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Predestination: An infallible argument?


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16 hours ago, Bettypooh said:

If we have free will, then God erred in giving us something knowing that we would use it wrongfully, much the same as giving a loaded gun to a child would be, yet if we are predestined then none of this is our fault as we could do nothing else and all bad would be the fault of God. 

Exactly! That's the point I'm trying to make! But, unlike you, I can't use that as an excuse to say "God is evil and religion is stupid." There is MUCH more going on here than a simple concept like Free Will vs. Predestination can answer.

Right now, my working theory is something like this: God is a cosmic Storyteller and we are the characters in his book. Some of us are heros. Others are villians. Some are victims. Others go on to live a "happily ever after."

Now he biggest glaring problem with this theory that I can see is: what about hell? If our actions are Predestined then how can God punish us for all eternity for simply playing the role we've been given?

This is a subject that rightly deserves its own thread, and maybe I'll start that thread some day. But the long & short of what I believe is this: Hell can't exist because it contradicts the nature of God. Not only that, but the doctrine of Hell serves little to no utility as far as I can see. And has actually done a lot of harm, at least in the western church as far as I can see.

Also @BitterGrey what is OP? Original Premise, mayhaps? I'm sorry, I sometimes get confused by text-speak and acronyms.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 7/15/2018 at 3:44 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

Exactly! That's the point I'm trying to make! But, unlike you, I can't use that as an excuse to say "God is evil and religion is stupid." There is MUCH more going on here than a simple concept like Free Will vs. Predestination can answer.

Right now, my working theory is something like this: God is a cosmic Storyteller and we are the characters in his book. Some of us are heros. Others are villians. Some are victims. Others go on to live a "happily ever after."

Now he biggest glaring problem with this theory that I can see is: what about hell? If our actions are Predestined then how can God punish us for all eternity for simply playing the role we've been given?

This is a subject that rightly deserves its own thread, and maybe I'll start that thread some day. But the long & short of what I believe is this: Hell can't exist because it contradicts the nature of God. Not only that, but the doctrine of Hell serves little to no utility as far as I can see. And has actually done a lot of harm, at least in the western church as far as I can see.

Also @BitterGrey what is OP? Original Premise, mayhaps? I'm sorry, I sometimes get confused by text-speak and acronyms.

I think I see what you were originally trying to say: there's a disconnect between predestination and free will and both concepts are mutually exclusive, at least from a logical standpoint.  

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6 minutes ago, Firefly 35 said:

I think I see what you were originally trying to say: there's a disconnect between predestination and free will and both concepts are mutually exclusive, at least from a logical standpoint.  

Yeah, I guess that's part of what I'm saying. If our actions are predetermined, we can't have freewill. If we have freewill, God isn't in control of the universe.

Now people may try to argue "just because God sees your actions doesn't mean he controls them." But that's where they're wrong. Because if God saw your actions before the Universe was created and chose to create you anyway... need I say more?

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8 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

Yeah, I guess that's part of what I'm saying. If our actions are predetermined, we can't have freewill. If we have freewill, God isn't in control of the universe.

Now people may try to argue "just because God sees your actions doesn't mean he controls them." But that's where they're wrong. Because if God saw your actions before the Universe was created and chose to create you anyway... need I say more?

I see what you mean.  No offense to any people who are religious, but I think a lot of the beliefs in organized religions make no sense.  For example, if God loves all of his creation, why would LBGT people be an exception?  (And also if LBGT was bad, why would God create them that way or with those tendencies?)  

Also, if Christians, Muslims, and Jews all believe in one all-powerful God, would that mean there are 3 all-powerful Gods?  (All 3 religions are different, yet each is sure that it is correct.)

I could go on, but don't want this to turn into a wall-of-text.

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22 hours ago, Firefly 35 said:

For example, if God loves all of his creation, why would LBGT people be an exception?  (And also if LBGT was bad, why would God create them that way or with those tendencies?)  

Also, if Christians, Muslims, and Jews all believe in one all-powerful God, would that mean there are 3 all-powerful Gods?  (All 3 religions are different, yet each is sure that it is correct.)

Those are all questions for a different thread. Not this one.

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On 5/6/2018 at 9:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

I just want to start out by saying that I'm not looking to cause a flame war. All I want is some constructive feedback.

Predestination is the idea that every single thing that happens only happens because God planned it that way. Every good AND bad thing that has happened it will happen is caused directly by God. Now, a lot of people disagree with the idea for Predestination. But I feel that I've found a logically sound, airtight argument for the idea that we have no freewill and God is directly responsible for every action you take. And I challenge anyone reading this to prove me wrong. Not because I want to prove how smart and superior I am. I honestly want someone to prove me wrong. Because this philosophy has brought me no joy.

Anyhoo, here's my argument stated as a series if premises:

  1. The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

  2. If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

  3. Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being.

