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Predestination: An infallible argument?


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I've been through this mess in my spiritual life. After living under the teachings of many major league denominations, I have come to think that none of them gets it all 100% right, and we will all be quite surprised when we get to heaven. The issue of PREDESTINATION is one of those little issues. At least on the big issue of Grace, we all are rather close.

I was raised Lutheran (Misery Synod). Born on a Sunday, my mother dreamed I would become a pastor. Then I married a Methodist, and spent decades in that church. The pastor who married us was Methodist (UMC), and he was a very well respected local guru on spiritual matters. While in HS, I worked at a local radio station and would assist him when he came in to tape his daily tidbits that would go out on the airwaves. Mr.s WetDad and I spent many years attending UMC churches, although we did try a Baptist church for several years because it was closer to our house, and had a good choir we could join. Then we went back to Methodism, and helped found a new congregation, where I was their Lay Leader for 9 years. Then we joined a Presbyterian church start, and my wife and I )eventually) became ordained deacons. We found when doing a deep search of Presbyterianism that the big difference between that and Methodism is the issue of "predestination". In the UMC church, we believe that we are in complete control; that God made us with independent minds, able to control our own destiny. Now the Presbys believe that we are "pre-ordained" and so no matter what we do, we cannot alter the outcome of our destiny.

So what am I trying to say here? Only that through my long and colorful time across many churches in the US, UK Greece, etc. that I have come to the conclusion that no church gets it right 100%. Although a devout Christian by faith, I am still considering getting ordained in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I have met enough charlatans through the years, and well... oh never mind. Keep your faith sound, remain close to a network of brothers and sisters who are of a like mind, and hopefully, your church service schedules won't conflict too much with NFL, fishing, or whatever else you do.

Cheers

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Calvinist predestination, for my money, is self-defeating. If Christ came and died for only a fraction of the human species, what would the point be for one to serve God with all their heart and soul but still wind up in Hell because you were never supposed to be redeemed?

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1 hour ago, MistyPines said:

What they demonstrate, in summary, is that what information exists and what information doesn't depends on what measurements are made. The idea that the information may exist but be hidden / unmeasurable has been experimentally invalidated. There's a lot to dig into for details of how this was accomplished, but a good place to start is Bell's Theorem
Long story short, uncertainty is a fundamental feature of reality, not only a restriction on what can practically be measured.

I'll look into it when I get a chance. Up until now I've discredited the idea that God "doesn't know" anything because that's illogical. But if Uncertainty itself is built into the fabric of reality, that's an entirely different story.

Thank you for participating in this discussion with us. :)

1 hour ago, WetDad said:

I've been through this mess in my spiritual life. After living under the teachings of many major league denominations, I have come to think that none of them gets it all 100% right, and we will all be quite surprised when we get to heaven. The issue of PREDESTINATION is one of those little issues. At least on the big issue of Grace, we all are rather close.

I was raised Lutheran (Misery Synod). Born on a Sunday, my mother dreamed I would become a pastor. Then I married a Methodist, and spent decades in that church. The pastor who married us was Methodist (UMC), and he was a very well respected local guru on spiritual matters. While in HS, I worked at a local radio station and would assist him when he came in to tape his daily tidbits that would go out on the airwaves. Mr.s WetDad and I spent many years attending UMC churches, although we did try a Baptist church for several years because it was closer to our house, and had a good choir we could join. Then we went back to Methodism, and helped found a new congregation, where I was their Lay Leader for 9 years. Then we joined a Presbyterian church start, and my wife and I )eventually) became ordained deacons. We found when doing a deep search of Presbyterianism that the big difference between that and Methodism is the issue of "predestination". In the UMC church, we believe that we are in complete control; that God made us with independent minds, able to control our own destiny. Now the Presbys believe that we are "pre-ordained" and so no matter what we do, we cannot alter the outcome of our destiny.

So what am I trying to say here? Only that through my long and colorful time across many churches in the US, UK Greece, etc. that I have come to the conclusion that no church gets it right 100%. Although a devout Christian by faith, I am still considering getting ordained in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I have met enough charlatans through the years, and well... oh never mind. Keep your faith sound, remain close to a network of brothers and sisters who are of a like mind, and hopefully, your church service schedules won't conflict too much with NFL, fishing, or whatever else you do.

Cheers

Don't worry about my Faith. I assure you I recognize that the issue of Predestination vs Freewill is ultimately not all that consequential. But it's always good to question the more troublesome aspects of our beliefs. :)

Also you should totally become a Priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. :D

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1 hour ago, DLClayMongoose said:

Calvinist predestination, for my money, is self-defeating. If Christ came and died for only a fraction of the human species, what would the point be for one to serve God with all their heart and soul but still wind up in Hell because you were never supposed to be redeemed?

