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Predestination: An infallible argument?


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2 hours ago, Findingacceptance said:

If we accept this as true, then our focus must shift to how we approach Evangelism. If we do accept that some go up and some go down, we should make sure that this view does not lead us into complacency and we begin to ignore our call to make disciples of ALL nations. Even if we accept that some go up and some go down, we don't know WHO will go and there are no outside markers to determine it. 

Exactly! It is not for us to judge the role God has assigned to anyone. And as for evangelism, It's fairly self-evident that those who seek good--not just for themselves, but for those around them--are by and large the happiest and most-fulfilled individuals there are. Which I would call "evidence" that we are supposed to live godly lives.

Now what exactly that means is another story.

2 hours ago, Findingacceptance said:

I'd like to talk about this statement for a bit. Is this a general statement that correlates with that we are saying, or is this an observation that you have seen in your own life and others?

I was just saying that it's a fundamental truth that some people are good and sone are bad. And that some people experience more pain and hardship in their lives than others.

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3 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I was just saying that it's a fundamental truth that some people are good and some are bad. And that some people experience more pain and hardship in their lives than others.

I'm glad. I think that sometimes we as humans might have a tendency to cast ourselves in particular roles and believe that God has placed us there. Like say, I'm experiencing hardship, so I must be the villain in this story. Using the Literature metaphor, we are all round characters in this story, capable of growth and change. There are no Flat or Static characters, or even Stock characters; particular archetypes that are incapable of change. 

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51 minutes ago, Findingacceptance said:

I think that sometimes we as humans might have a tendency to cast ourselves in particular roles and believe that God has placed us there. Like say, I'm experiencing hardship, so I must be the villain in this story

Yeah, I hate that sort of attitude. People who say that they're suffering because God is punishing them--or worse, to "test" them--are 9 times out of 10 using that as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility in their own life. Which is not the least bit useful for anyone.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/9/2019 at 5:19 AM, Wannatripbaby said:

Yeah, I hate that sort of attitude. People who say that they're suffering because God is punishing them--or worse, to "test" them--are 9 times out of 10 using that as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility in their own life. Which is not the least bit useful for anyone.

Not sure of the context you are referring to, but God *does* test people of faith as part of the process of refining and growing. Of course, some simply screw up themselves and try and claim it is 'a test'. But God *does* test us and I have only recently been through such an experience.

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31 minutes ago, rosalie.bent said:

Not sure of the context you are referring to, but God *does* test people of faith as part of the process of refining and growing. Of course, some simply screw up themselves and try and claim it is 'a test'. But God *does* test us and I have only recently been through such an experience.

I agree that God does test people. I was referring specifically to people who use "God is punishing/testing me" as an excuse for not taking responsibility for for their own poor choices.

But this is getting off-topic. If someone wants to discuss this particular issue further, please start a new topic so as not to derail this one.

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11 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I agree that God does test people. I was referring specifically to people who use "God is punishing/testing me" as an excuse for not taking responsibility for for their own poor choices.

But this is getting off-topic. If someone wants to discuss this particular issue further, please start a new topic so as not to derail this one.

agreed. It is often used as nothing more than an excuse for screwing up.

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On 5/6/2018 at 3:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

I don’t see how that extension follows.

If nurture is itself a function of nature, as would be implied by the assertion that because god controls nature he controls nurture, then nature and nurture are not distinct at all.

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Much of these kinds of debates get lost because we do not understand the divine nature of God. Not that we ever could anyhow. God doesnt just see our future. He INHABITS our future and our past and the same for everyone. He exists outside of time and outside of the physical universe. Trying to understand this is impossible.

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11 minutes ago, Author_Alex said:

I don’t see how that extension follows.

If nurture is itself a function of nature, as would be implied by the assertion that because god controls nature he controls nurture, then nature and nurture are not distinct at all.

Hmm... perhaps what we have here is an error in communication? For the purposes of this argument I believe I have defined Nature and Nurture in an earlier post. But I'll redefine it here:

Nature: Your genetic make-up. Basically everything you are born with from a physical and metaphysical stance.

Nurture: Everything that happens after you are born that shapes your personality, mind, body, etc.

Does this make more sense?

 

12 minutes ago, rosalie.bent said:

Much of these kinds of debates get lost because we do not understand the divine nature of God. Not that we ever could anyhow. God doesnt just see our future. He INHABITS our future and our past and the same for everyone. He exists outside of time and outside of the physical universe. Trying to understand this is impossible.

