Fake LGTB support

[Alice]

Hey guys,

At the start of June a lot of companies change their backgrounds to the rainbow flag. I think it's nice that they show that they accept the LGTB community, but then the second June is over they change it back again. Does anybody else think this is kinda weird as well? I think it feels fake.

 

[Lost Little Neppy]

Meh. Pride month is over, so they probably don't feel compelled to do it anymore. Same thing happens in October when logos and other things change to pink to reflect breast cancer awareness. I guess it depends on the person whether or not it feels superficial, but I rarely buy into companies trying to get into people's good graces like that.

[Nappygirl97]

It doesn't make sense to keep special event branding up longer than the event for a multitude of reasons money advertising drawing In new customers it goes on.

[Elfy]

They'll be glad that they can now stop pretending to give a shit for eleven months.

[willnotwill]

As long as they live by the alleged support the rest of the year, why should you care?   They have other causes they likely want to support (breast cancer, etc...).

 

[Elfy]

6 hours ago, willnotwill said:

As long as they live by the alleged support the rest of the year, why should you care?   They have other causes they likely want to support (breast cancer, etc...).

 

Because it's fake and exploitative. The hopping of bandwagons shows that there is no support for any of the causes. I'd rather they just admit they don't care than give us their required one month of rainbow logos. The speed with which they all dropped the logos was a sight to behold.

[erevu]

Would you rather they entirely ignore it? Or should they rainbow all year? What exactly could they do that you would not criticize?

[Elfy]

I'd rather they ignored it to be honest. Pride has been taken by corporations who use it to show how progressive they are and score public relations points, it was never supposed to be like that. It doesn't help anyone for a company to change it's logos for one month and then go back to normal, it's desperate commercialisation and it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

I see zero reason why companies would change their logos for a month and do nothing else different except to keep up with acceptable social trends and jump on the bandwagon. Many of these companies will be the same ones that not so long ago would be actively discriminating against LGBT people, I dare say some still would if there weren't laws stopping it

It's the corporate equivalent of "slacktivism". Just some old guys with suits telling each other they are making a difference when the only thing they care about is their bottom line.

Am I grateful that LGBT culture is more mainstream now? Absolutely, things have improved in many ways even from when I was a teenager. The exploitation and commercialisation of us as a group to sell crap isn't a surprise just not something to be welcomed.

If you want to know what they could do that I wouldn't criticise... They could ignore it. I don't need to be pandered to for a one month every year. If they want to make a donation to an LGBT charity that would be great, if they want to implement diversity rules and protections in their guidelines that's great. Just don't stick a rainbow filter on your logo and tell me you're an ally when I know that if LGBT was still underground you would ignore it and discriminate against those in the community.

[ForbiddenFruit]

12 hours ago, Elfy said:

Many of these companies will be the same ones that not so long ago would be actively discriminating against LGBT people, I dare say somestill would if there weren't laws stopping it.

Some of them make financial donations to anti-LGBT political candidates. 

[willnotwill]

Well, I'll have to disagree.   Perhaps it was the least they can do, but it does show a greater acceptance of the cause.    It also means that they are willing to forgo any boycotts or other enmity from the anti-LBGT forces.   And while you can argue they have only a profit motivation, NIKE for example has donated $4.6 Million over the past seven years to LGBT organizations.   You can call that "fake" support if you want.    To me it looks like the industry finally realizes that this is something worth supporting.

[Sailor Snow]

Personally i dont really care what they do. If they want to show support for the lgbt community then i dont have a problem with it. The reasons could be very wide like truly wanting to show support to just wanting more lgbt people to shop at their company. But overall i think that whatever the reason its probaly a good thing rather then a bad thing that they do it no matter what the reason.

[rosalie.bent]

On 7/6/2019 at 8:29 AM, erevu said:

Would you rather they entirely ignore it? Or should they rainbow all year? What exactly could they do that you would not criticize?

good point. One thing that annoys a lot of people who support LGBT but have actual lives outside of it is that nothing short of grovelling 100% is acceptable. I write and publish LGBT books, but the same people that applaud that (but dont buy of course) then criticise a NON-lgbt book that comes after.

Companies that support you 1/12 of the year are actually giving you more time than your pro-rata population would otherwise deserve.

