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A Discussion Of Intolerance


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Hi. To all who don't know me, I go by blue on these boards. I'm not actually on the boards much, I'm mostly in chat, and actually I think this may be my first ever post on the boards.

Anyway, I'm not here to introduce myself, I'm here to start a discussion on intolerance shown on the boards and in the chat by certain members to members of the LGBT community. Thank heavens this doesn't crop up very often, and for the most part our members seem to be very accepting and open minded (and I love you all for it.) Regarding the few that aren't, I would just like to say a few things.

Intolerance in a community like this is a disease. Thank heavens not many here are infected with it, but as word spreads that we are accepting of people who will bash us, not because of something we say, or do but because of who we are, then hatred and intolerance will spread, and this happy place will slowly turn into a waste-filled dump where no one enjoys coming to.

Also, I feel that we all have the right to stand up for ourselves, and for others who are on the receiving end of such abuse. If we won't stand up for ourselves, then what? If we don't even have the courage to say "Hey- what you said is offensive and not welcome here" then who is going to do it for us? Ladies and gentleman, your best defender is you.

I don't really have anything else to say. I'm looking for input from all of you, really.

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Coming from a 'Christian' background, and while I put that in quotes, I do believe in God, and do believe I have a good relationship with Him, I know what the Bible teaches about homosexuality. However, the Bible says that 'God is love, and in Him is no darkness.' Furthermore, the Bible commends God's love to ALL men (and women). Therefore, God must love homosexuals. He may not like what they represent, but He loves them. Furthermore, since God's love is commended to everyone, it must include those people, without exception.

On the other hand, I am transgendered, or at least consider myself as such. In my own mind, I struggle with that, as well as my AB side, in relation to what I believe that God expects from me as His child. I know that God loves me and there is nothing I can do to change that, thankfully.

I have friends who are 'gay' and 'lesbian' and while I do not agree with that choice (there are some that will argue that it isn't a choice, but I choose to believe it is, albeit with certain circumstances I will not go into in this conversation) they are still my friends and I still stand beside them.

"Gay-bashing" in whatever form is wrong, in my opinion. Every man and woman has the right to lead the life that they choose, provided that it does not hurt others, or that their views are forced upon others, when people say they don't want to hear about it.

However, certain groups now who are pushing to have homosexuality taught in our schools as a 'natural thing' will never get my support, because, in my mind, I know differently. I do not believe that I am wrong, but there are those who think that I have a closed mind. Actually, I don't, but I've studied enough to know that I am right with my choice, and it's the choice I choose to stand by. Someone can try to show me that the sky is actually green, but I know enough that it is blue. No one is going to change my mind on that, either.

Having said all of that, I have to say that while I do not support a homosexual agenda, I try to balance my life so that I am not offensive to those who so choose to go that route. I believe that this is the best a person can ask for.

If you don't agree, I understand, and we will then have to agree to disagree.

Respects,

Gary

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Well, I'm of the group that believes homosexuality and transgenderism aren't choices but personality traits that are with those people from birth. I'm also an atheist, so it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree, Gary. :)

You made some very good points though, especially this one:

"Gay-bashing" in whatever form is wrong, in my opinion. Every man and woman has the right to lead the life that they choose, provided that it does not hurt others, or that their views are forced upon others, when people say they don't want to hear about it.

I completely agree.

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im really glad that someone has finally brang up this very important topic, so thank you for doing so bluegirl. i have been here a little more then a year mingling with everyone in this community and for the most part everyone is really nice, however recently i have had to put a few people on ignore in this board not because they where gay bashing or anything like that, but because they where being hypocritical and insensitive to me and others. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and everyone thinks differently, thats what makes this a beautiful world, everyone is different, but when you keep throwing your point in peoples faces and disrespecting them you have gone way to far. for example, if someone posted a topic about men who like to wear panties for instance, and you post something like, "panties where not made to be worn by men and don't look good on any man" thats fine thats your opinion, but don't keep throwing it back and expanding on something that will obviously turn into something negative. if you cant say something nice, then only say it once and move on. we are all family here, thats why i think most of us get along so well, but when you start making people mad at you by throwing your opinion in someones face, especially if its also hypocritical, maybe you just don't belong on this board. there are tons of other boards about tons of different topics, find one that works for you.

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a few thoughts...

i do not believe our sexual orientation is a choice .... i believe we are all sexual beings ... many things impact our sexual preferences however i don't believe i "chose" my orientation.........there is a basic sexual magnitism that i did not choose.........on top of the basic magnitism...i have curiousities that i may or may not act upon.....they are the result of how i've been impacted by life experiences.....they are my choices to make but will in no way change that basic need and desire i have to be with a male......

yes i believe in god.........i believe god will forgive my sins if i ask this from him......however i knowingly continue to sin.....and this is probably the worst sin of all......to consciously choose to continue to live a sinful life without striving to change....

