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<rage>

Why is it so difficult for would-be writers both here and elsewhere to ascertain the difference between legitimately constructive criticism (with or without praise) and flaming?

Why are there so few people who can accept someone pointing out the flaws in their story idea in concise, plain-language manner? Why do they feel the need flip off into a melodramatic tirade about how butthurt they are that someone didn't go "NISE STORIE, M0AR PL0X" instead of offering them real and honest feedback about where they missed the mark and how they might go back and fix it?

Seriously, I'm at a point right now where, for all intents and purposes, if you don't see me comment on your story, it's because there are flaws in it, and rather than tell you about them, I'll just ignore you and stop reading, because it just doesn't seem to be worth the keystrokes to point out your deficiencies so you can correct them and become a better writer as a result. Because no one ever does, they just get butthurt because I didn't heap syrupy sweet praise on them.

I swear, this is all about our school systems rewarding everyone equally for trying instead of working with the kids who obviously need help understanding concepts. Thank god we have Freswith and a handful of others here who have a clue how to write...

</rage>

Back to your regularly scheduled fap fic.

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It's not the first time this has happened. People ragequit the story forum all the time when someone offers suggestions on how to fix their story. I had become extremely selective about criticism prior to this point, because if the story was a complete trainwreck, it wasn't worth my time. I felt like if I showed enough interest to make a comment, it was because I felt there was potential. Now, fuck it. I got better things to do.

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Naw, just the usual I come in and offer critique on a story and the author ragequits with an uber-dramatic "I'm sorry I made you waste your time, I'll never post here again" and deletes both his active stories. *rolls eyes*

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I think it might be a sore subject for new writers because of the learning curve. I remember back when I was in high school, I wrote a lot of fanfic. Terrible fanfic that never saw the light of the day (thankfully), and at the time, I thought I was so clever for writing it. Then I went to college and learned how to actually write and handle critiques.

When you're a new writer, I think putting together a story seems daunting enough that the pressure to write a good story seems impossible. It would explain why, when people start commenting and pointing out flaws, they take it as a sign that they're terrible, when it's not necessarily the case. I would urge any writers who are just starting out to be patient with themselves and with their readers. You have to keep trying and improving on your past works or you just won't get anywhere.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter.

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Those that would delete a story for one negative comment are too fragile to venture into such things without some counseling. They have deeper issues than just wearing/liking diapers. Those that would delete all stories for feedback that was constructive, well, there's a diagnosis to be found there.

So, I have never deleted a story and never will. I openly invite feedback, good or bad. As a matter of fact, I just posted up a word doc of a story I'd like to get critiqued and anyone is welcome to participate. When finished, it will be posted to the board in the traditional format in the main forum.

Don't get me wrong, I love praise but I'm old enough to know I'm no Hemingway. Hell, I'm not much of a writer at all but I do like to do it. Anyone that can't see this is not serious business and all in good fun is seriously delusional.

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Botox, I absolutely agree with you. There have been some half-way decent writers who could easily have been at least just a little better if they hadn't gotten upset over someone pointing out a flaw here and there.

I've found that positive comments will urge the writer to post more of the story and if I'm going to comment on potential improvement, I try to mix it with positive comments as well. But, there are times when even that is not received well.

I thought The Room was a very interesting story and I'm disappointed that it got pulled. I didn't recall that the writing was all that bad, but we all have to ignore a certain number of spelling, grammar or punctuation errors in order to get through stories posted here.

I wish there was some way to encourage people to accept some positive, supportive comments (criticism) without getting all upset. Maybe in order to post a story here the writer should have to post a numerical rating of their sensitivity to comments.

Just for a thought, here are some very crude thoughts:

1 = like it or leave it. I can't take anything but strokes. Don't even suggest that I have a weakness in my writing or I'm gone.

2 = if one person has posted a constructive criticism, maybe I can take it but don't pile on. I'm very sensitive.

3 = as long as you're fairly gentle, I can take it but don't start flaming and don't nit-pick. I may or may not appreciate and incorporate your positive comments.

4 = I can take just about any comments you throw at me. If it's a good idea, I may incorporate it. I'll even go back and edit my work based on comments.

