Dead Topic

[Eric D]

I agree. I find his actions horrendous and I resent him even being associated with our community.

I also find it very scary that the majority of the posts here have lost sight of the fact that this man is a human being, like everyone else posting here. Suggesting that we kill or harm people only "fuels the fire" and creates more violence where there was less before, and reinforces the notion that criminal justice should be about punishment instead of rehabilitation. Food for thought: About 80% of violent criminals reoffend after being released. You can decide for yourself if our Western ideas of criminal punishment really work. Societally speaking, the justice system serves to remove those from society that are deemed unworthy, not help them become worthy - which, if I am not mistaken, is one of our overriding ideas of community. To help, not harm, right? I'm *not* suggesting we don't subject the man to some kind of societal justice, I think jail time would be appropriate with concurrent psychological intervention.

He is a very mentally ill human being by our Western societal standards, there is no question there, but he is still a human being and deserving of his life and person, as well as a chance to become something different.

I, like Baby Bethany, am getting out of this thread, y'all are just creeping me out.

you say it yourself - 80% reoffend - it's an exceptionally high figure.. and proves that what is being done doesn't work.

now, ok if someone goes and robs a bank he most likely ends up in jail for the better part of 8 to 15 years and often quite a bit more...

if he comes, rapes and molests your daughter or wife he's getting 2-4 often out after one or 2 and some psychological treatment (Which usually doesn't work). - Call it whatever you want, but it is not justice - and a man who goes so far as to rape, torture and molest CHILDREN - has at least in my eyes lost his last bit of a right to live. I'm fine with putting that piece of junk away for the rest of his life, and I'd be ok with giving him the option to decide to commit suicide and even the means to do it if he can't stand life long imprisonment.

We creep you out?? hell - in what world do you live? Lala-lala-dream world?

How would you react if a childmolester who had just seriously raped your daughter or son would get a 4 year prision sentence and after that be absoultely free to roam the streets again? after most likely having quite possibly destroyed a good life for your child?

Life often ain't pretty. and pretty solutions don't work in ugly moments.

[Baby Bethany]

you say it yourself - 80% reoffend - it's an exceptionally high figure.. and proves that what is being done doesn't work.

now, ok if someone goes and robs a bank he most likely ends up in jail for the better part of 8 to 15 years and often quite a bit more...

if he comes, rapes and molests your daughter or wife he's getting 2-4 often out after one or 2 and some psychological treatment (Which usually doesn't work). - Call it whatever you want, but it is not justice - and a man who goes so far as to rape, torture and molest CHILDREN - has at least in my eyes lost his last bit of a right to live. I'm fine with putting that piece of junk away for the rest of his life, and I'd be ok with giving him the option to decide to commit suicide and even the means to do it if he can't stand life long imprisonment.

We creep you out?? hell - in what world do you live? Lala-lala-dream world?

How would you react if a childmolester who had just seriously raped your daughter or son would get a 4 year prision sentence and after that be absoultely free to roam the streets again? after most likely having quite possibly destroyed a good life for your child?

Life often ain't pretty. and pretty solutions don't work in ugly moments.

Sorry, I said I'd gone but I feel this is an important thread.

You seem to think Eric that I am saying that the current judicial system is okay, but that's not the case. I've explained above that I consider the current system to be a farce, I agree 5 years for rape is a joke. Anyone convicted of murder, rape, or child molesting should be put away for life. They should never, I repeat never, be allowed out again. They should only leave when they die.

What I am against is the death sentence. We say that we value human life and a murderer is a monster, but then we have death row. Surely we should all be making a statement to the world that killing a human being is not acceptable. Regardless of the reason.

