An Idea on Expedited Untraining Towards Diaper Dependancy

[DAQ]

Arizona recently enacted a shelter in place order. I, like some others have decided to use the current situation to jump start my journey. I have taken the last 2 weeks to follow the path laid out by the 12 month diaper program. While I have had limited success on staying relaxed more and wetting more freely. The 12 month timeline always felt strange to me.

 

It always struck me as strange in regards to untraining. Why is it that a child can be rudimentary potty trained over the course of a few days of focused, dedicated training. Why is it then that it takes an adult who is much more intelligent 12+ months to untrain, albeit with less neuroplasticity. Children that are being taught to use the potty are fundamentally continent in that their urinary and bowels are developed. It is only the skills that are being trained. Should it not then be possible to reverse this process in an equally direct focused manner to become fundamentally incontinent while still having the developed bladder and bowel control?

 

Why is that outside of the untraining community we assume it takes around two weeks to form a new habit but when it comes to toileting “habits” we assume it take months or even years to untrain. It is not my goal to use semantics to try and analyze human psychology, but could a habit as straightforward as “Pee in diaper always” be made a habit very quickly? Now I don't think one can become incontinent in the sense of being unable to hold it. But I think a habit could be formed in as little as two weeks to jump start a process towards true incontinence. In the same way that a toddler is already continent while they being potty trained. I think it is possible to unpotty train in the same way. This will not be incontinence per se but it may make one much more diaper dependant if my theory is true. Incontinence in my opinion is what follows after the habit of using a diaper has been reinforced after many months. After the bladder has had an opportunity to shrink and the sphincters to atrophy through disuse.

 

Here is my experiment for the next two weeks. I got the idea from watching Mindlessly Diapered on Youtube. So she made it a habit to have a “potty position”. Every time she entered this position she would force herself to go regardless if she felt like she needed to or not. My plan is to set a timer for every 15-30 minutes (haven't decided exact frequency yet), stand up and force myself to wet. I think this will have the effect of training the body to:

1. wet more frequently when I am not thinking about it.

2. get the urge to wet more frequently all the time.

3. set increased intervals to reverse kegal (Currently have an alarm every hour).

4. Set the habit for wetting multiple times per hour.

5. May create pavilion response to vibration/alarms (I am currently using a Fitbit with vibration alarm)

6. This last one is purely hypothetical. But I am hoping that increasing my urinary frequency so much during the day that at night it will become subconscious and automatic.

Here is why I think this will work to jump start untraining. Currently, I have been following the 12 month diaper program. I have tried to stay relaxed and let me body take over when/how I release. I get about maybe 8-10 wetting events per day. They occur when my bladder fills, I get an urge to wet, and it becomes strong enough to overcome any inhibitions and sphincter tightness in the sitting position. The biggest weakness I currently see is that in the morning my bladder is mostly inactive. My diaper stays dry basically the entire time after my morning shower from 8:30am-10 or 11 with no activity. With this new method I will be wetting in the easiest position for me – standing, and I will be wetting between 2 and 4 times per hour. Or a minimum of 32 times per day. After two weeks of this I think that urinary frequency will greatly increase. It may even become habit to wet every time I stand. Making a form of latchkey incontinence. In addition this will dramatically increase the practice that I have for wetting.

 

This will have added benefits as I have a large bladder. I did an impromptu measure several weeks ago and found that it was nearly 750ml. This is enough to flood even the best medical diapers and even overwhelm ab/dl diapers if they are not boosted in only a couple floodings. Wetting these smaller amounts will increase diaper capacity and by wetting every 15-30 minutes I will ensure that my diapers are wet very quickly after changing. This schedule will also more accurately emulate true total trickly incontinence where the body is constantly dribbling. This should usability of each diaper.

 

I have additional ideas but that is all I can think of currently and wanted to post to get the communities thoughts. More to follow.

[Bbuttons]

Interesting post, although I think the fundamental difference between a child learning to use the potty in a short period of time is that there memory of using diapers is only relatively short term. Whereas reverse training as an adult is about overcoming in most cases many years of conscious conditioning. 

