Androgynous-Feminine Leaning Gender Identity

[Eir]

Okay. If you have read my profile lately you know that I have a very strong feminine side. I took a test at Laura's Playground called the COGIATI. It measures the transgender potencial for men. Here is the link: http://www.lauras-playground.com/cogiati_gender_test.htm I took the test and I scored a 120. This score, corresponds to Androgyne and is 9 points away from potential transsexual. Slightly confusing matters, my mind has crated a persona to deal with and contain these feelings. I have a few realeases, things like cooking, walking in the rain, swimming, especially in full clothes make we feel very feminine and satisfies that other side. I also have a strong mascuiline side. Meaning that I am not trans, but Androgynous. I am physically attracted to women, (though I always feel a mix of body envy attraction) and have problems getting along and socializing with most men, especially "real men." Also, The test did mention that for my category, taking drastic measures could cause serious unhappiness.

I wish to appear as a woman, but am not willing to be castrated, cross dress, or wear makeup, as I would find these things distressing. I also know that my immediate family would have an extremely strong, and extremely negative reaction. I tried to tell my folks once that I have a feminine side, I was sent to a councilor who instructed me to break off the (forces) that were causing this feminine identity, and told me to do the practices in the Who I am In (insert deity) workbook. I did the exercises and I learned not to mention such things again. My mother was deeply concerned about the eschatological consequences that would arise from me giving in to (this thing), and that it is (extremely serious). She also said that in all honesty, (that gay males, and (men who think they are women)) Actually mock women, and they hate them. I read the same sacred text that she reads, and have come to a very different conclusion. Needless to say my spirit does not aggree with, much less understand my mother's position. It makes no sense to me that the righteous judge would make criminals in order to punish them. There is a very high chance that I would be disowned, even if I came out about having and androgynous-feminine gender, with no intentions of transitioning. My mother's position on transitioning is that (trans persons are pretending to be the other sex, that there is no such thing as transgendering, and that it is not possible for someone to be "trapped in the wrong body" because (insert deity) does not make mistakes. My position, is that I have my own (Personal relationship with the deity), that I was created just as I was intended to be (The androgynous-feminine identity was intentional and good).

I have no desire to criticize the value of faith, or slander the practicioners of my faith, that is why I have obscured all terms. My mother appers to regard not 'dealing with' repressing or getting rid of the gender issues I have mentioned to be a grave transgression. She actually considers transsexualism to be an open rebellion against (the deity), which is a grave and fatal sin. Also, knowing that I would be regarded as an apostate by my immediate family, and most of my extended family is simply too painful to bear. I know that (the deity) approves of my androgynous-feminine gender, this should be enough, but it isn't. I have no quilt over having an androgynous-feminine gender, but the frustration of knowing how my family would react if it were known that I accepted having an androgynous-feminine gender has been heavy on me, and won't leave my mind.

[Valisia]

Terry sweety. The first thing that comes to mind in this situation is to find a transsexual therapist. I realize you have no intention of transitioning but they may be able to help you understand yourself better without making you regret your other self.

As of appearing as a woman in public the only thing I can possibly think of is maybe trying a wig out in public since your not into the whole cross-dressing thing or makeup and see how that goes.

I honestly would not tell your parents about it without first discussing your feelings and desires with a councilor.

I am curious though. Do you see yourself as a man or a woman when you think about yourself?

[Eir]

1. As for your question, do I see myself as a man or a woman. The answer is both. From time to time, I will see myself as female, "actually" see through her eyes, it is a little strange. It has happened to me a few times while driving. My vision "shifted" My mind actually pictured a blonde woman (me) driving my car. It has also happened while walking, daydreaming, and while going about my business. My profile explains this in greater depth. I feel like a tok'ra to some degree, two sentient beings sharing the same body. I feel like I am a host to this female persona, and the body is shared equally. Going with the Tok'ra analogy, there are some things that make my eyes glow. Walking in the rain, spending time in nature, cooking and swimming make me feel very feminine and are outlets for these feelings.

2. Honestly, I would not tell my parents period. I am not living at home, but my familiy is still supporting me, (w/ housing during grad school.) That would be maladaptive of me to risk that support.

