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Brutish Spanking punishment


1950potty

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From a different thread on "Rubber Diapers" I came across a statement about rubber lined diapers " They were used mostly on girls to provide a form of punishment/chastizement that was an alternative to hitting her as that was considered to brutish to do to a girl."   It seemed they were talking about somewhere in time from 1940 to 1980.  I'm in my seventies and at least in the south and midwest where I lived during those years not too many people hesitated to spanking girls.  In the sixties I remembered a teen age girl friend being nervous about not getting home on time from ha date and getting the strap.  And that was not unique.  And during preteen years I would say close to, if not 100% of the girls I knew were spanked.  One friend of mine said her father switched her when she was in college.

So I guess my question is  were there other areas where "hitting her as that was considered to brutish to do to a girl."?

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Urbanized, suburban and some of the less rurual areas of New England with Boston as the Intellectual Capital therof and some areas of the Mid-Atlantic states where cities predominated

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I was born in Southern California in July 1964. I have an older sister and brother, a younger brother and two younger sisters. My parents were anti-spanking, although my maternal Granny Vi, who lived next door, was very much pro-spanking. In our neighborhood I did not know anyone who got spanked.

Then in 1976 we moved to Iowa for a year. There every kid I met was spanked routinely, girls and boys, with such implements as straps, paddles, switches and hairbrushes. I was the only one of my 5 siblings not paddled at school. My older sister had turned 17 while we were driving to Iowa. She had never been spanked and got paddled at least 4 times during that year while a high school senior.

While we were in Iowa my Mom's youngest sister Aunt Betsy and her husband bought the house across the street from Granny Vi and our house. It came as a shock to me that Aunt Betsy was even more pro-spanking than Granny Vi. Her oldest kid (Cousin Carole) was 7 in 1977. A few days after we got home I was visiting Aunt Betsy when she put Carole over her lap, lowered her panties and blistered Carole with a hairbrush. Over the next several months I saw Betsy spank Carole and Cousin Matt many times, always bare-bottom with a hairbrush. My oldest sister Penny was by then 18. She was Aunt Betsy's primary babysitter and told me she also often spanked Carole and Matt. Later I found out Aunt Betsy sometimes spanked Penny just like her kids. Penny admitted that the hairbrush was not as bad as a school paddling over her clothes.

I did my best to avoid getting spanked, but the week before I turned 14 Aunt Betsy caught me out way after my curfew. She gave me the choice of getting a spanking from her or being reported to my parents. Maybe I was curious. I hung my head and accepted the spanking. That time Betsy only used her hand as she did with her 2 yo son Nate. Her hand hurt, but to me it was very embarrassing to be spanked like a baby, not like a teen gal who was allowed to wear lipstick and high heels. I cried while getting that first spanking and also wet. Before sending me home Betsy pinned me into a gauze diaper. For some reason Betsy had a pair of vinyl panties which fit me. She must have known that I had reverted to wetting at puberty so I wore gauze diapers and vinyl panties to bed, as did Penny.

About a week later I felt guilty enough I went across the street and told Aunt Betsy I deserved a spanking, asking for the hairbrush instead of her hand. Betsy used an underpad to protect her lap and spanked me with her hairbrush until I was limp and sobbing like a baby. Carole and Matt were watching. I was still crying when Betsy diapered me. She phoned Penny to look after her kids. Then Betsy drove me to a store where she bought me a hairbrush identical to hers, saying she had also bought one for Penny. After that a couple of times a month I would carry my hairbrush and a pair of my vinyl panties across the street to be spanked by Aunt Betsy and a few times by Penny.

Finally the week before I turned 15 in 1979 I was shocked when my Mom came into the bedroom I shared with my youngest sister. I was told to bring her my hairbrush and remove my cotton panties. Mom sat on a chair, spread an underpad and really blistered me with my hairbrush. That hurt more than spankings from Betsy or Penny. That summer I worked at a law office, so I wore lipstick and high heels daily. Mom found some reason to spank me at least once a week, always very hard. Usually some of my siblings watched, but I also saw Mom spank them when I was home.

Nearly a month after I graduated from high school in 1981 I turned 17. Mom was still spanking me weekly. I was scheduled to fly back East to start university that August. Mom even gave me a hard spanking the night before my flight and made sure I packed my hairbrush as a reminder.

