Ascension

[Daphne Sissy]

Right I understand there's going to be alot of things said, first and formost please feel free to express yourself. But try not to take offence, after all I am no follower of relgion.

My point is this

The myths of magic and God's, all of which have occured in the past. Be the myth derived from mutations in the human genome, or be they actual beings. The astral plane is an existing force, it houses all of the magik long ago removed from this plane.

Here you can find dragons, who have become the loyal gaurdians to this realm. Next year it all comes full circle once more, and the astral plane becomes part of the earth again. The new area being called Ascension, here you can achieve more spiritually.

How many of you believe in magik?

How many believe in God?

After answering this two questions, please feel free to respond.

[Daphne Sissy]

But they are mind based powers, using the power of intellect rather than the power of the earth.

Using those is simply a matter of time, and the understanding that mankind survives long enough.

I'm talking about magik as practiced by such legends as Merlin and Morganna, the old style magik not the pagan or Wiccan rip off.

[Scarth]

But they are mind based powers, using the power of intellect rather than the power of the earth.

Using those is simply a matter of time, and the understanding that mankind survives long enough.

I'm talking about magik as practiced by such legends as Merlin and Morganna, the old style magik not the pagan or Wiccan rip off.

I personal beleive that Magik is sience that we dont know how it works yet.

[Daphne Sissy]

That's an intresting thought, my gf had a good one to.

What if gods were localised, as in the case of the Inca and Ancient Egyptians?

As there is little evidence for the incan tribes remaining, it would suggest some form of mass movement. The Gods they worshipped, simply decided that they had performed well. This allowed them to acheive total enlightenment, and they ascended.

If this were indeed the case, then England and America have both been denined the right to ascend. America being broken apart by the settlers, and England havign it's druidic gods removed by force.

Something to think about?

[LightFolf]

I'm not entirely sure what exactly I believe in. I think it's actually easier for me to tackle the god question.

In the Christian sense, I don't believe in God. I don't believe there is some great male-aligned figure lording over all of our lives, at least not in the sense that I have heard it talked about by many.

I do believe there is some sort of higher order (I hesitate to call it a higher power) to things, but something very intangible that we don't really have words to describe, and even the wordless concepts within our own minds don't quite describe it. I would consider Karma to be part of this force.

If this is god, then god resides in all of us, and in everything, living or inanimate, the air we breathe, simply everything. I believe that we have souls, and by extension ghosts. I 'theorize' that souls are an energy form that has yet to be really measured by scientific means.

I believe in the strange and unexplained, although I've never called it magick, magic, mahdjihckk, or whatever the term. I've just simply accepted it as something that is. Pyrokinesis, telekinesis, telepathy, clairvoyance, etc, are the main things that I feel confident really do exist. I suppose I'm more spiritual in some of my views on these things, though. There is a '6th' sense of some sort, although I think the scope of it is broader than what most people consider it to be. Some people see auras, some people hear voices, some people see other things or spirits, some people feel presences. I consider myself to have the last ability, although I would tend to think it's rather weak, as I don't feel any sort of 'residue' of a presence, only something immediate, and I can't really tell anything about it, it's just sortof "Oh, there was something here just now. Yup. I have no idea what it was." Although I suppose I might have some sort of bizarre nerve disorder, too, which accounts for the odd feelings I get from time to time.

While there are scientific reasonings behind a lot of things happening--natural disasters, global warming, etc--I have to wonder if they're symbolic of something, especially when they seem to strike the same part of the world with higher frequency than before. What it means, I'm not entirely sure, although I think it might be a suggestion by natural forces that things are not going in the right direction.

Part of me wants to believe that there will be some sort of major change or event, giving way to heightened awarenesses and such, but at this point I still feel like it's something from a story. I tend to move slowly in coming to decisions on...I guess I could say the metaphysical, but I think that's too narrow. I don't expect to figure it all out in this life, and I don't need to. I simply like to know, and I figure I've got at least one more lifetime ahead of me...and even if I never work it all out, that's not really important. After all, there are some things I would rather not know.

[Daphne Sissy]

As far as Relgion goes, I have no belief in any diety. It's nice to know the ins and outs, but I stil don't have the desire to worship.

On the magick train of thought, there are only four domains.