And then of course there is the issue that Oranges made about mental health. It's no secret that here in the UK there are people walking about the streets that should be living in a mental hospital. The reason they are walking the streets is because our government will not pay for them to be in a hospital. Now, the vast majority of these people are not a danger to anyone (although many are a danger to themselves). However, some of them could hurt me or you or our children. Not because they are evil, but because they are mentally ill and won't know what they are doing. Will we help them? No, because it's too expensive. We will do what we always do, simply wait until someone gets hurt and then, by the law according to most people on here, we will end their life.

I am not saying that all of the people we are talking about have mental health problems, but many do and our society is letting both them and us down.

Take care all

[Baby Bethany]

* Love? Love doesn't solve everything! For instance, if you told Hitler in 1939 that 'you love him' that wouldn't have changed a thing.*

* No, maybe not. But if someone had told him that all of his life..........well, that may have changed everything.*

John Lennon's response in an interview.

[Eric D]

* Love? Love doesn't solve everything! For instance, if you told Hitler in 1939 that 'you love him' that wouldn't have changed a thing.*

* No, maybe not. But if someone had told him that all of his life..........well, that may have changed everything.*

John Lennon's response in an interview.

whilst I have some respect for what lenon has had to say in that interview and am quite fond of his music btw, I think I have to disagree....

sure having been loved would maybe have changed a few things for a guy like hitler, but then again, there are just so many other aspects and possibilities that it's impossible to nail something like that down on the single issue with not having had enough love in his life.

[AbriForm]

Once again, the media fails to separate a fetish from a criminal. Sigh.

[Baby Bethany]

whilst I have some respect for what lenon has had to say in that interview and am quite fond of his music btw, I think I have to disagree....

sure having been loved would maybe have changed a few things for a guy like hitler, but then again, there are just so many other aspects and possibilities that it's impossible to nail something like that down on the single issue with not having had enough love in his life.

I agree that there are many aspects to this, rather than just giving someone love......still a good quote though!

Take care

Beth

[Oranges]

you say it yourself - 80% reoffend - it's an exceptionally high figure.. and proves that what is being done doesn't work.

now, ok if someone goes and robs a bank he most likely ends up in jail for the better part of 8 to 15 years and often quite a bit more...

if he comes, rapes and molests your daughter or wife he's getting 2-4 often out after one or 2 and some psychological treatment (Which usually doesn't work). - Call it whatever you want, but it is not justice - and a man who goes so far as to rape, torture and molest CHILDREN - has at least in my eyes lost his last bit of a right to live. I'm fine with putting that piece of junk away for the rest of his life, and I'd be ok with giving him the option to decide to commit suicide and even the means to do it if he can't stand life long imprisonment.

We creep you out?? hell - in what world do you live? Lala-lala-dream world?

How would you react if a childmolester who had just seriously raped your daughter or son would get a 4 year prision sentence and after that be absoultely free to roam the streets again? after most likely having quite possibly destroyed a good life for your child?

Life often ain't pretty. and pretty solutions don't work in ugly moments.

I also said I'd stay out, but I'm bored and I checked up on my last few posts.

@Eric D:

I am a clinical psychology student, specializing in addiction - so you know my bias before I reply to your comments.

Since this is (as usual) an emotional hot-button topic, I really don't wish to argue or debate what "dream world" I live in, because that would be pointless and unconstructive and drive us off-topic.

To your point of how I would feel - certainly I would feel fearful or angry! I am human too, and I have emotion. However, if the person can prove they have changed, then what do I need to fear beyond my own preconceptions? Your view only holds if you see people as incapable of change.

Your assumptions about psychological intervention in prisons seem pretty off-the-cuff - I would suggest reading into the success rates of treatments regarding various types of disorders involving violence and abuse before concluding that they "usually don't work." This assumption would *only* be acceptable if we *actually did* treat people with mental disorders while imprisoned, which we (in Canada and I am fairly certain also in America) generally do not for reasons of both funding and that it just isn't how the justice system is set up to operate.

Now, what we *are* doing is simply jailing people, almost always *without* concurrent treatment for any psychological disorders or often, even proper treatment for their medical conditions. (Heck, I think that alone would make almost anyone angry enough to hate the justice system we live with, and continue to reoffend.)

