My Untraining Journey (Trans, Pre-to-Post Op)

[Kif]

6 hours ago, cathdiap said:

Maybe it is time for a new sub-forum: "Continent desires". ? ?

>:O

[Kif]

So, I am post-op and to my surprise my continence continues to diminish. 

Somehow. 

Also, I literally cannot pee in a toilet. I've tried. But, thanks to the tension of the surgery my ... stream ... is perpetually pointed not down. After wiping the floor half a dozen times, I've given up and taken to peeing in the shower since I've needed to keep the stitches clean and dry anyway. Might as well do both at once, right?

Oh right, the diminishing control. 

Yeah, I ... can't stop it from starting sometimes now. 

Call it latchkey incontinence, but get me in proximity of running water, warmth on my hands, standing up, or the bathroom (oh gawd the bathroom), and I'm audibly whining and going into full potty-dance mode until failure within seconds. 

At least somehow the gains I've made to my bowel continence have stuck around? I've at least not had accidents there...granted, I've never been more than a few minutes away from the potty (as awkward as it is to pee in the shower first, dry off, and then sit on the potty).

My continence has slightly improved over the several weeks past the surgery, though, and I think that's in part because I've been trying my hardest to control the stream out of fear of the upwards-directed stream knocking out stitches from the inside. Still, I wouldn't trust myself outside the house without diapers on any more than I'd trust a billionaire with a bird website.

Some of this is disappointing, I admit. What else am I to write about once I can return to diapers again? I'm pretty close to the bottom already...I think...

I guess maybe I'll be surprised. I mean, I still haven't had a bowel accident outside my home. And I still don't bedwet (thankfully, for my recovery's sake). 

So, I guess I still have those things to look forward to? Taking bets on how quickly those show up. I wonder if I'll mush in my sleep at some point?

Oh and I've hinted at this in a few other posts (maybe I'll bother linking them, who knows) but just putting this out there for other folks considering a journey like this...Please please please be honest with yourself about why you want this.

Be careful if it's just because you think you are only justified wearing diapers if you're incontinent. It's okay if that's part of the reason, but it shouldn't be the only one...Because once I got hit with the guilt of having done this to myself, I was really really really grateful I wanted this at least in part because it felt right for my body. Once you need diapers, and you can't wear them, boyyyyy does it hit different. And I was able to work through that because part of me felt right about it, enough to point to the other part and say "hey, that's the trauma speaking" and help resolve those feelings.

Anywho...Much love y'all.

[Kif]

So I guess I'm back in the saddle again? 

So so soooooooooo many starts and stops on this journey, haha!

But uhm where am I at now after recovering from this last surgery?

• I can stop peeing again (mostly)
• I don't seem to lose messing control as fast (I've not maxed out, but it's more than last time), but it is still difficult to contain
• I don't wet the bed...I think...honestly, it's hard to tell a lot of the time but I think there were a few wetting incidents here and there so far? Just not any consistency.

There's a chance I'll do another surgery but it's so far out at this point (I want to investigate things, I have CAP and other plans this year, etc) that I've said "fuck it" and am just gonna move forward anyway. 

I think so far the easiest thing to get back into was wetting without realizing it. Today, I was suuuper focused on some story-related stuff (I'm gonna be sharing a Diaper Dimension story, I've posted the first chapter so far), and didn't realize until I stood up how *full* my diaper had gotten.

In a wet way, I mean. 

Well, kiiiinda. Which brings me to uh...other progress.

I may or may not have uhm mushed at some point the other day while standing, forgotten about it, and then felt surprised to find I was messy some fifteen minutes later or something. Maybe just an attention span thingy? Then again, just yesterday or so I felt surprised at how quickly it all came out in the morning...and not pushing! All these messes are generally reflexive; I don't push them out, they just happen. 

Anyways, that's been going well I guess. 

The most challenging part so far has been bedwetting...and boyyy is that one a stubborn butt.

