Using A Grammar Checker?

[BoTox]

Is anyone using a grammar checker? I'm trying out the free version of Grammarly. I use Open Office and the grammar/spell check with it is only so-so but it is free.

Grammarly is catching a lot of silly stuff that is not misspelled like I have the tendency of putting "the the" more than a few times!

Other than having a proofreader, this is helping.

Anyone use anything better?

[BabyJune]

My grammar checker is a GOOD education in the Sixties and Seventies. I learned English when teachers really taught the classes, plus a semester of journalism in college. I do, however, refer to the Associated Press Style Book occasionally because one cannot know everything (although some people think they do). Another good book is Strunk and White's Manual of Style. Online, you can use the Oxford Writing Laboratory (OWL).

[Angela Bauer]

Tastes change about the use of language. Even back in old times there were many versions of English. Consequently there are many style books, including ELEMENTS OF STYLE and THE AP STYLE BOOK.

June, when you were in school most promoted ELEMENTS OF STYLE. When you were in college studying journalism THE AP STYLE BOOK was all the rage. But, did you ever study proofreading?

Circa 1939 EB White was both a popular author and an editor of THE NEW YORKER magazine. He was selected to update Funk's circa 1920 ELEMENTS OF STYLE. The publishers of the update virtually gave free copies to most school libraries. The AP did the same with their style book for college journalism departments.

The problem is that hardly everyone trying to use Standard English since 1960 entirely agrees with EB White's opinions. Also by 1960 THE NEW YORK TIMES style book became far more popular with daily newspapers. I began writing for Southern California newspapers as a kid in 1977. One of those papers was the LOS ANGELES TIMES which had its own style book. In 1978 I began working after school as a typist for a law firm. There we used the ABA style book.

If your goal is to connect with readers of special interest fiction, such as members of DD, often it is vital to go easy on traditional style books.

As an exercise, go to a library and check-out any of EB White's once popular books. If you enjoy those still ask yourself if your readers these days flock to EB White. Follow your own gut.

[ppdude]

13 hours ago, BoTox said:

Is anyone using a grammar checker? I'm trying out the free version of Grammarly. I use Open Office and the grammar/spell check with it is only so-so but it is free.

Grammarly is catching a lot of silly stuff that is not misspelled like I have the tendency of putting "the the" more than a few times!

Other than having a proofreader, this is helping.

Anyone use anything better?

I've found that they don't work so well on the computer or phone. They can lock you into a form that the programmer used to check your grammar. Do what Angela suggested and get a style book. That way you can learn the elements of the language and apply them as you wish. It's not the "easy way out" but nothing that is worth something takes the thing we have the least of and that is time. Take the time -- it will be worth it in the end. Also invest in a good dictionary and thessarus (like Roget's). Good luck!

[BoTox]

2 hours ago, ppdude said:

I've found that they don't work so well on the computer or phone. They can lock you into a form that the programmer used to check your grammar. Do what Angela suggested and get a style book. That way you can learn the elements of the language and apply them as you wish. It's not the "easy way out" but nothing that is worth something takes the thing we have the least of and that is time. Take the time -- it will be worth it in the end. Also invest in a good dictionary and thessarus (like Roget's). Good luck!

I don't have a problem with what I want to say but I do have a problem with the way my brain sees it and the way it actually appears on a printed page. I also type "they" for "the" and vice versa a lot. A grammar checker catches that nearly 100% of the time and I certainly know when and were to use both of those properly.

4 hours ago, Angela Bauer said:

Tastes change about the use of language. Even back in old times there were many versions of English. Consequently

..

If your goal is to connect with readers of special interest fiction, such as members of DD, often it is vital to go easy on traditional style books.

Indeed tastes change. The complete and utter misuse of words drives me to distraction.

5 hours ago, BabyJune said:

My grammar checker is a GOOD education in the Sixties and Seventies. I learned English when teachers really taught the classes, plus a semester of journalism in college. I do, however, refer to the Associated Press Style Book occasionally because one cannot know everything (although some people think they do). Another good book is Strunk and White's Manual of Style. Online, you can use the Oxford Writing Laboratory (OWL).

I had a good education but, to put it bluntly, proper English can be pretty boring sometimes. My mind outruns my fingers most of the time and I drop words or mistype "where" for "were" and vice versa a lot more than I care to admit. Grammarly found four such instances in one story that I had proofread no fewer than three times before I published.

I find typos in online articles and the odd printer material I read all the time. I chalk it up to quicker production timelines and move on. I would prefer books, especially my books, to be better edited and refined.

[WBDaddy]

My ex used Grammarly to "fix" her manuscripts.  Her grasp of English (for someone who grew up in Jersey) limited the effectiveness of the program.  

