Do you like where this is going?

[rosalie.bent]

On 10/12/2018 at 9:55 PM, Elfy said:

This isn't mainstream and it isn't going to be any time soon (read: ever)... And please don't put ABDL in the same bracket as LGBT.

Why not? LGBT are essentially minority 'identities and for most, ABDL is also a sub-identity.

While ABDL is different to LGB, so is T. They are different identities or sub-identities and I think it would not be unreasonable for ABDL to get its own 'letter' in the growing pantheon of letter groupings. after all if 'questioning' is considered worthy of a letter, why isnt ABDL?

 

On 10/15/2018 at 2:26 AM, vampire4 said:

I think you might be picking apart the wording just a bit. Being AB/DL isn't a choice either. But to outsiders.....it's seen as a lifestyle. An alternative lifestyle. Not saying it's right but.....I mean here we are in the Our Lifestyle area.

 

Most people who are different don't choose to be that way, we just are. No one is trying to claim that being AB/DL is as hard as being gay.

ABDL is not a choice. A few people might chose diapers and after a while dump them, but ABDL is something people develop as preschoolers and live with all their lives to a varying degree. It can become a lifestyle, but it is not at its core a lifestyle choice.

[Elfy]

2 hours ago, rosalie.bent said:

Why not? LGBT are essentially minority 'identities and for most, ABDL is also a sub-identity.

While ABDL is different to LGB, so is T. They are different identities or sub-identities and I think it would not be unreasonable for ABDL to get its own 'letter' in the growing pantheon of letter groupings. after all if 'questioning' is considered worthy of a letter, why isnt ABDL?

This is well trodden ground but the essential difference is that this is a fetish, whether sexual or not, and being LGBT is not a fetish.

[rosalie.bent]

8 minutes ago, Elfy said:

This is well trodden ground but the essential difference is that this is a fetish, whether sexual or not, and being LGBT is not a fetish.

and ABDL is NOT a fetish either. It is built up on regression that has its roots at the preschool age level. Around puberty sexual attribute may or may not be added thus adding something of a fetish component, but it is NOT primarily a fetish nor does it start as such. It does for many people form a significant part of their IDENTITY, thus not making it as different to LGBT as you suppose.

[Elfy]

I don't want to get into this argument yet again but I will say ABDL's aren't special... There are many different groups who could say the same as you said. Furries, cross dressers, transformation and a thousand other things. It isn't always sexual for them either and in many cases they trace these desires back to things from their childhood. If you're going to be that vague you are going to have everyone under the LGBT umbrella for one reason or another.

I'll add a personal aspect... LGBT's had to and continue to suffer to be where we are. In many places there is still a long way to go and in some places things are going backwards. In my opinion LGBT is a badge anyone who falls under these categories should wear with honour. Until I see ABDL's being imprisoned, sectioned, chemically castrated, killed and tortured they don't deserve to be in that category. I find it galling, almost offensive, when people try to jump on the wagon with their kinks and attempt to say they belong there. This is just an opinion of mine and probably doesn't reflect others in the LGBT community. It's why I can get heated when this subject comes up... My internal monologue is saying "How dare you compare the suffering LGBT people have gone through with ABDL's... It isn't in the same league..."

[rosalie.bent]

21 minutes ago, Elfy said:

I don't want to get into this argument yet again but I will say ABDL's aren't special... There are many different groups who could say the same as you said. Furries, cross dressers, transformation and a thousand other things. It isn't always sexual for them either and in many cases they trace these desires back to things from their childhood. If you're going to be that vague you are going to have everyone under the LGBT umbrella for one reason or another.

I'll add a personal aspect... LGBT's had to and continue to suffer to be where we are. In many places there is still a long way to go and in some places things are going backwards. In my opinion LGBT is a badge anyone who falls under these categories should wear with honour. Until I see ABDL's being imprisoned, sectioned, chemically castrated, killed and tortured they don't deserve to be in that category. I find it galling, almost offensive, when people try to jump on the wagon with their kinks and attempt to say they belong there. This is just an opinion of mine and probably doesn't reflect others in the LGBT community. It's why I can get heated when this subject comes up... My internal monologue is saying "How dare you compare the suffering LGBT people have gone through with ABDL's... It isn't in the same league..."