I have started working on laying in bed and practicing wetting in that position, and using positive reinforcement like I described in this thread to ease my fear of leaking. But while that has made it easier to wet in that position I still have not had good progress. 

What I realized (and I'm gonna focus on fixing it) is that I'll wake up, check my bladder, not feel like I need to pee, and therefore go back to sleep. 

The thing is, I've learned through all this that when I'm in the lying position I don't get much urgency signals until the very very very very last possible moment. They often come out of nowhere and very strongly. But, if I make a mental note to check in and try to go, then I usually will. 

So, what I'll be doing differently from now on is:

• drinking enough to ensure I wake up in the middle of the night
• when I wake up, make myself pee

Basically...I'm gonna treat myself like I were potty-training myself in reverse; I'm gonna assume that I have to pee even if I don't feel it, and make myself pee when I wake up in the middle of the night. So...hopefully that works and gets bedwetting started back up again? My head is probably just all confused from all these starts and stops is all.

Anyway...that's it for now. Uhm, thanks for reading this far, and if you have questions or anything uh just lemme know! ?

[oznl]

22 hours ago, Kif said:

So, what I'll be doing differently from now on is:

• drinking enough to ensure I wake up in the middle of the night
• when I wake up, make myself pee

 

In my experience, yeah, do that...  One of the many paradoxes here is that I found my bladder stopped sending me messages after I while.  If I could add one thing it would be to make sure that you're already a little wet when you fall asleep.

My journey suggests that these kind of "Untraining wheels" (I place this term into the public domain, you're welcome ? ) fall away once the underlying pattern is established.

[Kif]

Aaaand so a month later I can confirm the bedwetting has begun to return. I've been wet at least twice per week for the past three weeks (one week even four times). That translates to a wet bed every 2-3 days or so, and a three-day streak at one point.

My mind is blown it has come up so fast already, but I know I've got a ways to go.

The only odd spot is I'm not consistent about being emptied out completely when I wake up with my alarm.

Sometimes it'll happen, but most of the time I'll wake up mid-morning and find I've wet at some point and go back to sleep (I wonder if I'm waking up after wetting?). Then, when I wake again near my alarm, I'll need to go again and it'll happen on its own after I stand up. I gotta work on staying in bed and doing it there, I suspect...Main challenge is I may need to make myself sit up to feel the urgency as I normally don't feel the urgency very well when lying down. Plus I suspect there's some good ol' fear of leaking at play (what do I have to lose? I'm in a diaper, wrapped in a cloth flat and plastic pants, on top of an incon bed pad...gah!)

So more work to do, but progress is ... surprisingly fast. Unlike my writing XD

[Hannah YMS]

18 hours ago, Kif said:

Aaaand so a month later I can confirm the bedwetting has begun to return. I've been wet at least twice per week for the past three weeks (one week even four times). That translates to a wet bed every 2-3 days or so, and a three-day streak at one point.

Congratulations! I've only had one nightly wetting event in the past month (but omg it was a lot). I'm looking forward to joining you in the nightly wetting ranks. Keep it up!

[Kif]

Welp...I've committed trope ?

It was around lunchtime and after a discrete check I realized I needed to change before I ate, unless I wanted to leave a lake in my seat. 

So off I toddled to the designated bathroom. 

But it was occupied. 

Thing is, I *could* use the other bathrooms but the bins are too small. I had to ask for help, and they gave me this one bathroom for when I need it. 

And somebody was in it. 

And the rumblies started to happen.

Mind you, this *never* happens around this time. I'm usually all emptied out in the morning, and when it *does* happen after that it's generally in the afternoon or just before bed.

And so I anxiously waited, wondering if my tummy was just playing tricks. 

But as more time passed it became clear it was not, and the more I began to consider my options. 

Just when I was about to say "fugg it" and head on to another bathroom, tiny bins be damned, the door opened! Grateful and in a mild state of panic I burst in, locked the door, and immediately started to strip as fast as I could. 