Exactly. And that's one of the bigger reasons I started this thread: To get people thinking about the TRUE implications Predestination entails. After all, if you're going to say God is in control of every thing, that means both the good AND the bad. Every rape, murder, and suicide would be at his direct behest. And that's something pretty much nobody is willing to accept.

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3 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I'll look into it when I get a chance. Up until now I've discredited the idea that God "doesn't know" anything because that's illogical. But if Uncertainty itself is built into the fabric of reality, that's an entirely different story.

Thank you for participating in this discussion with us. :)

Glad I could help. ? Reality is far more subtle than it appears; it is all too easy to make incorrect (yet seemingly obvious) inferences about it which lead to depressing conclusions.

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On 1/10/2020 at 9:19 AM, Wannatripbaby said:

I thought this was implicit in the argument, but this topic Assumes the existence of God or some god-like being. Obviously if you don't believe in God you cannot believe in Predestination.

If you want to debate the existence of God, that would be a separate discussion to have before this one. Otherwise we aren't even capable of discussing this topic as our viewpoints are too dissimilar. It would be like 2 blind people debating what the best shade of blue is.

Well that's the problem, while I never hear the term "infallible truth" thrown around much, it implies belief is irrelevant. I just laid out the evidence. You can believe what you want, but then evidence is irrelevant. You can't have it both ways.

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I think god may have simply set up the pins and he may know what will happen which in a way it’s predestined but to be honest that doesn’t mean we have no free will it just means our free will is predictable by god our choices are our own even if the were predetermined I guess that’s not debunking your point lol but it is a way of understanding that predestined does not mean that we don’t have free will I guess?

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Redemption from sin comes from Salvation and our belief in Jesus Christ as our (MY) personal Lord and Savior. God wants everyone to be in heaven, but He also knows there will be people who will reject the gift of salvation, and for that they will spend an eternity separated from God. Whether it be Hell, or a Lake Of Fire, or just the separation from our Maker it will not be good by any means. The descriptions of the place people that do not accept God's gift is described vividly in the Bible as a place or a burning unquenchable thirst, and gnawing and gnashing of teeth with no rest. 

 

The Bible’s answer

The lake of fire is a symbol of eternal destruction. It is the same as Gehenna, but it is different from hell, which is the common grave of mankind.

Not a literal lake

The five Bible verses that mention “the lake of fire” show it to be a symbol rather than a literal lake. (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8) The following are cast into the lake of fire:

A symbol of eternal destruction

The Bible says that the lake of fire “means the second death.” (Revelation 20:14; 21:8) The first kind of death mentioned in the Bible resulted from Adam’s sin. This death can be reversed by resurrection and will eventually be eliminated by God.—1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 26.

There is no release from the symbolic lake of fire

The lake of fire represents a different, or second, kind of death. Although it too represents a state of total inactivity, it is different in that the Bible says nothing about a resurrection from the second death. For example, the Bible says that Jesus has “the keys of hell and of death,” showing that he has the authority to release people from the death brought by Adam’s sin. (Revelation 1:18; 20:13, King James Version) 

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Redemption from sin comes from Salvation and our belief in Jesus Christ as our (MY) personal Lord and Savior. God wants everyone to be in heaven, but He also knows there will be people who will reject the gift of salvation, and for that they will spend an eternity separated from God. Whether it be Hell, or a Lake Of Fire, or just the separation from our Maker it will not be good by any means. The descriptions of the place people that do not accept God's gift is described vividly in the Bible as a place or a burning unquenchable thirst, and gnawing and gnashing of teeth with no rest. 
 

The Bible’s answer

The lake of fire is a symbol of eternal destruction. It is the same as Gehenna, but it is different from hell, which is the common grave of mankind.

Not a literal lake

The five Bible verses that mention “the lake of fire” show it to be a symbol rather than a literal lake. (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8) The following are cast into the lake of fire:

A symbol of eternal destruction

The Bible says that the lake of fire “means the second death.” (Revelation 20:14; 21:8) The first kind of death mentioned in the Bible resulted from Adam’s sin. This death can be reversed by resurrection and will eventually be eliminated by God.—1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 26.