  4. And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

  5. Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

 

I'm not interested in debating the “moral implications” of Predestination, I want the logical ones.

 

1 The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

For a start, you select very narrow parameters. Why only pick nature and nurture?  We all know that freedom of choice, a variable,  is an equally decisive factor.  It must therefore, at the very least,  be restated.

1 The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is IS   INFLUENCED  BY  3   parts: Nature, Nurture & Freedom of Choice.

Next, you do not include the effect of satan.  God and satan must have equal powers, otherwise one would have vanquished the other, but God has an ace, he can forgive, which satan can't.    God, presumably, would like only the best in his heaven, and he uses free will and satan to sort out the souls that he will one day consider.

2. If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

Lets simplify things, because  the "you" that you mention is pretty complicated, and substitute a "Draughts (chequers) game.  At the start, the number of squares, the number of pieces and their positions are known to both players.  Why can't they predict the winner with 100% accuracy?

3. Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being,  ALTHOUGH   NOT   OUR   FREEDOM   OF   CHOICE.

You are outside, God creates a deluge of rain.  Through freewill, you could either stay outside, get very wet and die of a chill, or you could go inside, pour a whiskey, sit by the fire and live to a ripe old age.

4. And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

NO !  That is just simply wrong.  Of course it doesn't mean that "by extension he controls how we were nurtured.   BY   DEFINITION,    HE   DOESN'T    CONTROL     FREEDOM    OF    CHOICE.

5. Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.  FAKE   NEWS,          FAKE    NEWS,           FAKE   NEWS!

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@Wet Knight You have got some seriously wonky theology going in there! But I don't wanna get into that.

You seem to be assuming "Freedom of Choice" is some kind of concrete, tangible thing? The entire point of this thread is to contemplate whether or not freewill exists. Therefore it cannot be taken as a given.

You've probably read at least most of this thread, so tell me, sir: how do YOU define Freewill outside of what is Created and what Evolves? (I.e. Nature & Nurture.)

P.s. screaming FAKE NEWS!!! Over and over at the end of your thesis statement is a pretty good way of completely discrediting yourself. What are you, 12?

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You seem to assume that predestination is some kind of concrete , tangible thing, when the evidence for its existence is less plausible than coincidence.

The flaw in you logic is the limitation of your parameters.  You exclude satan and ascribe good and evil only to God.

By your logic you could prove that speed doesn't exist by excluding either time or distance.

Once you include satan, there must be freewill to choose good or evil, because there can't be two predestinations, can there ?

How do you expect me to define Freewill outside of what is created and what evolves when it consists of choices within nature, and nurture is based on knowledge about nature.

Oh, and about FAKE NEWS  ? 

There is this guy who thinks he is the omnipotent man in his universe, who cries "FAKE NEWS" when he doesn't agree with other people.  Haven't you noticed that yet, in your part if this universe?

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1 hour ago, Wet Knight said:

The flaw in you logic is the limitation of your parameters.  You exclude satan and ascribe good and evil only to God.

Satan was created by God. Therefore, by extension, he is one of God's many tools in developing us through nurture.

Satan is not equal to God. No religion except Satanism says so. And it doesn't line up with any sort of logic that a created, finite being could be equal to its Limitless Creator.

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As we now know and have done ourselves, time only exists for particles that are quantumly entangled.  To an outside observer, everything is seen to happen at once.  God, being outside time, saw it all, but we are having to take our time to get through it.  So, we can have free will, but God already saw what our choice would be.

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As Charles Darwin said about evolution. You can always make the argument that everything which happens in the world is being controlled by the invisible hand of an immoral God working behind the scenes.
Now, as far as I'm concerned, people are welcome to adopt that position if they want to. But where does this actually get them?
It seems to me to be a vacuous & totally superfluous argument which, apart from getting the proponent on a controvertist ego trip,  doesn't actually get anyone anywhere.

 

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Hehe, for the op, maybe freewill cannot be obtained by thinking about it this much, because with all this philosophizing, you will have no time for any thing else in your mind. I'd say you have psyched yourself out, but that message is probably not going to get through by the time I check on this thread in a few days. After all, it's just a thought, which has no value, because no action can come of it.

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Lol, interesting topic I found here, and yes maybe I'm slightly going off topic here, but I don't believe in God or deities as maybe others, I class myself as more spiritual now, I was very religious as a child and teenager, with things being as they are I think if there is a higher being I think they are very different from what most of us imagine. Myself I now do what I believe is right, if I am going to be judged when I die then I hope it is by the way I have lived and what I've tried to do. Not sure I believe in predestination, because then I wouldn't have free will, which is something I think everyone has whatever you may believe, it is the choices we make that have influence and the outcome of our lives. I don't disbelieve or believe in a higher power, I think there is definitely something after we shuffle off our mortal coils because I belive we have "souls" some inner spark which is more than our meat suits if you want to put it crudely, but as to what this entails I couldn't answer you. Faith means something different to all of us, yeah I probably went totally off topic, but seeing as I don't believe in God as you are talking about them maybe that's okay.