5 = Nothing you can say is going to affect me. Give me your best shot. I write for myself and if I've posted, I'm happy. Read it or don't.

Not all people who post know themselves even enough to be accurate in rating their own feelings. This site is complex enough as it is, so I wouldn't want to overload it to the point where it can't be sustained. A rating system might be a good idea, but it might not work either. Some writers do say in advance that they are new writers and welcome comments. Maybe other fairly new or sensitive writers could post their feelings without a rating system as such.

Botox, WBDaddy, JDL23, you are among the best and most tolerant writers here. If I post a story and get a comment from any of you, I'd be thrilled that you thought enough to comment. And I'd take anything to had to say to heart. I share your frustration.

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I'm really trying to remember what The Room was about.

It is almos understandable to me that he would pull a story that was receiving negative feedback, but if I'm not mistaken The Room was pretty successful in terms of feedback.

Almost fittingly, the writer should look into being taught not to throw a tantrum whenever someone has a negative opinion about his story.

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I'm really trying to remember what The Room was about.

It is almos understandable to me that he would pull a story that was receiving negative feedback, but if I'm not mistaken The Room was pretty successful in terms of feedback.

Almost fittingly, the writer should look into being taught not to throw a tantrum whenever someone has a negative opinion about his story.

Haha, well, they are posing on an AB/DL board. Perhaps there is a reason they are interested in diapers and have possible maturity issues.

I would rate myself a 5 on the scale, mostly because I'm old enough to know shit isn't going to always go my way and I do write for myself. Anyone else reading it and liking it is optional. I do try to take pride in my stories and do appreciate feedback but anyone that has written a few knows that feedback is about 1% of the people that read the average story.

I am trying to drum up interest in cooperative editing and whatever assistance we can provide to each other for story improvement. I hate nothing more than to start a story that is so hard to read that it actually hurts. As a document to correct, I can do it but as a pleasurable experience, it isn't.

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I have to agree with Botox. The writer probably has issues that aren't getting addressed. Deleting a story after receiving critique sounds like the sort of thing I would've have done when I had severe social anxiety. In my case, it wouldn't be because I had only ever received praise and not heard a single word of criticism, but because most of it came from myself - and hearing it from the outside confirmed my worst fears.

Although, I was more likely to have edited it and re-edited it until I thought it was perfect, which it never was, so then wouldn't have posted it at all. Doesn't mean you should stop giving critique, though. If I bothered to post something now, I would probably appreciate it.

I like the idea of a numerical rating. Sounds a bit like what they do on Deviantart - underneath the art work, there's a tag stating whether or not the artist is willing to receive criticism. Or I think there used to be something like that? Can't find an example of it now...

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I wish there was some way to encourage people to accept some positive, supportive comments (criticism) without getting all upset. Maybe in order to post a story here the writer should have to post a numerical rating of their sensitivity to comments.

Just for a thought, here are some very crude thoughts:

1 = like it or leave it. I can't take anything but strokes. Don't even suggest that I have a weakness in my writing or I'm gone.

2 = if one person has posted a constructive criticism, maybe I can take it but don't pile on. I'm very sensitive.

3 = as long as you're fairly gentle, I can take it but don't start flaming and don't nit-pick. I may or may not appreciate and incorporate your positive comments.

4 = I can take just about any comments you throw at me. If it's a good idea, I may incorporate it. I'll even go back and edit my work based on comments.

5 = Nothing you can say is going to affect me. Give me your best shot. I write for myself and if I've posted, I'm happy. Read it or don't.

Not all people who post know themselves even enough to be accurate in rating their own feelings. This site is complex enough as it is, so I wouldn't want to overload it to the point where it can't be sustained. A rating system might be a good idea, but it might not work either. Some writers do say in advance that they are new writers and welcome comments. Maybe other fairly new or sensitive writers could post their feelings without a rating system as such.

The rating system might be useful, though if it's self-applied, I can see how some people might say they're a 5 when they're really not. But in all fairness, I think I'd consider myself a 4. I like getting comments, even bad ones (provided I can understand them!), and I consider most of my readers' suggestions or fact-checking. I believe in a healthy relationship between an author and his or her audience.

