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Predestination: An infallible argument?


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I just want to start out by saying that I'm not looking to cause a flame war. All I want is some constructive feedback.

Predestination is the idea that every single thing that happens only happens because God planned it that way. Every good AND bad thing that has happened it will happen is caused directly by God. Now, a lot of people disagree with the idea for Predestination. But I feel that I've found a logically sound, airtight argument for the idea that we have no freewill and God is directly responsible for every action you take. And I challenge anyone reading this to prove me wrong. Not because I want to prove how smart and superior I am. I honestly want someone to prove me wrong. Because this philosophy has brought me no joy.

Anyhoo, here's my argument stated as a series if premises:

  1. The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

  2. If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

  3. Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being.

  4. And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

  5. Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

 

I'm not interested in debating the “moral implications” of Predestination. I realize this means that every murder, rape, and tragic event has happened because God caused it to happen. Which is why I'm posting this. I want someone to point out the flaws in LOGIC, not morality. I already understand the moral flaw in this reasoning. Now I want the logical ones.

 

Thank you in advance for any comments. :)

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I have a friend who believes God has everyone's life planned out right from the start.  When he and his wife (who is a medical doctor) got married, they sang a song that started, "Before the world began, our union was His plan".  The part I have problems with, is if God has every single being on earth's life planned out from the very start, it contradicts the fact that the devil influences people to make bad choices that end them up in hell for all eternity.  It also shakes the core of a person's faith because faith is believing in God.  If God planned every nano-second of your life, then it's He who determines if you believe in him or not.  One other thing.  If God has your life planned out from birth to death, then he has picked and chosen who will commit murders of innocent people and therefore, that goes against his commandment of "Thou Shall Not Kill".  If you kill, you are condemned to hell for all eternity.  All that said, there would be nothing you could ever do to get yourself into Heaven because every second of your life has been planned out well in advance by God.  He is the one who is condemning people to hell.  If you trip over a curb, fall and break your nose, nothing you could have done about it to prevent it because God has determined that at that second of your life, you would trip over a curb, fall and break your nose.  Lets say you are backing your car out of your driveway, your 3 year old darts out from behind a tree and runs behind your car.  You run over her and kill her because you didn't see her.  I can't believe God would put that much grief on someone.   Logically, if God has 10 commandments everyone is to follow, if every part of your life has been planned out from the beginning, is it logical that God would make it so you would break his 10 commandments, his laws for how you are to live your life under God? 

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@rusty pins As I said, I already understand the moral implications of this philosophy. And that it contradicts a lot of things we know about God's character. (I may address my beliefs on Hell in another thread some day.)

But just because we don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true. If God wants a person killed or raped or struck with insurmountable sorrow, that is His prerogative to do so. Because he's God.

I have presented a logical argument. If you would like to debate it I ask that you point out which of the 5 premises is flawed.

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If that were the case, and I doubt it very much, the world would have hopefully turned out less dickered than it already is. If we were programmed by God from our inception through to our death it stands to reason that we would live more in direct accordance with the bible, and the rules set down therein. However, I do not believe this. For if this were a known truth we would not have "free will" as you stated, and all the pain and suffering that has been brought down upon us by ourselves through the ages was planned ahead of time.

This does not jive with the God I believe in. The God I believe in is an observer of us and our actions, and upon death we are judged by what we have or haven't down and are given the gift of heaven. God is not cruel enough to say we have free will, and then surreptitiously steal it away from us. I like to think that he watches us and does not interfere with our daily lives. 

Also, if all was preordained what was the point of his son Jesus being born as a man to die for our sins and grant us everlasting salvation through the acceptance of his word? If it was preordained then God would already have a list of people who were gong to heaven (precious few without Jesus) and who was gong to hell. If it was preordained sending Jesus to die for all the sins of man was a moot point, and this I cannot accept. 

God is everywhere he sees everything, but he does not stop us because we have free will. Free will to do good or ill by ourselves or others.    

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@Shotgun Diplomat Once again, that is an emotional response. You are missing the point entirely.

But to put it in a bigger context that perhaps some of you might understand, IF Predestination is true and there's no such thing as free will, it probably means there is no heaven or hell either. Because why would God reward or punish someone for simply following their programming?