There is no release from the symbolic lake of fire

The lake of fire represents a different, or second, kind of death. Although it too represents a state of total inactivity, it is different in that the Bible says nothing about a resurrection from the second death. For example, the Bible says that Jesus has “the keys of hell and of death,” showing that he has the authority to release people from the death brought by Adam’s sin. (Revelation 1:18; 20:13King James Version


Big fan of the Dante’s inferno caricature of hell and Christianity.


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On 1/20/2020 at 4:19 AM, Joe from longisland said:

I think god may have simply set up the pins and he may know what will happen which in a way it’s predestined but to be honest that doesn’t mean we have no free will it just means our free will is predictable by god our choices are our own even if they were predetermined I guess that’s not debunking your point lol but it is a way of understanding that predestined does not mean that we don’t have free will I guess?

That's actually completely mutually exclusive.

Read what you wrote and think about it properly.

"our choices are our own even if they were predetermined"

If someone's "choice" is predetermined (by some external agent), it's NOT REALLY THEIR CHOICE - only an illusion of choice.

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1 hour ago, DiapersOfTheStorm said:

That's actually completely mutually exclusive.

Read what you wrote and think about it properly.

"our choices are our own even if they were predetermined"

If someone's "choice" is predetermined (by some external agent), it's NOT REALLY THEIR CHOICE - only an illusion of choice.

The Bible tells us God knows our thoughts before we even do. That tells me He knows what we're going to do, so it is predestined.

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On 5/6/2018 at 4:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

I just want to start out by saying that I'm not looking to cause a flame war. All I want is some constructive feedback.

Predestination is the idea that every single thing that happens only happens because God planned it that way. Every good AND bad thing that has happened it will happen is caused directly by God. Now, a lot of people disagree with the idea for Predestination. But I feel that I've found a logically sound, airtight argument for the idea that we have no freewill and God is directly responsible for every action you take. And I challenge anyone reading this to prove me wrong. Not because I want to prove how smart and superior I am. I honestly want someone to prove me wrong. Because this philosophy has brought me no joy.

Anyhoo, here's my argument stated as a series if premises:

  1. The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

  2. If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

  3. Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being.

  4. And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

  5. Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

 

I'm not interested in debating the “moral implications” of Predestination. I realize this means that every murder, rape, and tragic event has happened because God caused it to happen. Which is why I'm posting this. I want someone to point out the flaws in LOGIC, not morality. I already understand the moral flaw in this reasoning. Now I want the logical ones.

 

Thank you in advance for any comments. :)

Not sure If I can help you since you said the philosophy of predestination has brought you no joy, but I will try.

#1 seems pretty solid. Thought about for a while but I can accept that.

#2 can be debatable depending on the type of god (or gods) you spiritually believe in. Some gods are all knowing, all powerful, all influencing, and omnipresent while other could be simple people like you and I. If you believe that you live in a post-scarcity kardishev 2 civilization where every person has to have a mandatory virtual reality experience of a 21st century life so the people don't become spoiled brats then the god is either the system running the simulation or the person for which the simulation is created and everyone but that person is a bunch of NPCs. In this instance, theirs a change our universe doesn't have an all knowing god (although i'm not sure I could have missed something). Its hard to know anything with 100% accuracy if you are not all-knowing

#3 That could be a fair assumption to have. Whenever you draw you start with a blank canvas and you have to micromanage each to make a picture. when you write a song its the same thing (sounds more daunting than it really is I know =3), but theres one thing that each creator I have, including myself, understands; Its not 100% perfect and we see the mistakes. If my assumption from #2 has any validity and there are different kinds of gods then some gods will feel the same way making a human mind. Maybe making a brain and it's psychology is far harder than we take for granted for and god is dissatisfied with half the people created (not that these people arn't wrong god just made a mistake) and these people are your assholes, murderers, rapists, psychopaths even mentally disabled. Sure god controlled the natural aspect but its not what was intended.

Maybe the creation is a physics framework and the natural aspect of this is mostly random chance based off the framework of the physics. In this instance god could even have indefinite knowledge to create a really in-depth complicated baseline framework for everything and its completely perfect, but since the whole point of the frame is that it grows on its own after a few interventions (like the big bang) and that it is entirely random there isn't a destiny even if god can predict every outcome all the way to the end since he has indefinite knowledge (wouldn't matter that much anyway with this assumption since the only difference between predestination and a random chance universe with a god that knows all the outcomes is the intention. Maybe if god has predicted 5 different results for one event where a choice is made vs god just makes one of the choices out of the 5.)