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For me it depends on the story. Some of my work i would be a 5, so like im just happy with it and it doesnt matter what people say im happy with what i said and how i said it. But i think most times im a 4 as i'm writing and posting it in the editing phase so i will take all usefull info and comments on board.

Anyway i think its far more of a pain when you offer constructive criticism and then fans of the story get butt hurt and jump down your throat because you disagree with them. for christ sake that chick has mentally regressed to the age of a toddler but there is no repercussion, come on guy throw some fricking conflict in their buddy

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Eric - I'm right with you. I'm a 5 on that scale, because I WANT to hear it when I've made a mistake and left a plot hole, or haven't convinced my reader that someone is willing to accept the situation in which they've found themselves. I want to hear ALL of it - don't candy-coat shit for me, if I laid an egg, I want to KNOW it, so I can FIX it in the final draft.

Frankly, I think half the problem is people get the idea that posting in the story forum will get them external affirmation, which is the hallmark of a co-dependent, and when they're met with criticism in any form, constructive or not, that whole ideal gets crushed, and they freak out and run away.

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Ha! co-dependent. I think you've nailed it. I suspect they are young, new and have no ability to process the critical review and comments. I blame the touchy-feely education where everyone that participates gets a trophy and they don't keep score. When kids today are raised without ever having to deal with failure, they have never had to deal with losing or coming in second, third or last.

Just a theory.

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"I blame the touchy-feely education where everyone that participates gets a trophy and they don't keep score."

I don't really care about the author or his story (didn't have the time/interest to read it while it up), but I must say that's rather insulting to imply that co-dependency is a result of receiving too much praise. It's insulting to those of who actually HAVE mental illnesses and experienced otherwise. As one of the so-called 'trophy' generation, I can say that receiving trophies for participation does shit all for your self-esteem - it's home life, friends and family that really affect us (which varies which each person; not all of us receive praise for every little thing we do). Please don't assume a certain generation has the same experience.

Also, I don't think either of you know understand co-dependency is. Co-dependency is not a result of only ever receiving praise - it's a result of constantly being insulted, belittled, to the point that you simply can't take any insult anymore because it makes you feel like shit - like you're not worth the air you're breathing. And, even when people /do/ praise you, you doubt start to doubt them because you received so much crap already that you think they must be lying and are just doing it to make you feel better, or because they have some ulterior motive. You start to think that your only worth is in making other people happy and then get into relationships to 'fix' people and make them happy, or lean on other worse, off people because at least they -need- you and like you.

Now, only ever receiving praise and not taking critique is more the sign of a narcissist... but I'm hesitant to call this writer one, because the one narcissist (or, I should say, growing narcissist...he might possibly grow out of it, or at least I hope so; he's obnoxious and I mentally facepalm every time I hear him speak) I know tends to just ignore criticism/argue with it instead of backing down and hiding his work.

The rating system might be useful, though if it's self-applied, I can see how some people might say they're a 5 when they're really not.

I can't say I understand why anyone would lie and rate themselves higher... admittedly, I'm the sort of person who would rate myself lower (a 2 or 3), because I am not sure how much I can take yet. I suppose if someone really is a narcissist and wants to seem impressive, they'll rate themselves a 5 when they really ought to be something else - but I think that'll be revealed very quickly when someone critiques them and starting arguing... which would defeat the purpose of a rating system. Perhaps only allow writers to rate themselves that high (4 or 5) after it's been shown that they can take a normal amount of criticism?

I also, by the way, wish stories were tagged more consistently. I'm a gay woman and prefer to read about likewise, and I notice most writers tend to post lesbian stories in the main story board rather than the lgbt board. It's kind of confusing, because I can't tell if they've doing that just because they're a straight male writer so they don't think of it as 'gay', or because there's going to be some heterosexual content at some point. If it's the latter, I'd rather it be tagged m/f in addition to f/f so I know to avoid reading it... or at least so I don't get surprised if I decide to read it.

That could apply to anything other thing that would squick one out, too... like some would rather not read a story about an actual child, or physical regression. Although a child main character is usually easy to figure out within the first chapter, at least.