No one is saying that LGBT's havent been treated badly and I for one fully accept them. But as a counter-argument to my position, it is a pretty worthless one.

I claim that ABDL can for some people become a legitimate part of their identity. And unless you missed the news over the years, an ABDL in prominant position who is outed suffers greatly in their careers. And how many ABDLs have been crucified in divorce and custody disputes?

The ONLY protection that ABDLs have against a pretty nasty general community is anonymity. As part of a community that is considered to be pedos by the large majority of ignorant society, you can hardly claim that ABDLs exist without strife.

"How dare you compare the suffering LGBT people have gone through with ABDL's... It isn't in the same league..."

 

That would be a fair criticism if I'd actually said that. Please dont misquote me.

[Elfy]

That is why I said it was a personal opinion and not one I expect many other LGBT people to automatically agree with, the first paragraph (the one you ignored) was my reply to your previous post. The second paragraph was a general opinion I was giving about how detestable it is to have the two groups compared as if ABDL's are special and not just one of a thousand different kink communities. Maybe I just lack the ego to think I'm special just because ABDL.

I'm just explaining why what you say is so offensive to me. An ABDL being indiscreet and a few vindictive ex-wives does not equal persecution. I don't claim they exist without strife but it is utterly incomparable. Maybe I have missed the news though... Which ABDLs in prominent positions have been fired for being ABDL?

 

[rosalie.bent]

8 minutes ago, Elfy said:

That is why I said it was a personal opinion and not one I expect many other LGBT people to automatically agree with, the first paragraph (the one you ignored) was my reply to your previous post. The second paragraph was a general opinion I was giving about how detestable it is to have the two groups compared as if ABDL's are special and not just one of a thousand different kink communities. Maybe I just lack the ego to think I'm special just because ABDL.

I'm just explaining why what you say is so offensive to me. An ABDL being indiscreet and a few vindictive ex-wives does not equal persecution. I don't claim they exist without strife but it is utterly incomparable. Maybe I have missed the news though... Which ABDLs in prominent positions have been fired for being ABDL?

 

You might not think that way if it were YOU being denied any custody of your children because you wore diapers. And these stories are legion. Senator Vittner??? Never head of him? And there are stories of people losing jobs in daycare centres because they are ABDL and went public about it. And plenty others that dont get media attention.

Why do you think that the vast majority of ABDLs are anonymous or keep it very very close?  

LGBT is a collection of minority IDENTITIES. ABDL is also for some an identity. You dont have to like it for it to be true. Nor am I creating some kind of equivalency nor was I attempting to. I can see that the mere topic triggers you badly, but to be honest, you need to learn to react better than that. No one was attacking LGBT. No one was implying a false equivalency. if you want to know why some people in the community get so sick of LGBT issues being continually pushed in their faces, it is attitudes like yours. It is not enough to support LGBT. You have to subscribe to all the hand-wringing and nonsense that goes with it.

I support LGBT. I even publish LGBT fiction, but no... that is never enough. Stop being perpetually OFFENDED every time someone says  - accidentally or deliberately - something you disagree with.

[Elfy]

44 minutes ago, rosalie.bent said:

"How dare you compare the suffering LGBT people have gone through with ABDL's... It isn't in the same league..."

 

That would be a fair criticism if I'd actually said that. Please dont misquote me.

I didn't quote you. I wrote that is my internal monologue. That means it's what I think when you speak.

I think the vast majority of ABDL's are anonymous for the same reason most people into any kink are anonymous... They see no need to be self-important and expose their kink to a public that doesn't care. Not to mention most people don't let this area of their life dominate things to the point where they feel some bizarre need to be accepted or noticed by others.

I looked up Senator Vittner since I hadn't heard of him (I live in the UK so it was easy to miss) but having looked at his wiki page and a few other links it seems he got in trouble for hiring a prostitute, I didn't see anything about diapers. FOr divorces and people fired that don't make the news, I couldn't possibly comment on it... Likewise, neither can you. It may or may not be happening. For someone who talks about their research into the topic a lot I'm surprised you would be talking about examples that may or may not exist.