It would mean we are all characters in the grand story God is trying to tell. A story needs more than just heroes. It also needs villians, victims, innocent bystanders who get caught in the crossfire, etc. When put into that perspective, it doesn't sound so bad, does it?

So let me state this again: If you're going to comment, please keep it on topic. Whatever you say must in some way relate to the 5 premises I stated above. That's all I'm interested in discussing in this thread.

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It may be a combination of predestination and free will, but one thing I'm sure of us that at least much of our lives are fated. Some have tried to explain it as God knowing what our choices will be before we make them, but that premise fails because that means we didn't really choose- we couldn't have if God were to have any part in this. Others simply refuse to address the matter by claiming that it's one of the mysteries of God, which is just being in denial of the obvious. I can't offer an explanation of the 'why' but I'm not stupid and I can clearly see what happens in my life and in the lives of others around me. And in those things where I didn't really have a choice, well either they are good things because God caused them to be or it's God's fault, not mine, and I will not accept responsibility for them.

Bettypooh

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest For the Love of God...

Hey man, whatever you’re imagining isn’t God. The Bible says God gave us free will. But you only wanted to discuss pure logic, so here it is: Your logic crumbles when you assert that because God *knows* everything, he also *controls* everything. Knowing everything is not the same as controlling everything. If I tell you “it’s going to rain tomorrow,” and you wake up the next day and it’s pouring, you wouldn’t assume I made it rain, would you? That would be illogical. Or if I told you that a certain character dies in a book you’re reading, are you going to ask me to autograph the dustjacket, since I must be the author? No, obviously not- you know, logically, that just because I knew those things were going to happen doesn’t mean that I had any hand in making them happen.

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Guest For the Love of God...

I will concede that it’s paradoxical and hard to wrap your head around, but that’s because you’re trying to apply logic to the metaphysical.

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7 minutes ago, Guest For the Love of God... said:

If I tell you “it’s going to rain tomorrow,” and you wake up the next day and it’s pouring, you wouldn’t assume I made it rain, would you?

That's true. But with God it is different because he did create the universe. He does cause it to rain. He did write the book.

If I point a loaded gun at you and pull the trigger, did the bullet choose to kill you? Or more accurately, if I designed a killer robot and sent it after you, would you blame the robot for attempting to murder you?

Of course not!

Same thing applies to God. When he knit you together in your mother's womb as the bible clearly states he did He knew the socioeconomic and political climate you would grow up in. Therefore he knew exactly how you would react to your environment when he made you.

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Because something is paradoxical or not easily understood is not a valid reason to cease thinking about it- indeed we have our minds and our intelligence so that we can think about these things because they are integral to having faith at higher levels. Those who do not explore their faith deeply can be easily misled and most of the time they are :o To believe something without reason is to be a gullible fool; to believe the same thing while knowing the reason and knowing why that reason is true is to be wise. If God knows the future then he controls it or he couldn't know it, and more to the point he's responsible for that because if he wanted it to be different he has the power cause that. So it becomes clear that he must want things that way or they would be different. And if we take that back in time, it also means that what has already happened was also of his doing ;) If you suppose it's that God simply knows what you will choose the same precept applies- he knew all that before your creation, and he created you regardless of what you would knowingly choose. So either you have no choices or with the choices you will make being known ahead of time there simply has to be pre-destination going on. And if there is pre-destination then who becomes responsible for it, the person with unessential;y no choice or the one who created that person? :rolleyes: 

My own position is that God who created all is responsible for all because he created it with full knowledge of what the ending would be when he did that. It cannot be any other way unless God didn't create all or God does not know all, unless perhaps God simply doesn't care what happens (which doesn't absolve him of the responsibility for it). No other explanations fit. If you think you have a better explanation then share it because I'd sure like for things to be better than this :whistling:

Bettypooh

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The OP and most of the respondents fail to get a proper understanding because they fail to fully understand the non-temporal nature of God. Unsurprisingly, we humans find it exceptionally difficult to think or act or conceive in a manner that excludes the temporal. Even when we consider notions like Eternity or an eternal God, we use time as a reference to our understanding. Predestination is a doctrine that is not wrong, but also far from correct because it assumes a temporal interpretation. And so here is the clue:

God does not merely see the future and the past. HE LITERALLY INHABITS ALL OF TIME all at once. He is there at the creation. He is there at your birth and He is there at your death - all at the same time. Jesus refers to Himself as the alpha and omega - the beginning and the end. Not the beginning OR the end, but both simultaneously. Even more powerful is that one of the most significant names of God is "I AM".   This is a name that transcends time. It is not merely a designation of immortality, but a statement that He is ALWAYS THERE, no matter when or where.