While it is true that we have to pay mind to the fact that God is a being beyond time and space, we also can't use that as an excuse not to at least try to understand him and his ways. I believe that is what the bible means when it says "worship God with all your MIND." After all, how is one supposed to have a relationship with God if they approach him as an abstract, unknowable concept?

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10 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

Hmm... perhaps what we have here is an error in communication? For the purposes of this argument I believe I have defined Nature and Nurture in an earlier post. But I'll redefine it here:

Nature: Your genetic make-up. Basically everything you are born with from a physical and metaphysical stance.

Nurture: Everything that happens after you are born that shapes your personality, mind, body, etc.

Does this make more sense?

 

While it is true that we have to pay mind to the fact that God is a being beyond time and space, we also can't use that as an excuse not to at least try to understand him and his ways. I believe that is what the bible means when it says "worship God with all your MIND." After all, how is one supposed to have a relationship with God if they approach him as an abstract, unknowable concept?

Absolutely agree. The point I was making is that actually knowing and understanding God fully is impossible by the limitations of who we are and where we live. I dont approach God as an abstract at all. I pray and speak with Him constantly, knowing that He hears and listens. But my mind is limited in its understanding while my soul is not limited in its relationship.

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  • 5 months later...

God has a plan for us all, but He gives us the option of Free Will to choose Him, or our way. Predestination is to me, in my humble opinion God has a plan, but He isn't going to force it on me. If I am in obedience to God's Will, I will be listening to Him in prayer daily, and other authority figures in my life, like Pastor, and other Christian Brothers and Sisters. But, IMHO  I think God knows who His chosen are before we're born, but WE HAVE FREE WILL to change that. He wants us all to be with Him in Eternity. We were made to worship our Creator.

Thou shall not have ANY other Gods before Me.

You can can not serve two Master's. You will Love one, and Despise the other.

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Here's a thought: what if God doesn't know everything we're going to do, but He does know that we will come to know His Son Jesus, and salvation through faith that Jesus died on the cross for each and every person that's going to spend eternity with Him?

This is just a hypothetical, because as BELIEVERS we know our final destination!

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  • 3 weeks later...
God has a plan for us all, but He gives us the option of Free Will to choose Him, or our way. Predestination is to me, in my humble opinion God has a plan, but He isn't going to force it on me. If I am in obedience to God's Will, I will be listening to Him in prayer daily, and other authority figures in my life, like Pastor, and other Christian Brothers and Sisters. But, IMHO  I think God knows who His chosen are before we're born, but WE HAVE FREE WILL to change that. He wants us all to be with Him in Eternity. We were made to worship our Creator.
Thou shall not have ANY other Gods before Me.
You can can not serve two Master's. You will Love one, and Despise the other.

But free will limits God’s sovereignty which means he’s not all powerful


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31 minutes ago, Joep said:


But free will limits God’s sovereignty which means he’s not all powerful


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Nothing interrupts God's sovereignty. God is, and always be sovereign. All He does is allow us to be created, and he has a plan for our lives to spend eternity with him, as we were created to worship God, but He gives us Free Will which changes our destiny, and final destination, but that doesn't change God's sovereignty or diminish His power. He is ALL powerful, but He also is a God of love hence the Free Will, but He wants each and everyone of His creations to be with Him.

 

Sovereignty of God – What are the Parameters?
While the God’s supremacy is unrestricted, even the sovereignty of God has its parameters. "Ultimately God is in complete control of all things, though He may choose to let certain events happen according to natural laws which He has ordained."2

  • God cannot do anything that would deny His own character. Since God is immutable, His words must reflect His integrity (Numbers 23:19). God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18). In all cases, God not only remains truthful, but keeps every oath and promise He makes.
  • God cannot be tempted by evil. There is no element in His nature to which evil can make an appeal (James 1:13). While God will often test us, He tempts no one. In fact, God uses His unlimited power to enable us to resist and escape evil (1 Corinthians 10:13).
  • God cannot deny or contradict Himself. God remains faithful to His covenant promises (Malachi 3:6). A promise is only as good as the person who makes it. Like God, His Word is immutable (1 Samuel 15:29). God does not revoke what He has given or discard who He has chosen (Romans 11:29).
  • God cannot forgive sin without the payment being made. Because God is just, He cannot simply “wipe the slate clean” (Romans 6:23). Christ cried out in the Garden of Gethsemane, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me...” (Matthew 26:39). Christ had to endure excruciating physical and spiritual agony, God’s perfect justice pronounced on sin.
  • God cannot force anyone to love Him or to receive His gift of eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. It is an act of man’s free will (John 1:11–13). When an individual chooses to respond in faith, welcoming Jesus into his life, he becomes a new creation.

