sunwutian

Hypnosis does not work on, dare I say, the majority of people. And although the quality of the hypnotist is important, one's overall susceptibility to it is a life-time constant. Susceptibility can only be temporarily slightly increased by certain drugs (eg nitrous oxide), most of which are illegal. If one has tried a good hypnotist without effect, hypnosis is a lost cause. And even when it does work, the effects are not real. It's basically the degree to which you delude yourself into believing it is real. Some people are great at that, many are not. Best bet would be if the medical profession treated it like SRS: require psychotherapy and commitment first. For that to happen, we need to understand why doctors treat gender dysphoria differently than other image integrity disorders and work off of those successes. Very unlikely we'd see such an enlightened view in our lifetime, even most AB/DLs here can't accept that some people actually *really* want this. And even then, it'd still surely be classed as a mental illness in the DSM. I've worn near 24/7 for years and still have near-retention issues, often don't feel the need to go until it's suddenly uncomfortable, and even then it takes several minutes to go naturally without forcing things. Impossible to even force in certain positions, especially lying down. I wake up almost every other night needing to go and have to get out of bed as a result. And going so much at once greatly increases the risk of leaks, and requires more expensive diapers. This thing would be a positive improvement for me, but they'd never allow it.

I definitely get that. At the very best, I've woken up just as I started to go. Never been able to stay asleep. Also definitely a problem. It's not possible to make a conscious effort the entire time while awake to go as needed. You will eventually start thinking of something else, and there goes the bladder clenching. Very difficult while in a moving vehicle (car or plane), even more so than while walking. Indeed. Even now I have great difficulty while lying down in bed. Doesn't help that half the time it really does end up leaking that way. My guess is the physical difficulty and subconscious fear are one and the same, it's just that the latter is when you're a bit more skilled at it. I think totally getting over it requires you to prevent leaks entirely, but that's really really tough with disposables, and I absolutely cannot sleep except on my side.

Fascinating, I'm sure I've read of more than one person using a catheter for several months and finding themselves incontinent afterward. What you say makes sense though. If it weren't true, then an anal plug would work on the same principle to cause fecal incontinence. So a catheter doesn't work because the muscle stays clenched. 24/7 wearing doesn't work because the muscle auto-clenches during sleep, and that's enough to keep muscle tone. Hypnosis doesn't work for most because it's nonsense, and susceptibility level is a lifetime constant. Surgical measures are impossible because only transgenders are allowed BIID treatment. So it's not possible for almost everyone trying. Really defeats the purpose of arguing whether one "really wants incontinence" or not, doesn't it? Side question: I've read that there were permanent stents that cannot be removed due to tissue being grown around and on them. But if any foreign object accumulates plaque over time, that would necessitate a stent being removed at least monthly, no?

I did this long ago with a monthly order of two cases. They always came while I was at work and I always had to go to the office to get them. Nobody ever said anything, even the one time when HDIS decided that shipping in a box with a gigantic ATTENDS logo on the side was a smart idea. I'm sure they assumed it was just the box and not what was inside. I am thankful for companies today that understand discretion

Strongly agreed. If you are (un,sub)consciously holding at night, then your muscles stay trained. The downside is that you are, well, unconscious. Unless you are susceptible to hypnosis or can get a prescription for catheters, I fail to see any way one can possibly revert to bed wetting. Even drinking a lot before bed, if you're already trained, you just wake up or worse, won't fall asleep at all. As for the whole goal, the only way to achieve incontinence only while diapered is psychologically. In other words, you'll have to convince yourself of a reality that is not true, because your actual goal is not physically possible. So hopefully you are very, very susceptible to suggestion. Best wishes on your goal.

Everyone wants their definitions to be the one true definition of labels. And over time, they get diluted to the point of being meaningless when nobody can agree upon them. Just using the term invokes arguments about what the term means. Eventually there ceases to be a single 'right' definition, since no one can agree on it. Look at atheism. There are people that will argue that everyone is atheist since everyone doesn't believe in at least one god, since believing in some are contradictory to others. On the other end, there are those who say you can't be atheist unless you unequivocally state that you are certain that no gods exist. Most of you are probably thinking right now what an idiot I must be as you know exactly what that word means, right? Yet ask around, and you'll find even the experts disagree with each other. It doesn't even matter if there IS a perfect definition, because not even half of people will agree to that definition. That's my point. It's ridiculous. Some want to make words ridiculously exclusive, some want to make them inclusive. Here we have a perfect term, "diaper lover", it can't be any more clear. Almost everyone in this community has a very clear understanding of what the term means, so let's leave the definition be. No one has to perfectly agree with the definition, but just respect its accepted public meaning and don't try and muddle it by blurring the lines. We need labels, or every single post would be a ranting mess like this one in absence of nice succinct terms.

d_drew, you sound like you are strictly DL, so it likely wouldn't be appropriate for you to become incontinent. My experience is that the more you wear, the less the DL side has any effect. 24/7 nearly eliminates it, which leaves the AB side. Unlike the DL side, that part doesn't go away with orgasm. That is certainly a good readiness test, though. As is actually leaking at work at least once, because that will happen no matter what you do eventually. If either of those make you not want to wear, you could be setting yourself up for a good bit of pain. Assuming you are a person who actually can untrain yourself; it's then a question of balance: weigh the severity of how much and how long you do want to be incontinent versus the length of time and severity that you don't, to decide which one would make you happier.