3. The idea of appearing as a woman in public makes me feel, beyond naked.

4. I am reluctant to go to a councilor. I do not have guilt issues at this point. What I have is a great deal of frustration that my family would never accept me having a second female persona if they knew. That I would be punished for that thought crime even if I never acted on it. Also, I am very close to them, and it would cause me a great deal of pain if I lost that closeness.

5. Thank you for your response!

[Valisia]

I can understand how you feel about the pain of possibility of losing family. Let's face it when I told everyone me and my family shifted. I had the support of some and the rest..... well lets just say we don't speak often anymore >.>

It's not that I don't care about them anymore its more that they will do anything in there power to stop me if possible.

BTW took that test thingy and scored a 300 XD

[Eir]

I can understand how you feel about the pain of possibility of losing family. Let's face it when I told everyone me and my family shifted. I had the support of some and the rest..... well lets just say we don't speak often anymore >.>

It's not that I don't care about them anymore its more that they will do anything in there power to stop me if possible.

BTW took that test thingy and scored a 300 XD

See! There's the difference. You are probable transsexual, very close to transsexual. I am an Feminine Androgyne. You are higher up the trans scale, whereas I have very strong masculine and feminine sides, that is what is so awkward, two genders in one body!

[Guest Baby Rina]

I think one of the biggest plusses i've had in my life over this whole topic is how fractured and factionalized my family is. No three of my mom's sisters can get along and dad and his sister were never on speaking terms. Which means that the idea of being repulsed by my extended family was never a big worry, and that with a huge rift between my mom and i already being there the concern was minimal. You have to live your life for you and not worry quite as much about that family will say, if they want to break ties that is thier loss.

As far as your Faith that is between you and any divine entities you may believe in. I have my Spirtual Wellness Providers [read deities] that work for me and gives me a sense of purpose and well being. Don't let something like a church obstruct your reliationship with your SWP and make rigid doctrine that casts out things they find objectionable. There are countless churches that can't agree on the way to properly venerate the Christian way of doing things... and then there's other choices on top of that with different SWP if you have a Faith that works for you good, keep doing it and don't worry about the church angle. The celestial can see all on thier own they don't need an intermediary.

I uh... scored a 460 >.>

[Eir]

I think one of the biggest plusses i've had in my life over this whole topic is how fractured and factionalized my family is. No three of my mom's sisters can get along and dad and his sister were never on speaking terms. Which means that the idea of being repulsed by my extended family was never a big worry, and that with a huge rift between my mom and i already being there the concern was minimal. You have to live your life for you and not worry quite as much about that family will say, if they want to break ties that is thier loss.

As far as your Faith that is between you and any divine entities you may believe in. I have my Spirtual Wellness Providers [read deities] that work for me and gives me a sense of purpose and well being. Don't let something like a church obstruct your reliationship with your SWP and make rigid doctrine that casts out things they find objectionable. There are countless churches that can't agree on the way to properly venerate the Christian way of doing things... and then there's other choices on top of that with different SWP if you have a Faith that works for you good, keep doing it and don't worry about the church angle. The celestial can see all on thier own they don't need an intermediary.

I uh... scored a 460 >.>

390 to 650 is transsexual. It is interesting to see people's responses and where people fall on this scale. For Androgynes, I think it would be easier to either be Trans or standard male. Like most men my eyes tend to wonder when women are present. What is very confusing, is that I always feel a mix of sexual attraction and body envy, these two are usually proportional. Being 'straight' for th e sole reason that my female persona is attracted to women makes even less sense. Men, on the other hand completely disgust me when they act like "real men" I would not think of anything beyond friendship, as that is all I can stand!

[Guest Baby Rina]

I don't think it's ever been a question as to whether or not i'm trans Especially this late in the game. I mostly look at other women with body envy but i'm not going to lie there's some attraction there. Men can be kinda yummy if they're well taken groomed, a bit of wild hair and facial hair is nice, but guys who look like they're part mamoth not so much...