But it was too little, too late.

I'd just pulled down my leggings, plastic pants, and terry liner when the inevitable happened literally while standing in front of the potty. 

Dang it, I'd committed trope.

So, cursing under my breath I did what had to be done, bagged it up, and went about the rest of my day. Lunch was delicious, of course, even if it was late by an extra five minutes.

What a day, what a day. ?

Edit: Holy Christ it has been only three minutes, y'all fast to read those notifications! ?

[Kif]

So here I am, once again realizing that my leaking during the daytime has become a bit of a pattern. It's a familiar feeling, and I think like last time it means I need to start upping my diapering again. The wheel continues to turn.

But aside from that predictability, overall when I change into a new diaper there's really no telling what state it'll be in when I change it later. Case in point, another out-of-the-blue messy one today...at least this time I was already on my way to the bathroom to change and...while I could have made it if I'd hurried, I didn't see the point.

It was nice to let go and not worry about it.

It's it's nice to just...know I don't have to.

There's just something comforting about how despite the unpredictability of it all, I'll be just changing my diaper at the end of it.  Will I be soaked? Messy? Who knows! And the fact my body works this way just feels so... affirming... and makes my heart feel warm and loved.

Oh!

And all that gushy stuff aside, I gotta again harp on how useful having a thin changing mat is...Like, if you have to take off your pants (and shoes) it's nice to step onto something clean besides the bathroom floor. Same goes for messy changes, when you can't set your purse on the potty cover! Is sucha nice tool to have in your changing bag.

[Kif]

Another update of a kind, I suppose!

So CAP happened, and it went really well! Did not have any messy accidents on account of struggling to stay hydrated or consume fiber. I get what y'all mean by needing to push...heck I was craving veggies and couldn't be happier to return to my regular diet and hydration levels.

One thing I didn't expect though, was that despite struggling with hydration at times I'd have big unexpected floods. And the fact I was completely unable to stop them (or at best reduce to dribble for a few seconds) really hammered in how much my continence has changed.

In one case, I was flagged by the TSA in the diaper area...and while the pat-down was not great, they were pretty respectful of it and I was honestly more embarrassed that I didn't realize I was wet when I went through the line.

And in many many other cases, I felt really anxious standing up to stretch my legs on the plane because those floods would happen and I could only pack so many diapers and changes of clothes (which, btw, extended to much of the trip). 

So travel really sucks when you're incontinent. But it's okay, I managed it successfully and 99% of my life is spent with my feet on the ground anyways.

Last bit I wanted to discuss was bedwetting. I'm going to try out the the program I summarized in this other thread, which I've now summarized for your convenience in table-form here:

	Phase 1: Reward Wet Nights	Phase 2: Reward With Variability	Phase 3: Remove Alarm	Phase 4: Remove Reward / Raise Bar:
Goal	Awake wet every morning	Awake wet every morning, despite random conditions	Awake wet most of the time without alarm	Awake without reward or alarm
Reward Condition	Wet before alarm, Wet after alarm	Wet before alarm, Wet after alarm	Wet before alarm, Wet after alarm	(varies)
Punishment Condition	Not wetting with alarm	Not wetting with alarm	Not wetting	Not wetting
Stop Condition	1 month wet every morning	1 month wet every morning	can wet without the alarm 50% of tries, and	Wetting 75% of time (6 nights/week)
			1 alarm per week, and
			2 week streak
			12 weeks effort minimum
Progression	(continue as-is)	(continue as-is)	Pick one night without the alarm	Reward only when wet in sleep
			Every Two weeks, increase the count by one	Reward when wet 2, 3, etc nights in a row
			Don't progress if 4 weeks pass without wetting the alarm-off night

It's a bit vague to me how to treat the punishment condition in phases 3 and 4, since we're now dealing with probability in the success criteria rather than a binary yes/no being fulfilled. And I also have no idea how phase 4 is supposed to work if you are only wetting without the alarm 50% of the time going into it. Any suggestions are welcome there!

