Can You Be A Christian And Like Diapers?

[Morv]

Necros, Chibi... I am going to make an observation here. You two both are being fairly derisve, and there's no call for that. Though you are getting your dose of the pity, I'm sure you can shake it off. Someone feeling sorry for you isn't the same as being an ass and calling names. (Invisible Friends? Come on. You're just being antagonistic and not making any point by doing that.)

A reason for Christianity? How about morality. Though several of the Christians have professed their sorrow for you, I suggest that their sorrow is more misplaced than their time spent studying their religion. At worst, prayer provides a time for solemn contemplation, meditation on one's world. If spending time relfecting, whether it is in the paradigm of spending time within yourself, or in terms of a two way communication, is something you consider a bad thing, I'd rethink your position. And the lessons learned by most Christians make many pretty nice people. There are many lessons people do not learn from their religions, but that does not make the religion bad. That is a reflection on the person and their church and their religious leader. The text book is the same across the board, and it produces some spectacular results. Martin Luther King Jr., for example. Mother Teresa, for another. Being a Christian is about more than being born again and all the crap about accepting Jesus as a savior--I'm not trying to say that this is an unimportant thing for Christians, however, I believe that learning the lessons that Christianity teaches is more important.

And how about a community that can provide an emotional, intellectual, and sometimes even economic support system. The church is a communal thing, a gathering. Christianity is not about the hermit living in the cave, it is about people. During times of crisis, a church congregation should be able to provide caring support -- after all, these are people who share moral views on caring and giving aid. Chibi suggested that we should Love yourself, love your friends, love all of humanity and drop all this religion nonsense", however, "Love yourself, love your friends, love all of humanity" happeans to be the end result fo the "religion nonsense", if it is actually being followed.

Chibi also said, "Throughout history, religion has stood as an antithesis to any form of progress. It's hindered the development of mankind on almost all levels." I would challenge this statement. Scientific prograss has generally been slowed by religions in general, that I will concede. However, religion has been responsible for as much social progress as it has been hindrances. Once again, Martin Luther King Jr. How about Archbishop Desmond Tutu? Or Nelson Mandella? Civil Rights has been strongly invluenced by Christianity. Here and South Africa are the two biggest examples I can think of at the moment. I would think that this here is enough to suggest that "the development of mankind on almost all levels" has not been hindered, but at certain times in history it has produced a resistence to changes in our world view as a society.

As to athiesm, as I have studied science from various angles, I still keep coming to some point where there simply is a force simply beyond humanity. This all came from somewhere. And even if you pick up the freshest theoretical phsyics and look at some of the newest theories about, say, the beginning of the universe through the views of string theory and dimensional membrane intersection causing universe creation and the start of space and time, we still come to something that itself was created by something. The answer "well, it stimply started existing" just isn't good enough for me. And there is a point where science can explain no more.

Now, as an athiest, can you not see how someone would come to believe in a greater power, which they call god, even if you yourself do not? If you can accept that someone might reasonably come to this conclusion; and if someone says, "there must be something more powerful than me;" and if they find this ideation filled by, along with finding their personal beliefs in morality met by, a particular religion that happens to follow the teachings of a dude who we all can agree actually did exist about two thousand years ago; well then, that doesn't leave much to condemn, because that right there is a huge chunk of the nature of Christianity Just some of their rituals and a few dozen pesky additional beliefs about this dude actually believing that he was the son of god and that he did miracles, the necessity of some dance with your head in the water, and some other things. It seems to be that a few dozen beliefs like that aren't enough to condemn a religion that provides so much more for those who are in it.

Sure, it may not be how you would choose to spend your time, but as long as nobody is forcing it on you, why condemn it?

I mean, yes, I have no qualms with you being pissed at the Jehovas witnesses that stop by and want to chat with you while you're just trying to spend a morning drinking by yourself watching X-Men (that's what I was doing the last time they stopped by). I mean, hell, I find those people annoying. I also find people annoying that think that their religion is so great that they should tell everyone one about it constantly--if your damned religion is so great, let your actions show it, and let that be how you witness to people, not by telling people that they are wrong and annoying them endlessly.