[2sail2]

How about drink coffee or other diuretics and  Eat diuretic foods like fish?

[Little Sherri]

16 hours ago, DAQ said:

Wetting these smaller amounts will increase diaper capacity and by wetting every 15-30 minutes I will ensure that my diapers are wet very quickly after changing

I'm not sure about the rest of what you're positing, but the above I agree with completely. When I went into diapers I had to train myself to give in to "nature's call" every 15 - 30 minutes, because when I got distracted and let myself go for a couple of hours without wetting, the wetting events would be larger, and more likely to overwhelm the diaper. Diapers prefer frequent light wetting, not infrequent deluges. One thing I would suggest as well is that you may not want to go in the same position all the time; part of the process of adapting to being in diapers, at least for me, was developing the ability to go in most if not all positions - standing, walking, sitting, lying down, riding a bike, while driving, mid-conversation, etc. 

As to why it's harder to unlearn something than to learn it, well, that's the nature of memory and kinesthetics.... try forgetting how to ride a bicycle. In my experience, you will become dependent on going more frequently, as you go down this road, because you will be losing conditioning in the related muscles by never holding it anymore, but, forgetting how to hold it if you have to seems unlikely. Not that I want to be a wet blanket on your dreams - I hope it works out for you. For me, what I've "achieved" after a year in diapers, is the requirement to pee pretty frequently, and the ability to not have to think very hard to initiate the process. After I start, I never have to push, and I basically lose track of what's happening - I've been surprised to discover via other tactile pathways, such as feeling warmth or a trickle, that I'm still apparently "going" a couple of minutes later, on occasion, but that's also the nature of a relaxed wetting - because you're not pushing, it happens more slowly, and there is no "stop" command required. 

I've prattled on about this elsewhere, but to provide an abridged example of how people don't tend to forget how to hold it, I read a paper by a doctor about his experience rehabilitating seniors who had been immobilized by inappropriate use of medication, either sedatives or anti-psychotics. Some of them had been rendered functionally incontinent because they couldn't get out of bed or out of their chairs themselves, and modern nursing homes have long since dispensed with bed pans, which are considered a vector for disease, and also require too much manpower to manage. So, these folks were treated like they were incontinent. At some point they were moved to a care setting where the environment was designed to be more supportive and less agitating (look up "Butterfly Home Project), and their meds were stepped down, and some of them regained mobility and some independence. Most of those who didn't have incontinence caused by a physical or cognitive deficit were able to go back to toileting pretty much normally, at least during the day, even though they had been in diapers, in some cases, for years. It would be like forgetting how to swallow.

[spark]

It sounds like an interesting experiment.   I find that wetting frequently (like once or twice an hour) does wonders for my bladder control (or lack of).  If have my pee, even just a little bit every once in a while- I'm soon wetting without much initiation. If I did it like every 30 minutes- after two hours- I can dribble for the rest of the time without too much effort

[Bonsai]

I suggest a different approach, that will for sure increase your urge to go. Steps:

- Drink 1/2 liter of water first thing in the morning.

- Fill a sport bottle with green tea or other natural diuretic beverage and sip from it every 10’. Refill the bottle once empty and keep going for the whole day.

- Once you start to feel you have to pee, focus on peeing a little bit each time you drink from your bottle (synchronize the two things, it will help you) but clench after the first spurt.

- Through the day, your urge to go will grow. Try to wet in less “easy” positions. If you find it hard to go, massage your bladder (relax your lower abdomen and press on it for a couple of seconds and then release, press again and release, and so on up to when your lower abdomen will contract and the urge to go will peak to levels that are impossible to resist)

- Through time, you will find yourself sipping more liquid at each of the 10’ intervals.

In 1 week, you should achieve urge incontinence: you will become unable to hold more than 200-300 ml and, once the urge strikes, it will be impossible to resist.