Otherwise I thought quite a bit on the reward in my case...initially I was thinking just putting stars on the chart would be good...But it's a bad idea because removing the reward would also remove reporting. Food is also a bad idea in-general for many reasons, and the reward (and punishment) must be quick and simple to administer every morning.

So, I came up with a good one other Littles might like: Legos!

• If the success condition is met, then I get to build ONE more step in the set.
• If the punishment condition is met, then I have to UNDO the previous step. 
• For vague/probability conditions later (50% of alarm-off nights are wet) not being met, then I simply don't build or undo a step.

I love to see things come together (and hate to see them come apart), and the reward is tactile and experiential. So, I feel excited about it and look forward to giving it a try!

For tracking, I've decided to print out and physically fill out / plan each week since later steps will e.g. have me choosing random days in the week to not use the alarm etc. I can simply attach an outcome to the physical roll of dice and fill it out once at the beginning of the week, which keeps the system suuuper simple.

I also have a hubby to sleep with so I can't just go to bed completely unprotected, so I vary how much diapering I wear (just disposable, disposable + cloth, all cloth), and whether I sleep on an additional incontinence pad or not (the mattress itself will *always* have a cover...the pad is for additional ease of mind); varying these alone should be enough to make me uncomfortable at night without too much risk disturbing my partner's sleep.

I've attached a PDF for those that want to follow along.

Anyway, that was a lot so if you've stuck around you have my thanks! Lemme know if you read/liked this, it helps me know y'all still want to see this kind of content. Otherwise, take care and good luck in your own journey!

UntrainingWorksheet.pdf

[Hannah YMS]

On 4/8/2023 at 2:14 AM, Kif said:

Another update of a kind, I suppose!

So CAP happened, and it went really well! Did not have any messy accidents on account of struggling to stay hydrated or consume fiber. I get what y'all mean by needing to push...heck I was craving veggies and couldn't be happier to return to my regular diet and hydration levels.

One thing I didn't expect though, was that despite struggling with hydration at times I'd have big unexpected floods. And the fact I was completely unable to stop them (or at best reduce to dribble for a few seconds) really hammered in how much my continence has changed.

In one case, I was flagged by the TSA in the diaper area...and while the pat-down was not great, they were pretty respectful of it and I was honestly more embarrassed that I didn't realize I was wet when I went through the line.

And in many many other cases, I felt really anxious standing up to stretch my legs on the plane because those floods would happen and I could only pack so many diapers and changes of clothes (which, btw, extended to much of the trip). 

So travel really sucks when you're incontinent. But it's okay, I managed it successfully and 99% of my life is spent with my feet on the ground anyways.

Last bit I wanted to discuss was bedwetting. I'm going to try out the the program I summarized in this other thread, which I've now summarized for your convenience in table-form here:

	Phase 1: Reward Wet Nights	Phase 2: Reward With Variability	Phase 3: Remove Alarm	Phase 4: Remove Reward / Raise Bar:
Goal	Awake wet every morning	Awake wet every morning, despite random conditions	Awake wet most of the time without alarm	Awake without reward or alarm
Reward Condition	Wet before alarm, Wet after alarm	Wet before alarm, Wet after alarm	Wet before alarm, Wet after alarm	(varies)
Punishment Condition	Not wetting with alarm	Not wetting with alarm	Not wetting	Not wetting
Stop Condition	1 month wet every morning	1 month wet every morning	can wet without the alarm 50% of tries, and	Wetting 75% of time (6 nights/week)
			1 alarm per week, and
			2 week streak
			12 weeks effort minimum
Progression	(continue as-is)	(continue as-is)	Pick one night without the alarm	Reward only when wet in sleep
			Every Two weeks, increase the count by one	Reward when wet 2, 3, etc nights in a row
			Don't progress if 4 weeks pass without wetting the alarm-off night

It's a bit vague to me how to treat the punishment condition in phases 3 and 4, since we're now dealing with probability in the success criteria rather than a binary yes/no being fulfilled. And I also have no idea how phase 4 is supposed to work if you are only wetting without the alarm 50% of the time going into it. Any suggestions are welcome there!