Hey, wait. I get annoyed by people that are so damned certain they are right that they feel the need to tell me how I should be living my life and choosing to worship. Kind of like the way you, Chibi and Necros, feel the need to tell people how what they are doing is wrong and how they shuold change their lives. Funny, the same thing that annoys me about many preachy Evangelical Christians is the same thing that annoyed me about posts from athiests (which inspired this rant). Listen, I'm interested in what other people believe, not what they believe about what I believe -- that's a whole different conversation.

If you don't believe the same things, that's fine with me, but spend your time explaining why you believe what you do so that I may come to understand you better. If all I know about your beliefs is that they cause you to mock mine, all I have learned is that your beliefs can result in making unkind people.

This has been another Massive Post from the keyboard of Morv.

[DollyDiaper]

The Gospel According to St. Morv?

Now there's an idea to conjure with.

D lly

[diaprbayb]

What was the question?

[Necros]

Too many words Morv. Keep it simple, you didn't like us dissing religious beliefs. Now did that take so much space and time But i applaud you for the huge post, very insightful~

You strike many good points but i will stand my ground when saying that religion is over rated and humanity could do without.

You say religion only hindered humanity in science!?! Heck it stopped it dead in its tracks for years before someone finally got fed up of always blaming god for everything unexplained. Thats in essence whats STILL going on, many people are still reluctant to support scientists doing research on cloning, genetics, etc ... just because they say its not moral and that were not gods. We aren't gods but we're free to do as we please and advance in areas of science where so many people could be helped!

Ok, for the love and friendship part i guess you could be right in most cases. But my point still remains, if you would eliminate religion from this world and instead of focusing your love and friendship to "god" you would turn it towards others it would be VERY VERY awesome. Now i know religion still teaches to love everyone and have friendship and stuff like that, but theirs still love and friendship wasted on a "god" (which you can't be sure who it might be). For the "prayer and meditation" side of things, most people go to church because its routine and something that would be frowned upon if they didn't go, now do you really think these people think deeply inside themselves to know what their inner self says? No, their just praying to "god" for peace and love on earth which is nice but ultimately pointless. Now I'm not saying all people act this way, some actually meditate and pray to find their inner most voices and make peace within themselves, which i think is flipping awesome. But all this could be done without religion ... if you feel mellow and have a bad case of the blahs, your obvious reaction would be to look into yourself for answers as to why you feel this way. Instead some people just go to church and think everything will be fixed like magic. Which i don't need to say is foolish.

Religion: so dramatic and over rated

Necros~

[Guest John_Q_Sample]

I think the real question here is, can you be a diaper and still like Christians? Or even more important, can you say "Oh, God! I messed my diaper" and still be an athiest???

By the way, does anyone think they are gonna win this little "Battle of the Network Religions" cause I can most assuredly assure you... nobody will.

Any true God, would most likely be saddened by conflict of any kind in his name...

[superdiaperbaby]

Ok, let me turn your question around if you don't mind. Prove to me that he is NOT a mythical being. You can't huh?

blah blah blah blah

P.s: I will happily eat these words if you were right when we die, and if the theory of Morv is right, then DAMN, i'll eat my hat with that as well. lol

Yes I can prove it all. And now to the amazement of the audience I will prove that Jesus Christ is God and also that he did rise from the dead to prove he was God and to die for our sins.

There are 4 ways of proving this. There are logical proofs, mathematical proofs, spiritual proofs, and historical proofs. Keep in mind that there are books and books written on all the proofs so I am just giving a subset of them.

Hmm, I think I will start off with the logical. We will start off with the widely held belief that Jesus was a real man. There is way too much evidence to dispute this so lets get into the logical evidence for the resurrection.