As to nature and nurture, I look at that as something separate from religion, yes we are born with certain traits inside us but those traits are also influenced by things around us and how we are treated, but then again we can make choices, not all how are abused will be abusers for example.

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On 8/30/2018 at 3:46 PM, Sissy'sMummy said:

Lol, interesting topic I found here, and yes maybe I'm slightly going off topic here, but I don't believe in God or deities as maybe others, I class myself as more spiritual now, I was very religious as a child and teenager, with things being as they are I think if there is a higher being I think they are very different from what most of us imagine. Myself I now do what I believe is right, if I am going to be judged when I die then I hope it is by the way I have lived and what I've tried to do. Not sure I believe in predestination, because then I wouldn't have free will, which is something I think everyone has whatever you may believe, it is the choices we make that have influence and the outcome of our lives. I don't disbelieve or believe in a higher power, I think there is definitely something after we shuffle off our mortal coils because I belive we have "souls" some inner spark which is more than our meat suits if you want to put it crudely, but as to what this entails I couldn't answer you. Faith means something different to all of us, yeah I probably went totally off topic, but seeing as I don't believe in God as you are talking about them maybe that's okay.

As to nature and nurture, I look at that as something separate from religion, yes we are born with certain traits inside us but those traits are also influenced by things around us and how we are treated, but then again we can make choices, not all how are abused will be abusers for example.

I feel bad for you. I just lost my wife to cancer and the only thing that kept (keeps) us going was/is our faith in God and eternal life through Jesus. Faith is literally "belief in the unseen." And We're told to "just believe"  and I do. I do not take credit for this, but give it to the Holy Spirit, the creator and perfector of our faith.

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On 8/26/2018 at 9:58 PM, PP Rebel said:

Now, as far as I'm concerned, people are welcome to adopt that position if they want to. But where does this actually get them?

That's part of what I'm trying to figure out by asking the question.

On 8/29/2018 at 10:54 PM, Diapered Jason said:

Hehe, for the op, maybe freewill cannot be obtained by thinking about it this much, because with all this philosophizing, you will have no time for any thing else in your mind.

Haha! That idea actually has more validity than you might think. The problem of Predestination vs Freewill only matters in so much as we think about it. If nobody ever thought about it, it wouldn't be an issue. But people do think about things like this so I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring.

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  • 4 months later...

I too believe God has a plan for our lives (predestination), but He also gives us free will to do as we wish. He want's the best for us, but He allows us to make choices. The question is:

If God is all knowing and our lives are predestined. Does God know we'll make the choices against His plans?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I answered a similar thread before (and admit I didn't go through all the responses to this one).  We now know that time only exists for quantumly entangled particles.  To an outside observer, the entire process is seen at once.  Therefore, if God is the outside observer, he knows the end result.  Did he decide how it would end or simply know what the result would be, but the writers couldn't understand all that (much like the illustration of John trying to describe modern technology in the Revelation of Jesus Christ with no idea what he was seeing)?

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Whoa! Haven't heard from this thread in a while! Sorry guys, my account hasn't been sending me notifications lately. :/ I'll try to go through and answer these.

On 1/21/2019 at 1:09 AM, Babyabdl323 said:

Predestination implies that the event will occur no matter what. Like the judgement day of God will happen.

Foreordination is a prophecy that becomes fulfilled based on the choices we make.

And I am postulating that there is no difference. Predestination = Foreordination because Free Will is an illusion. Now the question is: Do you have a counter argument?

On 2/2/2019 at 1:01 PM, Fulldiaper said:

I too believe God has a plan for our lives (predestination), but He also gives us free will to do as we wish. He want's the best for us, but He allows us to make choices. 

As I have already covered a dozen times, this is a logical paradox. You cannot have a universe created by an Omniscient God And still say we mere mortals have any control or uchoice in our lives.

On 2/10/2019 at 8:25 PM, SiliconeSpandex said:

I answered a similar thread before (and admit I didn't go through all the responses to this one).  We now know that time only exists for quantumly entangled particles.  To an outside observer, the entire process is seen at once.  Therefore, if God is the outside observer, he knows the end result.  Did he decide how it would end or simply know what the result would be, 

And I am saying that it is impossible for God to make a decision without knowing the end result already because he is Omniscient and Timeless. As such, he decided how your life would play out to the minutest detail before the world ever began. Can anyone who believes in God deny this?