Who knows? What if Mom had started spanking all of us when we were toddlers? Would I have needed all those spankings when I was a high school senior?

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Your Iowa experience is parallel to my childhood in the 1950s & 60s.  I saw more than a few spankings at neighbors and relatives houses.  I played with the neighbor boys all the time.  If there was a problem ,you would be sent home.  And if you were told to tell your mother you had misbehaved you could count on a spanking.  And you had better not "forget" to mention that.  The mothers would often talk and if you "forgot" you would get it double. One day the mother entered into an agreement.  If we were at the other's house, that mother would punish all of those involved.  At my house it was usually the paddle and next door it was normally the strap.  But I was glad that my mom hadn't agreed with the neighbor on the other side.  She had a little whip and while the paddle and strap were bad I certainly didn't want to find get spanked by her.  And if you had some welts on your butt, no one would have thought to call the cops.

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Hi 1950potty, what a perfect name for DD!

Although spanking children and teens certainly was not as universal in my community in SoCal compared to Iowa, nobody ever reported obvious spanking marks on us, even when I was a high school senior! In Iowa nobody snickered while we changed during PE, but I did get a little teasing back in California.

I seldom played at the homes of schoolmates, so agreements between mothers did not include me. However, my youngest sister Missy told me that when her daughter, born in 1990, Karen was 3yo there was an agreement within their babysitting cooperative that any parent could spank any misbehaving kid. Karen told me, when she was 12, that she got more and harder spankings from the other mothers. Such agreements make good sense to me.

No photos were ever taken of me after spankings when I was a teen. Of course as soon as possible after my first several spankings I did use a mirror to inspect my marks. The photo I shared was taken in mid-June 1991 before I turned 27. I had fallen in love with Don in early May. A week later I told Don that I knew I could be a brat and that I wanted him to spank me for real whenever he felt I needed to be punished. Things went well for about a month until the night Don took me to his favorite restaurant. I'd had a horrible day in court where a strict judge yelled at me. My mistake was taking out my frustration on our waiter. Don yanked me to my feet, signed the check and frog-marched me to his car. Back at his house the told me to strip bare. I stood there shivering until he handed me the AB shirt. Yes, he knew all about my bladder problems! Don used an underpad when he took me across his lap. He only used his firm right hand to spank while scolding me. I was defiant enough to hold off crying until my bottom was on fire. I had to be helped to a corner. The pad I was standing on is not shown. I was still sniffling 10 minutes later when Don took that photo. We have a 16x20 inch enlargement of that photo in my AB nursery. Don tore just my red derrière portion from another copy of the photo which was encased in plastic. I always have that in my purse as a reminder. I shared the photo because that was how my rump looked after Aunt Betsy spanked me the first time.

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  • 2 months later...

That whole idea of discipline this way is just really foreign to me. My dad spend most of his time working so I was raised almost exclusively by my mom. She treated rearing as really a skill and she was not afraid to be firm and punish us though she was against corporal punishment. However she treated bratty kids more as a sign of incompetence by the parents than softness. Spanking is the same as she treated it as lazy parenting. Something you use because you are not willing to put in the effort to understand it better. My mom felt that if you had to resort to spankings it meant you already failed somewhere earlier down the line. When I asked her about it she did say she would respect other parents who felt differently but she prided herself that she could keep everyone under control without needing to do that.

Everyone always talks about spankings but that is not the only rearing technique available. I think you should have different consequences for different things. For example making a mess means cleaning it up. If for some reason the child is truly not able to clean their mess up then they need to be given a chore that demands a roughly equal amount of labor. Not playing nicely is best dealt with, with a time-out while they are looking at the others having fun. A technique my mom used for mandatory chores was to have 2 chores in our free days, a big one and a small one. If we whined and complained about the chore it's value would be halved and if we did the chore out of our own initiative it counted as double. So if we did our small chore ourselves we only needed to do another small chore instead of a large one. However if we whined about it then we needed to do another tiny chore as well. Equally so with the large chore, if we whined we needed to do another small one while if we did it ourselves we could skip the small chore altogether. Also mom would make it very clear how much time we wasted whining and also name up several things we could have been doing during that time instead. If we had done something bad that our mom couldn't think up a reason for then she wouldn't do anything until she understood why. She could push pretty hard but she would get our reasoning out of us one way or another. Usually when she did our reasoning was pretty stupid and she would really point that out to us. However in those sessions the emphasis was on the reasoning. We were also allowed to talk back if we did so in a calm manner and what we said made sense. She would listen to backtalk but she wouldn't listen to whining.

