Is This Stealing?

[diaprbayb]

Perhaps I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but it had nothing to do with the discussion on ethics and morality of using an open wireless access point. To me it was off topic. I don't think many people looking for wireless security advice would be searching a diaper site for advice. It is more of a scare mongering statement anyhow. Only through a bit of hacking work could a person gain control / access to your computer if it was on an open AP. At the same time a person with the ability to do so more than likely knows how to punch a hole through a secured AP so it's a moot point.

InD

My input was inresponse to the Question of "is it stealing?" and to other responses that "Hey as long as it dosen't cost anybody anything. "

[AutieAB]

I'm aware of those who have their Wi-Fi connections password protected in order to prevent those who want to use their signals to anonymously gain access to dicey websites, such as child porn sites, terrorists sites, etc.

That's the crux of the matter for me, it's not that people could *access* the unsecured network, it's what they could *do* with that access. In the UK, the owner of the connection is ultimately responsible for how it's used and it would be *very* risky ground trying to use the "it wasn't me, Your Honour" defence if you found yourself in court for something that your neighbour did, be it visiting 'dodgy' websites or downloading a library's worth of films from Limewire.

That said, ISPs have to take some responsibility. They have to remember that most of their customers aren't tech-savvy enough to understand the complexities of Wifi (and it *is* complex) and make it easier for them to secure their connections without having to mess with passcodes, keys and the likes. Either that or go back to wires - they more reliable, more secure and faster.

[DollyDiaper]

As is probably clear from this thread, I'm not exactly tech-savvy, so could someone please explain this contributor's point in the BBC Debate on the subject:-

"I have used my daft neighbours wifi connection in the past, but I took a guess at the router login and managed to get in to the administration part. I had a look who else had been accessing his wifi and about half the street had been using it because I recognised their names on the connection list."

Glenn Jones, oxford

Does this mean there's a record of whoever tunes into your wifi for nefarious purposes?

D lly

[AutieAB]

Does this mean there's a record of whoever tunes into your wifi for nefarious purposes?

Yes and no.

It's highly unlikely that the router/modem keeps a log of every access, even with just legit users, that would get very big, very quickly. However, it will keep (and almost certainly make available to the admin user) something called the DHCP table. That lists all currently connected computers by address and more importantly in this case, the name of the computer. It might, depending on some settings, show people who were using it within the last 24-48 hours so so (until the 'lease' given by the modem to the computer expires).

Now the thing is, most people name their computers after themselves, so yes, the contents of the DHCP table may indeed identify some of the guilty parties

[LitlAndy1]

I have wifi myself, the first thing I did was setup wep, turn off DHCP, set a proper subnet etc etc....when I got the router a few years ago it was in fact plug and play...you didn't have to do anything to get online with it. I assume this is why there are open sites out there. A good number of people out there just aren't tech-savvy as pointed out above.

As for the argument about leaving the front door unlocked...or your site open...if you leave your door unlocked and you do get robbed...did you know most insurance companies won't cover your losses? It's the owners resposibility to secure thier house....my feeling goes also with wifi...if your system gets used by an outside source for the wrong things, it's your own fault. The ISP's could help though by maybe posting more faq's or emails to the client to let them know how important it is to secure their router and what concequences there might be if any.

Lastly an interesting observation I made while playing with my pocket PC and great little program called WiFiFoThumb (or somthing like that). While taking my 15 min. drive to work my pocket PC picked up just over 200 wifi connections. Of the 200 about 40 were totally open. I think people are starting to wake up and secure their networks which is good.

Cheers n hugggies

LitlAndy

[DollyDiaper]

Thanks for the explanation Autie, I think I understand now.

By the way, my lapdog isn't called Dolly

D lly

[DiaperSoSoftly]

Get 2 things out of the way now. One, I do have a wireless router setup. Two, I have MAC address filtering, Encryption, and do NOT broadcast my SSID(network name).

My view on it is that if you don't bother to secure your router, and someone does get access through it, it is your fault. Now if someone tries to 'hack' into your router to gain access after you secured it, then they are committing theft. If they only log on, no 'hacking' needed, then they are being opportunistic, just like people who pick up cans on the road sides.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dill_Pickle]

Let me join on the fence....

First, if I have friends over and we are working or playing on the net, I see it as likely that I would give them access to my Wi-Fi router, which I am maintaining regardless of their presence. Thus, I am likely incurring no significant additional costs from sharing my Wi-Fi router. And yes, many Wi-Fi routers ARE being shared for nearly free....mainly by businesses that make money when you visit them and buy their wares as you surf the net.

So the value of what is taken is pretty small. On the other hand, lots of small things can add up. There is a local free paper, and a copy is yours for the taking, but if you take the box full, that is stealing.