Giving us free will means we are free to screw up or to reject Him and most do that. God knows what will happen to you because He is there right now watching it.

Predestination is both mostly right and yet hopelessly inadequate in regards to the whole truth.

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On 5/24/2018 at 9:49 PM, rosalie.bent said:

Predestination is both mostly right and yet hopelessly inadequate in regards to the whole truth.

Predestination used to be the nearly universal doctrine of all Christian faiths a few hundred years ago :o In fact there are many things which have changed with Christian religions through the years. Organized faiths don't want you looking into the past because you might not like what you find :huh: IMHO most organized faiths (and moreso individual churches) have become more like political parties where any dissension from what they tell you to think and do is handled by shunning or expulsion. No discussion is allowed and even if you can show them where they are wrong, they will not accept that and change :(

It is the change in a person that marks their acceptance of faith, but organized religions will not change even when they are wrong. That speaks volumes about them and is why I advocate eschewing all of them and finding your faith on your own away from them. Only those who are led can be misled, so do not blindly follow any human if your intent is to follow God ;) We're all educated enough now to be able to read and understand what we read for ourselves B)

Bettypooh

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@rosalie.bent Thank you. Finally someone sees what I'm trying to say. :)

@Bettypooh Whoa whoa WHOA! When did I say anything about organized religion? You are chasing a rabbit trail that will quickly lead to a flame war. Which is exactly what I didn’t want! Well, I'm putting a stop to that right now!

This thread is NOT meant to advocate the evils or goods (goodnesses?) Of organized religion. Or even for talking about religion in general! Predestination is more of a Philosophical stand point than a religious one. But apparently you, Betty, lack the religious objectivity to discuss this matter rationally. So perhaps it would be best for you to move on to a different topic.

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14 hours ago, Bettypooh said:

Predestination used to be the nearly universal doctrine of all Christian faiths a few hundred years ago :o In fact there are many things which have changed with Christian religions through the years. Organized faiths don't want you looking into the past because you might not like what you find :huh: IMHO most organized faiths (and moreso individual churches) have become more like political parties where any dissension from what they tell you to think and do is handled by shunning or expulsion. No discussion is allowed and even if you can show them where they are wrong, they will not accept that and change :(

It is the change in a person that marks their acceptance of faith, but organized religions will not change even when they are wrong. That speaks volumes about them and is why I advocate eschewing all of them and finding your faith on your own away from them. Only those who are led can be misled, so do not blindly follow any human if your intent is to follow God ;) We're all educated enough now to be able to read and understand what we read for ourselves B)

Bettypooh

It doesnt sound like you've been around church for a long time and you might do to investigate it before making some of these rather wild claims.

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It's not a wild claim. This was the predominant teaching of all Protestant religions prior to ~1800 and some persisted longer. Also commonly taught then was that only a specific limited number of people would get to Heaven-not everybody was eligible for that and you couldn't know who was and who wasn't. This and many other things have changed over time because the organized sects came to realize that such as this limited their appeal to and power over the masses.

 

You are the one who needs to learn Rosalie, not me. You've not been taught your religion's history because it contradicts what they teach today. I've researched religious history right back to Martin Luther in an effort to better understand it and how we got here today. I found the truth and it ain't pretty which is what you fear finding. That would destroy your happy little world and I'll admit wasn't easy for to stomach either but it is the absolute unchanged truth no matter how 'wild' it seems to you. Look for yourself, look beyond what your Preacher was taught to tell you. It's all well documented and findable, but beware that the truth will shake you to your core.

Bettypooh

22 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

@rosalie.bent Thank you. Finally someone sees what I'm trying to say. :)

@Bettypooh Whoa whoa WHOA! When did I say anything about organized religion? You are chasing a rabbit trail that will quickly lead to a flame war. Which is exactly what I didn’t want! Well, I'm putting a stop to that right now!