Earth: Our domain, where we have the rules

]Astaral: The place where magick currently resides

Ascension: The next plane of enlightenment

Dream: The power to manipulate and control dreams, from within the domain.

Anything beyond this is a realm, to which different rules and lords apply. For example the shadow realm, and fae kingdom.

And Magik is the orginal spelling, before the conversion to Latin and the to English. Magik being the druidic name for the power, Merlin and Morgana both having studied the druidic lores.

Pagan and Wiccan along with the newer fads, rely on magick which is often of black descent. Relying heavely on pentagrams (Satan signs), and rituals. Both of which are not at all required, the practice of Magik relys upon the earth spirit Gia, Ghia or Gaia.

[Daphne Sissy]

So the fact that witched throughout any form of relgion, and Pagan and wicca do fall into the relgion catageory. Witches and warlocks do indeed refer to themselves as white or black, be it in any tense past or present.

There are always two sides to everything, dark and light. Without one you can not have the other, and using pentagrams is by the way dark. Black is rules in favour of power with a heavy price, where as the path of light gives little reward but offers you inner peace.

This is the most common lore in magik practice, and I can't believe that you are so naive to have over looked it. Altough the earth spirit does provide the various power, she does requires at least some balance.

Voodoo being the darkest of them all, Wican and Pagan both having dark sides to them. Why else would you burn a man/woman alive for world peace, and how do you explain the myth of Morgana?

There is also the path of both worlds, very few have walked it. And very few manage to stick to it, choosing either form by free will. Infact there is currently only one person who has walked it, and they shall walk it forever.

Ghia being exempt fro msuch choices, being a spirit and having the power of a god.

There is good and evil in the world, overlooking this obvious fact will not make it go away.

[DollyDiaper]

I've felt 'unqualified' to add to this topic until now but I've been following it with interest to see if I can learn anything.

I'm not trying to trivialise or simplify the possible existence of 'black' V 'white' magic (sp? I spell it the way I know it) but I find the connotations problematic, i.e:-

White = Good

Black = Bad

I'm glad to see Seph doesn't use this equation as I can't help thinking it has very sinister roots in terms of human history. Shades of white supremacy?

But hey, what do I know?

Dolly

[Daphne Sissy]

you are correct in the key, but it still doesn't change the fact. There is good and bad in the world, no one sees it but it does occur.

Well at least no one ever see the good, with the news constantly focasing on the bad things.

Black or white, you must choose a path.

If you don't one si decided for you, and it is never the option you wish.

[LightFolf]

I have to agree that wicca/paganism/witchcraft is not inherintly good or evil, it's what you do with it. The traditional labels of "black" and "white" magic I think relate more to the way in which magic is used, but there are certainly some forces which are simply malevolent.

I'm quite aware of the fact that there are negative forces in the world. I can feel them, and I can see them at work. It's yin and yang, light and shadow: one cannot exist without the other.

However, pentacles and pentagrams are NOT a sign of evil. To say that there is simply one "right" way and one "wrong" way is to oversimplify things, and to me smacks of Christian-Crusader supremacy. (Please note that I think Christianity teaches some great things, I just don't agree with the faith on a personal level.) Often times I have experienced people holding to a belief that if you're not with them, you're wrong, and against them.

My understanding is that a pentagram with the point up is either neutral or else actually a sign of protection. A pentagram with the point down (2 points at the top) is an inversion, and can symbolize negative (a better term than "black" I think) magic. I would like to suggest the following logic (which I'm sure could be flawed in some way): how can a symbol and its inversion, or its negation, both be evil? The inverted cross is a sign of some sort of satinists or devil worshippers (I don't know the details)...so the pentagram in one of its directions should be good.

I'm not pagan or wicca myself, and don't have a whole lot of interest in it anymore, but I do like its ties to nature and the natural world. I have at least one friend who is Christian Wicca. While she has had to work some things out on the Christian side of things, there are no conflicts on the Wicca side of things.

I don't know much about Voodoo, but from what I understand, most of the conception of it being evil and about raising the dead is a product of Hollywood and close-minded fundamentalists who considered anything different from their religion to be evil in some way. There are some confusing aspects to it, to be sure, but I don't think we can so easily condemn every practitioner of a given belief system.

