A Question Of Ethics

[crys_138]

To be honest, I saw the first post and thought of a cliche forced-submission story that usually ends with either murder, jail time or someone SO broken that the state ends up footing the bill for the rest of their life.

You're only setting yourself up for the fall. The things you're trying do not work and will not work this time. (The very definition of insanity.)

If you really want him to learn how to be a decent human being, then toss him back out onto the street. He'll either shape up or collapse entirely, but at least you can't be held liable if the latter happens. He will have done it to himself. Works a lot better than forced submission. Either that or treat him like a decent human being in the first place. He can learn from that as well. He acts decent, praise him some. He doesn't, then do nothing special.

And then again, some people are just lost causes. Abuse won't save them... nothing will.

[texansfan]

Babyfur will be gone for a few days just so you know, this whole thing with his brother has got him thinking that the world would be better off without him and he's acting in some ways that really disturb me. I can't watch him 24/7 to make sure that he doesn't hurt himself so I'm admitting him to a hospital. And in his defense, most of the things he said in here was venting, he's frustrated and bitter and a little frightened of his brother, and I don't think he would ever do any of these things to his own brother.

[spoonchicken]

People like that need a serious lesson in humility, but diapers aren't strong enough to change his attitude. So long as he can get away with "telling people what they want to hear" to accomodate his needs, he will never fundamentally change. I say show him tough love ( or thinly disguised hate), and throw him out. Let him sleep under the bridge, and show up for work looking ( and smelling) homeless. It sounds to me, as though his loss of face inside the family isn't a strong enough lesson. Let him feel total rejection from all those around him. Let him lose all face, and know what that feels like. Only then (and only maybe) will he feel compelled to improve himself. However, if these attitudes are ingrained after an entire childhood/early adulthood of getting his way, he just might be a lost cause. One way or another, I suggest completely turnung your back on him, either temporarily or permanently. Anything less than something that drastic might not do the job

[Dill_Pickle]

Too be honest I'm not even sure what I was thinking.

....

I know now it sounds like I'm revenge motivated, but I'm not. I love him and he's seen what his attitude gets him: alone or getting the crap beat out of you but he hasn't learned. He thinks that everyone should be glad to do things for him, he doesn't understand that you only get things in this world because people either respect you or they love and care about you. He thinks humility is beneath him and I want to tech him it's not. I'm afraid that he's going to get killed someday because of his attitude and I don't want to see that happen. I'm frustrated and desperate to try and correct him by any means necessary. *sighs* I just don't know what to do.

Fur:

It is my strong suggestion that you talk with a live, professional counselor about this situation. You are much too close to it to think clearly about it. If your brother hasn't learned by now, it is unlikely he is going to ever learn anything...it's just not in him, and he will have to learn the only other available way: Through the school of hard knocks, those impersonal things that happen to people when they do foolish things, like encounters with the cops and getting arrested.

The only thing he can possibly learn is quid pro quo, and that you will not be manipulated. If he understands that you won't tolerate certain behaviors, he will control them. I don't think sleep deprivation or random punishment is a good idea -- too much effect on your own life and karma. Also, he is "house slave"...leave it at that...if he mouths off, threaten him, I like the "three strikes" rule. And don't do anything "for" him, without an explicit request for help and, most importantly, a thank you. If it goes badly, he should apologize. That has to be a rule. And if he can't keep to the rules, then out he goes. You also need to follow the rules about "please" and "thank you".

[Crowbaby]

i am inclined to say that forcing this or any lifestyle on someone is wrong. sorry for your plight BUT some poeple cannot or wont change. if he doesnt want to be civil, then he can be back on the streets brother or no. so basically teh options are A)kick him out or like was previously stated, get him some help. he has an extremesuperiority complex taht seriously needs to be put in check. hell. have him join the marines haha. theyre pretty good at breaking people. if this is real go with those, if your jsut coming up with random bs, please help me fix it so my car can run on it and just spew away lol

[Mean Mommy]

This maybe the wrong place for this but I could really use some other opinions. Right now I'm trying to help my twin brother fix his life. his problem is he's an ungreteful asshole who managed to get kicked out of our parents house because of his mouth. After he showed up on my doorstep and I told him to put an egg in his shoe and beat it, I started feeling guilty and with the agreement of all of my housemates I'm allowing him to stay but I'm trying to teach him somethings. I'm trying to teach him to be grateful but he's too proud so he's now the house slave in order to teach him humility. The problem is nothings working, I have to completely break him psychologically before I can teach him.