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I don't mean to seem rude, since everyone here has been so civil in discussing it, but I really think this thread should stay on topic rather than being a discussion about religion and sexuality. I think I know some of the intolerance the OP was referring to, and if I do, it's safe to say any of you know precisely where I stand on it. I really think something needs to be done, and it's often up to those affected by it to take action at first.

I'm not LGBT myself, although I can sympathize greatly with them (long, personal story I'd rather not go into here, so please just take me at my word), and I have a major problem with the fact that in this community, a place that should be a safe haven for all of us, people are espousing intolerant, hateful opinions and acting as though not only is that acceptable here, but that those who disagree are the ones with the problem. If this community can't be a safe place for all of us, then where can we go to be safe? All of us, regardless of sex, gender, or preference need to unite to tell these people their attitudes are not welcome here.

P.S. Okay, fine, since everyone is being so incredibly polite about it, I'll weigh in on the off-topic part. I'm Christian, I believe in God. As far as sexual orientation goes, I feel it's God's place to judge, not mine. Christian means living your life as Christ would, and Jesus was of the attitude that you accept everyone and not judge them; showing love to your fellow man is a core part of the Christian faith. What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't love gays and lesbians even if their lifestyle is sinful? A terrible one. Besides, even if it is a sin, so is alcoholism and lying...you don't see us shunning people who lie like they do gay people, and that's hypocritical.

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i guess a lot more people on here are more like this guy then i thought, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYFtYlFPS5o and although its kinda sad, but its no ones place to judge you except your god, if you have one.

BTW: after he lost the gay vote, he issued a press release taking back what he said.

I don't see why it should matter even if it IS a choice. Let's pretend that homosexuality is a choice for a second: why should that have anything to do with their civil rights? That's a serious question. I don't understand why there's such a huge fight over it being a choice or being born that way, because there's so many other lifestyle choices people make that aren't discriminated against, why should anyone choose homosexuality to discriminate over? Does anyone have a valid, non-religious reason to discriminate against them? If not, I say they should be given equal rights regardless of whether it's genetic, a choice, both or neither.

I just don't understand why everyone's so caught up in "It's a choice," "No it's not,". Shouldn't gays be trying to say "We're people regardless of whether or not it's a choice, and we deserve the same rights as other people"? Just seems like the whole choice issue is a waste of time.

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I don't see why it should matter even if it IS a choice. Let's pretend that homosexuality is a choice for a second: why should that have anything to do with their civil rights? That's a serious question. I don't understand why there's such a huge fight over it being a choice or being born that way, because there's so many other lifestyle choices people make that aren't discriminated against, why should anyone choose homosexuality to discriminate over? Does anyone have a valid, non-religious reason to discriminate against them? If not, I say they should be given equal rights regardless of whether it's genetic, a choice, both or neither.

I just don't understand why everyone's so caught up in "It's a choice," "No it's not,". Shouldn't gays be trying to say "We're people regardless of whether or not it's a choice, and we deserve the same rights as other people"? Just seems like the whole choice issue is a waste of time.

Here here Toddler Sissy. I would go even further than saying it's a waste of time and would argue that it's used by some as a distraction from the main issue of Human Rights. It's a Red Herring.

There seems to be a patronising element from outside the gay community when blaming 'The Gay Gene' - i.e. S/he can't help it. Conversely, the same people shift the blame to the gay person her/himself where being gay is seen as a lifestyle choice.

This need to apportion blame is at the root of this discrimination, imo.

Dolly

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after reading Toddler Sissy's and Dolly's response...i suddenly have the urge to delete my post...i wish i'd muddled through the "muck" so well and came out on such higher ground....

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after reading Toddler Sissy's and Dolly's response...i suddenly have the urge to delete my post...i wish i'd muddled through the "muck" so well and came out on such higher ground....

Aww, now don't say that Jennie...I've always enjoyed reading your posts, and I feel what you said had some meaning here..

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Aww, now don't say that Jennie...I've always enjoyed reading your posts, and I feel what you said had some meaning here..

Ever have that feeling of Déja-vu?.........

Here here Toddler Sissy! I'm glad you told jenniebear off or I'd have had to! :P

Baby G, I was saddened to hear of your friend's unjust and totally unacceptable experience with that customer at work. Roll-on the age of enlightenment.

D :huh: lly

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a few thoughts...

i do not believe our sexual orientation is a choice .... i believe we are all sexual beings ... many things impact our sexual preferences however i don't believe i "chose" my orientation.........there is a basic sexual magnitism that i did not choose.........on top of the basic magnitism...i have curiousities that i may or may not act upon.....they are the result of how i've been impacted by life experiences.....they are my choices to make but will in no way change that basic need and desire i have to be with a male......

yes i believe in god.........i believe god will forgive my sins if i ask this from him......however i knowingly continue to sin.....and this is probably the worst sin of all......to consciously choose to continue to live a sinful life without striving to change....

What are you going to do now, Jenniebear? Maybe you're just evolving faster than the rest of us.