Otherwise I thought quite a bit on the reward in my case...initially I was thinking just putting stars on the chart would be good...But it's a bad idea because removing the reward would also remove reporting. Food is also a bad idea in-general for many reasons, and the reward (and punishment) must be quick and simple to administer every morning.

So, I came up with a good one other Littles might like: Legos!

• If the success condition is met, then I get to build ONE more step in the set.
• If the punishment condition is met, then I have to UNDO the previous step. 
• For vague/probability conditions later (50% of alarm-off nights are wet) not being met, then I simply don't build or undo a step.

I love to see things come together (and hate to see them come apart), and the reward is tactile and experiential. So, I feel excited about it and look forward to giving it a try!

For tracking, I've decided to print out and physically fill out / plan each week since later steps will e.g. have me choosing random days in the week to not use the alarm etc. I can simply attach an outcome to the physical roll of dice and fill it out once at the beginning of the week, which keeps the system suuuper simple.

I also have a hubby to sleep with so I can't just go to bed completely unprotected, so I vary how much diapering I wear (just disposable, disposable + cloth, all cloth), and whether I sleep on an additional incontinence pad or not (the mattress itself will *always* have a cover...the pad is for additional ease of mind); varying these alone should be enough to make me uncomfortable at night without too much risk disturbing my partner's sleep.

I've attached a PDF for those that want to follow along.

Anyway, that was a lot so if you've stuck around you have my thanks! Lemme know if you read/liked this, it helps me know y'all still want to see this kind of content. Otherwise, take care and good luck in your own journey!

UntrainingWorksheet.pdf 21.22 kB · 9 downloads

That is a really neat take on this process. Are you on the bedwetting progression track with this or just for general untraining?

[Kif]

6 hours ago, jonbearab said:

That is a really neat take on this process. Are you on the bedwetting progression track with this or just for general untraining?

Thanks! I can't take credit for the process, but it is a bedwetting progression track.

[Kif]

Had a weird rare moment this morning. 

Was feeling down and decided exploring my feelings would be a fun idea. 
And my feelings were like "let's try to potty train" and I think "okay let's change but let's keep my diaper on just in case".

Do the diaper change and less than thirty minutes later decide "nah it'd be smarter to have something I can pull down quickly" so I make my way to the bedroom and take it off. Have been trying to not wet myself at this point. 

Guess what. 
I bet you woooOOOOooonnnn't. 

Yeah I was wet. 
I was 100% confident I was dry, it felt dry, I was imagining putting the same diaper back on when I eventually changed my mind later. I had this whole plan, daresay this whole vision in my head. 

Nope. Obvious yellow bulging patches where I'd somehow had an accident...a moderate one, not a few drops.

Was so shocked I literally yelped "What the F**K?!" out-loud.

Anyway yes eventually I changed my mind less than a few hours of undies later. 
And no, I didn't use the already-wet-very-cold diaper. 

Oh and I abandoned the bedwetting guide thing...just went full comfort and have been wetting at night just fine without alarms. The comfort route is the way to go...lemme know if you want me to write more on it.

Otherwise cheers!

[Hannah YMS]

On 8/30/2023 at 7:14 AM, Kif said:

And my feelings were like "let's try to potty train" and I think "okay let's change but let's keep my diaper on just in case".

Kif, you know as well as anyone else on here knows, this way lies madness. 😂

On 8/30/2023 at 7:14 AM, Kif said:

The comfort route is the way to go...lemme know if you want me to write more on it.

Yes, please!

