laugh at them.... unless “everyone” is simply living in their own world, where fear of being laughed at and judged in front and center in their mind”.

And so it goes..and So. It. Goes.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Wow, it really has been quite a ride for you!  Aside from all of the other pathologies, it was reassuring that you were able to re-train when you needed to but slightly less reassuring that your re-training fled before competing priorities.

Thank you for the detailed update.

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Wow, it really has been quite a ride for you!  Aside from all of the other pathologies, it was reassuring that you were able to re-train when you needed to but slightly less reassuring that your re-training fled before competing priorities.
Thank you for the detailed update.

Certainly! I’m not quite sure what you mean about my re-training fled before other priorities. Do you care to elaborate?

I am fairly certain that the methods laid out here and elsewhere can lead to in continence for just about anyone. As I’ve eluded to I consider this to be in large part of which neural patterns get triggered and are dominant.

I also firmly believe, and have seen on myself and others that it’s likely possible to retrain at least mostly. From those that I know that have tried it takes just as much effort as training for incontinence. This re-training is also most often not 100% and prone to relapse under certain common stresses and conditions.

Both directions of training seem to be exponentially more difficult than originala potty training. There tends to be irreversible physical changes that do occur and can only be compensated for through creating other habits.

It has additionally been reported that once retrained, any extended diaper usage (more than 5 days) takes effort to come back from. Any additional un training becomes much more effective and at a much faster clip. Conversely, returning to being non diapered becomes much more difficult each time.

I want to contextualize this as, even though I have multiple complicating issues that have led me to where I am, I know personally of at least 3 others who have ended up with permanent loss of control, despite best attempts to retrain. This leads me to conclude I may have ended up in a similar situation had my return to diapers been voluntary and there are both neurological and physiological mechanisms at play here that can be decoupled from any of my own complicating and confounding variables.

On this last note it also appears that any Comorbidities that can affect the predictive value of obtaining incontinence in one’s lifetime whether temporarily (such as medication side effect) or permanent are much more likely to have a causal link that could not otherwise be controlled for.

All of this to say
If you play this game you’re likely able to come back, mostly, at least once, but also more likely to return later in life in ways not of your own volition.
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One other observation.

It seems that for those that make it one year or more of 24/7/365 with or without the intention of becoming incontinent either don’t stop, or if they do, it’s as a last resort. There appears to be a never ending pull back to 24/7 for the vast majority of these individuals.

The theme of identity, dysphoria, dysmorphia etc comes up over and over again. This doesn’t get acknowledged enough in my opinion. In my opinion if you’re still wearing a year later and enjoying that aspect of your life the majority of the time, that need (need intentionally used) is not going away, the need is deep rooted and a part of who you are. You can be quite confident that it’s the right thing for you if you’ve gone 12+ months.

I know this may be a bit controversial as some are drawn to 24/7 in their most difficult times and can be misconstrued for some sort of vice. I do not believe this to be a character flaw, but rather a coping mechanism, a tool, a missing piece of the puzzle. It’s for these reasons and more that some are drawn to 24/7 during low points in their life. It’s also I believe a reason why some who decide to go 24/7 end up thriving. Not only do they overcome the difficulties during that period but their baseline level of happiness is much higher, both during those difficult times and future good and bad times. Much like relieving dysphoria due to something else it can free up resources for resilience, grit, and improve your overall quality of life.

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3 hours ago, BlakeJordan said:

One other observation.

It seems that for those that make it one year or more of 24/7/365 with or without the intention of becoming incontinent either don’t stop, or if they do, it’s as a last resort. There appears to be a never ending pull back to 24/7 for the vast majority of these individuals.

The theme of identity, dysphoria, dysmorphia etc comes up over and over again. This doesn’t get acknowledged enough in my opinion. In my opinion if you’re still wearing a year later and enjoying that aspect of your life the majority of the time, that need (need intentionally used) is not going away, the need is deep rooted and a part of who you are. You can be quite confident that it’s the right thing for you if you’ve gone 12+ months.