[Dubious]

You have learned to write and speak, now try to unlearn it

Its the same thing with diapers, its impossible 
So you're not unlearning what you have learned, you are learning something new
You are teaching your self that its ok to pee whenever you want and it becomes easier every time you do it, but your body is gonna fight this as it already learned not to pee your self 

[Constantlywet]

All I'm gonna say is, training to become incontinent is a long slow process. Learning to wet without thinking about it isn't just a physical thing. It's mental too. Took me over 4 years to get to the point where I get about a 1 to 3 second warning before my nappy starts filling. It's only about an egg cup full or so every time, multiple times a day. When Im  busy doing things and moving about, I don't feel the need, I just feel myself getting wet. One of the biggest things that you need to do is shrink your bladder. That takes time, especially if you still wake up with a full bladder because essentially, during the night, your disstenting the bladder and training it to hold more for the hours you sleep. During the day, learning to wet in small amounts contantly is the key to shrink it, but mastering bed wetting will get you to daytime incontinence quicker in my mind, or at least that's what worked for me. Now I wet without any control day and night. So much to the point where I pee on myself when changing/showering regularly. 

[herb330]

Just curious as to how the experiment has gone over the past few months.

 

after a while wetting and messing because a non issue

[DiaperboyEddie12]

On 4/3/2020 at 3:45 PM, Dubious said:

You have learned to write and speak, now try to unlearn it

Its the same thing with diapers, its impossible 
So you're not unlearning what you have learned, you are learning something new
You are teaching your self that its ok to pee whenever you want and it becomes easier every time you do it, but your body is gonna fight this as it already learned not to pee your self 

I hate to say this but when one thinks it is impossible it becomes impossible.  Instead of thinking or thinking out loud saying it is impossible say it is doable and it can and will be done.

 

On 4/2/2020 at 1:02 AM, DAQ said:

Arizona recently enacted a shelter in place order. I, like some others have decided to use the current situation to jump start my journey. I have taken the last 2 weeks to follow the path laid out by the 12 month diaper program. While I have had limited success on staying relaxed more and wetting more freely. The 12 month timeline always felt strange to me.

 

It always struck me as strange in regards to untraining. Why is it that a child can be rudimentary potty trained over the course of a few days of focused, dedicated training. Why is it then that it takes an adult who is much more intelligent 12+ months to untrain, albeit with less neuroplasticity. Children that are being taught to use the potty are fundamentally continent in that their urinary and bowels are developed. It is only the skills that are being trained. Should it not then be possible to reverse this process in an equally direct focused manner to become fundamentally incontinent while still having the developed bladder and bowel control?

 

Why is that outside of the untraining community we assume it takes around two weeks to form a new habit but when it comes to toileting “habits” we assume it take months or even years to untrain. It is not my goal to use semantics to try and analyze human psychology, but could a habit as straightforward as “Pee in diaper always” be made a habit very quickly? Now I don't think one can become incontinent in the sense of being unable to hold it. But I think a habit could be formed in as little as two weeks to jump start a process towards true incontinence. In the same way that a toddler is already continent while they being potty trained. I think it is possible to unpotty train in the same way. This will not be incontinence per se but it may make one much more diaper dependant if my theory is true. Incontinence in my opinion is what follows after the habit of using a diaper has been reinforced after many months. After the bladder has had an opportunity to shrink and the sphincters to atrophy through disuse.

 

Here is my experiment for the next two weeks. I got the idea from watching Mindlessly Diapered on Youtube. So she made it a habit to have a “potty position”. Every time she entered this position she would force herself to go regardless if she felt like she needed to or not. My plan is to set a timer for every 15-30 minutes (haven't decided exact frequency yet), stand up and force myself to wet. I think this will have the effect of training the body to:

1. wet more frequently when I am not thinking about it.

2. get the urge to wet more frequently all the time.

3. set increased intervals to reverse kegal (Currently have an alarm every hour).

4. Set the habit for wetting multiple times per hour.

5. May create pavilion response to vibration/alarms (I am currently using a Fitbit with vibration alarm)

6. This last one is purely hypothetical. But I am hoping that increasing my urinary frequency so much during the day that at night it will become subconscious and automatic.