1. So, where is the body of Jesus?

Logically, if Jesus was just a real man he would have had a body at death. And since people claimed to see Him after his death all the Romans and Pharisees had to do would be to bring out the body of Jesus and show them - "look he is dead, you are crazy." The Pharisee's and the Romans all had a stake in making sure that Jesus's body was not stolen. The Pharisee's even went to the Romans and had them place guards at the entrance to Jesus's tomb. The Romans did not want Jesus to be a martyr and everyone knew that Jesus said after 3 days he will rise. The Roman's had at least 30 years of Jews starting rebellions and squelching them. They did not need another revolution. It was in the Roman's best interest to make sure the body was not stolen. Just like it was the Sanhedrin(Jewish Leaders) best interest that Jesus remain dead because they were the ones to want Him to die. It is logical to conclude that many efforts were taken to secure the body of Jesus after He died. It is illogical to assume that no efforts were taken to secure the body.

2. Couldn't the body have been stolen? The Bible mentions that a Roman Guard was placed outside the tomb. Historically a Roman guard was 4 active solders with 12 more in reserve. So the ragtag team of disciples - most who left Jesus at the final hour out of fear for their own life, was brave enough to roll away a 2 ton stone with Roman guards with swords standing watch? No. Logically, this is not likely. The Bible even mentions that the Jewish leaders paid the Roman soldiers to tell the Roman leaders that they fell asleep and the body was stolen away. The soldiers had no problem complying with this because it is known historically that roman soldiers who let the enemy win are punished severely. This story allowed them to keep their jobs. What really happened was Angels came and rolled away the stone and the guards stood there "like dead men". Meanwhile Jesus exits the Tomb, alive.

3. So if the body wasn't stolen and there was no body in the tomb, where is the body?

There was no body in the tomb, because if there was it would have been highly documented and displayed to squelch the new revolutionists that were springing up. Resurrection is the logical answer. If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. If the improbable is eliminated then the impossible must be truth. All the Roman's and Jews had to do was to search and find the body. It is very logical to assume that the Romans and Jews went on a search for the Body of Jesus. This is evident later on when the disciples had gathered together and had locked the door of the place they were at. They were being hunted. And then the resurrected body of Jesus stands before them, proving to them that he was alive. Thomas even put his hands in the holes of Jesus's hands and Jesus's side where he was pierced.

4. That is all from the Bible. What makes the Bible so accurate. Couldn't it be a big lie?

The Bible is not a "book" but a collection of books. The four gospels are four separate books with archaeological evidence showing they are separate. There are over 20,000 pieces of manuscript from those gospels dating from 69AD all the way through 300AD, and all of them have been verified to say the same thing about Jesus's death and resurrection. In contrast the Iliead, which was written at least 600 years(as I remember) before Christ has only 8 manuscripts for its evidence. Yet scholars all believe in the Trojan war and the events that are described. The only reason some scholars don't believe in the bible, which has way more evidence than the Iliad is because resurrection is miraculous and not commonplace. The reason why most people come to the conclusion that this is a "delusion" is simply because they cannot accept the evidence, even if it is overwhelming evidence. So through logic I have proven that the only possible answer is that Jesus rose from the dead. All of Jesus's claims of divinity have to be believed because He himself proved He is God by doing something man cannot do- rise from the dead.

5. Like I said before there are at least 20,000 pieces of separate manuscripts that relate to Jesus. This information was recorded because the early church needed to have them. There is no way Christianity could have spread had all of the eyewitnesses, the Bible mentions more than 500 eyewitnesses, to a Resurrected Jesus not have seen Jesus. These eyewitnesses were the reason Christianity spread. And keep in mind, there was terrible persecution of Christians. 10 of the 12 disciples all were killed for their knowledge, some were even crucified. The Romans documented their ways of purging the world of Christians. If a Christian bowed down to Zeus or any of the Roman Gods then they would be spared. It is logical to assume that the original disciples all knew the truth about Jesus. They were with Him from the beginning and they saw Jesus die. They also saw Jesus later on. Now, had they not seen Jesus they would know the truth about the lie. Why on earth would anyone die for a lie? The death's of those disciples were documented in Roman records. The Disciples all believed they had seen Jesus and all died for their belief. They knew that faith was required of all other believers because they had not seen Jesus. But the fact is, at the beggining, for the disciples, they no longer needed faith. They had facts.