But more than any sort of label you need to ask what makes you happy and what do you enjoy... then do more of that, and less of the stuff that makes you mad or sad. That's just basic... I was sad being a boy and happy being a girl so, more of that less of the other for me. You seem a bit confused on it so, experiment seems to be the best thing to do. The weirdest part for me when doing my own makeup as a daily thing was trying to make myself look cute and appealing. Most of my previous makeup experience was in doing effect makeup for horror events and my natural instinct was to give off a more deathly and unhealthy apperance, still is somewhat, natural to want to make my eyes look sunken not popping...

[Eir]

I don't think it's ever been a question as to whether or not i'm trans Especially this late in the game. I mostly look at other women with body envy but i'm not going to lie there's some attraction there. Men can be kinda yummy if they're well taken groomed, a bit of wild hair and facial hair is nice, but guys who look like they're part mamoth not so much...

But more than any sort of label you need to ask what makes you happy and what do you enjoy... then do more of that, and less of the stuff that makes you mad or sad. That's just basic... I was sad being a boy and happy being a girl so, more of that less of the other for me. You seem a bit confused on it so, experiment seems to be the best thing to do. The weirdest part for me when doing my own makeup as a daily thing was trying to make myself look cute and appealing. Most of my previous makeup experience was in doing effect makeup for horror events and my natural instinct was to give off a more deathly and unhealthy apperance, still is somewhat, natural to want to make my eyes look sunken not popping...

Now that I think of it, the reason why cooking makes me happy is it really makes me feel 'womanly', same thing with walking in the rain! I have two tubs of chilli in my fridge, one is pescetarian the other is meat based, 3/4 pound of chorizo, 3 pounds of ground turkey! I enjoy making elaborate meals for myself. One of my favorite breakfasts is 176 grams of couscous, 2 eggs, 3 tablespoons of BBQ sauce, 1 slice of swiss cheese, and 1/2 tbsp of butter for making the omlett. I really would not mind being in my kitchen for the better part of the day! I have stopped making Chinese food nonstop as it is a pain to calculate the calories, and not to mention that it is expensive. I wonder if I can find an apron that is completely closed in the back and sides. This would really feel like a dress to me and keep my feminine persona happy! To keep my feminine side happy I would only wear underwear under it, using it as a dress. I want to find a lot of little things that I can do to make myself feel womanly without drawing too much attention. At school I keep even my wallet in my backpack, and use it as a purse. If I go shopping right after the gym, I use my gym bag as a purse.

[Guest Baby Rina]

That's one of the issues i'm having with moving right now. I LOVE my kitchen that i currently have so while square footage is important ish in the new house it has to have an equally wonderful kitchen. I saw one that was a nice house but had like a galley kitchen and i was like ew no! The one i'm looking at now is less wonderful looking on the outside but does have a decent kitchen, its missing the island my current one has though...

Personally i'm horrible with a purse i have like 3 of them but i rarely seem to carry one with me. Usually i have everything jumbled into my back pockets [most of my jeans don't have front ones] shoved into the pockets of my hoodie [trying to find a nice jacket to replace that so i'll lose those pockets too prolly] clipped too my belt, or tucked into my bra strap...

One thing i've taken to that i love is wearing heels. Nothing spectacular like a 5 inch stilleto or anything, just a 3 to 4 inch block heel. Most people when they hear the noise assume its either cowboy boots or motorcycle boots. Once a woman and her young daughter were at my checkout line and the girl asked why i was wearing heels. The woman told her that i wasn't, they were probably cowboy boots. I slid one off and set it on the register saying that the girl was quite right, and sometimes it really is a zebra. While i really do enjoy wearing heels for the noise they make and how they make me feel, the truth is my lower legs and ankles are in poor shape. The act of wearing heels puts less pressure on the tendons that are the worst meaning that wearing my 3 inch heels at work all day hurt less than my nice sneakers. I recall reading a story once about a guy being in an accident and destroying his tendons and wound up being able only walk in extreme heels, i'm not that bad quite yet but between my wearing heels almost exclusively and my legs not being super it could still happen

The thing about the zebra relates to Occam's razor and that when you hear hooves approaching it's more likely to be horses than zebras ... sometimes though it is the zebra.

[KittenAB]

First you must realize that gender is not a dichotomy like many wish to believe it is. Once you accept that then also note that no test can tell you who or what you are, only you can tell yourself that.