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I'm curious as a whole though why everyone insists that being GLBT is leading a sinful life? I am a Christian, I struggled with the idea that I was going to hell after I came to terms with who I am after a failed marriage and getting back to the feelings I had been having for over 10+ years. It wasn't until I did a lot of study and research that I came to terms with myself and who I was and got back in touch with my spirituality and found that I was going to be ok.

The idea of homosexuality being a sin is something that human beings interjected into the biblical scripture. The original texts didn't reference this in any way, shape or form. Biblical scholars have gone back and looked this over greatly. So many people are led to believe we are living in sin because of the way GOD MADE US! We are all created in God's image, is that not what he said? If this is the case, then why would he make us this way, then condemn us to hell?

Sure, everyone recites the same handful of scriptures ... before firing off those scriptures, they should look at the context not just what they say. If someone chooses a lifestyle of lust, that is sinful. When it's a lifestyle of love, we can't help who we love. If we participate in acts of love with another, that is not out of lust, that is not a sinful relationship.

People also recite the old-testament laws ... Let me ask you this ... how can you choose to enforce one law, but not enforce them all as a whole? These old testament laws were meant to be followed as a whole, not picked and chosen. Look into some of the others ... one that comes to mind is that "if it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately." Why do people turn their heads from this one if they feel they must enforce a different one? Again, it comes down to being taken out of context!

Here are a couple links to very informative and thorough documents I used to help me get a better insight into this when I was struggling. Sure, most people will damn and condemn this information as blasphemy. Why? If you ask me, it's because they are afraid, and they don't want to open their mind to new and unconstrued teachings.

http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf

http://truthsetsfree.net/study.pdf

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OK ... I realized I went and followed the off-topic discussion as well.

Back on topic in relation to the OP, I agree. We definitely need to speak up to defend ourselves when intolerance is evident. If we don't have the guts to do this, people will continue to walk on us.

To put it into perspective, when you were a kid in school and people start bullying you around and they see they can get away with it, they will continue to do this because they know you won't do anything about it. Most bullys are just that and if someone were to have the guts to stand up to them, they'd back down. (or at least that's the way it was many years ago when I was in school, hell, they probably just pull out a gun now).

Anyway, yes, I think we need to have the courage to stand up for our own group when it comes into negative view in a situation. I'm learning to actually have the guts to do this as I become more comfortable with my own sexuality (I was kindly shoved back into the closet almost 12 years ago and the door slammed in my face and more or less told I was just going through an experimental phase. I was 19/20, I think I knew what I wanted. In the effort to make my family happy, I lied to myself and lived a "straight" life as long as I could before it caused turmoil in my relationship).

Hopefully the more people that can show the courage needed, the more will see that it's OK to defend ourselves as a group.

I hope this came off right. I have a habit of reading too much into a post sometimes and then rambling on. lol

God Bless!

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I wanted to add my 2 cents to your last post about the Old Testament. I believe that your are right but most of those laws are written by man. There is only one set of laws that was set by g-d and those are the ten commandments and I do not believe their that is any sin on how we are to be have. (I can only remember a few right off the top of my head) but what I am saying is that to live your life to the best you can then I do not see what your sexual preference matters to anyone but you.

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  • 3 weeks later...

(snip)

People also recite the old-testament laws ... Let me ask you this ... how can you choose to enforce one law, but not enforce them all as a whole? These old testament laws were meant to be followed as a whole, not picked and chosen. Look into some of the others ... one that comes to mind is that "if it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately." Why do people turn their heads from this one if they feel they must enforce a different one? Again, it comes down to being taken out of context!

(snip)

http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf

http://truthsetsfree.net/study.pdf

The best (and funniest) evidence for our current views on sexuality being determined by our local culture and not by scripture come from the famous

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp

Sexual orientation per se is not a choice under conscious control. Who would consciously choose all the social isolation and frank intolerance that comes with being "gay", "transsexual" or anything similar?

Certain behaviors which seem to be consequences of sexual orientation, such as having very large numbers of partners, are definite public health problems.....AIDS and other diseases spread amongst those having sex with multiple partners, by and large...but the conservatives have never been good about making such fine distinctions.....their policy is to make demons, the better to keep the masses distracted...

And senator Craig's (a huge public proponent of "Family Values" and anti-gay) recent arrest for soliciting gay sex seems an excellent argument for being honest about the needs so the behaviors don't end up being public health hazards...we would all be better off if he had a single, acknowledged partner....

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I will avoid the religious part of this thread. People are funny. They want tolerance for their differences, but tend to not be tolerant of others at the same time. Human nature is strange indeed.

Froggy

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  • 1 month later...

It really doesn't bother me all that much unless it's taking place on a judicial level. All you can do is make a good impression one person at a time and hope for the best. I think we're getting to a point culturally in most developed nations that it's really not such a big deal anymore. Heck, I don't even see it as divisive as race, especially considering that sexuality isn't(usually) apparent just from looking at someone.

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