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"I blame the touchy-feely education where everyone that participates gets a trophy and they don't keep score."

I don't really care about the author or his story (didn't have the time/interest to read it while it up), but I must say that's rather insulting to imply that co-dependency is a result of receiving too much praise.

Whatever, I've seen enough of it to draw my own conclusions and I did say at the end, "Just a theory" to qualify it. Get back to me when you and your classmates are twice your age and we'll compare notes again. Go ahead, I'll wait. I've been at this longer than you've been alive.

As for codependent, I've seen so many examples and had no idea it had a name until a decade ago. I just thought there were some really F-ed up people out there.

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"I blame the touchy-feely education where everyone that participates gets a trophy and they don't keep score."

I don't really care about the author or his story (didn't have the time/interest to read it while it up), but I must say that's rather insulting to imply that co-dependency is a result of receiving too much praise. It's insulting to those of who actually HAVE mental illnesses and experienced otherwise. As one of the so-called 'trophy' generation, I can say that receiving trophies for participation does shit all for your self-esteem - it's home life, friends and family that really affect us (which varies which each person; not all of us receive praise for every little thing we do). Please don't assume a certain generation has the same experience.

The "trophy" mentality teaches children to be narcissistic, because they are never criticized by the adults in their life. Everything they do is worthy of praise. Hence, it becomes a life pattern, an expectation that everyone will have nothing but positive things to say about anything you do, and it develops into the narcissistic pathology - the world revolves around them, and anyone who attempts to offer a point of view that doesn't agree with that worldview is met with uncontrolled rage.

The clinical definition of NPD: The patient overestimates his or her abilities and has an excessive need for admiration and affirmation.

Also, I don't think either of you know understand co-dependency is. Co-dependency is not a result of only ever receiving praise - it's a result of constantly being insulted, belittled, to the point that you simply can't take any insult anymore because it makes you feel like shit - like you're not worth the air you're breathing. And, even when people /do/ praise you, you doubt start to doubt them because you received so much crap already that you think they must be lying and are just doing it to make you feel better, or because they have some ulterior motive. You start to think that your only worth is in making other people happy and then get into relationships to 'fix' people and make them happy, or lean on other worse, off people because at least they -need- you and like you.

Actually, I don't think you quite have a grasp on co-dependency. The cause is not the issue here, the pathology is - and the pathology of a co-dependent is someone who extends themselves to try and "help" other people in the secret hope that said person will reciprocate. In relationships, a co-dependent man is typically referred to as having "white knight" syndrome - an unhealthy attraction to women who are in obvious distress. By riding to their rescue, the co-dependent man hopes that his acting as savior will win him the loyalty of the one he saves, and resentment builds when she, being just as unhealthy as he is, finds herself incapable of responding to his needs in the way that he imagined.

How does this tie back to the author in question? He writes stories for two reasons: First, because he truly believes he is a great author and worthy of the praise he so desperately needs (narcissism). Second, he hopes that, by writing something to entertain people here (meeting a perceived need), he will be rewarded by those readers with adoration and praise (co-dependency). Therefore, when faced with legitimate, even-tempered criticism, his whole worldview is shattered and he flies off into a dramatic rage (again, narcissism), secretly hoping someone will chase after him and comfort him (co-dependency) and tell him that they won't let the mean old curmudgeon hurt him anymore.

Obviously, those of us who write on a regular basis understand that he's writing for all the wrong reasons, and it's no small wonder he has no tolerance for criticism.

Net result: Bo-Tox's assessment of this particular author is probably dead on the mark.

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I can't say I understand why anyone would lie and rate themselves higher... admittedly, I'm the sort of person who would rate myself lower (a 2 or 3), because I am not sure how much I can take yet. I suppose if someone really is a narcissist and wants to seem impressive, they'll rate themselves a 5 when they really ought to be something else - but I think that'll be revealed very quickly when someone critiques them and starting arguing... which would defeat the purpose of a rating system. Perhaps only allow writers to rate themselves that high (4 or 5) after it's been shown that they can take a normal amount of criticism?

That's a fairer assessment, I suppose. A rating system for those with some self-awareness about their work.

