[Surgery to cause incontinence? What if it becomes "normalized"?]

My view on the idea of medically-induced U-IC / F-IC via surgery is that it should be made available to those who would qualify for it, in much the same way as reassignment surgery is made available. Access should be granted after a patient has been under the care of a psychiatrist, have been living the life, with the right support. Maybe do a period of time beforehand of using a stent or similar non-permanent system, before surgery is granted. 

[Strange days indeed - a 24 x 7 experiment]

I was near your location a few weeks back, but time wasn’t on my side to organise something. Even had thoughts of dropping in to our favourite supplier. 

 

Next time!

[Strange days indeed - a 24 x 7 experiment]

Ive been getting a lot of pee releases when I feel bowel movements around there, seemingly as stool moves past the bladder it triggers a spasm and release. 

 

I can also just rest my hand/arm over my nappy, which elicites a similar response. I don’t know whether my bladder is full, and weight triggers a stress response, or the bladder being moved triggers a spasm and urge. 

 

Very weird either way. 

[Strange days indeed - a 24 x 7 experiment]

The Tykables are pretty good, and about on par with Barry (they're so similar I've wondered whether they're from the same machine/source).  

I bought a few cases of the Tykables a month or so ago, and before then a case of Betterdry, so I think I'm ok with supply for a while (about 4 months supply if my math is ok).  

I have been extending my daily nappies through use of 60x60 terry cloth baby nappies folded as a soaker pad.  It's a bit of washing, but the nappy life gets extended quite a bit.  

[Should surgery for permanent incontinence be allowed on those who claim to suffer from living in a continent body?]

2 hours ago, FretaBWet said:

The point I was trying to make was that most doctors want to do the best for their patients.

In some cases, by a Dr doing nothing/refusing surgery, they may actually add to the pain that the patient is experiencing.  The patient's mental attitude may be so great that it ultimately comes down to a "I'd rather be dead than deal with the continued anguish of not being IC".  

There are also lots of cases of people attempting to simulate incontinence by use of stents etc requiring emergency intervention.  Some of those are having to do this due to such mental anguish of continence dysphoria. 

This is an _exact_ match for the question of transgender - it literally gets to the point of "if I cannot transition, I'd rather die, because I cannot live like this".  In the days gone by (before T was added to LGB), for some people it was nigh on impossible to transition, and even more so to afford the costs to pay for the surgery, so that question was sometimes answered by suicide.  Today, things are __sooo__ much easier to change documentation, be accepted by family and society, and even have some jurisdictions pay for hormones and surgery. 

Continence dysphoria does not just touch on the physical aspect of surgery to achieve total and permanent incontinence, but it also touches on the mental aspects driving the patient to ultimately commit to such surgery.

 

 

[Should surgery for permanent incontinence be allowed on those who claim to suffer from living in a continent body?]

I don't see much difference between gender dysphoria and continence dysphoria (having been down the road of GD/Transgender, with surgery and all that).  In order to qualify for surgery, I had to attend appointments over 1 year with a psychiatrist, have transitioned everything over (name change etc), living and dressing as female, be on hormones through an endocrinologist.  After a year, I had to go see a second psychiatrist, who had to agree with the first psych's opinion.  After that, I got the referral to the surgeon.  Yes, the MtF surgery is non-reversable, but I suppose it would be possible to revert to the birth gender through hormonal changes and dressing up etc, and some kind of artificial phallus.  

I've never looked back.  

I'd expect a patient seeking incon surgery to have gone down some similar path, with a year or more of psych consultation, second opinions sought, urology reviews done, patient living 24x7 managing diaper training/dependency under supervision.  If there is an medical option to perform temporary incon (stents, Botox, etc), then that should also be a gate along the path, as this provides everyone with an "out" if the incon is not tolerated/managed by the patient.  After this stage, then TPI should be an option opened up to the patient.  

Someone on here who has attempted going down a path to TPI, and sought surgeons is @Ferix, who would be able to comment on their experience (TLDR couldn't find a surgeon).