Punishments are mere a reinforcement to get the kids to pay attention. They shouldn't be the end goal. Punishments with me were very rare. Only when we refused to listen. I remember her also being very transparent in her rearing techniques. Often explaining them to us. After all if we had to explain our actions it was only fair she would have to do so as well.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 3/14/2019 at 5:15 AM, marinus18 said:

That whole idea of discipline this way is just really foreign to me...

Punishments are mere a reinforcement to get the kids to pay attention. They shouldn't be the end goal. Punishments with me were very rare. Only when we refused to listen. I remember her also being very transparent in her rearing techniques. Often explaining them to us. After all if we had to explain our actions it was only fair she would have to do so as well.

Oh to be so young. Back in the old days corporal punishment was pretty common. We got it at home and at school. And sometimes at home because we got it at school. Was it better than todays philosophy that seems to rely on negotiations and reasoning? It was probably cruel and had some bad psychologic impacts. But it was probably effective too. I remember sitting in large classes of maybe 35 to 40 other students at school and you could hear a pin drop in the classroom after the teacher called "Class." Being sent for a reckoning in the principals office was something we avoided after learning the consequences the hard way. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 4/10/2019 at 10:20 PM, rubbersheetmike said:

Oh to be so young. Back in the old days corporal punishment was pretty common. We got it at home and at school. And sometimes at home because we got it at school. Was it better than todays philosophy that seems to rely on negotiations and reasoning? It was probably cruel and had some bad psychologic impacts. But it was probably effective too. I remember sitting in large classes of maybe 35 to 40 other students at school and you could hear a pin drop in the classroom after the teacher called "Class." Being sent for a reckoning in the principals office was something we avoided after learning the consequences the hard way

Well my point more is that it all seems to be so all or nothing. Either it's corporal punishment or no discipline whatsoever. I was punished when I truly refused to listen and obey her but those instances were very rare. Usually when I was whining about chores the threat of it's value being halved was enough for me. When I did keep trying to get out of it the reminder mom would give about all the fun things I could have been doing usually made me do the chore. After all it was clear she wasn't going to give up and that whining only made things worse. I usually wanted to do something fun and so mom saying all the fun things I already ruined was a strong motivator. It also not strictly negotiating, my mom was also perfectly capable of being unmovable and if she felt we did earn a punishment she would do it.

It's not just that though, it's also region. My parents didn't suffer corporal punishment either. Of all my grandparents only my paternal grandma did and it only was one teacher who did it like 3 times that she can remember.

 

Also I don't remember anyone ever going to the principal for discipline. The deans did all that, the principle rarely directly interacted with the students. I don't know how it's organised in America but here the students are all organised into classes led by a teacher known as a mentor. Each class has a code which is based on the year like class 5E or something. All classes of one year are part of a wing headed by a dean who coordinates the mentors, decides things like trips and large projects. They also talked with all the students on how things went and how well they are on track for the year. In discipline if the teacher couldn't do it you were sent to the dean. The principle usually only came into play when permanent expulsion was considered which the deans can't legally do. Only the principle of the school can expel students and if things went so far that the dean would ask the principle almost always said "yes". The principle usually was busy full time managing the school, making up lessons plans. Denying or approving the plans of the deans, managing the budget, filling out legal documents, solving all kinds of problems that come up, keeping an eye on performances and anything else that came up. They usually didn't even interact much with the teachers as they usually they talked to the deans who then in turn coordinated with the teachers. Being a principle of a school is pretty much the same as being director of a company. Company directors also don't have much direct involvement with the workers, they have subordinates who handled that for them.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/16/2019 at 7:39 AM, marinus18 said:

Well my point more is that it all seems to be so all or nothing. Either it's corporal punishment or no discipline whatsoever. I was punished when I truly refused to listen and obey her but those instances were very rare. Usually when I was whining about chores the threat of it's value being halved was enough for me. When I did keep trying to get out of it the reminder mom would give about all the fun things I could have been doing usually made me do the chore. After all it was clear she wasn't going to give up and that whining only made things worse. I usually wanted to do something fun and so mom saying all the fun things I already ruined was a strong motivator. It also not strictly negotiating, my mom was also perfectly capable of being unmovable and if she felt we did earn a punishment she would do it.