Here is why I think this will work to jump start untraining. Currently, I have been following the 12 month diaper program. I have tried to stay relaxed and let me body take over when/how I release. I get about maybe 8-10 wetting events per day. They occur when my bladder fills, I get an urge to wet, and it becomes strong enough to overcome any inhibitions and sphincter tightness in the sitting position. The biggest weakness I currently see is that in the morning my bladder is mostly inactive. My diaper stays dry basically the entire time after my morning shower from 8:30am-10 or 11 with no activity. With this new method I will be wetting in the easiest position for me – standing, and I will be wetting between 2 and 4 times per hour. Or a minimum of 32 times per day. After two weeks of this I think that urinary frequency will greatly increase. It may even become habit to wet every time I stand. Making a form of latchkey incontinence. In addition this will dramatically increase the practice that I have for wetting.

 

This will have added benefits as I have a large bladder. I did an impromptu measure several weeks ago and found that it was nearly 750ml. This is enough to flood even the best medical diapers and even overwhelm ab/dl diapers if they are not boosted in only a couple floodings. Wetting these smaller amounts will increase diaper capacity and by wetting every 15-30 minutes I will ensure that my diapers are wet very quickly after changing. This schedule will also more accurately emulate true total trickly incontinence where the body is constantly dribbling. This should usability of each diaper.

 

I have additional ideas but that is all I can think of currently and wanted to post to get the communities thoughts. More to follow.

How is your diaper training going?  It has been a few months since you posted this.  Just wondering how it all went?

[SrDiapCaged]

The way I look at it is, the "12 Month Process" is to be looked upon as the solid base for becoming diaper dependent. But like all processes, there are always lots of tweaking and adjusting to suit everyone's needs. Hence the reason why everyone here has their own take on how to handle their own personal version of becoming diaper dependent. In my case because I have wasted so much time in the past few years doing the binge on/off diaper thing, I finally realized how stupid I was and in the past few months have concentrated in my goal of becoming diaper dependent (definitely pee, but still very uncertain about poopies). With that in mind and with some reasonable gains I have decided to seize upon an idea that was already mentioned here and started letting myself wet immediate (or close to it) the moment I feel that first pee notice. And while I totally wish to avoid the potty for any pee activity (except playtime) I have taken to sitting on the potty with my pullup on, totally relaxing myself and as soon as I feel the flow begin I mentally tell myself that this is what I want, this is my goal, I want to be diaper dependent at all times (poopies still in question). In this way, I feel that in a short period of time that I will be able to wet the moment I feel that first pee notice no matter where I am and what I am doing because I think that my bladder will have shrunken decently with more shrinkage on the way. 

As they say, different strokes for different folks, so long as we reach the goal of our desire.

[Chalky10]

I am also still at the stage of trying to relax and wet my diaper as soon as I feel the urge.  

 

[oznl]

I've not bothered with any attempt at bladder control for about 17 months now.   I wouldn't describe myself as incontinent but I've discovered that changes DO happen, they tend to happen in fits and starts and sometimes those changes are only obvious in retrospect (ie: AFTER they have occurred).

In writing the above it occurred to me that I wouldn't know if I was incontinent as I've not tested myself recently.  I've reached the point where I can kind of just let it happen and it takes care of itself although I believe I could stop it if I wanted to.

After a long period of no changes, I'm just starting to wonder just how long after I think I have "stopped" that I'm still actually dripping a little down there.  I've noticed I've been leaving my sphincter just flopped open for longer and longer periods of time and a kegel maneuver is just a vague memory of something I used to be able to do.

I should probably test myself again soon.

 

[DaveeBEd]

On 4/3/2020 at 8:45 PM, Dubious said:

You have learned to write and speak, now try to unlearn it

Its the same thing with diapers, its impossible 
So you're not unlearning what you have learned, you are learning something new
You are teaching your self that its ok to pee whenever you want and it becomes easier every time you do it, but your body is gonna fight this as it already learned not to pee your self 

ITs not impossible to entrain, its not easy and it takes time, but I assure you it can be done.