Finally, your entire argument is the false equivalency between ABDL and LGBT. I'm not perpetually offended, I'm offended when others try to hijack something for their own gain when people had to suffer so much to get here... I guess you could compare it to "stolen valour". There's a movement of pedofiles that also want to be included under the LGBT banner and a lot of their arguments are disturbingly similar to yours.

LGBT is about gender and sexuality. Being ABDL is neither and I for one don't welcome any sub-group that wants to grab on to the wagon to try and get dragged along.

As for the right wing nonsense at the end of your post. I see your putting me into the classic "SJW" group that people who can't handle another opinion tend to go to these days. I believe it was you accusing others of the same thing in the thread about underage sex in stories. It's very lazy to just play that card despite me answering your points. Sure I wrote that that I'm offended but that doesn't mean I'm offended by everything!

It does show that you don't really understand what it is to be LGBT though... Perhaps if you did you would understand why subjects such as this gets under peoples skin.

[Lyra]

Oh lordy lord the straights are at it again.

Okay over age children let's talk about why being gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual or asexual are not "identities or lifestyles". Now sex and reproduction are on of the corner stones of life, in fact waaaay back in science class you might have been taught the four things that all living things do, eat, shit, fuck and die, the lucky ones even get to do these at different times. So deciding what we want to fuck became fairly important part of our coding. Now the jury is still out on why some people experience attraction to one, multiple or no genders but it's ingrained into every human action. You notice an attractive member of your preferred gender on the street, how you present yourself, even how decorate your home all have connotations and suggestions for the kind of person and relationship you want.  Now I hear you babble, but I dress cutesy, I have a nursery etc etc that is just to attract a particular flavour of mate, be it strict Domme Mommy, the Teddy bear Daddy or the adorable little one. Your primary attraction is still to that particular gender(s) not where they decided to excrete their waste. That's all a fetish is in it's healthy forms, no different than liking big titted blondes or amputees. Unless your primary sexual attraction is to a used diaper, in which case we're dealing with a sexual dysfunction issue and that's not what we're here to rant about.

Not that it doesn't have it's side psychological benefits, we all take comfort in the control or lack there of this fetish gives, that is why it can be nonsexual for some people. It can help repair old abuse, act as a stress valve but here's the big dirty secret, and I'm not talking about Elfy's nappy pail here, ANYTHING CAN DO THAT! Any activity can help deal with psychological pain, any hobby can bring you comfort and a sense of safety. For some people pooping their pants works the best, but it's not special for that. I know furries who find their fursonas lives just as comforting as any fantasy of your nursery. I have a friend who's hardcore BDSM and edge play helped her get over a rape. Hell my own mother, used gardening to get over the loss of her father. Our loves and our passions can bring joy and heal our lives, and that's what an "alternative lifestyle" is but it's not our sexuality, it's not our life, it's not our identity. To make it the one main focus of yourself is unhealthy.

Now the whys and wherefores of why certain activities appeal to us is as varied and useless as any nature verses nature debate, it's always going to be a little of column A and little of column B. Maybe I like repairing old technology because it reminds me of my childhood taking apart clocks for fun, and maybe it's because my sight is only good close up, it doesn't matter it brings me joy, a sense of accomplishment and that special spark of creation. But there's no need to obsess over why I like it, or sit all my family down and solemnly say "Mum I'm a tinker" nor should I try to get tinkers special protections from imagined bigotry. Because in case anyone has forgotten that's what the whole LGBTQ thing is all about, to help a marginalised groups of people who need protection from bigotry and hate in the world. I don't need protection or recognition because my girlfriend has an adorable padded rear, I need it because last time I tried to use a public restroom I was assaulted so let's keep things in perspective here.

Also to come back to the point this thread was created to talk about, no I don't think ABDL stuff is becoming mainstream, global economics are now in such away that a small wide spread community can support a variety of businesses, it's no longer completely insane to order from a company in Australia and get receive it in the UK. Also there have always been brick and mortar sex shop, I used to live above one, most people just ignore them the best they can, I got a corset fitted there but on the whole most people don't care.

[rosalie.bent]

1 hour ago, Elfy said:

I didn't quote you. I wrote that is my internal monologue. That means it's what I think when you speak.