[WetDad]

I find Grammarly to be only so-so at proper US English. I use Microsoft Word and it's grammar checker for all my work. Even then, some things are not caught. There are times I have to refer to the Chicago Manual of Style for proper formatting, the Oxford Comma, and such.

[spark]

I struggle with this, and it's not that I don't know how to use proper grammar.  

Spellcheckers check spelling, and if I can't remember- Google is a great resource.   I know the rules, but the problem is I type faster than I think, and I miss articles.   Sometimes I miss negatives, which changes the meaning the of the sentence.  Proofreading doesn't work for me, because I know what I wanted to say.   I installed Grammarly, but that only helps a little bit.  Fact is-I'm not good at proofing, because I'm not detailed and I don't read word by word.

I'm writing a story, and the grammar is very important to me.   I'm using it in word- which is connected to my Grammarly account, and then I'm having the Windows Narator read it, because if I read myself- I don't see it.  Ironically- even with that that fix- I still missed somethings.

[BoTox]

7 hours ago, spark said:

I struggle with this, and it's not that I don't know how to use proper grammar.  

Spellcheckers check spelling, and if I can't remember- Google is a great resource.   I know the rules, but the problem is I type faster than I think, and I miss articles.   Sometimes I miss negatives, which changes the meaning the of the sentence.  Proofreading doesn't work for me, because I know what I wanted to say.   I installed Grammarly, but that only helps a little bit.  Fact is-I'm not good at proofing, because I'm not detailed and I don't read word by word.

I'm writing a story, and the grammar is very important to me.   I'm using it in word- which is connected to my Grammarly account, and then I'm having the Windows Narator read it, because if I read myself- I don't see it.  Ironically- even with that that fix- I still missed somethings.

Exactly! My mind already knows the whole story and fills in the missing pieces that I'm desperately trying to fix. Our mind literally plays tricks on us.

I may give the narrator a try if it is available in Open Office. I don't use MS Office.

[ppdude]

16 hours ago, spark said:

I struggle with this, and it's not that I don't know how to use proper grammar.  

 

Don't we all struggle? Yes, we do. All of us have the same issues you stated! It's a common human problem. The hard part is getting through it. It takes a lot of time and one must develop a high degree of self discipline. It only comes with time and practice and developing a high degree of degree of detailed observance. That's what makes a good editor, detective, and a host of other occupations. We can all get better at our jobs by getting better at paying attention to detail.

[spark]

On 9/14/2019 at 2:31 PM, ppdude said:

Don't we all struggle? Yes, we do. All of us have the same issues you stated! It's a common human problem. The hard part is getting through it. It takes a lot of time and one must develop a high degree of self discipline. It only comes with time and practice and developing a high degree of degree of detailed observance. That's what makes a good editor, detective, and a host of other occupations. We can all get better at our jobs by getting better at paying attention to detail.

I don't believe it's a universal struggle among all us.  At least to the same degree.  That hasn't been my observation in the past.  And from my perspective, the grammar Nazis seem to have this attitude that it just a matter of trying harder and caring about your work.  I receive this input as though you are judging my effort and pride in my work.

Just by reading some of the posts on this discussion, and you will find some have a smug attitude, or that it's only a matter of using the right reference manual.  A reference manual isn't going to help catch the missing article, and I might not realize that I missed until the fourth or fifth time that I read the text over.  I could be reading text a 3rd or 4th time and I will catch errors, which is not efficient for all types of writing.    

I believe this is something that certain people are better at than other.  They have a better eye for detail, and immediately catch the differences in those photos.  In my case- the photos look identical, and I need somebody to point out the differences.  On the other hand, I'm very good with spreadsheets, and especially Excel.  I make some incredibly complex spreadsheets that refer to different pages and have some very complicated formulas.  Mind you the math is quite basic,  and it's just a series of simple codes.   To me it's very natural, and I can't make a basic spreadsheet.  I have a buddy  who teaches math and computers, and his eyes roll to back of his head when I try to explain them.   For me they are easy.  Mind you, I've spent years and years coding Excel spreadsheets, so i've become very good at it.   Interestingly, the coding involved in spread sheeting is just as detailed oriented, and I can usually spot when somebody manually codes a spread sheeting (average figure being manually inputed).   However, the coding error will typically show as a div/0 error, or something similar.   A missing word that gets missed by Grammarlly is waiting for somebody to find it.

[WBDaddy]

1 hour ago, spark said:

Just by reading some of the posts on this discussion, and you will find some have a smug attitude.

Allow me to clarify (as I'm sure my comment came off the closest I could detect to being smug).  My ex's grasp of sentence structure and grammar was positively atrocious.  I tried to edit her first book.  I got through the first 8 chapters.  It was brutal.  And she even pushed back on me regarding suggestions I made to improve the narrative.  So I let her do her thing, and she wrote 7 books (which can be found on Amazon), and she used Grammarly to "fix" the messes.  It didn't.  She didn't care.  And she brutalized me about the fact that she had "written" all seven books while I was still laboring away on one.  This was a major contributor to the end of our marriage, so yeah, there's some latent hostility living in there about that subject for me.