The mathematical ones are interesting. There are over 100 prophecies documented in detail in the Old Testament, which has manuscripts dating back to 200BC. And all of them Jesus fulfilled. The odds of that happening without divine intervention are astronomical.

Ok, I have typed enough. My fingers are tired. I could write a book about the many more proofs. Let me know what other proofs you want, if you do. Most people who have made up their minds that it is a delusion refuse to listen to the evidence because they think that "if it sounds impossible it is impossible". When logically, if there is a Creator of the Universe and all we see(which is another group of proofs), then logically He has the power to do what seems to us as impossible. It is illogical to assume that a creator cannot re-create His creation because He has proven he can do it by creating the universe the first time. Anyways, I hope this helps you understand Christians more, or at least strengthens the faith of the person who wants to know if God minds us wearing diapers. He does, but it won't kill us, so enjoy.

I leave with Psalm 22:14-18, written about 1000 years before Jesus. I can write more if anyone wants to hear it.

14 I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;

people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them

and cast lots for my clothing.

Mark 15:22-24

22They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).

23Then they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it.

24And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.

SDB

[Chibiusa255]

To Morv, if my post sounded unduly antagonistic, I'm sorry. By using terms like "imaginary friends" I was attempting to express things as they appear to me from my point of view. I was not just trying to be an ass. I'm not telling anyone how to live their lives, that's something that everyone will have to decide for themselves. I'm only stating my opinion.

All of the things you claim come from Christianity (morality, community, etc.) can be had without it. I can be a moral person without the promise of a eternal reward or punishment. I can have a sense of community without it being solely based on shared religious beliefs. Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King Jr. would have been great people regardless of whether they were christian or not. These are things I very strongly believe.

Superdiaperbaby, all your "proof" really boils down to is "it says it in the bible so, it must be true". This proves nothing. It's merely rhetoric to justify more rhetoric.

I think the real question here is, can you be a diaper and still like Christians? Or even more important, can you say "Oh, God! I messed my diaper" and still be an athiest???

Thank you John_Q_Sample. This is going to be my new sig here as long as you don't mind .

[Morv]

Ah, Chibi, I think you overestimate humanity. I don't think every single person needs religion, specificly Christianity, to be a great person. Look at Ghandi. But, I think there are many, many people that do. I have a high opinion of the nature of humanity, but I have a low estimation of most humans. The average person in this world really isn't all that intelligent, driven, or self-guided.

There, essentially, are two real sources, speaking historically and currently, of ways to decide on morality. One is philosophy, and it should be noted that much early philosophy was based on religious thinking, but it did begin to apply logic. Religion itself the other. At one point in time, single rulers our councils of elders would determine right and wrong among those they led. Later, as philosophy developed, the concepts of codified laws, trials, juries of peers, and elected representation occured. Philosophy, and especially legal philosophy, began to shape how we viewed rights, and how we determined the structure of governments that rule us. And legal philosophy is something that grew from religion, when people began to ask themselves about determining right and wrong, virtuous and not virtuous. St. Thomas Aquianas comes to mind in the history of legal philosophy. (And in no way would I suggest that Christianity is the only religion to provide major contributions to society.

Our current governments, their flaws at what they are, aren't really that bad. We enjoy a large number of freedoms and live in a fairly advanced civilization. Every single executive leader of my particular country has been a religious person, actually, specificly, Christian, even if some of them were a little more wishy/washy in their devotion than others. The point is, even if you see flaws in the world you're living in, having a government, a rule of law, is something that developed out of religion, to a large degree. I would say that is pretty damned amazing progress.

In the scheme of humanity, the concept of athiesm is rather young. Historically it hasn't influenced a whole lot until fairly recently. I don't think there were many athiests running around pre BC for sure, and probably not really that many up until well after, what, somewhere aroudn 1400-1700 or so?