The figure of people who reoffend is so high precisely because what we are doing does not work, for sure - on that, we have common ground.

Personally, I wish to find effective ways to help manage conditions that cause society serious harm, and disorders involving violence and sexual abuse are certainly part of that category. However, I don't consider taking away someone's life to be an effective deterrent to stopping this kind of heinous behaviour in society. It might work for that one person, but it is not a sustainable method of ensuring anything except the almost completely ineffective status quo - which we agree isn't working.

Quite frankly, my drive in responding to this topic at all was to suggest that everyone suffers when we focus on our ridiculous methods of "crime reduction", such as killing, bodily harm, and imprisonment. Evidently, people seem to be more interested in exacting petty, self-interested revenge instead of considering *why* people do the things they do, and working to reduce them and help those who are suffering with serious problems.

Until our collective justice system and relevant laws are re-examined to emphasize rehabilitation instead of punishment, we will be forever trapped in a 'revolving door' justice system keeping not only people behind bars, but our social improvement imprisoned along with it.

I know it doesn't sound as simple or "pretty" as killing or reducing people to human beings bent on reoffending because of the wrongs they have suffered at the hands of a punitive system that has caused them nothing but pain, but like you said - pretty solutions don't work in ugly moments, right?

If you took the time to read all of my post, thank you - I appreciate being able to express myself on this forum.

Oranges

[Eric D]

I also said I'd stay out, but I'm bored and I checked up on my last few posts.

@Eric D:

I am a clinical psychology student, specializing in addiction - so you know my bias before I reply to your comments.

Since this is (as usual) an emotional hot-button topic, I really don't wish to argue or debate what "dream world" I live in, because that would be pointless and unconstructive and drive us off-topic.

To your point of how I would feel - certainly I would feel fearful or angry! I am human too, and I have emotion. However, if the person can prove they have changed, then what do I need to fear beyond my own preconceptions? Your view only holds if you see people as incapable of change.

Your assumptions about psychological intervention in prisons seem pretty off-the-cuff - I would suggest reading into the success rates of treatments regarding various types of disorders involving violence and abuse before concluding that they "usually don't work." This assumption would *only* be acceptable if we *actually did* treat people with mental disorders while imprisoned, which we (in Canada and I am fairly certain also in America) generally do not for reasons of both funding and that it just isn't how the justice system is set up to operate.

Now, what we *are* doing is simply jailing people, almost always *without* concurrent treatment for any psychological disorders or often, even proper treatment for their medical conditions. (Heck, I think that alone would make almost anyone angry enough to hate the justice system we live with, and continue to reoffend.)

The figure of people who reoffend is so high precisely because what we are doing does not work, for sure - on that, we have common ground.

Personally, I wish to find effective ways to help manage conditions that cause society serious harm, and disorders involving violence and sexual abuse are certainly part of that category. However, I don't consider taking away someone's life to be an effective deterrent to stopping this kind of heinous behaviour in society. It might work for that one person, but it is not a sustainable method of ensuring anything except the almost completely ineffective status quo - which we agree isn't working.

Quite frankly, my drive in responding to this topic at all was to suggest that everyone suffers when we focus on our ridiculous methods of "crime reduction", such as killing, bodily harm, and imprisonment. Evidently, people seem to be more interested in exacting petty, self-interested revenge instead of considering *why* people do the things they do, and working to reduce them and help those who are suffering with serious problems.

Until our collective justice system and relevant laws are re-examined to emphasize rehabilitation instead of punishment, we will be forever trapped in a 'revolving door' justice system keeping not only people behind bars, but our social improvement imprisoned along with it.

I know it doesn't sound as simple or "pretty" as killing or reducing people to human beings bent on reoffending because of the wrongs they have suffered at the hands of a punitive system that has caused them nothing but pain, but like you said - pretty solutions don't work in ugly moments, right?