 

Sovereignty of God – How is it seen?
While the sovereignty of God is infinite, the use of His power is defined by His other attributes. Characteristics such as truthfulness, goodness, faithfulness, righteousness, and love define God’s every action. If one attribute were disproportionate or over-emphasized, chaos would result on a universal level.

Consider a god who favored one person over another. God does not favor an individual because of his station in life, his nationality, or his material possessions (Acts 10:34-35). Rather, God’s accepts us by welcoming us into a right relationship by faith in Jesus Christ.

By the sovereignty of God, we have a free will and are able to make choices and decisions that shape our lives. While we do not possess God’s infinite power, we can surrender our hearts, souls, minds to ways that are consistent with His holy will. In this way, we honor the Creator and Sustainer of all things, recognizing God is truly sovereign (Colossians 1:16-17).

 

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Nothing interrupts God's sovereignty. God is, and always be sovereign. All He does is allow us to be created, and he has a plan for our lives to spend eternity with him, as we were created to worship God, but He gives us Free Will which changes our destiny, and final destination, but that doesn't change God's sovereignty or diminish His power. He is ALL powerful, but He also is a God of love hence the Free Will, but He wants each and everyone of His creations to be with Him.
 

Sovereignty of God – What are the Parameters?
While the God’s supremacy is unrestricted, even the sovereignty of God has its parameters. "Ultimately God is in complete control of all things, though He may choose to let certain events happen according to natural laws which He has ordained."2

  • God cannot do anything that would deny His own character. Since God is immutable, His words must reflect His integrity (Numbers 23:19). God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18). In all cases, God not only remains truthful, but keeps every oath and promise He makes.
  • God cannot be tempted by evil. There is no element in His nature to which evil can make an appeal (James 1:13). While God will often test us, He tempts no one. In fact, God uses His unlimited power to enable us to resist and escape evil (1 Corinthians 10:13).
  • God cannot deny or contradict Himself. God remains faithful to His covenant promises (Malachi 3:6). A promise is only as good as the person who makes it. Like God, His Word is immutable (1 Samuel 15:29). God does not revoke what He has given or discard who He has chosen (Romans 11:29).
  • God cannot forgive sin without the payment being made. Because God is just, He cannot simply “wipe the slate clean” (Romans 6:23). Christ cried out in the Garden of Gethsemane, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me...” (Matthew 26:39). Christ had to endure excruciating physical and spiritual agony, God’s perfect justice pronounced on sin.
  • God cannot force anyone to love Him or to receive His gift of eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. It is an act of man’s free will (John 1:11–13). When an individual chooses to respond in faith, welcoming Jesus into his life, he becomes a new creation.

 

Sovereignty of God – How is it seen?
While the sovereignty of God is infinite, the use of His power is defined by His other attributes. Characteristics such as truthfulness, goodness, faithfulness, righteousness, and love define God’s every action. If one attribute were disproportionate or over-emphasized, chaos would result on a universal level.

Consider a god who favored one person over another. God does not favor an individual because of his station in life, his nationality, or his material possessions (Acts 10:34-35). Rather, God’s accepts us by welcoming us into a right relationship by faith in Jesus Christ.

By the sovereignty of God, we have a free will and are able to make choices and decisions that shape our lives. While we do not possess God’s infinite power, we can surrender our hearts, souls, minds to ways that are consistent with His holy will. In this way, we honor the Creator and Sustainer of all things, recognizing God is truly sovereign (Colossians 1:16-17).

 

If you have free will then God has no sovereignty over you. You can’t have both without enacting a fallacy.


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Wow, this thread came back out of nowhere! Allow me, as its author, to weigh in.

On 12/23/2019 at 8:12 AM, Fulldiaper said:

Here's a thought: what if God doesn't know everything we're going to do, but He does know that we will come to know His Son Jesus, and salvation through faith that Jesus died on the cross for each and every person that's going to spend eternity with Him?

That is a thought, but it isn't logically consistent. How could God "know" the singular fact of your salvation and yet be oblivious to all/any other facets of your life? Sounds like a cop-out one would tell themselves because they don't want to think about the very difficult and existentially-terrifying issues this very topic brings up.

I suggest if you're going to post in this thread that you should read the previous posts if you haven't already, and try to address the issues I've specifically brought up rather than just regurgitating theological teachings at us. Because so far the ideas you've brought up have been discussed no less than 5 times already in this thread.

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16 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

Wow, this thread came back out of nowhere! Allow me, as its author, to weigh in.

That is a thought, but it isn't logically consistent. How could God "know" the singular fact of your salvation and yet be oblivious to all/any other facets of your life? Sounds like a cop-out one would tell themselves because they don't want to think about the very difficult and existentially-terrifying issues this very topic brings up.