Also I don't remember anyone ever going to the principal for discipline. The deans did all that, the principle rarely directly interacted with the students. I don't know how it's organised in America but here the students are all organised into classes led by a teacher known as a mentor. Being a principle of a school is pretty much the same as being director of a company. Company directors also don't have much direct involvement with the workers, they have subordinates who handled that for them.

My point is mainly that until the last four decades corporal punishment was more common and accepted than today both at home and at school. There was a "spare the rod, spoil the child" attitude that a lot of parents and schools seemed to agree with. Now corporal punishment is mainly banned at least where I live. I think the courts allow light parental corporal punishment but only to a certain point. I think a lot of younger people cant really understand the old culture because they never experienced it in any way. 

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I agree about not understanding because of lack of experience.  Centuries ago, they believed in blood letting to rid the body of bad humors.  It is difficult for us to comprehend this procedure.  My great grandmother was the kindest, sweetest person I ever knew.  But there were family stories of her whipping her kids with a switch.  She was trying to do what was best for her children, as she thought was right.

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Corporal punishment is at best a sign of incompetent parenting and at worst a sign of a cruel, simple mind.

There’s a field of psychology called Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA)  that came into being mainly to help parents manage behaviors with kids who are developmentally disabled. It’s somewhat controversial because it’s seen by some as manipulative, but all it is is a process of recognizing why a behavior occurs, finding a behavior to replace it, and implementing the right reinforcements and punishments to get the child to adopt the better behavior. 

In the parlance of this field, a punishment is something done to reduce the frequency of a bad behavior while a reinforcement is something done to increase the frequency of a good behavior. They go together as you should never try to reduce a bad behavior without replacing it with a good one that serves the same purpose.

“Positive” means the punishment or reinforcement is facilitated by adding something, while “negative” means something is taken away. A spanking is a positive punishment (an unpleasant experience added to decrease a behavior).

Study after study after study has shown the most effective means of modifying behavior is positive reinforcement, meaning doing things to make a positive behavior more common, thereby decreasing the undesirable bad behavior.

If anyone thinks this is ridiculous, that you can’t reason with young children, that this is soft parenting, let me tell you the truth: THIS IS INCREDIBLY HARD and works on kids who LITERALLY cannot reason.

Severe autism spectrum disorder, with behaviors like fecal smearing, is treated with Applied Behavior Analysis, successfully. If it can work on a kid who has those challenges, it can damn sure get the average kid to do their homework and not hit their sister.

Most people don’t know about this field or its principles or how to do it, but the real challenge with implementing ABA is that it is harder, time consuming, more labor intensive, and doesn’t have the emotional satisfaction a parent gets from immediate-term fixes like grounding and especially spanking. 

To all those who think parents who don’t spank are soft and taking the easy way out, you have it 100% backwards. The easy way out is resorting to violence. It’s immoral, unhealthy, weak minded, and just shows a parent to be lazy, unthinking, ruled by their emotions, and retrograde. And to rise parents who say spanking in their house is done calmly and ritually, I say that makes it even more sick.

”My parents did it to me, and I turned out fine” has to be the dumbest, most nonsensical, willfully ignorant, weak minded and lazy reasoning ever!

The fact that there is only one population that it is permissible to hit and that that population is children is sickening. Utterly sickening. It’s a violation of personal sovereignty and bodily autonomy perpetrated against a group that can not defend itself. 

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I guess we need to think of the topic and not diverge.  And I was guilty of diverting also.  But this was aimed at '''did you know of girl's being punished in different ways from boys?"