What the hell does this have to do with diapers? Well I'm starting to wonder if forcing him to wear diapers might not be such a bad idea in as far as it would(theoretically) help undermine him psychologically. When I allowed him to stay he signed a contract saying that he would do as ordered by any of the rest of the housemates, any conflicts would be resolved by me. The contract says that the agreement can be terminated at will if he decides to leave fine, if the house decides we want him to leave he has to leave, but the catch(at least for him) is that he has nowhere else to go, his job doesn't pay enought o get an apartment, our parents have agreed to let me try to teach him and they will not let him back home, and none of his friends will allow him to stay with them.

NOTE: He does NOT know that I'm an AB and I only wear diapers around him for medical reasons.

The question of ethics is: Would forcing him to wear diapers in this situation be a tool or would I be forcing him to go along with my fetish? and ethically would it be wrong to do that to him? Any and all thoughts appreciated

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGH!!!!!

WHAAAAT THE F*********CK???!!!!??!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

YOU ARE INSANE! DON'T YOU DARE DO A THING!!!

As somebody who enjoys breaking people, I just have to add one more capitalized WHAT THE FUCK?!! to my post before I calmly explain why I am reacting so vehemently to your idea. IT'S AWFUL and would only be condoned by someone DEPRAVED.

I would NEVER EVER consider breaking my sister, let alone breaking my sister WITHOUT HER CONSENT. Something that psychologically intense (HELLO? YOU'RE TRYING TO CRACK A LAYER OF SOMEONE'S SANITY!) could only be done with agreement and thorough understanding from both parties beforehand. The only people who do this without consent or understanding are TORTURERS.

YOU UNDERSTAND?! TORTURERS!!!!

"Breaking" comes from the BDSM community, which plays with the concepts used for actual TORTURE. And if the "torturee" isn't being pleasured by these acts (psychological humiliation in your case) then it's TORTURE.

Get it? TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE! I've typed that word so much I almost forgot what it means. But I don't. I understand that what you're proposing is to attack your brother's self-worth, identity and esteem through arcane acts of extreme humiliation. You want to break his sense of pride and introduce him to numerous levels of shame against his will. Because he does not agree to this, the effects your acts would have on him would be catastrophic. Instead of acting like a "good baby boy" he could very well likely develop POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER.

Many Mommies, Daddies, and bABies who enjoy BDSM as well as ABDL understand that they are turned on by things that would otherwise be considered abnormal. I understand that humiliation is, in all other contexts, a heinous experience. But because I enjoy it and I have found someone else who also enjoys it humiliation is pleasurable for the both of us. Only with clear communication and respect can it will stay that way.

I tried to find an entry about psychologically breaking someone on wikipedia. I thought there may be rules in the BDSM community about how to approach it safely. There isn't (at least not on wiki). The closest thing I got was on a page titled "psychology of torture". Look it up.

If you did this to anyone, let alone a family member, they would have every right to sue you for emotional distress (and win too). Regardless about whether they are occupying your couch or not.

And finally, I'd like to add that it's completely inappropriate for you to engage in a sexually charged psychological mindfuck with your brother. If your brother was interested in being broken, he shouldn't be broken by a family member for fucks sake. But he's not, so I'll put this more realistically: it's inappropriate for you to torture your brother, period. You sound so wrapped up in the perverse counter-culture of pain (BDSM) that you've forgotten the real-life consequences of such actions on unsuspecting people. How dare you assume you have the right to give anyone an unsolicited lesson on humility. You need to step back and take a good look at yourself. Why do you want to do this to your brother? Why are you not bothered by the lack of his consent? I honestly urge you to see a professional and discuss these questions.

As for your lazy good-for-nothing brother? It sounds like he's going through a tough time. As family you should welcome and support him. Try your best to help him and certainly do not judge him. If it seems his taking advantage of your generosity, then perhaps he needs to leave. But before it gets to that point, your brother should have your respect and support.

Although after reading your post, it doesn't sound like he's safe with you.

BDSM is all fun and games under several important conditions. One of those conditions is that everything is consensual. If you break this condition then what you are doing is not helpful, or pleasurable, what you're doing is torture.