Hell you can assume god has no intentions and the creation is a fart. =3

#4 requires the assumption of an all knowing and all influencing god. Like I said before if god is an average Joe or the universe is built off of random chance then god does't have full control of nature or full knowledge of the creation. Another thing I thought (that could be thrown into #3) is that god has the power to form and destroy the universe but doesn't have the knowledge of all things or even, somehow, forgot they were god when they threw themselves into there own creation as a form of regression for fun (god may have all the power but no knowledge or influence to use it).

#5 Looks like this argument needs a few assumptions from the other arguments to work such as the idea of perfect programming or control.

I know I rambled on for a while about this, but it looks like the idea of predestination needs a couple assumptions about the god we are talking about or how the universe is structured. A random chance universe may look predestined if you look at the insane odds required for earth to exist in its current form or how I was born in the 21st century from a c-section and then needed surgery to my stomach after being a few months old because a block in my stomach prevented me from eating (I could have easily failed as a person multiple times yet here I am =)). In a random chance universe people who don't know the future only history and the present look back at the past and are aghast at how coincidental some results are and are convinced it is predestination because it seems too good to be true (not saying random chance is the real belief system just an example).

I don't know what to say to besides that there is a massive diversity of different spiritual systems you can adapt and even ones you can make up. I believe you can be spiritual without being religious. So this may sound corny; but you can choose to believe you have choice even if, to a predestinationalist, that sounds insane.

If I can't convince you out of predestination then I believe you should still act as if you have free will since even if you have a destination, you have to muddle your way through choices in life where you will feel the effect of those choices even if those choices are illusions. I still grown and bitch about writing papers or selecting classes or applying for jobs even if I'm predestined to a certain outcome because I feel the impact of the choice. And if heaven or hell exists I wouldn't worry about that since your predestined to one of those anyway (I can't see how heaven or hell as moral frameworks exist in a universe where there is no room for choice and therefor morality) Just act like a good person and you will be fine =3.

Not sure if this helps "refute" the argument (not even sure if this is even rational XD), but if this philosophy is bringing you dread then why not try to find an alternative?

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@MellowYellow welcome to the party! *Hands you a party hat* :D

I see where you're coming from. And the problem is that we're starting from too-dissimilar places. A question like "What is Free Will" is complicated enough that you must first establish your beliefs about the universe as a whole before tackling it. Otherwise it's like trying to co-author a book without establishing what language to write it in. The pre-assumptions about God and the Universe establish the language we can use to try to parse out the answers to the question.

To put it another way, this question by design pre-assumes the existence on a Monotheistic, All-Knowing God such as the Christian God. That's not a flaw in the argument. That is a necessary preface. Now you can argue that the assumptions are wrong, but that is a separate discussion. One that has, like this one, been going on for millennia and will likely continue long after we are gone.

Although you did hit one nail squarely on the head:

4 hours ago, MellowYellow said:

If I can't convince you out of predestination then I believe you should still act as if you have free will

This. This is undeniably true. And I've said this several times throughout this thread, but it's a well-established and provable fact that--regardless of the universal truth about freewill--as soon as you start treating yourself or others as if their choices don't matter, Bad Things Happen!!! 

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2 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

The pre-assumptions about God and the Universe establish the language we can use to try to parse out the answers to the question.

To be honest, if we assume god has a plan that micromanages all things and the means to carry out the plan perfectly then the answer is there is no refutation to predestinationalism.

I was talking to a christian friend a few hours ago about death and the afterlife and one of the things he said to me is he doesn't have to worry about anything like that. Because of the framework of his faith there isn't any unknowns. I realized after he was referring to the concept of predestination and the tranquility it brings to some Christians. It seems like Predestination is directly built into the faith and refuting it requires refuting the faith (as far as I know i'm not all that good at this). 

You will need to build a christian framework in which god doesn't have a plan or isn't all knowing, powerful and omnipresent.

 

P.S sorry for not reading the previous posts before I realized alot of the stuff I covered before were already covered in previous posts.

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13 minutes ago, MellowYellow said:

To be honest, if we assume god has a plan that micromanages all things and the means to carry out the plan perfectly then the answer is there is no refutation to predestinationalism.

I was talking to a christian friend a few hours ago about death and the afterlife and one of the things he said to me is he doesn't have to worry about anything like that. Because of the framework of his faith there isn't any unknowns. I realized after he was referring to the concept of predestination and the tranquility it brings to some Christians. It seems like Predestination is directly built into the faith and refuting it requires refuting the faith (as far as I know i'm not all that good at this). 

You will need to build a christian framework in which god doesn't have a plan or isn't all knowing, powerful and omnipresent.

