Is The Diaper Lover Thing Dominant/submissive?

[Mostest Anonomi]

I may be a little off on this, but so far I'm getting every indication that the Diaper Lover fetish is just another deviation of the dominance/submissiveness thing. A lot of people seem to be attracted to diapers because wearing them takes away their feeling of independence and control... and it seems to me that this is more psychological than anything else. For instance, when I see a girl wearing diapers I envision an emotionally fragile dependent person who can't make any of her own decisions and needs to be controlled. When she has accidents or is being changed, I imagine the psychological discomfort from dealing with something gross or extremely embarrassing; or I imagine the resignation that she's going to have to live with this and deal with it for a long time. It's not just the diapers.

It seems to fit into the dom and sub category and be mostly psychological. If so, A LOT of fetishes can share this characteristic. For the bondage fetish, a person tied up has a complete lack of control over the situation and is hopeless as the other person can do anything they want to them. This is the same for wrestling and rape fetishes where a weaker person is completely out of control and can be mangled or penetrated at will. The drowning and quicksand fetishes have a person is severe emotional distress struggling and calling for someone to save them. The asphyxiation fetish has someone who is fearful and struggling to breathe. The crossdressing fetish has someone bearing the humiliation of dressing up as a woman. The bug squishing fetish has someone who imagines they are a tiny helpless bug being crushed under the weight of a person. The face sitting fetish has someone who is helpless and uncomfortable underneath another person's butt. The list goes on and on for these fetishes.

Maybe this is just my view of things but it just seems too coincidental that they can (mostly) all share the dominance/submissiveness characteristic and psychological elements. What do you think?

[tris]

I would venture to say that you are correct! I'm sorry you haven't gotten any real responses, but it's like you're telling us something we already know, and are more or less asking for a confirmation of your suspicions. The psychological implications you state are indeed true for many members of this forum, particularly since this fetish goes a bit 'deeper' than just a passing fancy and most likely manifests itself sometime in early life.

[Topguy]

My experiences over the past decade with real life submissive women have shown me that this is pretty much on the mark. Some people just seem to be wired to enjoy being under the thumb of another-some like it for roleplay-others like it for sex-others still want it so, much that they want it 24 7.

I've figured out this much. As a Dominant-I facillitate a need in someone. I free up to experience-as much as I bind.

There is a great deal of trust and intimacy involved between two people to make this happen. The girl I am taking control of needs to know that I am looking after her safety. That I am paying attention, that I care. At the same time, if I don't also get what I need-I am not going to want to make that much of an investment. Which is why I can't do non sexual ab's-I have needs I want met as well.

So our wants, needs and limits have to dovetail. The chemistry has to be right-we need to have a physical as well as mental and emotional bond going on.

Especially with women in this society-they REALLY need to know that a guy is going to keep up his respect levels with them. Especially if your partner is really going to let you go totally. You better BELIEVE that you had best know a guy loves you-when he has your legs up in the air-wiping the poo off of your ass. And you aren't allowed to take the next diaper off. The same as the one you just filled. That you no longer have control of the holes between your legs.

Cuz it's going to be pretty horrible if he doesn't come across like he enjoys every bit of you during that sort of a thing. When he does, it's pretty much a total freeing for the sort of girl who can go there.

The mental side of this is everything-the physical actions only come as the outreach of that. And that's what I do, find the core of the mind-and let it be free to escape the chains. Me into you, you into me.

Intimacy.

[Mostest Anonomi]

I would venture to say that you are correct! I'm sorry you haven't gotten any real responses, but it's like you're telling us something we already know, and are more or less asking for a confirmation of your suspicions. The psychological implications you state are indeed true for many members of this forum, particularly since this fetish goes a bit 'deeper' than just a passing fancy and most likely manifests itself sometime in early life.

Yea I've done some reading and have indeed found that researchers make pretty convincing links between different types of fetishes (Kinsey Institute Encyclopedia). So it would indeed take a lot to convince me otherwise.