I suggest if you're going to post in this thread that you should read the previous posts if you haven't already, and try to address the issues I've specifically brought up rather than just regurgitating theological teachings at us. Because so far the ideas you've brought up have been discussed no less than 5 times already in this thread.

Well, maybe you should take a hint. If we're all saying the same thing, well, maybe, just maybe there's some truth in what we're saying then.

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3 hours ago, Fulldiaper said:

Well, maybe you should take a hint. If we're all saying the same thing, well, maybe, just maybe there's some truth in what we're saying then.

And I can see where you're coning from with that. And there is some truth and wisdom in that practice. As the great Jim Rockford once said "If 50 people tell you you're drunk, maybe it's time to lie down?" Lol.

But I don't believe that's what's going on here. Because each time someone says something along the lines of "God is all-powerful, but he chooses to give his creations free will" I bring up the same point that point out the logical paradox that creates, and nobody has an answer for it!

Now this leaves me with a few possible explainations:

#1. I haven't explained myself properly. Possible, but I don’t believe so.

#2. I'm too wrapped up in my delusions to see the truth. That's always a possibility. But again, the whole reason I started this thread was in an attempt to disprove my theory. Because that's what someone who's truly looking for answers does; they try to poke as many holes in their own arguments as they can.

Which leaves one more possibility; one which I have long suspected:

#3. The truth that we might not have free will is so existentially-terrifying that 99% of the people who encounter it suffer cognitive dissonance to deflect it. I.e. you *literally* can't handle the truth, so your brain refuses to connect the dots.

Of course that kind of thinking is extremely dangerous as it allows one to discredit anything anyone else says that doesn't line up with my thinking because "they aren't enlightened enough to possibly understand." And I would hope I NEVER fall into that way of thinking.

And so I do my best to keep the conversation going. To continue to exchange ideas and sharpen my mental metal against yours like iron sharpening iron. After all, what good are our ideas and opinions if we never allow anyone to challenge them?

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2 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

And I can see where you're coning from with that. And there is some truth and wisdom in that practice. As the great Jim Rockford once said "If 50 people tell you you're drunk, maybe it's time to lie down?" Lol.

But I don't believe that's what's going on here. Because each time someone says something along the lines of "God is all-powerful, but he chooses to give his creations free will" I bring up the same point that point out the logical paradox that creates, and nobody has an answer for it!

Now this leaves me with a few possible explainations:

#1. I haven't explained myself properly. Possible, but I don’t believe so.

#2. I'm too wrapped up in my delusions to see the truth. That's always a possibility. But again, the whole reason I started this thread was in an attempt to disprove my theory. Because that's what someone who's truly looking for answers does; they try to poke as many holes in their own arguments as they can.

Which leaves one more possibility; one which I have long suspected:

#3. The truth that we might not have free will is so existentially-terrifying that 99% of the people who encounter it suffer cognitive dissonance to deflect it. I.e. you *literally* can't handle the truth, so your brain refuses to connect the dots.

Of course that kind of thinking is extremely dangerous as it allows one to discredit anything anyone else says that doesn't line up with my thinking because "they aren't enlightened enough to possibly understand." And I would hope I NEVER fall into that way of thinking.

And so I do my best to keep the conversation going. To continue to exchange ideas and sharpen my mental metal against yours like iron sharpening iron. After all, what good are our ideas and opinions if we never allow anyone to challenge them?

23 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

Wow, this thread came back out of nowhere! Allow me, as its author, to weigh in.

That is a thought, but it isn't logically consistent. How could God "know" the singular fact of your salvation and yet be oblivious to all/any other facets of your life? Sounds like a cop-out one would tell themselves because they don't want to think about the very difficult and existentially-terrifying issues this very topic brings up.

I suggest if you're going to post in this thread that you should read the previous posts if you haven't already, and try to address the issues I've specifically brought up rather than just regurgitating theological teachings at us. Because so far the ideas you've brought up have been discussed no less than 5 times already in this thread.

Well, maybe you should take a hint. If we're all saying the same thing, well, maybe, just maybe there's some truth in what we're saying then.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people spout out their views, but there's nothing solid to back it up. I as least quote Biblical scripture as my proof. What have you got to prove yours?

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30 minutes ago, Fulldiaper said:

Well, maybe you should take a hint. If we're all saying the same thing, well, maybe, just maybe there's some truth in what we're saying then.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people spout out their views, but there's nothing solid to back it up. I as least quote Biblical scripture as my proof. What have you got to prove yours?