8 hours ago, SrDiapCaged said:

The way I look at it is, the "12 Month Process" is to be looked upon as the solid base for becoming diaper dependent. But like all processes, there are always lots of tweaking and adjusting to suit everyone's needs. Hence the reason why everyone here has their own take on how to handle their own personal version of becoming diaper dependent. In my case because I have wasted so much time in the past few years doing the binge on/off diaper thing, I finally realized how stupid I was and in the past few months have concentrated in my goal of becoming diaper dependent (definitely pee, but still very uncertain about poopies). With that in mind and with some reasonable gains I have decided to seize upon an idea that was already mentioned here and started letting myself wet immediate (or close to it) the moment I feel that first pee notice. And while I totally wish to avoid the potty for any pee activity (except playtime) I have taken to sitting on the potty with my pullup on, totally relaxing myself and as soon as I feel the flow begin I mentally tell myself that this is what I want, this is my goal, I want to be diaper dependent at all times (poopies still in question). In this way, I feel that in a short period of time that I will be able to wet the moment I feel that first pee notice no matter where I am and what I am doing because I think that my bladder will have shrunken decently with more shrinkage on the way. 

As they say, different strokes for different folks, so long as we reach the goal of our desire.

It is vital to relax and let your pee flow as soon as you feel the slightest urge to pee, that actively shrinks the bladder and gradually retrains the brain to relax the sphincter as soon as there's any pressure building in your bladder

[stevewet]

On 4/4/2020 at 2:50 PM, Constantlywet said:

All I'm gonna say is, training to become incontinent is a long slow process. Learning to wet without thinking about it isn't just a physical thing. It's mental too. Took me over 4 years to get to the point where I get about a 1 to 3 second warning before my nappy starts filling. It's only about an egg cup full or so every time, multiple times a day. When Im  busy doing things and moving about, I don't feel the need, I just feel myself getting wet. One of the biggest things that you need to do is shrink your bladder. That takes time, especially if you still wake up with a full bladder because essentially, during the night, your disstenting the bladder and training it to hold more for the hours you sleep. During the day, learning to wet in small amounts contantly is the key to shrink it, but mastering bed wetting will get you to daytime incontinence quicker in my mind, or at least that's what worked for me. Now I wet without any control day and night. So much to the point where I pee on myself when changing/showering regularly. 

Totally agree about bedwetting one that becomes a regular thing daytime control soon goes too.

[DaveeBEd]

Yes, when you dribble after showering before you can get yourself proper;y diapered again is a sure sign that you've lost control. I still remember getting a real thrill the first time that happened and being so disappointed when it didn't happen again for a few more days. Now its a real rush to get myself dried and covered before I dribble as it happens with every single change.

[SrDiapCaged]

6 hours ago, DaveeBEd said:

Yes, when you dribble after showering before you can get yourself proper;y diapered again is a sure sign that you've lost control. I still remember getting a real thrill the first time that happened and being so disappointed when it didn't happen again for a few more days. Now its a real rush to get myself dried and covered before I dribble as it happens with every single change.

Such a thrilling moment that must be for you. Eventually I will get there myself but right now I am totally pleased when I wake up in the morning and find that I had wetted in my diaper, and leaked, without having woken up. 

[DaveeBEd]

Its only quite recently that I've begun waking up in the night or when I get up in the morning and I'm consistently wet. Probably 5 times per week now and that's after 2 years and I think the nights where I'm dry now its because I haven't drunk quite enough water before bed. If I do that every night I don't believe I'd ever have a dry night again.I've also had the occasional night where some poo has leakedinto my diaper without it waking me which is still a real thrill.