I guess what bothers me is how many many people say that this fetish is so abnormal and freaks people out and they can't find anybody willing to participate in this. I just don't see how this is possible, especially if what I said before is correct. Dominance and submission are natural sexual desires. Granted you are either going to more dominant or more submissive and this will affect how 'compatible' you are with your partner, but I think the form this dominance or submission takes can be nearly anything. It just seems very odd that I can get into nearly every fetish where a woman is in a submissive role and other people don't have the same tendency to jump across fetishes. I just don't believe that. I think people may have limits into how kinky they are, but it mostly depends on how you bring it up.

Maybe its just me but I DO NOT like the idea of just coming out and telling your girlfriend/boyfriend "wearing and using diapers turns me on". I have a feeling that's what's been causing many people bad reactions and don't think this reaction is inevitable. I'm not an expert on this... but my two cents is to send out feelers or push them toward the fetish without explicitly doing so and they may have more success. When the conversation comes up, I will say I'm into submissive women. If appropriate, I will list every single kink that comes to mind involving submissive women... including DL's. If the opportunity arises, I will make make a joke about how a girl doing the potty dance waiting for a toilet resembles a girl masturbating and having an orgasm... and see where this goes. If she starts getting a thing for this, maybe she'll push herself farther. If she can be turned on by humiliation (verbal perhaps or exhibitionism), she can most likely be turned on by other humiliation as well... I'd go through bondage in embarrassing positions and vibrators in public and skimpy clothing and eventually diapers. If she's into bondage, I'll see how long she'd be willing to be tied up for. If you can get it up to several hours you will have eventually have a discussion about her need for the bathroom... A perfect opportunity for taunting and joking and seeing what you can get away with without making her uncomfortable.

Maybe this is just me rambling on but I guess I'm not understanding what's tripping them up with getting their partner into the fetish.

[Topguy]

Dude, submissive women love to please a Dominant partner. All I ever really had to do was to outline why I liked doing it to them,and how it could be fun for them. But my experiences have shown me that it's the ones that like the heavier control and humiliation forms that really go for the diapers.

At the same time,society tells them that they are sick for wanting to have something like this done to them. So there is a lot of guilt. And to overcome that,the Dominant initially needs to "force them" do wear and use diapers. It just becomes fun,once they break through the inhibition and overcome the bad programming. You just need to communicate,be patient-and show that you don't look at it the same as the society that calls it all taboo.

One of the reasons that so many ab guys have a hard time getting mommies is this. The woman ends up feeling like she's a slave to the guy-since a baby is basically a demanding little creature that gives very little in return. It's also why Dominant BDSM women don;t care for them too much-it puts them in too much of a bottom role.

[tris]

Top guy, you're correct. I've become aware recently that Submissive is really the truest dominant. Because without our idea of what/how we like it, you wouldn't have anything to do. That's not to say that Doms don't have their own ideas of what/how, but it's a great example of 'it takes two to tango'.

I would also like to point out (again, I'm sure) that Potty Training is strongly tied to our self-respect, a testament to the fact that all of us are impressionable at a young age. However, the 'coming of age' milestone was (in many, if not all cases) produced with humiliation and general debasement. I venture to guess that those factors play a huge role in developing one's personal sexuality profile.

[Topguy]

Top guy, you're correct. I've become aware recently that Submissive is really the truest dominant. Because without our idea of what/how we like it, you wouldn't have anything to do. That's not to say that Doms don't have their own ideas of what/how, but it's a great example of 'it takes two to tango'.

I would also like to point out (again, I'm sure) that Potty Training is strongly tied to our self-respect, a testament to the fact that all of us are impressionable at a young age. However, the 'coming of age' milestone was (in many, if not all cases) produced with humiliation and general debasement. I venture to guess that those factors play a huge role in developing one's personal sexuality profile.

Which is why being "unpotty trained" is probably also the biggest "hard limit" With most people. A lot of parents use really harsh methods to get kids to quit using diapers. Which may backfire into a fetish later on ,leaving that same parent wondering where they went "so terribly wrong."

What do you expect when you are selfish-rather than patient?

The whoile tying of the adult thing to potty training may also explain to a great extent- why so many people with diaper fetishes feel the need to tie them to being a "baby".

Getting told over and over again..."big boys/girls don't wear diapers" by your parents during potty training leaves that programming behind. So they just dodge it by regressing. With me I just basically said "screw it,I don't put up with the bs that my parents and society foisted on me.