 

 

[Baby Food]

Do you have any issues with drinking that much formula?  It has lots of iron in it normally, so you may be setting yourself up for iron overload.  Any other symptoms of having so much formula per day?

I do love a drink of formula from time to time.  A nice hot bottle at night is lovely heading into lala land.

[Anyone else prefer medical diapers?]

I don't like medical diapers that claim to be "new and improved" yet have visibly weaker tabs which give way from their backing sheet after 20 minutes, and thinner padding meaning _more_ frequent changes (I'm looking at both Abena and Molicare here).  A tab that's stretchy, but held onto its backing sheet by 1cm is never going to last long... and yet here we are paying more $$$ and getting an inferior product to boot.

[Journey To Diaper Dependency]

I'm of the same thought as Oznl here.  Four Betterdry's a day seems a bit excessive.  Given that these things can hold about 2L of pee at max usage, if one was saturating these things before changing, that's up to about 8L of pee per day!  Huge amount of pee!  If one considers changing at about 1L or so, that's about 4L of pee per day?  Still excessive, perhaps?

Unless they're dirty (understandable to change more often), or sensitive skin?

[Is it a riskkkkkk to be incontinence for long time????]

The risk is this. 

If being incontinent to the point of peeing/pooping like a baby is your fantasy, and you somehow make it through many years of unpotty training, and something happens to shake that fantasy, you have a very difficult road ahead of you to repair that continence plus all the other social and medical stuff  

 

However, it’s not in the same league as being transgendered. Once that surgery happens, thats it.  No turning back. 

 

(FYI - I am 20+ yrs post-op MtF, and still no regrets)

 

BTW, when you have had to work 40 years, and you retire, it’s _actually_ time to party, with the toys and stuff you can now afford - long holidays, road trips not interrupted by work, hobbies, cruises, camping trips arou d the country… Looking forward to it all!

[Boosters]

I'm currently evaluating use of cloth boosters within my disposables (either BetterDry or Rearz InControl Elite Hybrid or Tykables 7000ml).  I started with a single folded 60cm x 60cm terry cloth flat nappy folded into a pad, and inserted.  Then later have experimented wrapping the terry nappy inside a 70cm x 70cm flannel flat nappy, again folded into a long pad.  This combo is glorious and thick and absorbent.  Luxurious even.  I've found that the booster will cause wicking to the front and back a bit more effectively than normal.  

At present, I'm trying bamboo inserts, which hold more than a standard cloth nappy.  Two bamboo inserts wrapped in the 70cm sq flannel nappy to form a long pad, with some overlap right where I need it most (a girl pees down), and this is one very thick combo...

[Is this stress and/or OAB?]

Related to this continued weak sphincter muscle response, I reckon I've definitely got  stress IC at least.  Bending over, having stool move around past my bladder, coughing, sneezing, all result in minor releases, with minimal sphincter response (though coughing does get the sphincter moving at least I've been feeling).  

In the middle of changes, when I've just taken my old nappy off, and cleaning myself up, I've had wee trickle down my legs and pool on the bathroom floor.  The sensation of wetting uncontrollably down one's legs is surreal, strange, a bit naughty. 

For the past three weeks, I've settled on using a combination of both terry cloth and flannel cloth flat baby nappies as a soaker pad inside a BetterDry or Rearz Incontrol or Tykables 7000ml disposable, and plastic pants.  It's a thick combo, lots of padding down there, and very soft. 

So after I've cleaned up the flats, a scrub down my legs and tush with a warm terry cloth flat is _heavenly_.  

But these leaks outside of nappies probably means one thing - I can't be trusted to remain clean if not wearing a nappy now....

[Is this stress and/or OAB?]

36 minutes ago, oznl said:

I'd possibly be looking at getting myself off the a Dr to rule out some kind of kidney action going on.  I know it's often confused with back pain and I suspect I've had some low level kidney grumbling here and there (manifesting as bouts of back pain that don't seem to relate to physical activity and self-cure after a few days).  I've wondered if we've developed incomplete voiding to the point whereby things can back up the line a bit.  I always thought sacral nerve damage was a product of physical trauma (not that I've had cause to investigate admittedly).