And to look at the medieval examples of human sacrifice and such... Well, first, later generations have most likely realized the err of human sacrifice (and many sacrifices of living things, although I know some do occurr, chickens for example). Secondly, often times it only takes a couple of bad examples to brand an entire group as evil. To look at the Sodom and Gomorrah story, some male citizens of one of the cities wanted to have sexual relations with the male angels, and while the moral there was probably supposed to be "don't proposition somebody's guests for sex" it turned into "homos are evil." By a similar token, many people now believe Muslims to be evil, because several terrorists called themselves Muslim--when the terrorists were followers of a bastardized version of the faith.

One of the things I've picked up from Buddhism, is that there are many paths to the same thing. While usually it's in reference to enlightenment, it really does apply to just about anything. Some paths take longer, and some paths just don't lead there at all, but there is more than one "right" way. I think many people are uncomfortable with that concept because it makes the world more complicated, and it means that there is a grey area. After all, people are all good and bad in varying degrees.

I hope I haven't come across as too didactic, or stated my beliefs too often as facts. As humans, we tend to do that sort of thing frequently. There are things that we "know" that we don't have proof for, our beliefs, but we often state them as fact, which I think leads to a lot of disagreements. I've been guilty of it myself. The things that I "know," that are the basis for my beliefs are almost entirely personal incidents that probably don't have the same meaning for other people.

[Daphne Sissy]

Wow you're all so easy to wind up!

First of all none of you seem to be able to grasp the simple idea, of black vs white Good Vs Evil. It's a simple concept really, dark magik is black magik. Just look at Voodoo, it's the darkest one out there. Requiring sacrafice and blood to get the whole thing started, I take you've not read any books on the subject?

There mst be balance, there is no fine line to walk. Unless you know how to find it, and if you do you're a good witch/warlock. But it is very hard to walk it, I'm glad I'm turning heads with this one. As just like relgion it seems to have gotten lost, and become the latest craze. The idea once again became the institution, with little teens taking up a long lost mantle.

If you can't be bothered to look at the truth, don't walk into the darkness.

[Daphne Sissy]

There's alot of anger in your reply, you have no idea with what you are dealing. Just because they follow a relgion does not mean it's the way, just because you've read a book does not make you knowledgable.

You seem to have forgotten one simple thing, everyone has the right to free speech. And this was just a simple test, to see if the mind of others is open. It would appear that most minds are closed to the truth, that gods and goddesses are infact neither good nor evil. The only time you get good and evil is in self made idols, such as Baron Samedi.

I'll tell you waht open your mind, walk the path I've walked and then pass judgement on me. Unti lthen be quite, you refuse to believe that the world is black and white. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but in every action you make it's either right or wrong.

Next year the biggest magical event in history is going to blow you mind apart, but you'l not see as you seem to have shoved you head up your bum.

Just because you think it is right, does not make it so. The future is coming and your hear arguing an non existant point, good vs evil black vs white. Whatever you want to call it, you have taken a side. I'm not saying black is beyond redemption but I am saying it's evil I know i practice it. My fiance is a white witch, and I say good for her. But because I practice black does not make an evil person, it just means I have access to more power and ability.

You seem to have missed the point of this conversation, and in that you missed the reason. I didn't come to here to argue with teenagers, or fools with closed minds I came here to talk about the future. After all you are envolved in it, but you seem to want avoid the real issue.

If fighting with me in some small way is giving you joy, then please continue I'm not going to back down. After all I haveeternity to watch you burn on the shores of Hades, for those of you who don't know read a book on Greek gods.

I am well educated no fool, and to the point very well read. I don't need alters and I'm no witch or warlock I'm me, I'm just a mortal doing immortal things. And if you deny that fact then it is upto you, but next year come Ascension. You'll see who has taken the correct path, and who has given up there soul for power.

Take my advice don't mess with things you don't understand not every answer comes from a book. But is a good starting point, you read and read another then tell me the contradictions of the first book. Me I'll read another book, then I'll read the Karishna maybe even the bible. I don't follow relgion but is nice to be educated incase people like you, come along and say "You don't know about me". In truth I don't and given your past comments, I wouldn't want to know you.