[Necros]

It seams to be factious information ... but you've got a little thing off. Philosophy at the beginning was indeed controlled by religion, if you didn't go with the religious view points in your philosophical views you would be ostracized and sometimes even killed. Now it didn't grow out of religion, it had no choice to be associated with it though. Sure i agree and know that some actually believe the crap of god created things and that life could be spawned out of thin air, but most of them wanted to create theories to prove it wrong. But of course their not stupid so they didn't do it. Although some actually tried their hand .... sadly like everytime someone opposed christianity they got hurt, tortured, or killed. When the religious hold on the people started waning thats when philosophy took flight and invented legal philosophy, and all this with no association from religion. For obvious reasons xD. (This meaning that philosophy could have developed A LOT faster if relgion wouldn't have restricted it)

I hope you don't mind me expressing my opinion on the matter? I hate historical facts being twisted. If i'm wrong please point it out i will be glad to eat my words.

To superdiaperbaby heres my opinion on the post you made:

For your first argument you state that jesus rised .... were you there to witness it? No. Roman guards are humans and humans have a price like everyone of us, you give them enough money and they will say anything and do anything if its well planned and thought of. This is 2000 years ago ... is it so hard to believe that some romans thought it more important a bag of gold then a dead dude? Your theory about angels can be discussed but i'm not even gonna go there for fear of offending people XD ... angels ... *chuckles* Jesus coming back to his followers? Don't you think the followers thought it would be awesome to tell a lie about it so it would look like jesus actually rised from the dead? I mean you did say the door was locked and there was only the followers in that room ... is it so hard to believe in a man of that time lying for his own belief system? Not really.

The bible, is it a lie? Probably. Why? I don't know I'm not psychic, and you don't know ether ... although one of us is more inclined to believe anything he reads. Just because something is written in a book doesn't make it true, didn't your mother teach you to put your logic before you believe something? Logic is not on your side superdiaperbaby, theres a reason scholars don't believe the bible, it has to many areas in it that could have been lied about or faked or even written over to appear the way you read it now. But its your choice, believe in your bible, we're in a free world and you have the right to believe in anything you wish .... but fortunately the next generation will not fall into these religious lies and live their lives free of religious persecution whether their gay, bi, lesbian, transsexual, transvestite, cross-dresser, ab/dl, polyamore, etc. Logically i don't accept religion. Its not because it sounds impossible btw, its because its possible that everything you read in the bible has been faked or lied about. I'm not saying its all lies it has SOME historical value, but thats has far has it goes.

Please don't use the word logic when trying to prove religion's validity, because nothing about religion or of a higher power can be logical. Think about it if its so logical why doesn't everybody believe in religion? I mean scientists are the most logical people there is and if presented with logical proof of his existence they would acknowledge it, that tells a lot on the bible doesn't it .

Peace and don't be so gullible.

Necros~

[Morv]

As I said in my last post, St. Thomas Aquinas. He is a cornerstone of legal philosophy whose philosophy grew out of Catholic doctrine. He is still very much studied in terms of legal philosophy today. Religion provided for humans the earliest concepts of right and wrong.

[Necros]

But you can agree that all that philosophy would have been greatly improved and advancements would have been tenfold if religion didn't mix up in this? I do recall in my history research a certain St. Thomas, but what his influence was i don't recall. So, i will take your word for it . Although this guy was actually influenced by religion just look at how many have come up with philosophy without the aid of religion! Theres so many lol~

Necros~

P.s: I believe we're finding some common ground Morv :3~

[Andy]

lately different kinds of 'groups' can't identify with religion since the main religions from their point of view do not allow things. In this case especially transgendered&gays who are damned by most of the main religions would naturally come up with contra arguments.

They believe that they believe in nothing which is quite wrong. if they believe in atheism they still believe in something, just like christians to god, the moslems to allah or the jewish to jahwe.....please forgive me if i do not talk bout other main religions....

odd discussion really since no one would change the point of view of each other. You really can waste your time with arguments bout philosophy and deeper philosophy or have the best arguments - from your point of view of course.

It wouldnt change a damn bit at your discussion opponents, especially in case of religion. Religion, however, is something you like or you dislike. There ain't any middle way through.