 

i've had very low back pain, in line with my hips.  Not further up my back around the level of the kidneys.  I've also got osteoporosis in my hips and knees (thanks mum), so it's not infeasible that the osteoporosis is contributing to the back pain and potential degeneration of the sacral nerve bundle there.  But we're speculating here, and only a trip to the doc would confirm the theory.

[Is this stress and/or OAB?]

I know this is in Incon-Desires, but I'm wondering whether what I've been experiencing the past few days, and last night in particular, stress and/or OAB.  

Last night and this morning has me rattled a bit.

I've mentioned in other threads recently that I've been experiencing bladder flutters and very weak sphincter response this past week or so.  The past few days however have been quite surreal, in that my bladder has been voiding very frequently (like about every 5 minutes or more) and in very small amounts.  There's been very little to no response from the sphincter (I had been normally having a sphincter contraction at the point of void, eliciting a "no, gotta stop this contraction, so relax and let the wet happen").  

When my bowel moves a stool along past the bladder, I'll get a bladder voiding. Yesterday, I was patting my stomach, which would elicit bladder voiding.  Moving around bed would eventually elicit bladder voiding a few seconds later.  

Then came last night.  My bladder didn't stop, all night, and I've had a mild tummy ache to go along with it.  Little releases, which I could start to push to turn into larger releases really really easily, or just movement when the release happened turned into larger releases.  This morning, it started voiding and seemingly didn't stop for 5 mintues or so (a very slow but fairly constant flood).  I got no sleep, due to the voids and sensations.  Where does all this pee come from?

The sensations down there have been very strange.  I've very little control at the moment of my sphincter.  So a bit of a flutter, a bit of queasiness, and a bladder void happens. If this behaviour is beyond the "line of no control" then I'm in.  If anything, it's a peak over the crest of the hill, and I have a new appreciation for bladder incontinence sufferers.

But the speed of this happening, the queasiness, the lack of sleep, all has me concerned enough that I'm considering heading off to my GP.  The above has followed on from weeks of a really bad lower back ache, with random pains in my legs, along with arthritis in my hips and knees.  Some online research this morning has me thinking sacral nerve damage - the symptoms fit my experience, but this would need to be confirmed.

I'm tired, very thickly nappy-protected (am wearing a Tykables Camelot with 70x70 folded cloth nappy pad insert, with a Rearz prefold covering the Tykables nappy, inside plastic pants - I added the Rearz pre-fold outer at 3am this morning), and am curious as to what the day today brings.  

 

[Progression of FI?]

Oh yes, I definitely get those tummy flip-flops. A few seconds later, the push is inevitable. 

 

Trying to hold/delay the urges until nappy change time was causing pain itself back then during COVID lockdown, which contributed to my decision to use knickers again. But this led to wet knickers and skid marks and increasing accidents. 

 

Thus now, I wholly trust my nappies for everything.  No pain, but lots of resulting mess. 

[Getting more comfortable with buying diapers in public]

I had a love/hate relationship with going to a specialist chemist to get a bag or two of disposable nappies. Embarassed, but excited at the same time. 

 

The first few times I ordered cases of nappies from a specialist supply company, I was quite embarrassed at the attention, but  their staff were really good, suggesting other products to help. So when I said my continence nurse was suggesting self-cathing, they gave me some brochures to think about what to get and how to self-cath.  But it didn’t eventuate. 

 

I haven’t ordered from them in a long time as my goto’s at the time (Abena and Molicare) both updated their products which destroyed them (even smaller narrower weaker tabs and thinner nappies overall). 

 

Now I just dont care what people think  Today I went into a baby store and bought cloth nappies (being used as inserts/boosters), a diaper pail and bin, and some other stuff.  

 

You do get over the shame and embarrassment.

 

[Is messing a sexual thrill or a comfort thing - or a mixture of both?]