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/25/2019 at 3:32 AM, rubbersheetmike said:

My point is mainly that until the last four decades corporal punishment was more common and accepted than today both at home and at school. There was a "spare the rod, spoil the child" attitude that a lot of parents and schools seemed to agree with. Now corporal punishment is mainly banned at least where I live. I think the courts allow light parental corporal punishment but only to a certain point. I think a lot of younger people cant really understand the old culture because they never experienced it in any way. 

Where I live corporal punishment was out of practice for a very long time. I know my grandmother never was spanked. She was taught in a monastery and they were VERY strict there. But they didn't use corporal punishment.

 

On 5/25/2019 at 2:26 PM, 1950potty said:

I agree about not understanding because of lack of experience.  Centuries ago, they believed in blood letting to rid the body of bad humors.  It is difficult for us to comprehend this procedure.  My great grandmother was the kindest, sweetest person I ever knew.  But there were family stories of her whipping her kids with a switch.  She was trying to do what was best for her children, as she thought was right.

I think it's more because of time. Spankings are a very time efficient way of discipline. Before families were much larger with 5 or 6 being very common. Mothers also had to do all the chores like washing, making food, doing dishes, cleaning the house and everything by hand. They didn't have time to go into lengthy talks. Now families of 4 are already considered big and tech like washing machines, microwave ovens, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners and other things have drastically cut down the time needed. In addition to that most people are also on average richer nowadays so if a child breaks something it can usually be replaced and they have the time to deal with things. Before when people had much less time and money they needed to maintain far more of a tight grip on their children because they couldn't afford mishaps. Also many things were passed down from one generation to the next and so had a lot of sentimental value and were irreplaceable. Today many people buy cheap things and even things costing several hundred dollars are usually replaced within a decade.

On 5/25/2019 at 2:56 PM, Author_Alex said:

Corporal punishment is at best a sign of incompetent parenting and at worst a sign of a cruel, simple mind.

There’s a field of psychology called Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA)  that came into being mainly to help parents manage behaviors with kids who are developmentally disabled. It’s somewhat controversial because it’s seen by some as manipulative, but all it is is a process of recognizing why a behavior occurs, finding a behavior to replace it, and implementing the right reinforcements and punishments to get the child to adopt the better behavior. 

In the parlance of this field, a punishment is something done to reduce the frequency of a bad behavior while a reinforcement is something done to increase the frequency of a good behavior. They go together as you should never try to reduce a bad behavior without replacing it with a good one that serves the same purpose.

“Positive” means the punishment or reinforcement is facilitated by adding something, while “negative” means something is taken away. A spanking is a positive punishment (an unpleasant experience added to decrease a behavior).

Study after study after study has shown the most effective means of modifying behavior is positive reinforcement, meaning doing things to make a positive behavior more common, thereby decreasing the undesirable bad behavior.

If anyone thinks this is ridiculous, that you can’t reason with young children, that this is soft parenting, let me tell you the truth: THIS IS INCREDIBLY HARD and works on kids who LITERALLY cannot reason.

Severe autism spectrum disorder, with behaviors like fecal smearing, is treated with Applied Behavior Analysis, successfully. If it can work on a kid who has those challenges, it can damn sure get the average kid to do their homework and not hit their sister.

Most people don’t know about this field or its principles or how to do it, but the real challenge with implementing ABA is that it is harder, time consuming, more labor intensive, and doesn’t have the emotional satisfaction a parent gets from immediate-term fixes like grounding and especially spanking. 

To all those who think parents who don’t spank are soft and taking the easy way out, you have it 100% backwards. The easy way out is resorting to violence. It’s immoral, unhealthy, weak minded, and just shows a parent to be lazy, unthinking, ruled by their emotions, and retrograde. And to rise parents who say spanking in their house is done calmly and ritually, I say that makes it even more sick.

”My parents did it to me, and I turned out fine” has to be the dumbest, most nonsensical, willfully ignorant, weak minded and lazy reasoning ever!

The fact that there is only one population that it is permissible to hit and that that population is children is sickening. Utterly sickening. It’s a violation of personal sovereignty and bodily autonomy perpetrated against a group that can not defend itself. 

Interesting. I always thought spanking was a negative form of discipline because it is making clear what the child should NOT do. That positive discipline is giving them rewards, to make sure they will do certain things.

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