[Mean Mommy]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate on this one...I learned ALOT about humor,humility,humbleness,etc,etc in prison. I don't know about the exact situation,Babyfur,because you don't explain much. I will say however that diapers as a forced form of humility isn't such a bad idea. After reading most of the previous comments,I noticed ALOT of"Victim Mentality" in them. You guys know who you are. If there's one thing in life that truly pisses me off,it's the"poor,poor me"attitude America is achieving...

Babyfur putting his twin back in diapers,wether it be for toughlove or revenge,may be the best thing for the guy. "What we have here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach....so you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it...WELL,he's gonna get it......"

PampersPete:

I don't mean to attack you, but you should go easier on America and yourself. Everyone has problems and a good slice of pain to deal with.

You probably think I'm a whiner, don't you? Let me tell you a little story. This past year I have been through hell. Hell as in I was homeless in New York. Not for that long and I had friends, but some nights weren't great you know? There are more stories, but let's just leave it at that. Now I have to go track down a man who raped my friend and "break" him. I understand what I'm doing is ugly, stupid, and most likely illegal. I know.

There are people out there who may deserve a thing or two. A lazy brother isn't one of them. The real world is so cold and cruel, I do not scorn people who haven't seen it. It is not enlightening. And what hurts the most, it does not make you stronger. Only through spiritual and emotional discipline can any lessons from the "real world" be sustained. And that's hard work in itself. Undue pain and stress has made me a close-minded, raw, seething individual. It did not make me into a better person. It has aged me incredibly.

I hurt for anyone who has to deal with a life riddled with abundant pain. It is abnormal, and retards one's intellect and compassion.

It sounds like you and I have dealt with similar pain. Not in the same way, mind you, but similar in that it is the sort of pain that wracks the soul and mind alike. Sounds like you are expressing something known as the blunted affect, or at least are trying to justify it.

If Babyfur forced his brother into diapers the reality is that his brother will be only hurt by the shame inflicted on him. The only things that come of such hateful actions are fear and pain. How they combine in a person's head and how they are expressed depends on the individual. What we can be sure of is that they are there, like a malignant tumor, eating away at the person. But you already knew that.

Only by addressing one's fear and pain can one rise above it. It could be seen as a "victim mentality" but there is no other way. Once you recognize how helpless you are can you grow stronger.

[Dill_Pickle]

Fur:

It is my strong suggestion that you talk with a live, professional counselor about this situation. You are much too close to it to think clearly about it. If your brother hasn't learned by now, it is unlikely he is going to ever learn anything...it's just not in him, and he will have to learn the only other available way: Through the school of hard knocks, those impersonal things that happen to people when they do foolish things, like encounters with the cops and getting arrested.

The only thing he can possibly learn is quid pro quo, and that you will not be manipulated. If he understands that you won't tolerate certain behaviors, he will control them. I don't think sleep deprivation or random punishment is a good idea -- too much effect on your own life and karma. Also, he is "house slave"...leave it at that...if he mouths off, threaten him, I like the "three strikes" rule. And don't do anything "for" him, without an explicit request for help and, most importantly, a thank you. If it goes badly, he should apologize. That has to be a rule. And if he can't keep to the rules, then out he goes. You also need to follow the rules about "please" and "thank you".

***********************

On further thought:

1) What you are doing now is probably abuse, and definitely revenge. What you are proposing is definitely abuse. None of it is a good idea. Mean_Mommy is right. Not that I mind charging him housework in lieu of rent, but it should be on a "this task should be completed" basis, with his choice as to when exactly to do it.

2) You are acting like you are under a great deal of stress right now, especially after your posting on the medical incontinence section. Yow will look back, and wonder at how poor your judgment is right now. Get professional help. Ask your professional help about the "cycle of abuse".

3) As for your brother, if you want to teach him something, teach him that the bitten hand does not feed, that trust must be earned. Sweet talk doesn't undo lies. You will enforce the terms of a reasonable contract, even if you ARE his brother.

4) There;'s lots of evidence that rewarding good behavior is a significantly more effective approach than punishing bad behavior. You can't train a rat to run a maze by beating it, but you can do it by reinforcing the right behavior. Your brother is similar: He will be far more motivated if you let him stay because he is doing good things rather than punish him for the bad things.

5) Your brother may not be teachable, especially by you. Accept this.

6) If you want to teach your brother, show him calm, show him manners: "Please", "Thank You", "I'm sorry"...walk out on a fight, or never let things escalate into a fight: "This is wrong. I'll be back later".