I think the vast majority of ABDL's are anonymous for the same reason most people into any kink are anonymous... They see no need to be self-important and expose their kink to a public that doesn't care. Not to mention most people don't let this area of their life dominate things to the point where they feel some bizarre need to be accepted or noticed by others.

I looked up Senator Vittner since I hadn't heard of him (I live in the UK so it was easy to miss) but having looked at his wiki page and a few other links it seems he got in trouble for hiring a prostitute, I didn't see anything about diapers. FOr divorces and people fired that don't make the news, I couldn't possibly comment on it... Likewise, neither can you. It may or may not be happening. For someone who talks about their research into the topic a lot I'm surprised you would be talking about examples that may or may not exist.

Finally, your entire argument is the false equivalency between ABDL and LGBT. I'm not perpetually offended, I'm offended when others try to hijack something for their own gain when people had to suffer so much to get here... I guess you could compare it to "stolen valour". There's a movement of pedofiles that also want to be included under the LGBT banner and a lot of their arguments are disturbingly similar to yours.

LGBT is about gender and sexuality. Being ABDL is neither and I for one don't welcome any sub-group that wants to grab on to the wagon to try and get dragged along.

As for the right wing nonsense at the end of your post. I see your putting me into the classic "SJW" group that people who can't handle another opinion tend to go to these days. I believe it was you accusing others of the same thing in the thread about underage sex in stories. It's very lazy to just play that card despite me answering your points. Sure I wrote that that I'm offended but that doesn't mean I'm offended by everything!

It does show that you don't really understand what it is to be LGBT though... Perhaps if you did you would understand why subjects such as this gets under peoples skin.

You get offended way too easily. Yes, I remember your gross over--reaction to me feeding my baby formula bottles. You were ridiculously 'over the top' then and you are now. You draw conclusions no one is making and get offended by things not said or even implied, but which you choose to find nevertheless.

Until you learn to accept the right of other people to have alternate opinions and then to actually understand and accurately use those opinions, you will be permanently offended by anyone and everyone on just about every topic which triggers you - which seems to be an awful lot. Good grief, you got angry and triggered by bottle-feeding. 

You need to grow up and accept the right of other people to make statements without going nuclear.

PS. stop with the presumption that ABDL doesnt often factor into divorces, custody and employment. Just because you are ignorant of these terrible things doesnt make them non-existent. I routinely get asked for advice on some of these matters and may actually make a written statment to a family court on behalf of one ABDL whose situation you seem to not believe exists. 

Lyra:

"Oh lordy lord the straights are at it again."

 

Your argument died with your first sentence. The rest was ignored as a result.

[Lyra]

19 minutes ago, rosalie.bent said:

 

Lyra:

"Oh lordy lord the straights are at it again."

 

Your argument died with your first sentence. The rest was ignored as a result.

my word you're so easily offended, Until you learn to accept the right of other people to have alternate opinions and then to actually understand and accurately use those opinions, you will be permanently offended by anyone and everyone on just about every topic which triggers you

[Elfy]

Stop being offended says offended person.

Everything I have written has been responding to points you have made. I find the comparison offensive but don't act as if I'm asking for bans and a safe space and such, if I wanted to do that I could've done it at the start. There is a great deal of pot calling the kettle black in that last post.

As for the argument made in your "PS." You are right that just because something isn't documented or publicised doesn't mean it doesn't happen... But you can't just make the assumption that it does and make arguments about it. You must understand, with all your "research", that you need evidence before you make a claim. In my decade plus of being here I can think of one example of divorce where ABDL was brought up and negatively affected the outcome. Could that be evidence that what you claim is correct? Yes. But it could also be an exceptional case of which no pattern can be extrapolated.

I guess you have given up trying to argue the point (Classic deflecting away from the discussion into attacking the person providing argument) since you're trying to turn it into a personal thing against me

[KyleABDL]

id rather abdl be related to entomology and compared as a hobby, known, "accepted" still shuddered when thought about. the entomologist keeps everything in their basement, isnt seen walking the street showing off their collection or shoving their tarantula in random strangers faces. pretty sure abdl is more commonplace than entomology too.

so my take, commonfolk will never be OK with abdl because its not taught until adulthood as its often a bedroom topic. unlike how you can introduce bugs to children.