Ditch the religious ignorance, I mean ignore it completely, if your parents truly love you then they will accept you no matter what choice you make on this matter, if they don't, there is a huge family waiting out in the rest of the world for you. You do not have to sacrifice religion either, just don't let it influence your choices nor allow it to stop you from making yourself happy so long as you harm no one else ... it's all good.

Final matter on the religious aspect, no deity of any sort would condemn it's creation for something this silly.

As for your self image, do what you think makes you more you, it's simpler than you would think. Anyone who judges you at all for being yourself is not secure in themselves. Japan has a very gender fluid social structure, they regard neutral genders (those shedding all gender identity) as being of higher enlightenment than anyone else. Would be great if the western world would achieve such a grand level of fluidity on the matter. In the US many of those mistaken for "emos" are also of that type, they just shed their gender identity and are often incorrectly assumed to be emo because the style of dress tends to appear the same.

[Valisia]

Still think my results are skewed a little since I don't really listen to music at all XD so I just picked one that sounded good >.>

[J Y F]

All in all, i agree with KittenAB's point of view. It bothers me that some people might actually take this test seriously... Many of the questions on this test are rather outdated and though it is based on certain "official psychology" tests, these official tests are still disputed even and...especially in the scientific field. I can't go into the details because there are...a lot and I don't have that much time. You can read the maker's description of what it is...http://www.transsexual.org/wordoncogiati.html

She states it's a prototype, but I honestly feel that that may already be giving it too much credibility. Please remember that many of the questions on her test are tailored more towards people who are naturally, by their genetics, born as male or female. As far as I know, there have been no conclusive controlled tests about transexuality that could warrant the creation of an actual transexual test as Laura has attempted to make.

[Valisia]

You make an interesting case ^.^

[Eir]

All in all, i agree with KittenAB's point of view. It bothers me that some people might actually take this test seriously... Many of the questions on this test are rather outdated and though it is based on certain "official psychology" tests, these official tests are still disputed even and...especially in the scientific field. I can't go into the details because there are...a lot and I don't have that much time. You can read the maker's description of what it is...http://www.transsexu...doncogiati.html

She states it's a prototype, but I honestly feel that that may already be giving it too much credibility. Please remember that many of the questions on her test are tailored more towards people who are naturally, by their genetics, born as male or female. As far as I know, there have been no conclusive controlled tests about transexuality that could warrant the creation of an actual transexual test as Laura has attempted to make.

JYF, The test found hear has only clarified my feelings. I have always known that I was more "enlightened" than most men. I was the man who when he was in elementary school, would look in the mirror before a shower, put his hands on his hair, imagine what it would look like if it were long, and try to see myself as a girl. My feelings have been mixed. I did enjoy rough and tumble play every now and again, but would tire from a steady diet of it. What I have always hated most about men is the crassness, especially in crude sexual humor. You know what I am talking about, those jokes back in middle school, where the punchline was always ass, pussy, or butt sex. I would instinctively raise my pinky when I poured water. I would make slipups, asking if there was something like the Miss America Pageant for boys, things of that nature. I said, no I don't want to look made up, I want to know if guys can show off and compete on TV, not sure if everyone bought on that. Expressions of both genders are quite natural to me. I believe that I am androgynous-feminine. One of the most awkward things, is that my eyes wander when a very attractive woman walks by. Most guys are thinking I want to "do" her. I still want to make out with her, but I also want to be her. I always feel a mix of sexual attraction and body envy. The more attractive I find a woman to be, the more envious I am of her body.

[Diapered Jason]

I took the test out of curiosity and scored a -65, but I do see myself as a male with a few feminine qualities. I agree with Kitten in that the test focused quite a bit on traditional gender roles. Even the first question was about math. Automatic -10 there, lol, kind of dumb. There was a couple of questions though that dealt with how you see gender, but I think they were there to separate the transgender from the cross-dresser, which were -10 for me. This may sound narcissistic, but I do what I want to do. In high school, I was really good at sports, especially wrestling. I am an engineer and a scientist (my avatar speaks to this) in a field where there are only a few females (males outnumber them about 10 to 1), but certainly, I encourage more females to become engineers. I listen to metal. I like playing video games like Call of Duty and Elder Scrolls. A couple of things that separate me from the uber masculine male is I am not concerned with doing something just to prove my masculinity. Philosophically, I think compassion is the strongest force in the universe. It is much stronger than fear. I have not ever regarded femininity as a weakness. In fact, in a room filled with all male engineers, it could very well be a strength as it provides a different perspective. Of course, I like feminine clothing and the color pink.