That was actually part of the reason I made this post so long ago. I wanted to draw attention to the fact that accepting the idea of an All-Knowing, All-Powerful God comes with certain ramifications that you can't just ignore. If we believe Predestination is true, then we have to believe that every tragedy, every murder, every rape, every child dying of cancer, etc. Happened because God, for better or worse, wanted it to happen. What does that mean for our faith? Can a God who would create such a cruel world even be considered "good"? What about heaven and hell? How can God punish OR reward someone for eternity if their actions were pre-ordained by him?

These are all very big and important questions whose answers are directly tied to the problem of Predestination vs. Freewill.

 

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13 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

If we believe Predestination is true, then we have to believe that every tragedy, every murder, every rape, every child dying of cancer, etc. Happened because God, for better or worse, wanted it to happen. What does that mean for our faith? Can a God who would create such a cruel world even be considered "good"? What about heaven and hell? How can God punish OR reward someone for eternity if their actions were pre-ordained by him?

Not to veer off topic but concepts like death were constructed by god. Not just the actions, but the tools needed to create cruelty even the idea was created by god.

On a more personal level, I have always wanted to be apart of a spiritual... thing? with people for a while now so I used to turn to Christians because I respect the sociological effect Christianity has on the family (most of it) and I always found the faith wanting due to potholes like this. It sucks because I could never sign on to atheism, but I could never sign on to any faith with so many inconsistencies especially in morality. 

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7 hours ago, MellowYellow said:

Not to veer off topic but concepts like death were constructed by god. Not just the actions, but the tools needed to create cruelty even the idea was created by god.

On a more personal level, I have always wanted to be apart of a spiritual... thing? with people for a while now so I used to turn to Christians because I respect the sociological effect Christianity has on the family (most of it) and I always found the faith wanting due to potholes like this. It sucks because I could never sign on to atheism, but I could never sign on to any faith with so many inconsistencies especially in morality. 

Yeah, tackling those issues would definitely require straying from the topic of this thread. ?

If you do want someone to talk to about this stuff feel free to PM me. I can't guarantee I'll be able to help, but I'll certainly do my best. :)

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On 1/25/2020 at 4:38 AM, MellowYellow said:

Not to veer off topic but concepts like death were constructed by god. Not just the actions, but the tools needed to create cruelty even the idea was created by god.

On a more personal level, I have always wanted to be apart of a spiritual... thing? with people for a while now so I used to turn to Christians because I respect the sociological effect Christianity has on the family (most of it) and I always found the faith wanting due to potholes like this. It sucks because I could never sign on to atheism, but I could never sign on to any faith with so many inconsistencies especially in morality. 

God is NEVER inconsistent, EVER. It is man that confounds, confuses, and tries to bring God down to His level, by attempting to justify his behaviors in the light of religion, and religious acceptance. God has never strayed from who He is, or what He is to man. He is our Creator, and He wants us to be with Him, that is why He sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. Gandhi was asked onetime why he didn't choose Christianity instead of the path he chose. His reply was that there were too many inconsistencies with Christians, and their religion. That saddens me since we are here to worship God, with all our hearts, minds and soul, and to strive to be as Christ. That's what Christian means, "To be Christ like." But, many are judgmental, and pias toward anyone, or anything that isn't aligned with our beliefs which is sad because many people look at Christian religion and make the same conclusion Gandhi did.

Jesus said, "Love one another, as I have loved you." The greatest gift we can give anyone is "Love". Sin takes many forms from morality, to bias racial injustice, to religious persecution. We have people that want us dead. Other people reject us because they think we act mightier then they are. We need to learn to Serve Free of inhibition, Worship free of self, and to love our fellow human beings. But the deceiver and his minions want us to be divided, persecute each other, and find faults in others, instead of looking inward and striving to me more Christ like we compare ourselves not to Christ, but to each other by saying, "Well, I'm not as bad as (insert name) so therefore (insert action) and instead we should all say, "Am I living each and moment of my life striving to be more like Christ, and if I am, are other people seeing Him, or me in my daily life?"

Stop worrying our Predestination, Pre/post rapture and anything and everything else and center your life around My Lord and Personal Savior, "Jesus Christ." Each and every day strive to be more like Christ in everything you do, say, and act upon. We aren't perfect, but if we just grant one person every day an act of Christ like favor, maybe, just maybe one a time we can make the world a better place for everyone to live, and enjoy. This isn't our final destination, it's a resting point in the journey into eternity with our Creator, Master, and Savior for all eternity. Not 10, or 100 years, or even a 1,000...but hymns we sang in church say, "When we've been there ten-thousand years, we have no less days to sing God's praise, than when we first begun."  

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