I'm going to ignore that snide remark against my character.

As for claiming "the bible" gives your statements credence, I can tell you that simply is not sufficient. I could use the bible to jusify many atrocities such as slavery, child abuse, murder, and genocide. And many people have! So simply claiming "the bible says it" as the only justification for your belief and feeling as though you need no further evidence is honestly a sign of weak faith. I've seen it played out in my life and the lives of others. 

As for my "evidence" I used a logical train of thought--drawing my axioms from the same bible you draw your beliefs from--and simply put 2 and 2 together to come up with 4. If my conclusion is based upon an illogical or incorrect axion, then it shouldn't be too hard for you to dismantle my arguments, right? Here, I'll even repost my original argument so that you can have it right in front of you.

  1. The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

  2. If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

  3. Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being.

  4. And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

  5. Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

 

If you have a problem with any of these 5 axioms, and are willing and able to dismantle it with logic and reason, please be my guest.

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15 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I'm going to ignore that snide remark against my character.

As for claiming "the bible" gives your statements credence, I can tell you that simply is not sufficient. I could use the bible to jusify many atrocities such as slavery, child abuse, murder, and genocide. And many people have! So simply claiming "the bible says it" as the only justification for your belief and feeling as though you need no further evidence is honestly a sign of weak faith. I've seen it played out in my life and the lives of others. 

As for my "evidence" I used a logical train of thought--drawing my axioms from the same bible you draw your beliefs from--and simply put 2 and 2 together to come up with 4. If my conclusion is based upon an illogical or incorrect axion, then it shouldn't be too hard for you to dismantle my arguments, right? Here, I'll even repost my original argument so that you can have it right in front of you.

  1. The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

  2. If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

  3. Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being.

  4. And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

  5. Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

 

If you have a problem with any of these 5 axioms, and are willing and able to dismantle it with logic and reason, please be my guest.

Sounds easy enough to disprove. I'll go point by point.

Point 1: The soul is a construct of your mind. There is no experimental evidence for its existence. However, it will interesting to learn what the threshold is for sentience.

Point 2: This is false because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, where the more you know about the location of a subatomic particle, the less you know about its momentum. This means there is always probability involved, especially in your brain.

Point 3: There is no evidence a god created the universe.

Point 4 and 5: False due to reasons listed previously.

 

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1 hour ago, Diapered Jason said:

Sounds easy enough to disprove. I'll go point by point.

Point 1: The soul is a construct of your mind. There is no experimental evidence for its existence. However, it will interesting to learn what the threshold is for sentience.

Point 2: This is false because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, where the more you know about the location of a subatomic particle, the less you know about its momentum. This means there is always probability involved, especially in your brain.

Point 3: There is no evidence a god created the universe.

Point 4 and 5: False due to reasons listed previously.

 

I thought this was implicit in the argument, but this topic Assumes the existence of God or some god-like being. Obviously if you don't believe in God you cannot believe in Predestination.

If you want to debate the existence of God, that would be a separate discussion to have before this one. Otherwise we aren't even capable of discussing this topic as our viewpoints are too dissimilar. It would be like 2 blind people debating what the best shade of blue is.

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On 5/6/2018 at 2:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

I think this is the flaw. Modern physics has all but shown local determinism to be impossible. This means that, even if one were to know everything that there is to be known, it would still not be possible to perfectly predict behavior of a person, nor even the time evolution of a physical system.

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1 hour ago, MistyPines said:

I think this is the flaw. Modern physics has all but shown local determinism to be impossible. This means that, even if one were to know everything that there is to be known, it would still not be possible to perfectly predict behavior of a person, nor even the time evolution of a physical system.

I don't know quite enough about physics to give this answer the attention it deserves. But from what I understand about local determinism, the Uncertain Principle, and the like, they moreso prove that *humans* cannot predict the behavior of matter at a molecular scale, and by extension larger scales as well. This, however, does not necessarily apply to an omniscient, omnipresent being.

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35 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I don't know quite enough about physics to give this answer the attention it deserves. But from what I understand about local determinism, the Uncertain Principle, and the like, they moreso prove that *humans* cannot predict the behavior of matter at a molecular scale, and by extension larger scales as well. This, however, does not necessarily apply to an omniscient, omnipresent being.

What they demonstrate, in summary, is that what information exists and what information doesn't depends on what measurements are made. The idea that the information may exist but be hidden / unmeasurable has been experimentally invalidated. There's a lot to dig into for details of how this was accomplished, but a good place to start is Bell's Theorem
Long story short, uncertainty is a fundamental feature of reality, not only a restriction on what can practically be measured.

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