The god of the atheists is that there is none

[rickibrat2]

i have seen a lot of creisians in the last few weeks doing nothing but bring major pain to people all in the name off god

going to funerals of sevice men that died in Irag and having these baptis show up and treel every one that is becasue they were gay and america is gay

think i will tstay a druid for life

[Necros]

lately different kinds of 'groups' can't identify with religion since the main religions from their point of view do not allow things. In this case especially transgendered&gays who are damned by most of the main religions would naturally come up with contra arguments.

They believe that they believe in nothing which is quite wrong. if they believe in atheism they still believe in something, just like christians to god, the moslems to allah or the jewish to jahwe.....please forgive me if i do not talk bout other main religions....

odd discussion really since no one would change the point of view of each other. You really can waste your time with arguments bout philosophy and deeper philosophy or have the best arguments - from your point of view of course.

It wouldnt change a damn bit at your discussion opponents, especially in case of religion. Religion, however, is something you like or you dislike. There ain't any middle way through.

The god of the atheists is that there is none

I'm no atheist I'm agnostic, i do know theres something more powerful out there then any of us can comprehend or beyond human logic. What's so odd to me is people that think its jesus or allah or whatever else. How do you know XD have you meant the guy? Or if he is a guy ...

rickibrat2: Are you a druid? Are you against gays? I didn't quite comprehend your post ... sorry XD me frenchy~

Necros~

[Morv]

Necros, you said, "But you can agree that all that philosophy would have been greatly improved and advancements would have been tenfold if religion didn't mix up in this?" No, I don't agree. We don't know what would have happened if religion hadn't existed. I'm not playing hypotheticals here. I would say that if you replace the word "would" in your statement with "could" (both instances), then I would agree with the statement. That could have happened, had things developed differently, but so could a million other possibilitites.

Religion and philosophy are integrally intertwined. Whatever you think may have been if things were different doesn't change the way things were and the way things are. Yes, religion has hampered things. However, it also has given rise to much. Whether or not philosophy would or could have developed and still resulted in a civilization we would recognize is an interesting question. But in arguments about religion, at least, it is much easier to stick to the factual when possible, because so much in the realm of religion is intangible and impossible to prove.

Also, I really can think of a lot worse ways that people waste their time to complain about other than the time they invest in religion. I mean seriously, of all the things to think that people should stop doing and find something better to do with their time... why not complain about people that watch daytime TV, drink, do drugs, sit around doing nothing, or people that steal from others, or pee in a disposable diaper, or something else. I mean, the case could be made that many, many other things are a worse waste of time than religion.

Organizations with religous foundation that do good? Red Cross/Red Crescent, The Salvation Army, Saint Vincent DePaul, Habitat for Humanity, how many soup kitchens and shelter? Yes, it would be nice if people just did these things, but that isn't the reality. The reality is it takes religion to convince many people to do good stuff like that. Yes, religion

How many things can you think of that are worse to spend your time doing than religion? I think the list is long.

[Necros]

True, but the subject were talking about is religion so i won't go into other subject xD ... like you said the list is insanely long. That's why i say mankind is corrupt, it takes religion which is build on no solid proof and probably lies to make them do something nice!?! That tells a lot on the nature of mankind. Thats also why i believe that if religion never existed mankind would probably have evolved into something a little less corrupt. I'm not saying it would have been all pink and full of flowers the beginning of civilizations would have been lots bloody, until mankind would have realized its idiocy and finally calm down acting with love without the "push" of religion. But like you said logically i can't know what would have been if religion wouldn't have existed. This is just my opinion or theory if you will.

But to come back to this current age and time, religion, i think, is dying just look at all the foolish things coming up because of religion giads, morality issues, gay marriage, etc, eventually (and you can't say it won't happen), the generations after this one and the next will get fed up with all the idiocy and foolish beliefs and will stop believing altogether! I don't blame them ether.

Anyways i think everything has been said and done ... theres no need for any more post of my part or others. Lets just drop the subject and fall back into our comfy diapers :3 and do what we came here to do, talk to others about baby stuff~

Peace, and religion doesn't belong here ... stop bringing it here!

Necros~