As a girl, I feel that a #2 that makes it way up and over my pubic mound is an extremely juvenile thing to do, and I get very little when it happens.  Messy cleanup, though when it gets into the front of my nappy.

[Is un-potty training yourself worth it?]

Are you wishing to go 24/7?  

At the start, it may sound quite easy to do, and it is.

But then there's everything else to consider - friends and family reactions, disclosing nappy use to doctors and hospitals, employment implications, financial cost of nappies and associated products, the need to change at inconvenient moments, the resulting rubbish and smells, and finally the changes your body will go through as you advance down the road to true 24/7.  The road is very long (many many years).

You may be able to train your body to go wet and/or mess in your nappies, but it's a slippery slope from there to 24/7 with a difficult potty-training to get back control.  

Think about what you want.  There's lots of support on here for if you start down the path to 24/7.  

[What diaper are you wearing now?]

Just woke up to a wet night nappy.  I've found that using a baby 60cm x 60cm terry cloth nappy as an insert to either a BetterDry or Tykables Camelot or Rearz InControl elite Hybrid is a luxurious combination, which assists to evenly distribute the wetness all around the combo nappy.  And it's thick as, so can last well in excess of 12 hours.  

Combined with a stretch pant to keep the nappy in position, with a plastic pant outer, and finally a onesie, and it aint going anywhere, is tight against the body, moulds to the body over time, and feels utterly fantastic, and I'm in heaven.  No leaks, no smell... all good

[Has anyone else’s sphincter muscle defaulted back to relaxed? Can you still close it? For how long?]

I think mine is quite relaxed. This last week or so, my bladder feels like its quivering, and every 10 to 20 mins is slowly dribbles small amounts of urine. It’s rarely flooding, maybe a bit each morning (but then its been dribbling all night too). 

 

I try to close my muscle, but this action is slow, and when I realise its slow and end the effort, its back to relaxed again. 

 

Very weird sensations down there at present - not unpleasant but also sometimes not pleasant. 

 

Ive noticed that when my bowels are moving matter past my bladder, I’ll get a release of pee. So my bladder is being quite sensitive foe the moment. I can’t stop a bowel push either. 

 

Remember that sine wave thing I’ve been talking about all thia time?  My trajectory is on the steep slope downwards…

[Strange days indeed - a 24 x 7 experiment]

It was suggested to me by someone ex-Mil that I should learn how to cope with heat by layering-up, and slowly de-layer as the day progressed. This was in response to a meltdown due to heat when I was up your way competing in a national championships (I think I told you where I was a few years back?).  

The theory is that your body gets used to the heat after a while, and as you de-layer, your  body cools down. 

Also drink lots of water. 

So, at first a onesie may be quite hot, you will adjust to it over time. 

Something to consider. 

[Progression of FI?]

As some of you know, I've been having fecal accident issues all my life.  When I was young, my mum thought it was laziness, I went to doctors and psychologists, was threatened with being admitted to a special ward at a hospital for observation/tests/etc (not a psych ward), threatened with being put back into nappies (a dr actually suggested this to mum) and going to school in nappies (a big deal back then as these nappies were cloth pinned ones just pre-disposable era).  Eventually my parents sorta gave up, as I went through high school and quietly dealt with the issue, and repercussions of really bad #2 accidents at school.

My FI issues continued into Uni, but had mostly petered out by then, though I was still getting skid marks and the occasional minor accident.  

Thinking back to those days, I often had no warning at all - I'd be going about my day (or asleep), and an urge would suddenly hit, that's so powerful it'd pin me to the spot with pain and urge pushes, and out it all came.  As I grew up, I'd learnt to hold on for long enough that the pain and urges would eventually subside, and I could move.  By late high school and uni, I had time to go to the toilet, or ignore the event, and hope that the next bout of urges and pain and being unable to move would come later.

Yes, I think that I have undiagnosed ASD.

Fast forward, and in recent years I've been having bladder IC issues (stress and urge IC), have been to urologists and had tests et al, and elected to go back into nappies.  As COVID hit, I'd passed 3 years 24x7.