LGBT NEEDED a movement and group support to prevent basic public services and rights being taken away, ie employment, marriage, home ownership. abdls fortunately do not have those issues. entomologists, also, do not have those issues.

be real here, who likes bugs by a show of hands? now who here is uncomfortable being in the same room as a bug enthusiast? why is that? 

 

[spark]

I'm 49 years old.  This is not something I chose.  My desires to wear diapers developed from a time well before I was even aware that sex was a thing.  I'm fully comfortable wearing diapers when I'm out, but I'm very discreet.   I'm not ashamed of it.   It took me a long time to accept this as part of me, but I don't have any feeling of shame about it anymore.

I live in one of the most open and liberally open metropolitan areas in the entire world.   For the most part, it's an area where regardless of what letter you present, LBGT is pretty much accepted as 'You do you."  That didn't happen overnight, and people were literally killed because of it (Gwen Araujo).   Please don't get triggered because you think I'm comparing ABDL to LBGT, because I'm not.    But, if I were gay or transgendered, I would feel comfortable sharing it with my closest friends.   But this is something I haven't shared with my friends?  They don't know that I wear diapers most of the time, or that I've bought pacifiers, baby bottles or the like.   Why do think that is?   Is it my fear, or just me not wanting to explain my choice of underwear?   And in reality, it's way more than just my choice of underwear.    It's deeper and more ingrained.

This started with a question whether becoming mainstream is a good thing, which  IMO is a weird question.    First of is BS to say it's not mainstream, and never will be.  What do you mean by mainstream?  If it means being able to walk around in public wearing a diaper and being publicly open with it, then no.  In my opinion, that feels creepy.  I think it means we reach the "You do you," stage, and that time is getting closer. 

Almost all, if not all, incontinence suppliers are ABDL aware, and lot even actively market to ABDL.   ABDL specific products are sold everywhere.  I bought an adult baby bottle that works really well and came with an adult pacifier from Amazon a few months ago.   The cost was fairly low, where it used to be hugely expensive and would require a private vendor that I would email the details.   It's a sign that it's recognized and the market is there.  It's more and more common for television shows to reference ABDL and diapers.  Most are mocking references, but no longer in the 'OMG-, that's so creepy' area.  Compare what you would see today to King Baby., and that was a huge step forward to what we saw before.   And then there is this public acceptances (kind of) of convenience diapers.     In a few years, they won't do articles about people wearing diapers to New Year's Eve at Times Square because it won't elicit any response.  They wouldn't have done one a few years ago, because it was too strange.   And none of these are bad.

[NewGuy20]

I agree with Elfy that sexual orientations and sexual fetishes are very separate things. So I don't think the acronym "ABDL" should be added to "LGBT" or that any kink/fetish is comparable to an orientation. And keeping a sexual fetish a secret is much easier than keeping a romantic relationship a secret. One of the worst aspects of the American military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy was that you had people serving in the military living in constant fear of being seen with their spouse or significant other and unable to even so much as mention their romantic relationships to coworkers. On a side note, I always thought the "T" in "LGBT" seemed a little out of place because gender identity is not a sexual orientation either. 

As far as which group suffers more, I think thats a tough question because... how can one quantify the suffering of another human being? How can we truly know what life is like inside another person's heart and mind? Life for people all around the world is filled with widely varying degrees of suffering. There is a strong political narrative on the left that people can easily be broken down into those who are oppressed and people who are oppressors in society. Oppressors reap rewards while the oppressed suffer. Straight white men are seen as being at the top of that pyramid - an entire group of people whose struggles are just naturally considered less severe than anyone else's due to privilege. But not all straight, white men are the same - just like not all gay people are the same. Straight, white men in society have various different skills, privileges, and shortcomings. Bigotry and prejudice are very real forces in this world but they're far from being the only causes of human suffering. Reality is more nuanced than that. No one can say that gay people suffer more or less than ABDLs because not even all gay people suffer equally in this world. Being a gay person living in a theocracy in the Middle East is very different from being a gay person living in the United States. And being a gay person living in San Francisco, California is very different from being a gay person living in a rural, right wing, Christian part of Texas. And there are so many factors that effect human suffering because human beings are complex entities. A gay person with mental illness or a physical disability would likely suffer far more than a gay person without those difficulties. A gay person who was independently wealthy would likely suffer far less than a gay person who lived in poverty. Like I said, real life is nuanced. 