I also, by the way, wish stories were tagged more consistently. I'm a gay woman and prefer to read about likewise, and I notice most writers tend to post lesbian stories in the main story board rather than the lgbt board. It's kind of confusing, because I can't tell if they've doing that just because they're a straight male writer so they don't think of it as 'gay', or because there's going to be some heterosexual content at some point. If it's the latter, I'd rather it be tagged m/f in addition to f/f so I know to avoid reading it... or at least so I don't get surprised if I decide to read it.

That could apply to anything other thing that would squick one out, too... like some would rather not read a story about an actual child, or physical regression. Although a child main character is usually easy to figure out within the first chapter, at least.

I don't know about the rules for what does or doesn't get posted on the LGBT Forum, but I assume that any lesbian stories will be posted in the Story Forum because it's where all fiction goes regardless of its genre. I do know that you can add tags to story threads, so putting "M/F" or "F/F" in there would be useful.

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I am not gay so I never go to the forum specifically for that group of stories. I would not read anything gay/lesbian and while I may write some gay/lesbian scenes, they are usually part of my larger story and not a gay/lesbian story in the larger sense. If someone feels they are, that's there opinion and they are entitled to it.

However, if you ever read one of my stories and don't like it, I will refund double your money back. That's a deal you can't beat! LOL

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Ha! co-dependent. I think you've nailed it. I suspect they are young, new and have no ability to process the critical review and comments. I blame the touchy-feely education where everyone that participates gets a trophy and they don't keep score. When kids today are raised without ever having to deal with failure, they have never had to deal with losing or coming in second, third or last.

Just a theory.

I have to agree with pageofkittens in that the 'problem' writers are not all 'young, new and have no ability to process the critical review and comments.'

However, "new and have no ability to process the critical review and comments" is probably true. There are lots of people of all ages who have not written much if anything.

It seems like the problem stems from such people who like to read stories and then get great ideas for a new story, but don't have the skills needed to write. Some go ahead anyway and come up with stories that are largely unreadable. People rightly either ignore the story or make comments. The writer has done the best he/she can. Some of them are probably very sensitive about their poor writing skills and are hurt when the obvious is noted. Some others have delusions about their skills and feel anything they throw on the page should be greeted with loud cheers from lots of adoring fans.

Some people are aware of their lack of skills, have ideas for stories, post them and ask someone else to run with them. While this isn't also picked up on, at least its better than having very bad writing posted and lots of hurt feelings as a result.

I do agree with the "codependency" concept but wouldn't attribute it exclusively to any one age group. It doesn't ALL come from the younger generation, though the 'thanks-for-coming award' mentality certainly hasn't helped matters at all.

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I agree with diaperpt, im 19 and feel as though its not just young people, just certain people dont do well with criticism. The school system is diffrent for everyone when i was in high school we wrote many papers abd teachers wrote their comments and some were brutally honest about some problems or defencies. The one problem I do find somewhat ignorant is when people comment on others stories telling them this and that can't happen. Most stories are purely fictional and correct me if im wrong but alot of books that are popular now are also fictional. If people were less worried about the details abd just read for entertainent we may not have these problems.

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It seems like the problem stems from such people who like to read stories and then get great ideas for a new story, but don't have the skills needed to write. Some go ahead anyway and come up with stories that are largely unreadable. People rightly either ignore the story or make comments. The writer has done the best he/she can. Some of them are probably very sensitive about their poor writing skills and are hurt when the obvious is noted. Some others have delusions about their skills and feel anything they throw on the page should be greeted with loud cheers from lots of adoring fans.

Some people are aware of their lack of skills, have ideas for stories, post them and ask someone else to run with them. While this isn't also picked up on, at least its better than having very bad writing posted and lots of hurt feelings as a result.

I agree. I was grateful that I had teachers and peer reviewers in high school and college who could be critical about my writing, but not in a mean way. Mostly it was for my class essays, but I remember the terror and strange joy that went through me when I took an Intro to Fiction writing course in my sophomore year in college. Having my story dissected was kind of exciting and really made me consider what I needed to fix about the plot and character motivations. In the same way, I hope that new writers on here--both young and old--won't get discouraged and take our criticism carefully, provided we're constructive about it.

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