I'll do what I please and like it-they can go piss up a rope.

But I agree that subs generally do have the most power. I started as one, a LONNGG time ago. ( I was told it was "the thing to do"-so much for stereotypes) But it was too much like being back with my mother-and I don't like her. And it may seem horrible for a guy to not like his mom-but she gave me good reason-and she's never really changed. Submitting to females is just generally a huge turn off to me.

I just prefer to do MY domination in a fun and loving manner-rather than repeating her mistakes. I also don't use drugs.

Life is much clearer when not seen through a haze of alchohol.

[Mostest Anonomi]

Thanks a lot for the responses!!!

From what you're saying, it sounds like much of this trouble comes just from looking for a dominant rather than a submissive. Since I really don't have this to worry about, I just have to find some submissive enough... and from there on I trust myself

So I guess this may take a little work but it doesn't seem to be the concrete wall 100 ft high that I originally envisioned. That's good to hear.

[tris]

Top, I hate my mom, too, you're not alone. Although, having black friends kinda sucks, because they always like, "Man, why do white boys always hate they moms? I mean, I LOVE my mom, she's like, the best woman in the world." I never really have a good response, other than that different people were raised differently. *shrug* I mean, in the end, we ARE a product of our environment. Unfortunately, for the crucial, formative years, we are a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE to many of our surroundings; left stranded by our non-existent critical thinking skills.

[Topguy]

Top, I hate my mom, too, you're not alone. Although, having black friends kinda sucks, because they always like, "Man, why do white boys always hate they moms? I mean, I LOVE my mom, she's like, the best woman in the world." I never really have a good response, other than that different people were raised differently. *shrug* I mean, in the end, we ARE a product of our environment. Unfortunately, for the crucial, formative years, we are a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE to many of our surroundings; left stranded by our non-existent critical thinking skills.

Shrugs.........kids are too small to defend themselves-and the state looked the other way at abusive during the time I was growing up. I think a lot of us get past it by just forgetting. Which means a parent that screws up goes along with that-once they are grown. You reap what you sow.

As far as finding a sub...........EASY?

Good god man. WAT too many people cpme to fetish for entierly the wrong reasons. I just want a happy "vanilla" thing with some fun on the side. Not some wierd dreamed up "lifestyle", invented by perverts to justify it.

You can't spend your entire life crapping in a diaper.

[Mostest Anonomi]

Here's my plan. Find submissive girl walking down street, tie her up, put her in trunk, take her home. She can live in the closet just like all my other girlfriends. I'll make her my slave. When she's being naughty, I'll do that really kinky thing where I take away all her meals. Very hot. Maybe make her pay all my bills and do all my homework too. And of course she'll wear diapers 24/7/365 and won't need the toilet ever again. I also won't change her diapers. Ever!!! I find that sexy. hahahahaha

Seriously, though, I think I'm being a little misunderstood. I don't know exactly what you meant and I may have made a mistake in my wording but I do indeed know its not easy. I'm aware of the work and time commitment that goes into ANY relationship and I expect this to be the exact same. I'm just learning new things about DL that make it less odd, so I was mulling over the possibility of bringing it up or seeking this out. I also realize sex isn't the only part of a relationship and 24/7 diaper play would probably get very boring after awhile. For the time being, its not even in my mind when I meet people (and btw, I meet people in person, never over the internet).

[Topguy]

I've met quite a few women over the net and gone to real life. But I was also part of a community in seattle for around a decade.I finally got tired of the hypocrasy-back biting and politics. Too many people pushing personal agendas.

The reason that the vast majority of people with fetish fixations never get anywhere is that they have tunnel vision.

You need a lot more in common for it to work with another person.

[tris]

Top is right. You gotta be friends first for it to really work. I'm lucky that my woman loves me no matter what, and is willing to do ANYTHING to make me happy, just like I do for her. She knows how important this life is to me, and she loves to see me smile. Everything we do is out of love.

[Mean Mommy]

St. Savage once spoke about AB/DL and said it was basically a gentler form of BDSM. (Dan Savage is a national sex columnist.) I would agree. Although it seems that many ABs view their time in diapers as therapy. Something I can't relate to. If there is any dom/sub aspect to more serious AB play, then I would believe it focuses on the nurturing aspect of the relationship and less on sex and humiliation. Although I think this sort of therapy is dangerous, like Topguy said, you can't spend your whole life crapping in a diaper.