[Kif]

34 minutes ago, Hannah YMS said:

Kif, you know as well as anyone else on here knows, this way lies madness. 😂

Thanks! Moody brain be what it be 🤣

34 minutes ago, Hannah YMS said:

Yes, please!

Okay here goes!

So I followed 

and last I wrote, it was going really well. 

Here's what worked great:

• guaranteed to wake up and build a habit
• challenges what is/isn't comfortable
• feels methodical and focused

But here's where things stopped working:

• waking up sucks, and you do that for months. After a while, you just need a break; getting that sleep feels like a god-send
• challenging yourself to wet when you expect to leak is stressful and ultimately while I got better at it, I couldn't overcome it consistently enough
• while it felt methodical and focused, even with the randomness the routine started to eventually feel quite bland and pushing through that was very difficult
• eventually you don't notice the alarm going off and dismiss it in your sleep. this became a huuuge issue and made a lot of the stuff phase 2-3 not work anymore. (though...I just recalled I might need to check how close my phone is to my watch...could be that the alarm actually wasn't going off due to bluetooth distances, as I kept my phone in the other room after one point)

The one thing that I did ultimately find worked well for me was variety.

Currently I get the best results in phase 2, without the alarms; e.g. I alternate between cloth diapers and cloth + disposable diapers. There's no pattern to that, I just change it up when I feel like it. If I stick with one too long, I start to wake up dry. Both are pretty comfortable, they're just slightly different in feel of cloth vs disposable. 

Will keep up with this and see where it goes. 

Do I need to as far as babykeiff was recommending? Nah. 

But I think that longer-term there was a nugget of truth in their stance of keeping things comfortable. And there was a nugget of truth in mine. 

Will keep at it and see how things go.

[Hannah YMS]

7 minutes ago, Kif said:

Thanks! Moody brain be what it be 🤣

Okay here goes!

So I followed 

and last I wrote, it was going really well. 

Here's what worked great:

• guaranteed to wake up and build a habit
• challenges what is/isn't comfortable
• feels methodical and focused

But here's where things stopped working:

• waking up sucks, and you do that for months. After a while, you just need a break; getting that sleep feels like a god-send
• challenging yourself to wet when you expect to leak is stressful and ultimately while I got better at it, I couldn't overcome it consistently enough
• while it felt methodical and focused, even with the randomness the routine started to eventually feel quite bland and pushing through that was very difficult

The one thing that I did ultimately find worked well for me was variety.

Currently I get the best results in phase 2, without the alarms; e.g. I alternate between cloth diapers and cloth + disposable diapers. There's no pattern to that, I just change it up when I feel like it. If I stick with one too long, I start to wake up dry. Both are pretty comfortable, they're just slightly different in feel of cloth vs disposable. 

Will keep up with this and see where it goes. 

Do I need to as far as babykeiff was recommending? Nah. 

But I think that longer-term there was a nugget of truth in their stance of keeping things comfortable. And there was a nugget of truth in mine. 

Will keep at it and see how things go.

Aha! Thank you! Forgot about that.

7 minutes ago, Kif said:

Thanks! Moody brain be what it be 🤣

I hate to admit I know exactly what you're talking (I honestly wish I didn't, my life would be so much easier). Bipolar is a real bitch (not saying you have bipolar, just saying that's how I know all too well what moody brain be like).

Feeling better or still in a funk?

[Kif]

Shoot...Okay I'm gonna try moving my phone closer and see if maybe the alarm wasn't going off at all. IF that was actually the problem (not me dismissing it in my sleep) then I may continue where I left off and report back 🤦‍♀️

[Hannah YMS]

38 minutes ago, Kif said:

Shoot...Okay I'm gonna try moving my phone closer and see if maybe the alarm wasn't going off at all. IF that was actually the problem (not me dismissing it in my sleep) then I may continue where I left off and report back 🤦‍♀️

Good luck!