If you took the time to read all of my post, thank you - I appreciate being able to express myself on this forum.

Oranges

Oranges,

I indeed took the time to read all your post, and I thank your for your open contribution to this thematic, trying to explain your point of view.

I agree with some of the points you raise - that help shoul be provided. fact stays that in most places someone who rapes a girl gets away with 2-4 years IF ANY AT ALL. and some counselling.

I'm not too fond of psychological treatments... it often doesn't change who someone is or has become - I believe that in some cases with a good psychologist a lot can be done, but it's no "guarantee".

There was a not too recent case here in Switzerland of a guy who had raped a teenage (15 or so) girl and went to prision for it, after the first year his mostly solitary confinment and keeping in a higher-security prision was reduced to a stay in a psychiatric facility with a closed (prision) tract... after another six months of "successful" treatment a the doctors had written down on paper he was allowed his first "free" weekend to go out on his own and report back on sunday evening... you know what the first thing was that bastard did on saturdays afternoon? yes - rape another girl.

as he was already doing time it was extended and his right for "free-walks" were removed once again. But basically I don't even hold the guy totally responsible at all for the second rape - I think the docs who said he was ok to walk around should get the equal prision time... it's not the only case in that range of things-gone-wrong.

To your point of how I would feel - certainly I would feel fearful or angry! I am human too, and I have emotion. However, if the person can prove they have changed, then what do I need to fear beyond my own preconceptions?

it's not about what *I* would have to fear... after all I'm not directly afraid of the offender - I might be worried for the children, girls, possible victims.

BUT - that man possibly destroyd a life of a person - some argue that being raped and having been molested is quite worse than actually getting killed as the victim has to live with this for the rest of his/hers life.

I know a few girls who have been raped, I know two who's father has seriously abused them - and in both child-abuse cases it's almost 15-20 years ago and one of the girls has four suicide attempts, a drug addiction and many other issues "on her list"... the drug addiciton, she managed to get rid of that, she hasn't tried sucide now for some time - but she hates herself - actually feels guilty, and has a very very low self-esteem...

She has seen various "shrinks" over time to not much avail...

it's a very similar issue with the other victims I know btw. All their lifes have had a major bad impact FORCED UPON - and the guy who did it, in every single case walks free again. He may have never done anything like this again (in one case the offender actually did it again, was jailed for three years and then released AGAIN)... but the lifes are still "destroyed".

if any of these girls one day goes and grabs a gun, shoots the bastard in the head I think by all that's good and bad, she should get away with this clean.

I know it doesn't change what has happened but at least the bastard will never, ever do anything like that again, and for sure will not even by chance enjoy his life -as there is none.

Jail such offenders for life - I'm fine with that. but just don't for some psychological treatmen for a couple of years think someone is "healed" and harmless.

it's a sensitive topic for sure.

[Baby Bethany]

I also said I'd stay out, but I'm bored and I checked up on my last few posts.

@Eric D:

I am a clinical psychology student, specializing in addiction - so you know my bias before I reply to your comments.

Since this is (as usual) an emotional hot-button topic, I really don't wish to argue or debate what "dream world" I live in, because that would be pointless and unconstructive and drive us off-topic.

To your point of how I would feel - certainly I would feel fearful or angry! I am human too, and I have emotion. However, if the person can prove they have changed, then what do I need to fear beyond my own preconceptions? Your view only holds if you see people as incapable of change.

Your assumptions about psychological intervention in prisons seem pretty off-the-cuff - I would suggest reading into the success rates of treatments regarding various types of disorders involving violence and abuse before concluding that they "usually don't work." This assumption would *only* be acceptable if we *actually did* treat people with mental disorders while imprisoned, which we (in Canada and I am fairly certain also in America) generally do not for reasons of both funding and that it just isn't how the justice system is set up to operate.