Yeah, I guess you could view the submissive as the ultimate dominant. But that isn't the point of the fantasy. In reality there are two consenting adults agreeing to take on certain roles to sexually gratify themselves and one another. But they want to forget this in the fantasy they construct. Take a rape fantasy for example. While the person being "raped" has a safety word and the ultimate control, he/she wants to forget that, and pretend that he/she doesn't. That's what makes it so tantalizing. Obviously it is not actual rape. That's why both parties must pretend it is in order to give it any meaning. If we view the submissive as the ultimate dominant, then the "fake" dominant becomes impotent, the submissive still burdened by that sense of control they so desperately want to escape and the whole exercise is for naught.

I would like to respond to Topguy's opinion on why dominant women apparantly avoid AB/DLs. I disagree that dom ladies find tending to their sub baby too restrictive, burdensome and oppressive. If that is the case, then I think something went wrong between the dom and her sub. Nobody wants a demanding sub - whether the sub be diapered, tied up, or hanging from a chandelier by meat hooks. It's something all submissive-inclined men should strive to avoid. It is counteractive and will get the party nowhere. It's just poor communication.

I have met some of these subs who "top from the bottom." In general they are usually not partnered with someone who shares an interest in their kink, and so have to dictate to that person how they want to be mistreated. Apart from the fact that one should find someone that shares a similar passion in one's kinks, subs need to recognize that they should outline their desires beforehand, and then dutifully submit when the time comes. Otherwise sex will be confusing, nerve-wracking, and pleasurable to none. It could be a baby's fear, or anxiety, or lack of manners that makes him a whiny and tiresome little boy. But the moral of the story is shut up, relax, and let mommy do her thing.

Ha, funny that, I always seem to end up with men who have mother/father issues. I like that sort of trauma in a man. That anger of being rejected/betrayed/abused at an early age makes for an interesting individual. Many men train themselves to be brilliant in order to compensate for how worthless they felt in their mother's (or father's) care. I practice a sort of mating ritual in order to draw such men. Usually I begin with the ones who are already attracted to my independence, I find out more about them, and then highlight certain aspects of myself. I dish out tough love like a father, or rare moments of encompassing affection like a mother. Either way, I am never at hand. Always somewhat unattainable. This resembles something that the man has felt before, and he becomes hooked.

Of course there are many layers I don't have time to articulate. But men with father/mother issues can be a real catch. If you take the time to listen to him, understand him, and nurture him, you fill a void that should've been filled by his parents. You do something that his mother should've done, and you rival her in the power and control you have over him.

Of course, having such power, like any true power, can be a heavy weight to carry. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who are so psychologically scarred that they would want to cultivate that extreme devotion in another.

[Baby Caydey]

i fink dat its how cute they r too. i love how diapers an ova baby stuffs feel when im using dem. dey feel cute and dey look cute to me wen girls r using them. Even girls acting like a baby i fink is cute. Acting and tawking babyish and using baby stuff makes me feel innocent and child like and dis makes me feel free to be rweal. i fink i turn submisve wen i get diaper changes an stuff, but its cuz i like people to no dat i am wet or smelly an it makes me feel even more babyish cuz i have to be changed.

[tris]

Wrong topic, caydey, we were having a real conversation here. Take the baby talk to the Baby Talk subsection.

[jenniebear]

Ha, funny that, I always seem to end up with men who have mother/father issues. I like that sort of trauma in a man. That anger of being rejected/betrayed/abused at an early age makes for an interesting individual. Many men train themselves to be brilliant in order to compensate for how worthless they felt in their mother's (or father's) care. I practice a sort of mating ritual in order to draw such men. Usually I begin with the ones who are already attracted to my independence, I find out more about them, and then highlight certain aspects of myself. I dish out tough love like a father, or rare moments of encompassing affection like a mother. Either way, I am never at hand. Always somewhat unattainable. This resembles something that the man has felt before, and he becomes hooked.

