Reference guide: Dialogue in stories

[Electrically]

On 1/28/2019 at 4:36 PM, WBDaddy said:

Which is why I said "natural", not "normal".  But mostly for me it's about casual versus overly formal dialogue.  What's the setting?  Is this a discussion in a job interview?  Or at a bar?  Totally changes the way most people speak.

Hi WBDaddy

i have recently tried very hard to write a story, I wish I would have read this thread before starting but…

so many mistakes…

It’s so very hard to capture what emotions, personalities, and descriptions I am hoping for. 
The problem seems to be, I believe I used the correct words punctuation etc. and even as I edit it 5 times I still don’t seem to catch it or explain it as well as I would like to. Really frustrating.

 I have read thousands of stories, and some I find super easy to read without question, all the emotions etc. are easy to ‘get’

and

Others are hard to understand while using tons of discription adjectives all over the place  

I hoped to be able to use simple, understandable language without overly describing however getting the ‘feeling’ across it’s really Fing hard 

Thanks for all the work you’ve put in 

E

[WBDaddy]

2 hours ago, Electrically said:

The problem seems to be, I believe I used the correct words punctuation etc. and even as I edit it 5 times I still don’t seem to catch it or explain it as well as I would like to. Really frustrating.

We are all our own worst critics.  I read material that I wrote 10 years ago that people gushed about for years after and I say to myself, "Damn, there is so much I could have done better here!"

[spark]

4 hours ago, Electrically said:

It’s so very hard to capture what emotions, personalities, and descriptions I am hoping for. 
The problem seems to be, I believe I used the correct words punctuation etc. and even as I edit it 5 times I still don’t seem to catch it or explain it as well as I would like to. Really frustrating.

This is a huge weakness for me.   i think while I type, and I think faster than I type.   My rough drafts tend to in passive tense.  That's not always a bad thing, but it usually is.   I use a lot of extraneous words.  Really and Well are two my favorite words.  I should pay a fine every time I use them.  In my defense, I have a stammer, so I use those words when I'm to gather my thoughts.

My system is: I use the free download of Grammarly as an add-on to Word.  I also use the editor on Word, which does a good job with punctuation.  My secret weapon is the read-aloud function.  Microsoft reads it to me.  I can hear how it sounds, and if it is clunky.  I keep listening until I go through the whole section without stopping the voice.     

[Electrically]

8 hours ago, WBDaddy said:

We are all our own worst critics.  I read material that I wrote 10 years ago that people gushed about for years after and I say to myself, "Damn, there is so much I could have done better here!"

So you’re saying maybe in 10 years, if I was to practice I might be better to this. 🤣🤣

7 hours ago, spark said:

This is a huge weakness for me.   i think while I type, and I think faster than I type.   My rough drafts tend to in passive tense.  That's not always a bad thing, but it usually is.   I use a lot of extraneous words.  Really and Well are two my favorite words.  I should pay a fine every time I use them.  In my defense, I have a stammer, so I use those words when I'm to gather my thoughts.

My system is: I use the free download of Grammarly as an add-on to Word.  I also use the editor on Word, which does a good job with punctuation.  My secret weapon is the read-aloud function.  Microsoft reads it to me.  I can hear how it sounds, and if it is clunky.  I keep listening until I go through the whole section without stopping the voice.     

Yeah, there are definitely words. I should pay a fine for. (Soon, quietly, softly, quickly)

I can’t seem to find a way around them either. Very frustrating.

11 minutes ago, Electrically said:

So you’re saying maybe in 10 years, if I was to practice I might be better to this. 🤣🤣

Yeah, there are definitely words. I should pay a fine for. (Soon, quietly, softly, quickly)

I can’t seem to find a way around them either. Very frustrating.

The reading it back to me program would be awesome. I could see how that would work really well.

[ValentinesStuff]

The reading back aloud is also great for finding missed words.

[spark]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:23 AM, Electrically said:

So you’re saying maybe in 10 years, if I was to practice I might be better to this. 🤣🤣

Yeah, there are definitely words. I should pay a fine for. (Soon, quietly, softly, quickly)

I can’t seem to find a way around them either. Very frustrating.

Fortunately, Grammarly catches many of those words, and the read-aloud also helps with word choice.