I know this may be a bit controversial as some are drawn to 24/7 in their most difficult times and can be misconstrued for some sort of vice. I do not believe this to be a character flaw, but rather a coping mechanism, a tool, a missing piece of the puzzle. It’s for these reasons and more that some are drawn to 24/7 during low points in their life. It’s also I believe a reason why some who decide to go 24/7 end up thriving. Not only do they overcome the difficulties during that period but their baseline level of happiness is much higher, both during those difficult times and future good and bad times. Much like relieving dysphoria due to something else it can free up resources for resilience, grit, and improve your overall quality of life.

I completely agree with your term of a missing piece of a puzzle. Nothing more true than that. When I became urinary incontinent and wrapped my head around it there was that missing piece or need for bowel incontinence as well. 5 years later I started on that journey and have since never looked back and am much happier for it. 

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I completely agree with your term of a missing piece of a puzzle. Nothing more true than that. When I became urinary incontinent and wrapped my head around it there was that missing piece or need for bowel incontinence as well. 5 years later I started on that journey and have since never looked back and am much happier for it. 

It seems like it’s been forever! I’m so happy to see you’re still around and still active!

It certainly seems there is more to this incontinent desire than what is common knowledge. I’ve mentioned to others that a full doctoral dissertation could be written on the subject, and not begin to scratch the surface.

It’s of constant fascination of how similar this need is, and how it’s closest counterpart is that of identity, dysphoria, and dysmorphia.

I mentioned in this thread awhile back that my own dysphoria with incontinence was as strong as my gender dysphoria. That certainly has not changed and each has been its own puzzle piece. I do wonder if there is a difference though. It’s commonly accepted that gender identity and thus dysphoria is biological/organic in nature; to the point where it’s not even epigenetic. I do wonder if the incontinence dysphoria is more a function of environment, epigenetics and genetic predisposition. Similar to how DID, OSDD and the like present. I know that one theory had to do with separation issues before age 7 and likely before age 3.

I also find it interesting how common it is for people with this dysphoria to consistently distinguish between the need to identify/be incontinent and the reason to wear diapers.

For me diapers have always been a means to an end. I’ve always thought of my dysphoria as “I want/need to be seen, live, and meant to be incontinent. Diapers are a way to deal with, manage, and represent that incontinence. This identity and thus the physical representation is more important than the actual tactile and emotional comfort the object that is a diaper brings me. Diapers are as much practical as they are a sense of comfort and security.

Both are there, but the object is in service to the dysphoria”.

I too think this has been a drive over most of my life (until I obtained it through the natural course of my health) to achieve incontinence, and why “just wearing 24/7” was never good enough. The psychological impact of control or the lack there of and the physical sensations of the body just were not present.

This of course goes against the fetishized depiction of diapers as an object and the paraphilia of infantilism. Sex is bound to interact with all of this but does not seem to be the source of the dysphoria and missing puzzle piece. It’s the equivalent of cross dressing and wearing feminine clothes as an expression of gender identity. Sure the outcome might appear similar but the root motivation is completely different.
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You do a much better job explaining what could be some of the reasons for it than I ever could begin to. What I know for sure is that now completely dual I’m in a much better place for it. 

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You do a much better job explaining what could be some of the reasons for it than I ever could begin to. What I know for sure is that now completely dual I’m in a much better place for it. 

I don’t know that is a reflection on me or you as much as it is the lack of research and limitations of language.

I’ve only gotten to this skill level of articulating a human experience via medical jargon through necessity and years of day in and day out practice.

It is worth mentioning that I have intentionally resisted leaning into the desire for dual incontinence. I would bet this desire/dysphoria is much more common amongst the incontinence desires community than many would like to admit to themselves.

There is something to be said for never needing to be in the same room as a toilet and the complete disregard and subsequent freedom the dual loss of control can grant.

In all honesty I’m tempted every day to pursue dual incontinence. Though, at least as of now I think it would be a bigger burden than benefit. This is mostly do the social taboos and practicality of clean up with one functional arm/hand.

The fact remains however that it is still a secondary but very real part of my own dysphoria. It is also a fact that my own vowel health would likely benefit from it, having iBS, delayed gastric emptying and a few other GI issues, attempted dual in continence would likely help everything from regularity, to abdominal dissension and pain, to eliminating constipation and even help with nutrition absorption.