Terry, I never thought I would hear someone use the Tok'Ra (against Ra) as an analogy for having two personalities. Good show! This analogy though is something I definitely do not have for myself. I am one person. Perhaps you would benefit if you take the best qualities from each personality and combine them into one somehow. It is hard to say if that is actually a good idea though, because I lack an understanding of this.

[Codymoogle]

that is what is so awkward, two genders in one body!

I'm not one to try to label, but what I quoted above immediately brought one word to mind - bigender. What labels you accept to describe your identity are obviously your own choice (as no one else lives your life or shares your mind), but that's what I got from your posts. Ultimately, the only one that can define you is you.

If you'd ever like to talk, just shoot me a PM.

~ moogle

[Eir]

I think traditional masculinity is redonkulous, cold, and unfeeling. I have a lot of sensitivities. Jason, there are a few things that (make my eyes glow) <Let out my female persona for fresh air> It looks like you also scored androgynous. I don't black out when I switch between me, and my female persona. I remember everything. Unless I want to walk around in a long flowing dress, curly blonde hair down to my waist, madeup, I don't see how I can combine the two.

[Diapered Jason]

Well Terry, you might be fairly comfortable with your male side. You can try exploring your feminine side more and see what happens. You do not necessarily have to be concerned with your physical appearance, but if it helps, why not. Maybe think about how you feel and react to things. Many people have an innate perception of things imposed on them by our culture and is based on their gender. I know you are probably beyond this in many regards, but there is always more to unlock and open your mind to.

One other thing, just because we can be feminine, it does not necessarily follow we must be feminine, because we do not need to impose on ourselves the limitations and binds of society. I recommend you do what you feel is right and be shameless about it. Certainly in some regards, it is more advantageous to be more masculine than feminine and vice versa. This of course is a perception that all depends on you, nothing else.

[Bettypooh]

I go back a decade into TG and know literally dozens of TS's, TG's, and CD's, many of whose COGIATI score is nowhere near their real self so I do not place much value on it beyond it helping to open your eyes to alternatives. It is most certainly not something to define yourself by

I suggest that instead of seeking a label to apply to yourself, that you just explore who you are and accept the person you find. If you do that process honestly, you are left with only the person who was created, and that cannot possibly be bad or wrong. Society is to blame for the idea that there are genders of any kind. Nature made sexes (and there are more than two of them) but there is no 'wrong' gender and in carrying that thought to a logical conclusion there is no transgender- only people being themselves and people not being themselves I claim the TG label only to help people understand that I am not who you might expect me to be based on any other factors, I am different

Love can overcome many hurdles. I have an accepting sister who believes that I am not a 'child of god' based on her religion but she loves and accepts me anyway. Ditto for my Mom, and with her is also an inability to deconstruct gender from sex- she's a simple minded person who had a gay brother but I am the first TG she ever knowingly met. She can't understand that I am not gay. That was something of a hurdle for me too, for how can a non-male have a male-to-male relationship? Not that this matters. I simply lost the concept of sexual attraction trumping love and went on with life. I will partner with my soulmate if I find them and I couldn't care less about what is between their legs. That will have nothing to do with why I love them

As you find yourself, find a way for that person to express those feelings in a way that works for you. If you find that you're in the entirely wrong body there is help and a course of action to remedy much of that- take it. If it is not needed you don't have to take it. If it's not for you don't take it. And remember, this is a journey, not a race to a goal. You have your entire life to discover everything about you and learn to love you for the good that is in there. Don't let someone else's concepts or labels define you- they may fit for them but they won't fit you because you and I and everyone else is different, and that's how it was meant to be from the beginning!

Bettypooh