I think this is an interesting discussion because a while ago, I saw a post right here on DD that really made me think. I don't recall who made the post but, like many ABDL folks, he was a young man who was depressed and discouraged about what future - if any- he could ever have with a woman. He said, "My life would be so much easier if I were gay or asexual!" He genuinely wished he had been born gay instead of being born ABDL. It really made me wonder if he was right. There are many parts of western Europe and the United States that are very accepting of LGBT people. Sure, bigotry is very real in this world today but being gay is something that a majority of people in the United States have accepted as normal and polls show a huge amount of support for LGBT rights... Gay people do suffer discrimination but you can't argue that things aren't better for gay people in 2019 than in 1919. 

But being sexually aroused by urinating and defecating in an adult diaper and masturbating in it? Well, thats a behavior that is not nearly as socially acceptable in western society as being gay. Sure, typically ABDL individuals don't suffer as much overt discrimination as openly gay people do. That much we can agree on. But most ADBLs are not completely open about their sexual desires precisely because they are worried they could be discriminated against in some way! In decades past, one could even argue that gay people suffered LESS from discrimination by staying closeted, marrying someone of the opposite sex, and having children. Sure, being in the closet wasn't a happy, healthy, or satisfying life for them but living that lie was a survival tool to escape discrimination in a bigoted society. 

I once met a gay man who was a devout Republican and voted for Donald Trump! He told me that he didn't think gay people in America were discriminated against at all! He thought that the "liberal media" had just made all that up! Some of my liberal friends are shocked when they hear this story but why should they be? Gay people, like all people, are unique individuals with their own unique thoughts, feelings, and perceptions about the world around them. Not all of their opinions, perceptions, and experiences about the world around them will be the same! They're individuals, not one dimensional cartoon characters. And I don't think any one gay person can speak for the collective experiences of all gay people. 

Not all ABDL people suffer equally either! Some folks on here have been very lucky in meeting partners or spouses that are very accepting. Some have not been so lucky. That element of "luck" makes a big difference. There are many employers that would fire a person for being openly ABDL if they knew. There are parents who punish their children for indulging in ABDL desires, or send them to therapy. Having lived in some very conservative parts of the southern U.S., I can say that there are absolutely people out there who would beat you up for being openly ABDL. There are people who would divorce their spouse if they found out. My ex-girlfriend was very accepting of LGBT people but later told me that hearing I had this fetish "made her want to vomit", she said I was a "freak", a "pervert", and that I was mentally ill. And I'm certainly not the only ABDL that has had such a negative experience in a romantic relationship. It has been said most of life's happiness and suffering can be directly linked to who you choose to marry. Much like gay people, there are ABDL folks out there that live their entire lives with self hatred and suicidal thoughts in their heart... believing that they are deeply flawed in some way and can never be 'fixed'. I've certainly seen posts on DD where people are so depressed that they contemplate suicide over this fetish! 

Finally, while a sexual fetish and a sexual orientation are two different things that are tough (if not impossible) to really compare... the fact is that ABDLs share something in common with gay people. There will always be ignorant individuals in the world that confuse both groups of people with pedophiles. Its tough to describe just how toxic it is to have your sexual desires associated with pedophilia. And, to state the obvious here, not all people with sexual fetishes suffer equally either. Some fetishes are more socially acceptable than others. '50 Shades of Grey', for all its flaws, pushed BDSM more into the mainstream. I'd say that as far as fetishes go... this one is probably one of the more socially unacceptable fetishes out there! 

[eatenbywo1ves]

Eh, makes sense when looking at how the kink has kind of a been a pinata for various groups online etc...

Considering nearly everyone uses online content in some manner as opposed to twenty years ago and taking into account the amount of "cringe posts" that we create as group these days it kind of makes sense....