Destructive thoughts, moods, and general depression had me reverting to a 1-change per day habit, which was largely managable through using BetterDry and Rearz InControl Elite nappies with boosters, but I was noticing that my thighs were being absolutely wrecked by being in a nappy constantly, and all it took was a "it'd be better if I just wore knickers", and I stopped wearing. One contributing factor was the painful bowel urges I'd get, and I'd inevitably attempt to delay the inevitable until just before or just on my daily change.  This only led to more pain, and periods of quite bad constipation, with very hard stools.

At the start of our COVID lockdown, we cleaned the garage, and I found the knickers I'd stashed in a bag, which managed to get moved with everything else when I relocated.  

So for the period of COVID lockdowns I'd oscillate between knickers and nappies.  In the last 6 months or so though, I have clearly noticed that my knickers were constantly wet and smelly, and they had skid marks and evidence of accidents.  Whenever I wiped my bottom, it'd come away with a bit of #2, every time.

Over Christmas, I went on a road trip holiday, and had one major #2 blowout with diarrhoea, and a number of other very bad urges where I just knew that if I'd stop and get out of the truck, I'd fill my pants.  

On my return home, with the evidence clear that I really do need to be back in nappies, that's what I did, so I'm back in nappies once more, and with a different mindset to that during COVID.  I vowed that I would not hold back my #2's but let it happen.

Over the past week, I've noticed a bit of a change.  I'm not getting any warnings again, but get an uncomfortable but insistent push.  If I'm sitting down, that push would stop, but as soon as I stand up, out it all comes.  If I'm standing, it just happens.  I have to stop and let it go - there's no way to stop it.  My mind is like "wow, that happened", and I'd doubt I'd have controlled the urge if I had been wearing knickers.  

Alarming, but this change reminds me of when I was little.  

Am I worried?  No, strangely.  

Is this what it's like when one is FI?

[Question 24/7]

Good questions.  

What caused me to stop wearing was a destructive habit I'd gotten into when we were all locked down during initial COVID infections.  I went from a sensible twice-a-day change schedule, to once a day, which got harder and harder to do, as I started to get really bad skin irritations/rashes, really lazy with my health, and quite despondent to the world.  Along popped a thought that maybe underpants were easier, and I jumped at it.  It didn't help that I'd discovered where I'd stashed my undies in a bag when I moved house, as we cleaned the garage whilst in lockdown.

Thus began a period of time where I went cold turkey, only to discover that I couldn't keep my undies dry, and I had increasing frequency of bowel accidents.  I'd swear that I'd cleaned up properly after a toilet, but the evidence was right there in my pants each time.  

So I'd go back to wearing 24/7 for a bit, get back into that destructive mindset, and try once more to use undies.  Have been doing that for a year or so now.

But, this past Christmas, I did a rather long road trip, which brought a few things to the fore for me.  I just cannot keep my pants dry, no matter how many times I went to the toilet, or how fastidious I'd clean, and I am very much losing control of #2 (I've been predicting this for a long time, as I've had #2 leakage/accident issues all my life).  Heck, I'd get a shower, be nice and clean and dry, go to the toilet a few hours later, and I'd be both wet and have skiddies...

So, once again, I'm back in nappies 24/7.  What I feel is different this time around is that I'm more reconciled to the fact I need to be in nappies, because of the above.  My work commitment is changing to _almost_ full-time working from home, so I have the opportunity to just get on with it.  I feel much better in my mind this time.

[Why do some people insist it’s impossible to make yourself incontinent?]

Stay in a nappy long enough, and #2 often enough in nappies, and one will find their control over #2 waning to the point where they will forever have skid marks and/or fecal accidents if they ever tried to spend a day in undies.

[Question 24/7]

What I was getting at with my theory is that one needs lots of patience, and lots of time.  Unpotty training does not happen overnight, but may take multiple years.   Things will seem to move quickly at first, as you're super-sensitive to _any_ change.  Later, things seem to stall, and progress seems to just stop.  But remember the sine wave?  You may be at the "peak" of the wave.  Keep going.