I try not to worry about when I write the rough draft because i just want the idea on paper.  I think the key is to use the tools that we have available to help edit after we write.

 

[Babypants]

On 1/28/2019 at 3:36 PM, WBDaddy said:

Which is why I said "natural", not "normal".  But mostly for me it's about casual versus overly formal dialogue.  What's the setting?  Is this a discussion in a job interview?  Or at a bar?  Totally changes the way most people speak.

I agree with just about all of this post.  It's the segment on Attribution of Dialogue that gives me pause.  Among the subtle things that go wrong in writing fiction is (a) having your characters all speak at the same educational level; and (b) keeping the story moving at a steady pace.  If you could chart your thoughts, you would discover that they are long on nouns and short on verbs, especially intransitive verbs.  Secondly, they are jumbled because your brain is constantly processing input from all of your senses, and it doesn't prioritize one sense over another.  Stories are most realistic, therefore, when the pace is uneven.  You can speed up text by reducing the number of commas, and this is where eliminating variants on "said" comes into play.  But using commas, and likewise introspection, gives your text a more herky-jerky feel that is closer to the working of the brain.  By using such devices to vary the pace, you avoid (b).  So the moral of the story is to use verbs, adverbs and adjectives with a sense of purpose.  With regard to your alternative versions of sample text, you should search for a medium between the two poles, slanting it to one pole or the other as the needs of the text at the particular moment dictate.   

[WBDaddy]

24 minutes ago, Babypants said:

With regard to your alternative versions of sample text, you should search for a medium between the two poles, slanting it to one pole or the other as the needs of the text at the particular moment dictate.   

I 100% agree. 

I would posit that, in the years since I posted this guide, I have recognized the importance of *blocking* dialogue.  Adding in actions, facial expressions, movement, etc.  I acknowledge that "said" and "asked" have purpose from time to time.  The only purpose I can think of (not saying there aren't other possible purposes) to use flowery verbs like "exclaimed" and "screeched" and what-not is to save oneself the trouble of showing (via other blocking like actions, etc) instead of telling.

[Electrically]

21 hours ago, WBDaddy said:

I 100% agree. 

I would posit that, in the years since I posted this guide, I have recognized the importance of *blocking* dialogue.  Adding in actions, facial expressions, movement, etc.  I acknowledge that "said" and "asked" have purpose from time to time.  The only purpose I can think of (not saying there aren't other possible purposes) to use flowery verbs like "exclaimed" and "screeched" and what-not is to save oneself the trouble of showing (via other blocking like actions, etc) instead of telling.

I’m not 100% sure of everything you guys said, but I get that the idea of adding life to people in your story. To be able to differentiate each character by what or how they say it. Hence you can get away with not using as many words explaining who said what. I find it very hard to do this even trying to picture myself in conversation, with whoever. It’s really hard to explain it in writing. 
You know another thing that I think, and this really messes with me, when I am trying to write I think I have to avoid a character saying the same thing, but in real life people repeat themselves constantly, and sometimes that adds character.

for example a young teenager, might say

”like reallly… like no way like nooo way”…

”like nooo freaking way” 

“no freaking way…  OMG no waaay”

this seems hard to write and uncomfortable to read, but if you’re standing in line at grocery store, ease dropping on a phone conversation it might go exactly like that.
 
In the long and short of things I should have 

A. Listened better in English class (I’m not sure what words are verbs, nouns and especially not intransitive verbs.)

B.It’s really really hard to understand how hard it is to write a good story, until you try it, and then it’s even harder to actually write it. 
 

thanks for continuing the topic, I find it really interesting.

E

[Babypants]

11 minutes ago, Electrically said:

I’m not 100% sure of everything you guys said, but I get that the idea of adding life to people in your story. To be able to differentiate each character by what or how they say it. Hence you can get away with not using as many words explaining who said what. I find it very hard to do this even trying to picture myself in conversation, with whoever. It’s really hard to explain it in writing. 
You know another thing that I think, and this really messes with me, when I am trying to write I think I have to avoid a character saying the same thing, but in real life people repeat themselves constantly, and sometimes that adds character.

for example a young teenager, might say

”like reallly… like no way like nooo way”…

”like nooo freaking way” 

“no freaking way…  OMG no waaay”

this seems hard to write and uncomfortable to read, but if you’re standing in line at grocery store, ease dropping on a phone conversation it might go exactly like that.
 