Now, what we *are* doing is simply jailing people, almost always *without* concurrent treatment for any psychological disorders or often, even proper treatment for their medical conditions. (Heck, I think that alone would make almost anyone angry enough to hate the justice system we live with, and continue to reoffend.)

The figure of people who reoffend is so high precisely because what we are doing does not work, for sure - on that, we have common ground.

Personally, I wish to find effective ways to help manage conditions that cause society serious harm, and disorders involving violence and sexual abuse are certainly part of that category. However, I don't consider taking away someone's life to be an effective deterrent to stopping this kind of heinous behaviour in society. It might work for that one person, but it is not a sustainable method of ensuring anything except the almost completely ineffective status quo - which we agree isn't working.

Quite frankly, my drive in responding to this topic at all was to suggest that everyone suffers when we focus on our ridiculous methods of "crime reduction", such as killing, bodily harm, and imprisonment. Evidently, people seem to be more interested in exacting petty, self-interested revenge instead of considering *why* people do the things they do, and working to reduce them and help those who are suffering with serious problems.

Until our collective justice system and relevant laws are re-examined to emphasize rehabilitation instead of punishment, we will be forever trapped in a 'revolving door' justice system keeping not only people behind bars, but our social improvement imprisoned along with it.

I know it doesn't sound as simple or "pretty" as killing or reducing people to human beings bent on reoffending because of the wrongs they have suffered at the hands of a punitive system that has caused them nothing but pain, but like you said - pretty solutions don't work in ugly moments, right?

If you took the time to read all of my post, thank you - I appreciate being able to express myself on this forum.

Oranges

I agree,

Although I'm not a psychologist like you Oranges, I worked for many years in sheltered housing here in the UK. (providing housing for vulnerable people). Now, most of the people we provided housing for had simple learning disabilities etc. They could look after themselves like you and me, but maybe they couldn't read and write or something like that. So they needed us to help them with things that me and you take for granted. However, many of the people we housed had various stages of mental illness or disability.

Many of these people harmed themselves (either self harming on purpose, or by accident) and many of them had harmed others in the past (usually by accident). It was no secret that many of them should be cared for 24/7. But because this is expensive we let them live at home and a carer would visit to see how they are. Our charity was underfunded and the mental health sector in general was and is underfunded and misunderstood. For example, I have seen a mentally ill adult (who can't wash, dress, feed or use the loo themselves) being cared for by a 14 year old.

I also remember one guy, who had a mental age of about 8 (he was about late 40's). Now he lived alone in one of our houses (would you let a 8 year old live on their own?) with regular visits from a career. He was often scared and would come into our offices to talk to someone, because he found the house scary. We often saw he had burns, bruises and cuts.....just from his everyday living. The reason I mention this guy is because he liked children, no he wasn't a pedophile (he had no sexual desire) he just liked to talk and play with kids. If he was out and he saw a group of kids he would go and talk to them and would want to join in. This guy had been reported to the police on many occasions, mainly by parents that had seen him hanging around their kids. Unfortunately, he had also harmed some. Again, not sexually, not because he was evil (he was a happy guy that would bring you presents) but because he didn't realise his own strength and in playing around had knocked a kid over or something.

I just used this as an example of someone who should be given more care by our society.....he, and others like him are being let down by us.

I'll just finish by telling you a great quote I heard when I was training for that job (Oranges, you may have heard this one) it asks the question of how does it feel to have mental illness. "If you believe that you are going insane, you are not.......if you were, you would never realise it"

Take care all

Beth

[daclosetdl]

I live in Edmonton and get the other leading news paper the Edmonton journal and it didn't mention the whole AB connection and from the news on television it is not being associated with the AB/DL community at large. The story I've heard is more the guy is a sick individual he has been processed by our judicial system and sadly received a sentence I don't find fitting. Unfortunately it is the law of the land here and in a democracy all one can do is put their vote for the parties which see this as a very real problem and vow to make changes.