 

Oh yeah... and you know how many non-ABDL LGBT folk support ABDL??? NONE. you know how many criticise ABDLs?  LOTS

[Elfy]

You're willfully missing the point. No one is expecting or wanting any grovelling and the idea that they do is an argument used by people who very much don't support LGBT people.

I have so many questions as to the books claim that I barely know where to begin... How do you know these people supporting and then criticising are LGBT? How do you know they are the same people at all? How do you know they aren't buying the books? Are you saying people will message you with support for a book they haven't bought or read and message you to criticise for a different book they haven't bought or read? What people are taking their time to message authors whom they clearly don't read? What was the criticism? Did this only happen once and you decided to extrapolate it to a wider population?

The point is tokenism does nothing to help LGBT people and in fact can make it worse. It frustrates bigots to the point where LGBT people can often face more prejudice at that time of year. Would I rather companies have a rainbow logo all year round or not at all? How about they drop the opportunistic attempt to exploit the celebrations altogether. The rainbow logos aren't support, they are marketing. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. LGBT people are not tools to sell clothes, cars, gadgets and all that other crap. So, yeah, I guess I would prefer if they kept their rainbows to themselves and focused on making their workplaces and society better for LGBT people rather than try to score popularity points. We don't need fairweather fans who would turn away if public opinion swung the other way.

The ABDL connection doesn't make any sense and is clearly not based on anything in reality. Why would LGBT people not into ageplay support ABDLs? What do you want them to do? Stand on the sidelines waving a flag? I'm LGBT and ABDL but that doesn't mean I automatically support any other fetish group. Putting my LGBT hat on I'll criticise ABDLs as well, at least the ones who turn up to Pride events in fetish gear and diapers as well as the ones constantly trying to sandwich their ABDLness into the LGBT world. The argument that LGBT people should support ABDLs is hilarious and bizarre.

[Bettypooh]

ALL people who do not fit into society's norms should at least understand what that is like and extend whatever courtesies they think appropriate for them and their kind to the other different ones who are not in the social norms either. To do any less is to be a hypocrite which is universally held to be a bad thing It's equally hypocritical to act as if you're accepting or supporting someone just for appearances sake, only to abandon them when you feel that profits you better

Nobody should get what they themselves aren't willing to freely give to others.

As to Pride events, their original concept has become blurred and in many places commercialized too Part of the problem is that there was never a set of rules or limits defined on how they should be done- only suggestions given allowing local organizers who may have other agendas to do what they please under the "Pride" banner. I have seen the results of that first-hand and from long ago where one event I helped organize had commercial booths allotted based on certain people's personal connection to them even when other similar companies were even more LGBTQ friendly. In other words politics. I stood against that but I was essentially out-voted. After some years of seeing how all that was going and getting more common I stopped volunteering and assisting with that event

I've learned long ago that without enforced rules or limitations the end result is always chaos and with that, failure.

Conversely I've also been part of a organizations start-up where our means of funding was ourselves, and that wasn't enough to do the job, so we had to accept the support and funding of others just to keep the dream alive even when that meant we were collaborating with "bandwagon" people whose motivations were only for themselves and not really for us Thankfully we passed that point and I can still remember when we first declined acceptance of one of those kinds. When that vote went around we were all smiles because we knew that not only had we done the right thing, that also meant that we'd crossed the threshold of success and our little organization would now survive and prosper as it should

Beggars can't be choosers and you have to get past begging to truly succeed.

There's really no connection between LGBTQ and ABDL save that both groups are not well accepted in society and that some of us fit both groups. In that much at we should at least tolerate each other since that's what we want for our own selves.

Bettypooh

 

[oznl]

I know a little bit about how large corporations tick.  I know a reasonable amount about ABDL and for reasons outside the scope of present discussion, I’m learning a lot about TG as well.

It’s true, whilst some misty-eyed marketing millennial may have some altruistic feelings on the whole “Pride” topic, the expenditure of resource and cash is driven by cold, hard ROI and the underlying sociological equation is ugly.  Doesn’t change the fact that some good may come from that resource and cash.  I’d take it anyway, do what you can with it.