In the long and short of things I should have 

A. Listened better in English class (I’m not sure what words are verbs, nouns and especially not intransitive verbs.)

B.It’s really really hard to understand how hard it is to write a good story, until you try it, and then it’s even harder to actually write it. 
 

thanks for continuing the topic, I find it really interesting.

E

To use your example of the young teenager:  when it comes to a choice between "correct" English and "incorrect," ALWAYS go with the needs of your character.  NEVER force your character to speak in a way that doesn't fit the personality profile that you are sculpting.  As a footnote, if your story is a period piece like the one that I am currently posting, you want to take care to get the slang right.  Language is a living thing, and slang is the cutting edge.  Words and phrases can go in and out of fashion very, very quickly.

As I have said many times in this forum, you need to demonstrate a mastery of grammar and syntax so that no one will question what you are doing when you jettison the rules.  For example, count the number of sentences that lack verbs in scene 8 of my Homage story.  Count the number of times that I have different characters swear, moan or groan in this chapter, or the number of "oh, shit" moments.  Introspection (which you should always put in italics) is a good place to practice this sort of thing, and if you are unsure, just end the thought with three dots, thus: 

Rats!  My first 'oh, shit' moment of the day ..."

This is the way your brain actually functions.  It is constantly processing information coming in from all of your senses, and the process is extremely messy.  So, have a go at writing an introspective paragraph that contains two unrelated thoughts, but don't do them as A-B but as A-A-B-A.  Jumble the thoughts, in short, rather than have them in sequence.  This will make your writing feel much more realistic. 

[Electrically]

1 minute ago, Babypants said:

To use your example of the young teenager:  when it comes to a choice between "correct" English and "incorrect," ALWAYS go with the needs of your character.  NEVER force your character to speak in a way that doesn't fit the personality profile that you are sculpting.  As a footnote, if your story is a period piece like the one that I am currently posting, you want to take care to get the slang right.  Language is a living thing, and slang is the cutting edge.  Words and phrases can go in and out of fashion very, very quickly.

As I have said many times in this forum, you need to demonstrate a mastery of grammar and syntax so that no one will question what you are doing when you jettison the rules.  For example, count the number of sentences that lack verbs in scene 8 of my Homage story.  Count the number of times that I have different characters swear, moan or groan in this chapter, or the number of "oh, shit" moments.  Introspection (which you should always put in italics) is a good place to practice this sort of thing, and if you are unsure, just end the thought with three dots, thus: 

Rats!  My first 'oh, shit' moment of the day ..."

This is the way your brain actually functions.  It is constantly processing information coming in from all of your senses, and the process is extremely messy.  So, have a go at writing an introspective paragraph that contains two unrelated thoughts, but don't do them as A-B but as A-A-B-A.  Jumble the thoughts, in short, rather than have them in sequence.  This will make your writing feel much more realistic. 

Ya that’s very true, people typically don’t stay on thoughts very long and often they come back to the original in the same conversation, it’s hard to write though, without being confusing. 
Another thing I have been trying to use, is explaining body language, people change very drastically when speaking, and often in a conversation can go from confidence, to angry, etc. and body language changes with it. 
However I find myself getting impatient with trying to find words to explain actions accurately. Which causes me to bail out of the explanations. But sometimes I don’t think of it as all that bad, does anyone really want to read dozens of descriptions of all that. 
I guess it’s kinda about balance. 
 

I however am no where near “a master of grammar”

But for whatever reason I find it extremely interesting. Being someone who deals with people constantly and enjoy watching them in conversation, finding ways to connect, make people laugh, annoy, etc.. is an interesting thing. 
 

[WBDaddy]

48 minutes ago, Electrically said:

”like reallly… like no way like nooo way”…

”like nooo freaking way” 

“no freaking way…  OMG no waaay”

If you look at the last thing I posted here - "Daddy's Dilemma" - there's decidedly tweener dialogue coming from the 11-year-old daughter.  Especially in the last chapter, where the nervousness is palpable and she leans in on "like" as a placeholder while she pounds out the words she doesn't want to say. 

Most people don't think as hard as writers do about avoiding repetition *in dialogue*.  

Outside the quotes, though, repetition is best avoided, though trying to avoid repetition by inventing all sorts of flowery ways to say "said" instead of using other ways to block your dialogue is really, really bad IMO.  