At leafy right now I don’t think it would be feasible on a purely physical level. Nonetheless it’s tempting and the potential benefits are real. I could also see it getting me the last 10% in terms of distraction and eliminating the neurogenic bladder (full bladder, huge voids;nerve damage) issues both giving me less distractions and less leaks.

If I had a job I could perform from home, eliminate the odor, have a consistent texture/composition that allowed for easy cleanup I would be very tempted to make the jump.

As of now- maybe, someday. I certainly don’t judge and can understand the dysphoria and benefits.
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There were so many things I had to throw out the window or at least do what I could to achieve this. The need was so much stronger than the worry about odors & such. I do everything I can to minimize all the social taboos and I feel I do a pretty good job of it. That being said if I couldn’t do anything it wouldn’t change my outlook. The positives for me far outweigh the negatives. I also understand there are many that would like to follow my path but life gets in the way. I feel bad for them as they must be very conflicted.

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There were so many things I had to throw out the window or at least do what I could to achieve this. The need was so much stronger than the worry about odors & such. I do everything I can to minimize all the social taboos and I feel I do a pretty good job of it. That being said if I couldn’t do anything it wouldn’t change my outlook. The positives for me far outweigh the negatives. I also understand there are many that would like to follow my path but life gets in the way. I feel bad for them as they must be very conflicted.

Good feedback on if circumstances changed it would not change things for you. I really appreciate the perspective. There definitely is conflict, at least for me.

Can I ask what you had to throw out the window?
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33 minutes ago, BlakeJordan said:


Good feedback on if circumstances changed it would not change things for you. I really appreciate the perspective. There definitely is conflict, at least for me.

Can I ask what you had to throw out the window?

Sure. I had to throw out things like the odors associated. I just couldn’t worry about that but do what I could to minimize it. The type of clothing. I almost always wear overalls. Going somewhere just on a whim. Doing an enema if I were to go to a large social gathering which gives me about 36 to 48 hours before I’ll poop again. Staying clear of things like caffeine so consistency is always correct. It was work then but zero worries today.

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16 hours ago, BlakeJordan said:


Certainly! I’m not quite sure what you mean about my re-training fled before other priorities. Do you care to elaborate?

It seemed from what I'd read that you'd effectively trained yourself urinary IC but then reconsidered things and managed to re-train yourself back to continence (albeit somewhat reduced continence) which contradicts the advice of some others.  That didn't altogether surprise me. I'm learning that experience eats advice for breakfast.  The "fled before other priorities" comment was reflecting that your re-acquired continence seemed to, not by conscious choice, rapidly disappear once the constellation of other medical conditions arose.

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It seemed from what I'd read that you'd effectively trained yourself urinary IC but then reconsidered things and managed to re-train yourself back to continence (albeit somewhat reduced continence) which contradicts the advice of some others.  That didn't altogether surprise me. I'm learning that experience eats advice for breakfast.  The "fled before other priorities" comment was reflecting that your re-acquired continence seemed to, not by conscious choice, rapidly disappear once the constellation of other medical conditions arose.

That makes sense, and is completely accurate. I’ll certainly emphasize the “managed” and “re-acquired...once the constellation of other medical issues arose”.

I appreciate the clarification!
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  • 1 year later...

Another day, another year…Update time!


(Scroll to the end of this post for the bottom line)

The past year has been just as crazy with health issues and like most of the rest of the world a time warp. 

I have more confidence in my theory that comorbidities influence my level of continence. For me it seems to be a finite resource issue, albeit one that is heavily linked to my autonomic dysfunction and whatever it’s root cause is.  I’ve found that because I have to consciously control many parts of my body functions that should be automatic/autonomic through intentional conscious thought/control I have better stability when I don’t have to be hyper-vigilant on the status of my bladder function, capacity etc. 

I have also noticed that if there is an acute insult/injury to my body I recover faster when I use diapers and let the incontinence take it’s natural course. 

The closest analogy I have is if you had to remember not to blink…think weeping angel episode of doctor who “whatever you do, don’t blink!” It takes mindful attention not to blink, and thus reduces resources available to perform other tasks. Likewise I have confirmed that like “spoon theory” I have to pick and choose what I put those resources towards. 