Likewise, if you use your neighbor's Wi-Fi occasionally, or even without knowing (last time I had a Wi-Fi computer, I had to keep telling it NOT to log on, Dammit!), I don't think that's stealing. However, if your neighbor asked you to stop, and you persisted, in spite of some help to stop, in the form of a little tech support, then you ARE stealing. Likewise, if you travelled to a rich neighbor's street for the sole purpose of using his Wi-Fi connection, that might be stealing. If you have to hack a bit, or crack a non-trivial, nonobvious password, that is stealing...there is a question of intent here. There's also the question of whether a request was made to desist, and whether any effort was made to secure the router. On the other hand, there's an awful lot of the air of the bowl of fruit in the hotel lobby (or in my dentist's office)....one apple is freely offered to anyone passing by...but the whole bowl is not.

There's also the problem of securing the router, which is at least partly at the manufacturer's feet....Windows being this wildly popular but notoriously insecure operating system, and the "plug and play" mentality leading to almost all routers being shipped to a relatively ignorant public in an unsecured state. Let's ship loaded guns to children, then ask if it is immoral when someone gets hurt! Seriously, though, this requires a bit of governmental regulation. I'd argue that 128 bit encryption is woefully inadequate, just enough of a lock to prove intent and keep honest people out, not enough to keep anyone with determination from doing harm.

Note that I have ignored the problem of password proliferation....I have three or four active passwords at the moment, and although people keep trying to give me new ones, I am resisting actively. I think I would take the position that the password should be written on the router, and that physical access to the router was the same as electronic access. Anyone wanting more security could remove the password from the router box and take care of keeping it secure themselves.

[DollyDiaper]

Let me join on the fence....

First, if I have friends over and we are working or playing on the net, I see it as likely that I would give them access to my Wi-Fi router, which I am maintaining regardless of their presence. Thus, I am likely incurring no significant additional costs from sharing my Wi-Fi router.......

That's how I discovered that my wifi is protected. A friend who was staying with me tried to connect to my ISP, but even after using the security code on my Home Hub, she was still unable to pick up my signal.

I phoned BT and was completely honest and explained the situation. Their techy asked for my friend to take the phone so they could get her connected. This took around five minutes and her lapdog was connected all weekend, along with my own. I suspect they weren't bothered because I have limited access on my a/c and I've never exceeded that limit.

Welcome to the fence Dill Pickle, it's getting a bit crowded on here -

D lly

[AutieAB]

I phoned BT and was completely honest and explained the situation. Their techy asked for my friend to take the phone so they could get her connected. This took around five minutes and her lapdog was connected all weekend, along with my own. I suspect they weren't bothered because I have limited access on my a/c and I've never exceeded that limit.

Nah, they weren't bothered because it's none of their business who you allow to use it in your own home. Once the connection has entered your four walls, you can let whoever you want use it. They would get a bit tetchy if you were reselling it but letting visitors hook their laptop to your connection is something you're absolutely entitled to do.

BTW, BT are expensive. If you're out of contract with them, you might want to look at some of the alternatives there are around... I just switched and am now getting my phone + internet (with a much higher usage cap than BT), evening & weekend calls and unlimited international + free Freeview digibox for £19 a month all in...

[DollyDiaper]

Nah, they weren't bothered because it's none of their business who you allow to use it in your own home. Once the connection has entered your four walls, you can let whoever you want use it. They would get a bit tetchy if you were reselling it but letting visitors hook their laptop to your connection is something you're absolutely entitled to do.

BTW, BT are expensive. If you're out of contract with them, you might want to look at some of the alternatives there are around... I just switched and am now getting my phone + internet (with a much higher usage cap than BT), evening & weekend calls and unlimited international + free Freeview digibox for £19 a month all in...

Thanks Autie, that info would be most welcome if it wasn't for the fact that although the BT infrastructure is crap in this area, I live in a Victorian cottage, a bit 'out in the sticks' and I wouldn't contemplate a dish attached to the outside. I ripped out the only cable when I moved here, as it was NTL, which is even more expensive than BT.

I was having so much trouble with my AOL Broadband being down way more than up (they gave me emergency dial-up for when I couldn't get online, which was almost all the time) but they blamed the BT exchange for my unresolved problems. This was confirmed (off the record) by a BT engineer who came here on AOL's behalf to try and sort out the problem - he told me that a lack of investment by BT (big payouts to shareholders ) meant that the infrastructure just can't support the increase in demand.

The problems are ongoing, but at least I don't have to go through a protracted process in getting something done and they can't just pass the buck like AOL used to.

Thanks again though, your attempt to help is much appreciated.

D lly