 

[Electrically]

3 minutes ago, WBDaddy said:

Outside the quotes,

So you’re saying that you can repeat inside the quotes 

Sometimes people will say several times in the same conversation as if to convince themselves or if they don’t think someone is listening.
Does this seem to get… I don’t know, annoying to read or maybe writer isn’t paying attention to what he already wrote? 
maybe repeating 3 times is better than 2. You know the saying.

10 minutes ago, WBDaddy said:

really bad IMO.  

I’m sorry what is IMO?

[WBDaddy]

Just now, Electrically said:

So you’re saying that you can repeat inside the quotes 

Yes, that's exactly what I said. 

1 minute ago, Electrically said:

Sometimes people will say several times in the same conversation as if to convince themselves or if they don’t think someone is listening.
Does this seem to get… I don’t know, annoying to read or maybe writer isn’t paying attention to what he already wrote? 

This comes down to how well you built the character in question.  If you established that this character tends to repeat themselves when under duress, then the reader is just nodding along going, "OK, they're a wreck right now, this must be pretty intense for them."

If you didn't establish this character's tendency to repeat themselves, then it's going to seem weird and people might assume you didn't proof yourself very well. 

[Electrically]

6 minutes ago, WBDaddy said:

Yes, that's exactly what I said. 

This comes down to how well you built the character in question.  If you established that this character tends to repeat themselves when under duress, then the reader is just nodding along going, "OK, they're a wreck right now, this must be pretty intense for them."

If you didn't establish this character's tendency to repeat themselves, then it's going to seem weird and people might assume you didn't proof yourself very well. 

So that where as baby pants put it demonstrate a mastery of grammar and syntax so that no onewill question 

 

[WBDaddy]

16 minutes ago, Electrically said:

So that where as baby pants put it demonstrate a mastery of grammar and syntax so that no onewill question 

Not even a mastery, just making sure that if you're going to have a character be a certain way, they should be that way consistently.  If you have a tweener, or even an adult who talks like a tweener, their speech patterns should be reliably tweener throughout the story, not just when it's convenient for them to be that way.  That's ironically the trap of trying so hard to avoid repetition in dialogue - you wind up with characters that don't have consistent voices. 

[Personalias]

9 hours ago, WBDaddy said:

Not even a mastery, just making sure that if you're going to have a character be a certain way, they should be that way consistently.  If you have a tweener, or even an adult who talks like a tweener, their speech patterns should be reliably tweener throughout the story, not just when it's convenient for them to be that way.  That's ironically the trap of trying so hard to avoid repetition in dialogue - you wind up with characters that don't have consistent voices. 

I love this insight!  It's so true.

It's cheesy and cliche, but for dialogue, sometimes I like to give characters dialogue reset quirks.  Shorthand tricks that cue the audience in to who is speaking even if you don't say who is talking.  

Cheap Plug: In my story, Unfair, I make deliberate efforts to do this with several characters.

Clark: When bitter and angry, his inner monologue is punctuated with "Typical".  Like it's a condemnation.

Amy: Opens almost every scene she's in by yelling "HI CLARK" And then talking in long rambling sentences like she's turned off her filter or she's waited the intervening weeks to share every random thought she's had since they last met..  Amy info dumps.  Hard.  

Billy: Billy constantly calls the main character, Clark,  "Gibson", Clark's last name.  Almost never calls him Clark, even refers to him as "Gibson" to his peers.

***************************************************************************************************************************************************
Stephen King also does this, too with many of his characters.

Many of his characters in Dark Tower have unique ways of speaking.  Roland has strange medieval cowboy dialect. Says "ken" instead of "understand" says "palaver" instead of "huddle up and talk".  Calls people by the honorific "Sai"  and talks of "Ka"  (Made up lingo for the setting.  Sai is a gender neutral honorific.  Ka is like a concept that is both God and Fate) 

Susanna, a black woman, is written with a slight southern accent (because of where she lives) and when she flips to an alternate personality "Odetta", she goes well...a parody verging on black face. (NOTE: King does NOT excel in writing minority characters; but for this character in particular, the alternate personality and her dialogue is coming from a place of trauma...it's not portrayed as natural or who she "really" is, it's a mental illness response) buuuut, speaking of that it is STILL Distinct.