This thread is NOT meant to advocate the evils or goods (goodnesses?) Of organized religion. Or even for talking about religion in general! Predestination is more of a Philosophical stand point than a religious one. But apparently you, Betty, lack the religious objectivity to discuss this matter rationally. So perhaps it would be best for you to move on to a different topic.

And without organized religion there would be no commonly held beliefs, no texts to read to garner such beliefs from, and therefore no 'faith' as the context is being used here. So I'm on topic of this thread when I show what shaped my own faith including my predestination beliefs and why. 

Bettypooh

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1 hour ago, Bettypooh said:

And without organized religion there would be no commonly held beliefs, no texts to read to garner such beliefs from, and therefore no 'faith' as the context is being used here. So I'm on topic of this thread when I show what shaped my own faith including my predestination beliefs and why. 

Bettypooh

Okay I can see that. However, it is certainly close to rabbit-trailing.

Let me see if I can sum up what you're saying about this particular topic: Because religion is corrupt, we should turn our back on all religious beliefs whatsoever including Predestination?

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Without really entering the debate, nor offering anything new, there are many essays, etc out there discussing determinism vs. free-will.  Most say free will is an illusion.

 

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The way I've come to see it is that God, being a rational, omnibenevolent, omnipotent being created what He considered to be the best possible universe. Now, this universe requires that things not only respect Him and work in His reverence, but also do so of their own free will. 

 

That said, that doesn't explain why God knows everything and how that's compatible with free will. How can there be freedoom of choice if everything is determined?

One answer I've been given to that question is that God knows everything because he knows how everything is. It's not that he so much predicts your future, as much as he understands your nature so well that he knows the choice you'll make with your own free will before you make it. You could have chosen to do so in another way, but you simply didn't. Combine that with God's omnipresence in time and space alike and what you get is a being that simply knows everything.

 

Another possibility, a bit more outlandish, is one based on parallel dimensions. The idea that, perhaps there is an infinite amount of universes, containing every single possible timeline for the world. If God is the same being existing in all of them, then it's simply a matter of responding to each timeline differently. So, nomatter what your choice is, there is already a planned response so to speak.

 

In the end of the day, being able to reason about the exact nature of God, a being that by definition surpasses everything we could conceive can never be done in complete certainty. That said, I think it is a noble effort of you to try to tackle these issues and really take in the perspectives provided by others.

 

I recommend reading a book named "The Screwtape Letters", written by C.S. Lewis , as it is both a great book written in a very interesting an unnusual style , but it also adresses many topics about religion in a nuanced and intelligent way. The book is about an apprentice demon being taught via letters to tempt a human, and the book uses a sort of ironic tone due to that premise to discuss matters of religion, specifically the christian faith.

 

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44 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

I recommend reading a book named "The Screwtape Letters", written by C.S. Lewis , as it is both a great book written in a very interesting an unnusual style , but it also adresses many topics about religion in a nuanced and intelligent way. The book is about an apprentice demon being taught via letters to tempt a human, and the book uses a sort of ironic tone due to that premise to discuss matters of religion, specifically the christian faith.

I have read the Screwtape Letters. I even listened to the audio drama version where Screwtape is voiced by Andy Serkis (which is AMAZING!) ♡♡♡

47 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

One answer I've been given to that question is that God knows everything because he knows how everything is. It's not that he so much predicts your future, as much as he understands your nature so well that he knows the choice you'll make with your own free will before you make it.

But since God knew that WHEN he created you, it means he programmed you to act exactly the way you would. If he wanted you to act differently he would've designed you different. But since you aren't different from ehat you are that means God created you to do everything the way that you would and will. Ergo no Free Will.

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10 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

But since God knew that WHEN he created you, it means he programmed you to act exactly the way you would. If he wanted you to act differently he would've designed you different. But since you aren't different from ehat you are that means God created you to do everything the way that you would and will. Ergo no Free Will.

This is why I mentioned the creating the universe in the best way possible. God doesn't, to my knowledge, so much create each individual piece, as He simply created the mechanisms. Sure those mechanisms eventually led to you and your existence and He still loves you just as much nonetheless.

 

Now, you could argue "but hey, isn't just having a nature at all proof that I don't have free will?" and the answer is no. For the very simple reason that you cannot disassociate your person with your nature. If who you are chose a certain outcome, then you choose it, you and your will choose it. Whether "you" is a soul, a collection of chemicals or whatever, if YOU choose it, then you have free will.