@Bettypoohdid however make what I thought was a really important point in the subsequent ABDL vs TG debate that I thought could do with amplification.  I don’t know what, if any co-efficiency between ABDL and TG behaviours might exist but it doesn’t matter.  We are both minority groups firmly in the “.alt” space, subject to social sanction but looking for tolerance.  If we can’t tolerate each other, what hope have we got?

[rosalie.bent]

On 9/5/2019 at 7:50 PM, Bettypooh said:

ALL people who do not fit into society's norms should at least understand what that is like and extend whatever courtesies they think appropriate for them and their kind to the other different ones who are not in the social norms either. To do any less is to be a hypocrite which is universally held to be a bad thing It's equally hypocritical to act as if you're accepting or supporting someone just for appearances sake, only to abandon them when you feel that profits you better

Nobody should get what they themselves aren't willing to freely give to others.

As to Pride events, their original concept has become blurred and in many places commercialized too Part of the problem is that there was never a set of rules or limits defined on how they should be done- only suggestions given allowing local organizers who may have other agendas to do what they please under the "Pride" banner. I have seen the results of that first-hand and from long ago where one event I helped organize had commercial booths allotted based on certain people's personal connection to them even when other similar companies were even more LGBTQ friendly. In other words politics. I stood against that but I was essentially out-voted. After some years of seeing how all that was going and getting more common I stopped volunteering and assisting with that event

I've learned long ago that without enforced rules or limitations the end result is always chaos and with that, failure.

Conversely I've also been part of a organizations start-up where our means of funding was ourselves, and that wasn't enough to do the job, so we had to accept the support and funding of others just to keep the dream alive even when that meant we were collaborating with "bandwagon" people whose motivations were only for themselves and not really for us Thankfully we passed that point and I can still remember when we first declined acceptance of one of those kinds. When that vote went around we were all smiles because we knew that not only had we done the right thing, that also meant that we'd crossed the threshold of success and our little organization would now survive and prosper as it should

Beggars can't be choosers and you have to get past begging to truly succeed.

There's really no connection between LGBTQ and ABDL save that both groups are not well accepted in society and that some of us fit both groups. In that much at we should at least tolerate each other since that's what we want for our own selves.

Bettypooh

 

well said Betty. If you want people to support you, then you should support them. ABDL and LGBT are similar in that they are small minorities. Helping one, helps the other. or have some people not yet realised that the point of supporting a minority is to support the rights of ALL minorities?

On 8/30/2019 at 9:45 PM, Elfy said:

You're willfully missing the point. No one is expecting or wanting any grovelling and the idea that they do is an argument used by people who very much don't support LGBT people.

I have so many questions as to the books claim that I barely know where to begin... How do you know these people supporting and then criticising are LGBT? How do you know they are the same people at all? How do you know they aren't buying the books? Are you saying people will message you with support for a book they haven't bought or read and message you to criticise for a different book they haven't bought or read? What people are taking their time to message authors whom they clearly don't read? What was the criticism? Did this only happen once and you decided to extrapolate it to a wider population?

The point is tokenism does nothing to help LGBT people and in fact can make it worse. It frustrates bigots to the point where LGBT people can often face more prejudice at that time of year. Would I rather companies have a rainbow logo all year round or not at all? How about they drop the opportunistic attempt to exploit the celebrations altogether. The rainbow logos aren't support, they are marketing. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. LGBT people are not tools to sell clothes, cars, gadgets and all that other crap. So, yeah, I guess I would prefer if they kept their rainbows to themselves and focused on making their workplaces and society better for LGBT people rather than try to score popularity points. We don't need fairweather fans who would turn away if public opinion swung the other way.

The ABDL connection doesn't make any sense and is clearly not based on anything in reality. Why would LGBT people not into ageplay support ABDLs? What do you want them to do? Stand on the sidelines waving a flag? I'm LGBT and ABDL but that doesn't mean I automatically support any other fetish group. Putting my LGBT hat on I'll criticise ABDLs as well, at least the ones who turn up to Pride events in fetish gear and diapers as well as the ones constantly trying to sandwich their ABDLness into the LGBT world. The argument that LGBT people should support ABDLs is hilarious and bizarre.

When you only accept support you personally approve of and meets your specific needs and prejudices, you will end up with none at all.