Of course there are many layers I don't have time to articulate. But men with father/mother issues can be a real catch. If you take the time to listen to him, understand him, and nurture him, you fill a void that should've been filled by his parents. You do something that his mother should've done, and you rival her in the power and control you have over him.

Of course, having such power, like any true power, can be a heavy weight to carry. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who are so psychologically scarred that they would want to cultivate that extreme devotion in another.

Interesting and maybe a little too close to home for me...and prolly my Daddy too....though He'd never admit such....

Mean Mommy has illustrated one of the most intriguing things i love about the Dominants i've met ... is not just that they have a creative side...but there is always this level of intellect that is somehow different from others ....their minds seem to always be putting together a puzzle...or maybe more accurate is they play life like a good chess player plays chess......everything is about strategy......they are over achievers...people who don't just "take things easy"...they map everything out so that there is no room for mistake....

My experiences might be a bit limited......or maybe that's just a trait i've gravitated towards when it came to Dominants.......but it's definitely a trait i am attracted to.........mentally One has to be ahead of me to make me desire to follow

as for this sub...it's not been easy to find someone who could accept and appreciate the devotion i've longed to give....often in relationships i've had to limit it...keep it bound and hidden as most people find it too much.......or who take it for granted or don't recognize or acknowledge it for what it is......to have found the One who appreciates who i am...nurtures me....pushes me...believes in me.....and who allows me to shower Him with adoration and devotion....is like living inside my ultimate fantasy.....

[Topguy]

Personally, I am not in this to play "amatuer therapist" I'm neither inclined or qualified to fill such a role. I'll leave that to professionals. My interests tend more towards an all around happy situation. I take care of sorting out my own issues-I expect someone I am with the be adult enough to do the same. There is a big difference between offering a sounding board for some self insight-and being a crutch for a perpetual cripple.

I'm not the least interested in "power". I have my own, and that's quite enough for me. My days of megalomania faded out when that nasty thing called "reality" bullied it's way past the barriers I created out of idiotic fantasies involving Domination.

These days, I just have the realization that I do this for fun. And if it's not going to have more fun than pain, I will run like my tail is on fire. Wounded birds are pretty much an anathema to me. Relationships are about synergy-and how well people share positive things with each others.

When I meet someone new,that is always what I have on my mind. Who are you?

Not "who would I like you to be?"

One works, the other seldom does.

[tris]

I will say that mommy up there has got some spot-on psychoanalysis. That's hardcore killa type stuff right there! Maybe I'm just too existential and live-in-and-for-the-moment kinda guy to stop and really see those things, but I'm glad somebody does.

How does that game work out for you, long term?

Many men train themselves to be brilliant in order to compensate for how worthless they felt in their mother's (or father's) care.

You hit me in the chest with that. Is this a statement of your own devising, or did you read this somewhere? Elaborate.

[Mostest Anonomi]

Mean Mommy, that is really interesting analysis and I have a funny feeling you are right on. Damn it I'm probably going to delete this in the morning when I'm sober and awake but I have to say this now... I technically should be submissive and emotionally I often feel that way. While I am sexually attracted to the submissive woman who is dependent and psychologically unstable, I wouldn't want this anywhere outside the bedroom. The biggest thing I look for is someone I'm compatible with, someone who is fun to be around and someone who is independent. My parents, something I usually don't discuss even with my sister and close friends, can be very frustrating due to their lack of support (even though I generally get along with them very well).

You are probably also right about hiding behind that veil of 'I'm brilliant', but I don't care to look at it that way. I hardly ever talk about what's bothering me and this suits me fine because I can just forget about it. All the insecurities dissolve into thin air when I act like I'm the coolest, happiest and most outgoing person... and that actually becomes true after awhile of acting the part.

But I have to say... can the fact that people "train themselves to be brilliant in order to compensate for how worthless they felt in their mother's (or father's) care" be any other way? How do you even survive when you dwell on the crap you have (and most people have) in their past? It seems that every person must forget about it and find some way to get over it no matter what the issue is.

I also wonder why I'm sexually attracted to one type of person and emotionally attracted to a completely opposite type. Any ideas???

[tris]

We're human and it's beautiful.