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24 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

This is why I mentioned the creating the universe in the best way possible. God doesn't, to my knowledge, so much create each individual piece, as He simply created the mechanisms. Sure those mechanisms eventually led to you and your existence and He still loves you just as much nonetheless.

You are once again missing the point. When he created those mechanisms which "eventually led to you," He knew EXACTLY what the outcome would be. Meaning your path was determined long before creation even existed.

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41 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

You are once again missing the point. When he created those mechanisms which "eventually led to you," He knew EXACTLY what the outcome would be. Meaning your path was determined long before creation even existed.

You are missing the point too. Yes, your path was "determined" long before you existed, but this does not eliminate free will because the one to "determine" this path was none other than you in all present moments of your life.

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21 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

You are missing the point too. Yes, your path was "determined" long before you existed, but this does not eliminate free will because the one to "determine" this path was none other than you in all present moments of your life.

I see what you're saying, but you're not grasping the ramifications of the situation I've presented. Allow me to quote myself:

On 5/21/2018 at 8:46 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

If I point a loaded gun at you and pull the trigger, did the bullet choose to kill you? Or more accurately, if I designed a killer robot and sent it after you, would you blame the robot for attempting to murder you?

Of course not!

Same thing applies to God. When he knit you together in your mother's womb as the bible clearly states he did He knew the socioeconomic and political climate you would grow up in. Therefore he knew exactly how you would react to your environment when he made you.

 

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26 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I see what you're saying, but you're not grasping the ramifications of the situation I've presented. Allow me to quote myself:

1. The bullet is not conscious of it's own actions

2.The bullet did not move itself. In what you are talking, of shooting the bullet, nothing about it matches the kind of situation humanity lives on. We choose to move our bodies, and the thing that makes that decision is in our identity, it is independent from any outside force. Whereas a bullet does not shoot you because in no step of the shooting (other than the finger moving to pull the trigger) is there a moment where the bullet can decide to go or not go.  Other than who we are, we pretty much decide it all about ourselves and our actions.

3. The Bible is written in poetry for a nice chunk of it. Not to mention written in a 2000 years ago+ context. Yes, the Bible and it's message is true, but at least as far as I believe (and thus as far as is pertinent to the points I am making) most of it is simply not literal. 

4. The socioeconomic environment does not define you. It helps mold your perspective but it is not a definitive 1 to 1 cause. You have freedom of choice in how you let things affect you, and how you react to them etc... Sure, you have an inherent nature about you that you cannot control, but as previously mentioned that is irrelevant because that nature is who you are or part of you who are, therefore it logically does not need to choose itself for you to have free will.  

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7 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

1. The bullet is not conscious of it's own actions

  2.The bullet did not move itself. In what you are talking, of shooting the bullet, nothing about it matches the kind of situation humanity lives on. We choose to move our bodies, and the thing that makes that decision is in our identity, it is independent from any outside force. Whereas a bullet does not shoot you because in no step of the shooting (other than the finger moving to pull the trigger) is there a moment where the bullet can decide to go or not go.  Other than who we are, we pretty much decide it all about ourselves and our actions.

I realize that a bullet isn't conscious. It was meant as a metaphor. God is so powerful and wise that, even though we're the most complex organisms in existence, to him we are as simple as machines to an engineer. He "points us" and "pulls the trigger" by creating us, sending us on the path he decided.

10 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

3. The Bible is written in poetry for a nice chunk of it. Not to mention written in a 2000 years ago+ context. Yes, the Bible and it's message is true, but at least as far as I believe (and thus as far as is pertinent to the points I am making) most of it is simply not literal. 

So you don't believe God created you atom by atom? That he has no control over how you turned out? That would make God a short-sighted Anarchist who doesn't care about his creation at all. A "Big kid with a Magnifying glass" so to speak. Which does NOT line up with the Bible or reality as we know it.

14 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

4. The socioeconomic environment does not define you. It helps mold your perspective but it is not a definitive 1 to 1 cause.

As I established in my Axioms above:

On 5/6/2018 at 4:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:
  • The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture. 

The "Socioeconomic Environment" is what I meant by "Nurture." And as we've already established, God controls the Nature. So unless there's some mysterious 3rd element to our Being then that means God has set us on our fixed paths from which we are powerless to stray.

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