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On 5/6/2018 at 4:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

Let's "ride this train to the station". Let us take as a given that all of your premises lead us to the conclusion that we are programmed, which I will agree with you not only in a spiritual sense but also psychologically, and free will does not exist, so how can that account for flaws in the program? In short, how does the program behave in a manner opposite of its programming? Because I believe the only fault in your logic is that it all presumes an immutable program. Using The Matrix as an example, Neo was the One and he was always the One because the Architect tells us that the existence of the one is the result of the programming. Previous iterations of Neo behaved in similar ways, but the one we view does not. Why? Because the computer running the program is flawed!

Your premise is airtight assuming that the program will run as it was intended in perpetuity. But humans are flawed. God does know all that we will do, but do you honestly believe that our responses are as limited as Bioware dialogue? There are thousands of different ways we could respond and God knows all of them. The test is not does God know what I'm about to do, but, believing we have a choice, will we make it?

In short, our lives are a paradox composed of free will and predestination. If Salvation were a door, we would look at it and see written above, "Knock and the door will be opened unto you." We approach, survey, turn the knob and make the choice to walk through. It has to be our choice for us to have any commitment. But once we walk through, after making our choice, we see written above, "for you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." The paradox is that only after making the choice do we see and understand that we didn't have a choice at all.

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9 hours ago, Findingacceptance said:

Let's "ride this train to the station". Let us take as a given that all of your premises lead us to the conclusion that we are programmed, which I will agree with you not only in a spiritual sense but also psychologically, and free will does not exist, so how can that account for flaws in the program? In short, how does the program behave in a manner opposite of its programming? Because I believe the only fault in your logic is that it all presumes an immutable program. 

That's not a fault in my logic. That is a presumption that is already established before the argument can take place.

The Christian view of God (which is the one we are using for this argument) is, by his very nature, infallible. A God who is not infallible is not the Christian God, but a different God all together.

Now if you don't believe that it's perfectly fine. It may be true that God isn't perfect and that would effectively solve all questions regarding "flaws" in his creation. But that is a different discussion. This thread's argument is based around the preposition that, IF God is infallible, AND all powerful, AND omniscient, how do you account for Freewill?

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17 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

This thread's argument is based around the preposition that, IF God is infallible, AND all powerful, AND omniscient, how do you account for Freewill?

<rubs hands excitedly> This is getting fun.

I'm going to have to ruminate on this for a while. My understanding of this fully accounts for both. What we call Free Will has to be there for us. It's an illusion, but like the proverbial Runner's High, it's an illusion that motivates us towards the goal. God gives us Free Will so that we may willingly choose him. If we had no choice in the matter, then our faith and submission mean nothing. If I make a child apologize, they aren't really apologetic. If a child chooses to apologize, we know they truly understand. So, we have to have the choice, and we must make the choice. After making the choice, we experience a change and realize that it wasn't fully us but the power of God working within us. 

Francis Chan in his book, Crazy Love, gives us a similar thought experiment. He looks at Romans 9:22-23, and asks what if God truly did create vessels of wrath bound for destruction and vessels of mercy bound for glory? He asks us to examine our faith and say, "If this is true, can we still worship him?" Are we satisfied in the knowledge that some people just won't make it, and they will consistently use their illusory choice to choose the negative outcome. I think this is along the same lines as your question. It's not so much that we are worried about whether or not we choose or not choose, but that are there some people who, no matter what we do, will not be saved.

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19 hours ago, Findingacceptance said:

<rubs hands excitedly> This is getting fun.

Glad you're enjoying it! :D

19 hours ago, Findingacceptance said:

Are we satisfied in the knowledge that some people just won't make it, and they will consistently use their illusory choice to choose the negative outcome. I think this is along the same lines as your question.

That is, indeed, what I'm saying. And here's the most simple and satisfying way I can explain it:

God is the Storyteller.

We are his characters.

It's as simple as that! He wrote some people to be heroes, others to be villians. Some comedy, some tragedy, some love, some loss. Because it takes all these things to write a compelling story. You can't have a story with just heroes and only good things happening.

I think that this view, more or less, lines up with the core ideas of the Christian God. And knowing that, in the best stories, the heroes always win in the end gives me comfort and peace in times of trouble. :)

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If we accept this as true, then our focus must shift to how we approach Evangelism. If we do accept that some go up and some go down, we should make sure that this view does not lead us into complacency and we begin to ignore our call to make disciples of ALL nations. Even if we accept that some go up and some go down, we don't know WHO will go and there are no outside markers to determine it. 

I also agree with you in that my view of God is that of a Storyteller. I don't believe that that is all that He is, but it is an understanding that is beneficial to me. Others may not find the comfort in that that you and I have. But, we must also remember that God reveals himself to us all in a myriad of ways. 

54 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

He wrote some people to be heroes, others to be villians. Some comedy, some tragedy, some love, some loss.

I'd like to talk about this statement for a bit. Is this a general statement that correlates with that we are saying, or is this an observation that you have seen in your own life and others?

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