In The Stand, there is an intellectually disabled character who spells everything "moon", and it's a kind of verbal tic and punctuation that something is important to what he's thinking about.  Like if things are really bad, he'd be like.  "This is bad. Really bad.  M-O-O-N, that spells bad."
********************************************************************************************************************************************
Animorphs.  This is a masterclass in dialogue ticks.

Marco- Everything is "insane".

Rachel-  If she say "Let's do it", before a mission, balls are about to be to walls, and shit is about to hit the fan

Ax-Ax is a semi-telepathic alien. It's not an "Ax scene" if he's not playing with human mouth sounds, referring to Jake as "prince jake", or measuring time by "your minutes".  Aka.  "We have only 15 of your minutes left before we have to demorph".  With Jake of course saying "Don't call me Prince"  and also  "They're not our minutes, they're everyone's minutes."

Visser Three:  Visser Three is a classic 90's kid's villain.  You KNOW he's talking as soon as you read.   "Well, well, well..."  

Correction:  <Well, well, well...>  This is the book's visual language for someone speaking telepathically.  Also his insistence on calling the Animorphs the <Andalite Bandits>.  Don't worry about what that means, but he's the only person in the series that reliably calls them that.

Speaking of which...

****************************************************************************************************************************************
Dragon Ball Z-  You can count on one hand how many times, Vegeta calls Goku, "Goku", and that's only when he's sure people won't know who he's talking about otherwise.

Because literally every other time, he calls our protagonist "Kakarot". 
************************************************************************************************************************************
On Rick & Morty

Rick's most commonly said word is "Morty"

Morty's most commonly said words are "Aw geez, Rick."

This is because the voice actor made those his reset words to stay in character and keep the proper voice whenever he's riffing and improvising.

But you to date, you can't do a proper Rick & Morty impression without  doing a big fake belch and going "Morty" or pitching your voice up and going "Awww geez Rick"
************************************************************************************************************************
Simpsons is almost nothing but catch phrases and verbal ticks
**********************************************************************************************************
Star Trek: TNG

Data does not use contractions when speaking.  (There have been slips from writers before it became canon).  But it became such a notable part of his dialogue that after a certain point if he does use contractions, the crew know something is off.  Usually "That's not really Data".
******************************************************************************************************************

TLDR:  Don't be afraid to write your characters in such a way that people could do impressions of them just by citing their dialogue.
 

[Olympiczero]

I am really thankful for all the writing tips the more experienced writers include here. I check routinely, and though commit plenty of faults in my own story, do my very best to keep these in mind while writing to improve my own narrative. Thank you all very much. 

[Babypants]

11 hours ago, WBDaddy said:

If you look at the last thing I posted here - "Daddy's Dilemma" - there's decidedly tweener dialogue coming from the 11-year-old daughter.  Especially in the last chapter, where the nervousness is palpable and she leans in on "like" as a placeholder while she pounds out the words she doesn't want to say. 

Most people don't think as hard as writers do about avoiding repetition *in dialogue*.  

Outside the quotes, though, repetition is best avoided, though trying to avoid repetition by inventing all sorts of flowery ways to say "said" instead of using other ways to block your dialogue is really, really bad IMO.  

 

I generally go the other way with variations on "said" because I view the substitutes as flavoring particles.  In any event, it's the comma that causes ebb in a text, and its absence that causes flow.  So, an action sequence is typically written in shorter sentences with minimal punctuation, while a stage setting paragraph will be longer, with a great deal more punctuation.  

11 hours ago, WBDaddy said:

Not even a mastery, just making sure that if you're going to have a character be a certain way, they should be that way consistently.  If you have a tweener, or even an adult who talks like a tweener, their speech patterns should be reliably tweener throughout the story, not just when it's convenient for them to be that way.  That's ironically the trap of trying so hard to avoid repetition in dialogue - you wind up with characters that don't have consistent voices. 

As a general rule, this is dead on.  But there are exceptions.  I know quite a few people who are one thing when they are sober, and quite another when they've had a few drinks.  Stress can also yield dramatic shifts in behavior, etc., etc.  So I would say that if you put your character in different situations to which a generic human being would respond with different behaviors, don't turn her/him into a robot but go with what common sense dictates you should do when writing the scene.