At least I actually read your responses instead of saying the same thing again and again. Again with the fecal incontinence. You seem to be fixated on it. Not everyone here is asking for fecal incontinence. And even if they were, life is what you make of it. Fecal incontinence isn't that big of a deal. And good lord, are you honestly telling me to think long and hard about what being incontinent would be like? Seriously? After wearing 24/7 for six years, you think the problem is I just haven't thought about it enough? Again, you are projecting. Stop assuming you have thought more about this than everyone else, and that you know what is best for everyone. I give up. Thank you Darkfinn, totally agree. Unfortunately she probably won't read your post either. It is fascinating to me the way transgenderism (a form of BIID) is so widely accepted and supported, yet we can't even get a modicum of respect on an AB/DL support forum. It may very well be a mental disorder (just like you could call being AB/DL, or anything out of the ordinary that you don't like), but at least for TGs, psychologists understand that it is not curable with simple "you should think about it more" statements; and that the overall mental harm is far greater than the physical harm of what people are asking for with BIID. Maybe some day people desiring incontinence will be treated with a bit more respect.

So I should not want to be incontinent because someone might find that offensive? No matter what it is, anything you ever do in life will offend at least one person. If an incontinent person is coming to an AB/DL forum and is offended by the fact that someone on it wants to be incontinent, that's their problem. Life isn't perfect, we all have our share of problems. You can either make the best of them, or you can be miserable and bitter, and hate everyone else who feels differently about it. I do feel sorry for them, don't get me wrong. I find great irony that an "intelligent designer" would force some people to have incontinence who never wanted it, and never allow some who do the chance to have it. I'd love to trade places with someone, make both of our lives better, but it doesn't work that way. The world would be such a better place if people would worry about themselves, and leave other people to do what makes them happy, so long as it isn't hurting anyone else. You seem to be lumping two totally different things into the same category. Not everyone wants both urinary and fecal incontinence, some want one or the other. I prefer the former only, but would not be any less happy in life with both. The smell of fecal incontinence is definitely an issue that is not courteous to other people, but it can be mostly mitigated with Chlorophyll, a proper diet and rapid changes. You talk about continence as having some special control, but we see it differently. Continence is the lack of control to void immediately. No matter how hard you try, your body subconsciously holds back until you make a conscious effort to let go, which you can only do when you get the right signal. Incontinence to me is an improvement that is more in-line with how I want my body to work. Absolute control would be the ability to turn incontinence on and off, which would be even better, but nobody gets to do that. Dougie, one can only simulate incontinence so much via 24/7, but yes I certainly have gone between changes and between the shower. If you hold back at any time period, then you aren't truly trying for 24/7 in my book. My trick is a bit adult themed and male specific, but essentially if you allow the shower water to hit the 'tip' of it so to speak, after a few seconds it makes you go even if you don't feel you need to. Then you can usually make it to change again. That may not work if you're actually incontinent though. I will also confess that after about the two year mark, I realized the futility for myself and have held back a few times. Leaking at work and between changes does suck, but it is infrequent. I never said it would be wonderful 100% of the time to be incontinent, just that I would be happier overall with it. 99% of my life is spent in a diaper that has capacity available.

I thought that the whole point of this sub-forum was to avoid the incessant nagging of the "you don't really want to be incontinent" crowd, geez. People, it's a big world. You aren't the center of it. You may not want to be incontinent, you may have wanted to be at some point too, you may have had an amazing epiphany about it. It doesn't matter, because other people are different than you. You have no idea why other people want to be incontinent. It could be a form of body integrity identity disorder. That can be very serious. Take transgenderism, people wanting to remove their male anatomy. And guess what? With enough counseling, doctors will actually do it. That is because for some, BIID is so intense that overall it really is better to just do it than to not. And yes, just like the TG crowd, some going incontinent rushed in and end up regretting it. But that's not everyone. Try not to project so much. Like this: I've worn almost six years at 24/7, even tried the hypnosis, and lost no control at all. I don't even remember, but I probably go a bit more often, nothing more. What does this tell me? That I personally can't become incontinent voluntarily, not that it's impossible for anyone to become voluntarily incontinent. So like Darkfinn, I just wear 24/7, and that's that. There hasn't been a day I haven't wanted to be incontinent, even the two times I've leaked at work. But there's nothing I can do about it, because this isn't mainstream enough for any doctor to care.