[SrDiapCaged]

8 hours ago, DaveeBEd said:

Its only quite recently that I've begun waking up in the night or when I get up in the morning and I'm consistently wet. Probably 5 times per week now and that's after 2 years and I think the nights where I'm dry now its because I haven't drunk quite enough water before bed. If I do that every night I don't believe I'd ever have a dry night again.I've also had the occasional night where some poo has leakedinto my diaper without it waking me which is still a real thrill.

Delighted to hear that you are recently waking up wet more frequently. And yes, drinking enough water before bed time certainly helps you to wet more often during the night. 

[spookyhotdog]

On 4/3/2020 at 11:41 AM, Bonsai said:

I suggest a different approach, that will for sure increase your urge to go. Steps:

- Drink 1/2 liter of water first thing in the morning.

- Fill a sport bottle with green tea or other natural diuretic beverage and sip from it every 10’. Refill the bottle once empty and keep going for the whole day.

- Once you start to feel you have to pee, focus on peeing a little bit each time you drink from your bottle (synchronize the two things, it will help you) but clench after the first spurt.

- Through the day, your urge to go will grow. Try to wet in less “easy” positions. If you find it hard to go, massage your bladder (relax your lower abdomen and press on it for a couple of seconds and then release, press again and release, and so on up to when your lower abdomen will contract and the urge to go will peak to levels that are impossible to resist)

- Through time, you will find yourself sipping more liquid at each of the 10’ intervals.

In 1 week, you should achieve urge incontinence: you will become unable to hold more than 200-300 ml and, once the urge strikes, it will be impossible to resist.

Have you done this to know it works? Does the urge incontinence result from the constant manual bladder massaging? Its possible that could get it used to spasming more which causes urge incontinence. When you say wet in less "easy" position when I have a strong urge, am I doing this wetting while drinking the tea? Or should I never do a full wetting, ONLY wetting in small amounts when I drink tea.

[Bonsai]

Yes, I have tried this and it works for me. Since however I don’t really wish to become permanently incontinent, I have suspended the training after a while.The wall all around the bladder is muscle fiber (the mane is destrusor muscle) and the purpose of this exercise is to train such muscle to contract earlier and to become stiffer. This means that in time you will get the urge to go more suddenly and with lower liquid volumes in your bladder. 

You don’t want to empty your bladder each time you go because the training works on starting to pee and you want to start to pee as many times as possible through the day. Just let out a little spurt as often as possible and synchronize the liquid intake. The same rule goes for drinking: very frequently, very little each time.

[spookyhotdog]

On 8/30/2020 at 10:44 AM, Bonsai said:

Yes, I have tried this and it works for me. Since however I don’t really wish to become permanently incontinent, I have suspended the training after a while.The wall all around the bladder is muscle fiber (the mane is destrusor muscle) and the purpose of this exercise is to train such muscle to contract earlier and to become stiffer. This means that in time you will get the urge to go more suddenly and with lower liquid volumes in your bladder. 

You don’t want to empty your bladder each time you go because the training works on starting to pee and you want to start to pee as many times as possible through the day. Just let out a little spurt as often as possible and synchronize the liquid intake. The same rule goes for drinking: very frequently, very little each time.

So do you have to relax each time to let yourself pee, or can you push a spurt out?

[Bonsai]

3 hours ago, spookyhotdog said:

So do you have to relax each time to let yourself pee, or can you push a spurt out?

At the beginning you may have to force a little, but then after half a day doing it, it will become much easier and just relaxing will do it.

[Ginger]

I also found that trying to remain "OPEN" after peeing helped me lose bladder control as well. I will also say that I've lost some bowel control as well and I assume once one goes they both eventually may go. However, that was my desired outcome so maybe subconsciously thats why. Idk. Best of luck to you and i hope you enjoy the journey !!! ?

[DiaperboyEddie12]

3 hours ago, Ginger said:

I also found that trying to remain "OPEN" after peeing helped me lose bladder control as well. I will also say that I've lost some bowel control as well and I assume once one goes they both eventually may go. However, that was my desired outcome so maybe subconsciously thats why. Idk. Best of luck to you and i hope you enjoy the journey !!! ?

Just curious "OPEN"?  What you mean by that?