Your young and have not yet learnt the true meaning of the soul, I doubt you even know the true name of your soul or it's past.

Do everyone a favour, get over yourself.

p.s

Please inform me at which point did I say colour of skin mattered?

You seem to have included a racial issue that does not exist, and night is not black it's navy blue and blended with purple. Look in a science book. Besides there's no such colour as black, it's a shade not a colour and the complete abscence of light.

[DollyDiaper]

The aggression and arrogance in this post makes me very sad

There's alot of anger in your reply, you have no idea with what you are dealing. Just because they follow a relgion does not mean it's the way, just because you've read a book does not make you knowledgable.

You seem to have forgotten one simple thing, everyone has the right to free speech. And this was just a simple test, to see if the mind of others is open. It would appear that most minds are closed to the truth, that gods and goddesses are infact neither good nor evil. The only time you get good and evil is in self made idols, such as Baron Samedi.

I'll tell you waht open your mind, walk the path I've walked and then pass judgement on me. Unti lthen be quite, you refuse to believe that the world is black and white. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but in every action you make it's either right or wrong.

Next year the biggest magical event in history is going to blow you mind apart, but you'l not see as you seem to have shoved you head up your bum.

Just because you think it is right, does not make it so. The future is coming and your hear arguing an non existant point, good vs evil black vs white. Whatever you want to call it, you have taken a side. I'm not saying black is beyond redemption but I am saying it's evil I know i practice it. My fiance is a white witch, and I say good for her. But because I practice black does not make an evil person, it just means I have access to more power and ability.

You seem to have missed the point of this conversation, and in that you missed the reason. I didn't come to here to argue with teenagers, or fools with closed minds I came here to talk about the future. After all you are envolved in it, but you seem to want avoid the real issue.

If fighting with me in some small way is giving you joy, then please continue I'm not going to back down. After all I haveeternity to watch you burn on the shores of Hades, for those of you who don't know read a book on Greek gods.

I am well educated no fool, and to the point very well read. I don't need alters and I'm no witch or warlock I'm me, I'm just a mortal doing immortal things. And if you deny that fact then it is upto you, but next year come Ascension. You'll see who has taken the correct path, and who has given up there soul for power.

Take my advice don't mess with things you don't understand not every answer comes from a book. But is a good starting point, you read and read another then tell me the contradictions of the first book. Me I'll read another book, then I'll read the Karishna maybe even the bible. I don't follow relgion but is nice to be educated incase people like you, come along and say "You don't know about me". In truth I don't and given your past comments, I wouldn't want to know you.

Your young and have not yet learnt the true meaning of the soul, I doubt you even know the true name of your soul or it's past.

Do everyone a favour, get over yourself.

p.s

Please inform me at which point did I say colour of skin mattered?

You seem to have included a racial issue that does not exist, and night is not black it's navy blue and blended with purple. Look in a science book. Besides there's no such colour as black, it's a shade not a colour and the complete abscence of light.

[Momma Rosie]

Read the whole topic before you jump into this one. I am Pagan/Wiccan, I know people who are satanists and people who do voodoo, and not all of them are evil at all. Its the heart of the person who performs it, not the beliefs itself.

But before anyone says anything else, the views in this thread do not reflect upon the rest of the people on the board and should not be taken personally in anyway. if anyone starts flaming in this thread I will lock and/or delete it if requested by the person who started the thread or the owner of Daily Diapers.

Again.

Read everything first before you post.

[Pipsqueak]

At the risk of getting jumped on and slapped ... everybody needs to calm down. We are all entitled to our opinions and we should all respect the rights of others to have those opinions whether we agree with them or not. When people believe strongly enough in something you CANNOT change their opinion. And when it comes to religion of ANY kind, you're bound to have very strong beliefs being put forward.

And Daphne, if you are going to dismiss Seph's ideas outright, what is the point of starting a thread to discuss the topic? You don't agree with him so you are insulting him by suggesting he's too young to know what he's talking about. His posts are well thought out and clearly show that he has some knowledge of the topic. It appears to me that his only crime is that he doesn't agree with you. That is his right, just as it is yours to disagree with him.

Now everybody go sit in the corner for five minutes.

[DollyDiaper]

An excellent post in my opinion. I'd been following this topic with interest to see if it could teach me more about these beliefs.