[Mean Mommy]

Topguy...eh. First of all I'm not a licensed psychologist, and I know this. I would even argue that psychology is hardly a science (how exactly do you corroborate the findings from experiments without interpreting the findings? It's dangerously subjective). I've made the mistake of taking myself too seriously before, which is why I am constantly aware of my limitations now. But I do like power, and I like people who respond to power. It is one of the many layers that make up my relationship with another person. There is, of course, more to a relationship than that. So BLEH hater! Why don't you go drink some Haterade between those posts. >P

Just because I muttered something wise does not mean I'm omniscient. I've put a lot of thought into the politics of power in personal relationships. I may not have the best advice - or even good advice - outside of something I haven't meditated on as thoroughly as I have that.

Mostest Anonomi: I don't know why you do what you do - only you will be able to know that through experience and reflection. But I'll make a few guesses. You have dominant tendencies like I do. In fact, you seem to look for the same things I look for in a mate. Independence on the outside, dependence and psychological instability on the inside. These don't have to belong to two separate people. I can say from personal experience that the more independent and invulnerable a person seems to be; the more likely they’re hiding a cracked and dependent nature. It's a matter of getting them to trust you and let you in. Once you are in it is very hard - perhaps impossible - to be free of their devotion in one way or another. You are stroking some very powerful emotions. You will never be seen with indifference afterwards. Even if you do break it off - once you have filled that void, showed them that unconditional love in just the way they needed it - they will hate you intensely for betraying them.

But if you are as fucked up as I am it does not matter whether it is hate or love, just as long as it’s something. Because we - being dominants - are concerned with control. And receiving love/hate is a form of control, it shows us how influential we are. Once we have control we know it is safe to love, we will not be rejected, because we carefully planned it (or I carefully planned it, I don't know how you go about dominating your lovers) so that rejection is impossible.

Why are we attracted to one thing inside the bedroom and the complete opposite outside the bedroom? Because we are complicated, and because we are engaging different sides of ourselves in these arenas. We do not wish to entertain our deeper desires 24/7. We don't want to take a roadtrip with a sniveling submissive, we want to roadtrip with a capable and intelligent companion. We have other sides of ourselves to offer other than these dark fantasies. You may also like the idea (as I do) of watching an independent formidable girlfriend break down into a pathetic helpless fuck slave behind closed doors. The juxtaposition is a pleasing one, and is a side of her only you have the privilege to see.

You mentioned your parents and being frustrated. I may be projecting but I sense anger, which is what I too feel toward my parents. I think many dominants have unresolved anger that influences how they act sexually and connect intimately.

Being brilliant is only one response to feeling worthless in the eyes of those who were meant to love you the most. The obvious (and more direct thing) other people do is actually become worthless: either by not contributing to society (not having a job, etc), becoming a criminal, a vagabond, what have you. Others turn to drugs and alcohol to (temporarily) dull the pain. Others become angry, abusive - the list of possible reactions go on and on.

Striving for brilliance is by far the best response out of all of these, but it still doesn't completely remedy the pain. All of these "solutions" negate the pain only for a short while. Freud would list them under "defense mechanisms" (if that means anything anyway). The only way to move on from this is to do one of the hardest things one can do: recognize these feelings, accept them as a part of yourself, forgive your mother and father for doing this and lastly (and the hardest step of all) forgive yourself.

It's easy to say...and that's as easy as it gets.

Tris: I did not paraphrase that; that quote came out of my own head. While usually parading about under the guise of distracted stupidity, I do get flashes of insight from time to time.

How does it work out for me? Well, I did accomplish my objective. I have had two men that are devoted to me who I love very much. But I’ve also been plagued by guilt, and overwhelmed by their needs. It can be almost sickening how dedicated I had to be in order to get what I want. I had to provide for someone, I had to be their refuge, and sometimes being that strong (or appearing that strong) is incredibly daunting.

The hardest lesson I learned is that when the time is right, being a cold-hearted bitch is the most compassionate thing you can do.

And back to what Topguy said: I’m no simple megalomaniac, Mr. Topguy. I can not just be appeased with simple domination. I have to be attracted to the subject, I have to like him. So when I meet a man, I must be interested in who he is in order to go about seducing him. This kind of meticulous attention can only be inspired by love – otherwise it would be hell.