I'm not perfect.  I make mistakes.  I miss stuff.  Hell, I've written entire chapters based on information that I forgot to include in previous chapters.  And I don't think less of people who struggle with something that comes relatively naturally to me.  I think less of people who don't bother trying, for sure.  And I think less of people who hide behind (insert excuse here) rather than try.  Reaching out to inquire about tools that can potentially help = trying.  

[BoTox]

Hmm, mixed messages here. My problem is no stylebook in the world is going to fix the fact that I think faster than I type and spellcheck doesn't correct a properly spelled word in the wrong place.

I'm running Grammarly on all of my previously published stories, stories I've personally proofread at least 4-5 times. It is very embarrassing to see how many times I used "really" and "actually" in my stories. On top of that, it found a hundred missing commas and a half that many commas that I didn't need.

In the end, will it make me a better writer (as if I am one now?) Probably not. Will it make my stories less painful and possibly enjoyable to read? It definitely won't hurt.

[Cute_Kitten]

I think it certainly couldn't hurt.  I don't use a grammar checker (though I probably should). My grammar and style comes from several college English courses, though I do have Elements of Style  on my bookshelf, along with a lot of other books on writing. 

Grammar can be used as part of style/tone/characterization in a story, even improper grammar. So sometimes, depending on the story, it can be worth paying extra attention to if it would add anything to that particular story.  (Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn comes to mind. The first person POV lends itself well to a unique diction that gives the book a flavor of its own and helps bring Huck and his world to life). 

My biggest grammatical vice tends to be typos that slip by no matter how many times I proofread. It's funny how just one missing letter can change the imagery.....examples from my works that readers have caught: the blue can instead of the blue cane (Naughty Christmas) and the cock on the wall instead of the clock on the wall.  (The Man In The Gray Suit)  

[WBDaddy]

10 hours ago, BoTox said:

Hmm, mixed messages here. My problem is no stylebook in the world is going to fix the fact that I think faster than I type and spellcheck doesn't correct a properly spelled word in the wrong place.

Completely agree.  Also worth noting that even Grammarly won't necessarily pick up on a correctly structured sentence that's highly convoluted and confusing.  That's one of my big weaknesses - compound sentences that get out of control.

[ppdude]

16 hours ago, spark said:

I don't believe it's a universal struggle among all us.  At least to the same degree.  That hasn't been my observation in the past.  And from my perspective, the grammar Nazis seem to have this attitude that it just a matter of trying harder and caring about your work.  I receive this input as though you are judging my effort and pride in my work.

Just by reading some of the posts on this discussion, and you will find some have a smug attitude, or that it's only a matter of using the right reference manual.  A reference manual isn't going to help catch the missing article, and I might not realize that I missed until the fourth or fifth time that I read the text over.  I could be reading text a 3rd or 4th time and I will catch errors, which is not efficient for all types of writing.    

I believe this is something that certain people are better at than other.  They have a better eye for detail, and immediately catch the differences in those photos.  In my case- the photos look identical, and I need somebody to point out the differences.  On the other hand, I'm very good with spreadsheets, and especially Excel.  I make some incredibly complex spreadsheets that refer to different pages and have some very complicated formulas.  Mind you the math is quite basic,  and it's just a series of simple codes.   To me it's very natural, and I can't make a basic spreadsheet.  I have a buddy  who teaches math and computers, and his eyes roll to back of his head when I try to explain them.   For me they are easy.  Mind you, I've spent years and years coding Excel spreadsheets, so i've become very good at it.   Interestingly, the coding involved in spread sheeting is just as detailed oriented, and I can usually spot when somebody manually codes a spread sheeting (average figure being manually inputed).   However, the coding error will typically show as a div/0 error, or something similar.   A missing word that gets missed by Grammarlly is waiting for somebody to find it.

Your thinking is good. You may attribute skill to knowledge which is fine. It may be linked to natural talent, accumulated knowledge, and maybe interest. I've learned over time that much of the time, problems, for the most part, stem from the lack of attention to detail. We all claim to have it, but in practice is lacking. It takes a lot of time and effort to get there. It ain't as easy as we think. We just can't get down to the mind numbing details because we don't have the patience or the time. Everything is a quick paced results oriented outcome where details are often overlooked. It gets us every time.

I'm not trying to be smug or superior; just pointing out that paying attention to detail is a universal problem. We often think we've got the details overed, but in reality often have to go back to something we overlooked or forgot. We all suffer from i. Some of us deal with it better than other. That's all. If we took the time to cross the t's and dot the i's, we'd be better off in anything we attempt.