I was sad. Now I'm more optimistic, thanks Pipsqueak.

[Daphne Sissy]

The aggression and arrogance in this post makes me very sad 

Yes but can you blame me, I was attacked. The topic was about relgion as a whole and your belief in magik, instead I got ambushed.

If you don't want to answer the true question, then please don't reply. I already stated at the start of the topic, my views are going to hurt. But try not to take offence, it was posted and then I got attacked for soemthing I didn't even say about race.

Sorry but I have the right to defend myself.

I know his posts were well thought out, but when you try to give a simple response it doesn't always come out the way you wanted it to, and for that I am sorry. But when people tell that I need to adjust my view, simply because it doesn't agree with there's this is where I draw the line.

And I would an am willing to listen to any suggestions, but to leap on me like that is shameful.

So I ask the questions again

Do you beleive in magik?

Do you believe in a god/goddess?

Ad again I appologies to all who took offence, but not to Seph.

[Daphne Sissy]

Read the whole topic before you jump into this one. I am Pagan/Wiccan, I know people who are satanists and people who do voodoo, and not all of them are evil at all. Its the heart of the person who performs it, not the beliefs itself.

But before anyone says anything else, the views in this thread do not reflect upon the rest of the people on the board and should not be taken personally in anyway. if anyone starts flaming in this thread I will lock and/or delete it if requested by the person who started the thread or the owner of Daily Diapers.

Again.

Read everything first before you post.

I'm starting to think you may as well delete it, it would be less hassle. People don;t want to listen, and I'm tired of trying to get my point across.

[DollyDiaper]

I'm starting to think you may as well delete it, it would be less hassle. People don;t want to listen, and I'm tired of trying to get my point across.

I think it would be a real shame to lock or delete this thread.

In my opinion, as long as contributors just debate (for/against/undecided/other viewpoint etc) when replying to a post, rather than make derogatory references to the poster then I think it would make interesting reading.

It would be good to see the subject broadened to include other belief systems, i.e. respond to the questions that Daphne posed at the start of the thread.

I may not agree with everything or anything posted so far but I, for one, am listening and learning about other ways of seeing.

I think Pipsqueak may have the answer above, time out could be a good compromise.

Dolly

[Seph]

Well you need to read, cause I didn't accuse you of racism, or say that the night was black. You were making out that dark=evil, and I merely pointed out both of these were dark.

Anyways, apart from that, you can have your thread. And you can also kiss my arse as I leave it, and remove all my old posts.

[drynot]

It looks really one sided without Seph's posts. Too bad they were deleted.

[Daphne Sissy]

I think it would be a real shame to lock or delete this thread.

In my opinion, as long as contributors just debate (for/against/undecided/other viewpoint etc) when replying to a post, rather than

[LightFolf]

To speak simply for myself, I wish to say that my initial posting started (or it was at least my intention) with answering the first questions posed, and later I discussed some of the things that had been discussed since then, in the way any conversation may evolve over time.

I don't really feel like any particular criticisms or comments to the negavive apply to me, but feel free to let me know privately (elektrikhd@gmail.com) if you take issue with something I've said, and I can either explain what I meant, or come to understand why it bothered you, or both.

The one thing I would ask, is not to be told that one person is "right" and I am "wrong." These are beliefs: we have no physical "proof" even though each of us knows our beliefs to be true within our own hearts. As I said previously, I may talk about my beliefs as if they're facts, but I try not to. The one thing I don't do, is say "this is how it is, and if you don't agree, you're wrong."

Anyway, I don't want to go on as long as I have previously. This can be a very interesting discussion topic and I hope this is a discussion that will continue to function. I wasn't really aware initially, or else I forgot, that future events was part of the focus, but I'm happy to discuss those, too (just so long as nobody tells me I'm wrong because I do or don't believe something).

[DollyDiaper]

so let me get this straight, you think there is another realm with dragons guarding it? rofl...

Oh dear, and here was I hoping to see/take part in a reasoned debate on an interesting subject.

Well thought out contribution, not.

Dolly, sad again.

[Pipsqueak]

Dolly, sad again.

Go to the cosy corner, Dolly! Go to the cosy corner!