As mentioned in a previous post my eye issues have been most impactful on the day to day function/quality of life. I’m currently recovering from eye surgery, the 2nd of 5 eye surgeries that will span the rest of this year- six months in total. I have noticed significant reduction in my continence after each surgery, and then a slow increase in my continence/control as things heal back up and I get to my baseline stability for health. 

I’m at the point where I can predict how much control of my bladder will “cost” and if I want to put those resources towards that control or not. Going by medical scopes, this definitely qualifies as incontinence as people who are not incontinent don’t even think about putting resources towards monitoring their bladder. Just like people who don’t have autonomic dysfunction don’t have to think about/practice blinking

(no, seriously after 6 years I am STILL practicing blinking, as my my body will lapse back into not blinking if I don’t keep reinforcing the habit, using triggers in a similar fashion as we talk about for incontinence training)

While I have figured out how to “switch on” continence, it’s a manual override of the default state and costs me every time. How much of this applies/could be used for the opposite goal for our target audience  I am unsure of but am becoming more and more convinced that continence or the lack thereof is just as much neural pattern, habituation, and momentum (what you did yesterday influences what you do today and who you will become tomorrow and in 10 years), as it is physiology. This leads me to believe that in continence, and most autonomic functions can be changed through the practice of manual override, which leads to neural plasticity and eventually handed back over to the brain stem and autonomic functions. 

This theory is being indirectly tested with the eye surgeries I’m in progress of. Being an N=1 in the medical world I have multiple case studies from multiple fields of research/medicine tracking my outcomes. In a nutshell I’ve become a point of exploration and expansion on how plastic an adult brain can be. I am working with many of the world’s top experts as I have a yet to be understood ability to activate neural plasticity typically only seen in children on demand. Basically coming back from what has historically been considered “factually impossible” to reverse, control, and change. 

I have long had the ability to control my heart rate, blood pressure, brain frequency etc. I mastered meditation in my youth to the same level of monks and other masters of meditation. 

I have also used dual n=back programs and rapid skill acquisition techniques in combination with meditation to activate neural plasticity, and in Conjunction  with ketosis, fasting etc can increase brain derived neurotrophic factor, leading to neurogenesis ie new nerve growth and connections I. The brain, changes in brain/body connection, cellular regeneration/repair through autophagy in the body, an uncanny ability to make changes/progress as an adult in physical motor function/pattern that were previously thought impossible (due to cerebral palsy). 

While even the top experts are at a loss for how/why this is possible, it does demonstrate that it is and what was previously accepted as “being factually impossible” is being disproven. 
 

This all comes back to “can you make yourself incontinent?” and more and more I am leaning towards “yes”. With the theme of “There and back again” I am also leaning towards the opinion that anyone can do this, and come back/at least have physiological choice of changing the default mode of operation, be able to change that default, and be able to create an override “button”/alternate mode. 

To oversimplify I am becoming more and more confident that physiological incontinence that can be tested, quantified, and confirmed is achievable for most people that read this, as is the ability to reverse and/or temporarily override the default mode of physiological/autonomic function  (now don’t blink, go ahead and swallow, and remember to breathe). Sorry about that, but I think the point you just experienced was worth it. 

How to achieve this o. A foundational level is a different approach than what I practiced, is in the 12 month guide and suggested in these threads. It is in essence working to build a toolbox for cognitive, a neural/physiological flexibility, plasticity, and motor patterning. A toolkit who’s uses are applicable to ones everyday life, healthy aging, adaptation, and just coincidentally can be deployed/applied to changing continence. This theory, if proven out should be replicable step by step, measurable, quantifiable, and learned by anyone. A standardized holistic method, in the vein/level of any other skillset you would learn. 
 

Bottom line: The toolkit I have put together to adapt/deal with my health issues and that has drawn interest from multiple experts following my medical progress leading to case studies, lectures, used as  examples in classroom by the experts who are working with me (at this point just as much academia interest as clinical) can be used for our purposes as well. 

More to come, and questions are welcome, as always. 

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