As to the 'books' question, I get a LOT of email and a lot of messages. Maybe as an author, you dont. I messaged you on twitter and you didnt even bother to respond, so maybe that is why you dont get the feedback and commentary I do. But then again, you seem openly hostile to me for reasons I dont understand. The attacks on me for formula feeding my baby was a very revealing experience. You seem to not really accept the right for others to have behaviours and opinions that dont line up with yours. Thats why LGBT support must match your highness' standards or be rejected just as my baby-care protocols dont meet your exacting demands. Welcome to the world of the permanently offended.

[Lyra]

The general consensus I've seen across the LGBT community is that while appreciated when people include our stories in their works,but it's prefered that those people use their voices to help spread the word of authentic LGBT stories. I know as an author and trans woman I'd be very hesitant to endorse any trans narrative written by a cis person, that's how we get stuff like "Adam" by Ariel Schrag. A well written story can bring comfort to people but I'm really not sold on the idea of cishet person using our stories and lives for their own uses as support. My first novel has a mixed race cast but I wouldn't say I'm supporting the African diaspora or Latinx communities by including them in my story.

As for the main point of this thread, forgive me for putting words in your mouth Elfy, but I think what you're saying is it's the cynicism and "woke" branding that's come in recent years that you have issue with. Supporting the community is not Marks and Spencers putting out a LGBT sandwich, or twitter accounts putting a rainbow logo on their profile. It's vogue highlighting LGBT models (and plus size, disabled, basically anything gets away from the skinny white norm), it's a gamer raising $340,000 for a trans kids charity to spite a rampant transphob, it's publishers and bloggers highlighting LGBT authors and their stories. It's about giving us a space for our voice to be heard, if only for a short time.

[Elfy]

42 minutes ago, rosalie.bent said:

I messaged you on twitter and you didnt even bother to respond, so maybe that is why you dont get the feedback and commentary I do

I can't say I remember the message from you. I don't have any in my inbox so maybe it was a comment on something? Either way I must have missed it, nothing personal, I'm very, very new to Twitter so I may have overlooked something. I do get comments and feeback just usually not from people who haven't read a story.

I think Lyra got it right regarding cynicism and "wokeness". I understand what people are saying regarding accepting only the support you deem acceptable but I'm also not going to suck the dick of companies who deign to put a rainbow over their logo for a month. My identity is not a commodity to be exploited and sold by everyone looking to make a quick buck off me. Maybe it's cynicism, maybe it's stubborness, maybe it's principles but I do feel like I can be selective of support. If a far-right political party changed their logo to a rainbow I'm not going to say thank you.

In this era of corporations trying to be human we are also seeing hate crimes against LGBT people rise so I don't particularly value their "support". It could easily be a coincidence what with everything else going on in the world but I feel completely justified in my stance. I just don't understand why so many people look at a corporation making billions of dollars, see them change their logo for one month and think "Oh how wonderful! What heroes!" They almost literally couldn't do any less.

[rosalie.bent]

11 minutes ago, Elfy said:

I can't say I remember the message from you. I don't have any in my inbox so maybe it was a comment on something? Either way I must have missed it, nothing personal, I'm very, very new to Twitter so I may have overlooked something. I do get comments and feeback just usually not from people who haven't read a story.

I think Lyra got it right regarding cynicism and "wokeness". I understand what people are saying regarding accepting only the support you deem acceptable but I'm also not going to suck the dick of companies who deign to put a rainbow over their logo for a month. My identity is not a commodity to be exploited and sold by everyone looking to make a quick buck off me. Maybe it's cynicism, maybe it's stubborness, maybe it's principles but I do feel like I can be selective of support. If a far-right political party changed their logo to a rainbow I'm not going to say thank you.

In this era of corporations trying to be human we are also seeing hate crimes against LGBT people rise so I don't particularly value their "support". It could easily be a coincidence what with everything else going on in the world but I feel completely justified in my stance. I just don't understand why so many people look at a corporation making billions of dollars, see them change their logo for one month and think "Oh how wonderful! What heroes!" They almost literally couldn't do any less.

The problem is that they COULD do less and many do. Change is incremental and often generational. Our parents views on race look appalling to us now and yet, they were the generation that drove the civil rights movement. We are to be PART of the change, not the change in its entirety. But if you choose to criticise and reject the support you get, however small or tangential, you encourage others do give you none at all or worse, turn on you.